Why teaching nonsense makes sense

Dave Bartlett

There seems to be a problem with the Noel Malcolm link. I think The Origins of English Nonsense is what was intended.

Unfortunately, I can't check my own link, because Coffee House's comment script doesn't offer a 'preview' option. Curses!

Herbert Thornton

I heartily agree with the article. Nonsense verse appeals immensely to children and so, when I was a boy, did much-despised weekly comics like the Beano. They all improved children's literacy more effectively than did many dry-as-dust, boring teachers and compulsory, rote memorisation of verse about wandering lonely as a cloud.

I think nonsense verse awakens in very young children an unconscious fascination with rhythm in our language and the feelings that it can convey. So for that matter can other verse. I remember, as quite a young boy reading Dreaming John of Grafton and it presented me with a profound sense of the essence of England that I had not experienced before. I read it again and again. And later, even though I had no understanding of American history or of America, other than that it was on the other side of the Atlantic, "Up from the meadows rich with corn, Cool in the clear September morn" impelled me to read about Barbara Frietchie again and again.

All this leads me to a rather disturbing thoughts about the power of language. Hitler for example used language to mesmerise his listeners, to the point where they became devotees of Naziism.

I understand that Arabic is particularly suited to expressing ideas in a sort of poetic form that has an profoundly strong appeal to it's listeners and readers. Is Arabic a language that easily displaces reason and substitutes emotion? It makes me wonder if it is this that accounts for the hold that Islam has over its adherents.

Islam outside the Arabic speaking world also seems to give much attention to the use of language. I understand that theological teaching in Iran for instance includes the study of rhetoric. Perhaps we have something to learn from this that would benefit our own educational system?

Frank Pulley

Herbert You indicated your advanced years on another thread; perhaps this might interest you: http://www.sinclair-family.org.uk/castleriley/paternal/thornton/hthornton.htm

Herbert Thornton

Frank - Yes that's interesting, but I don't know of any connection to the people mentioned. There were vague references by my aunts to some Thornton relatives who had gone to Canada in the 1800s I think, but nothing else about them. Slightly more specific was their story of one of my father's uncles, Uncle Harry, also a Thornton, who, as they put it, "ran away with a woman from Liverpool". The only other detail I have about Uncle Harry is that he was immensely strong. Apparently one night, after emerging from a pub in Garstang, he was crossing the bridge over the River Wyre, singing loudly, and there he encountered a policeman. The policeman told him he was drunk and disorderly and said he was taking Uncle Harry into custody. Uncle Harry disagreed with that idea, and seized the policeman by jacket collar and the seat of his pants, lifted him up, and held him at arms' length over the parapet of the bridge, above the river. Policemen were big men in those days so you can guess how strong Uncle Harry was. Uncle Harry then calmly enquired whether the policeman remained of the same mind. The policeman allowed that he had changed his mind, so Uncle Harry set him on his feet again. And that disposed of the matter.

I think life must have been much more robustly sensible in those days.

Frank Leader

They could of course read the other nonsense. The Nu Labour manifesto. It would make Alice in Wonderland seem quite logical.

Fergus Pickering

I don't know about Arabic but English is a splendid language for displacing reason. It is, after all, the language of advertising as well as of nonsense and poetry, none of which has much to do with reason. French, on the other hand... Speaking for myself I've always distrusted reason, but then I'm an English speaker (my French is bad). I think you should trust what you feel and not let yourself be argued out of it by clever fellows who can prove black is white. That great man David Hume agreed with me I think.

Cogito Ergosum

I have to disagree with Fergus Pickering "Trust what you feel". One really should poke about into the facts, weigh them up logically, and if necessary suspend judgement.

Having said that, one can suspect that an argument is wrong even if one cannot currently prove it. This is what motivates further examination. Dr. Johnson remarked that you can silence a man with argument, but that does not mean you have convinced him.

Fergus Pickering

But, Cogito, facts are not hard edged weighty things. They are light as air and they shift about and look different in a different light. Wordsworth, said Oscar Wilde, found the seromns in stones he had previously placed there. Or words to that effect. As soon as he opened his mouth I KNEW Blair was not to be trusted. The feeling came first. The facts that showed I was right came afterwards.

Pauline Gately

When my daughter was a baby and son was four I kept us all entertained by reciting Edward Lear whil feeding. Even baby grinned and gurgled in all the right places, apparently at some level appreciating the humour of the sounds and the rhythms. Said baby developed a passion for the other Lear and Shakespeare in general and both took English to University level and loved it. Spot on, Matthew!