Whither should we turn - America or Europe?

Tiberius

Only the self-indulgent or defeatist would see Europe as our primary defence force. Consider a doomsday scenario, such as a future British civil war between Islamist and Kafir. EDF or GI? Close call, isn't it.

Philip Porter

Liam Fox should be out there selling the Lisbon Treaty and especially the amendment inserting a new Article 28A(7)(second sub para) into the Treaty on European Union: “Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation.’ philip_porter25@hotmail.com

David Lindsay

European federalism has been an American-sponsored project since the Forties.

Herbert Thornton

Liam Fox's observation that Britain cannot have two best friends was doubtless worded very diplomatically, but it hid the truth that the real choice is not between two best friends, but between a tried and true best friend and a number of unreliable and morally weakened near neighbours.

Tiberius' doomsday scenario of a future British civil war is far from unimaginable. It is, moreover, one in which the near neighbours could well either be engulfed in a civil war themselves, or have already aligned themselves with the Islamists.

It may sound morbidly pessimistic, but imagine an even more frightening scenario of a U.S. becoming undermined and weakened by political correctness, that even it, our best friend, loses the will to intervene in our civil war. To whom could we then turn? I suggest that then, the only answer would be Russia.

Things are nowhere near that stage yet, and it is to be hoped that they never will be, but surely Britain ought to consider whether the current anti-Russian paranoia is either justified or in our own best interests.

Bob

This is a moronic debate. Which country in the world has only one alliance to the exclusion of all others? The US has multiple alliances. Nixon had deals with China. Grow up, Fox, and join the real world.

TGF UKIP

Wow, where to start! Tiberius I entirely agree with you and Herbert Thornton with you until the bit about Russia. Indeed, the main reason I think the europeans are stupidly irresponsible in seeking to detach the US from Europe is the long term menace Russia holds for the rest of the continent. Not yet, perhaps with Russia emerging from a period of Cold War weakness, but even with its population loss Russia will still be in a decade or so's time the most populous country in Europe as well, with its enormous mineral wealth, one of the richest. As regards its military and territorial ambitions, George Kennan's admonitions that Russia always was, is and will be a paranoid bully and that the Cold War Soviets didn't behave the way they did because they were communists but because they were Russians, still hold good today. As for the Fox speech - GREAT! Then when you put it into the context of Dave's obsequious sucking up to Merkel, his wet liberal europhile foreign and defence policy speech in Berlin, and his pledge to continue with Labour's underfunding of the Armed Forces, the question inevitably arises again. How can Liam Fox remain a member of this Shadow Cabinet.

Max Kaye

In a time of crisis, resolute and effective action from a European Defence Force is about as likely as resolute and effective action from Eunuch attempting to placate Valeria Messalina's appetites.

TGF UKIP

Max Kaye, an absolute classic, I'm still laughing! David Lindsay, what you say is true but out of date. Dean Acheson, may have been the founding father of the EU as much as Jean Monnet was, if not more, but the US particularly this Administration has "wised up" especially when the French and the Germans lined up with Saddam. Now when the US refers to the French, the Germans, the Italians or the Spanish as "our allies" they mean it no more than I would.

Herbert Thornton

TGF UKIP -

I agree that Russia is going to become more powerful and that may have its disadvantages for us.

I don't know what other people would choose, but if it came to having to choose, I would rather live in Russia itself than in an Islamic Britain.

Ian C

Europe will never be able to defend itself against a determined aggressor without an increase in military spend to US levels. That is never going to happen while Europe is more concerned with social benefit schemes that will bankrupt it, leaving an eastern agressor with an influential population within European societies, to take over by default.

Total Cynic

Look at Germany's reaction to the US note asking for more commitment in dangerous areas in Afghanistan. What are the French doing? These people won't commit anywhere outside 100 yards of their front door. EDF? Common foreign policy? No way. This has been on the horizon for years. Fox is a little bit late.

David Lindsay

TGF UKIP, not a bit of it (and thsi administration is on the wya out, anyway). The Statement of Principels of the Henry Jackson Society, for example, calls directly for a single EU defence capabality under overall American command, fully articulating neoconservative thought on the matter. It has been signed my several key Cameron allies.

bynorth45@yahoo.com

Our soliders died for you Brits in WWI, and then again in WWII. As an American tax payer, I can't see any good reason to waste our money on YOUR defense. You take care of your own business, and we should just worry about own problems. Thank you.

R.Rowan

To bynorth45 America entered ww2 because the Japannese bombed the hell out of Pearl Harbour and being allies of Germany caused you to enter the against them as well.As for ww1 I believe it was the sinking of an American ship by the Germans that caused Americas entry into that war.With regards to paying for it I believe we were repaying your leasing arrangement for 50 odd years after the war had ended.whats more this country still provides facilities for the defence of the USA or have you forgotten all the missiles you sent over to Greenham Common and your listening posts and early warning systems.Ithink it has been more of a two way trade and beneficial to both of us.

Perry Clark

While I wish to absolve none of the obligation to secure and defend their own, I could not help but balance the comment of my fellow American with one of my own, in which I would remind readers on both sides of the pond of the filial bond that still ties the UK and the US together as the oldest members of the democratic Anglosphere. It's been said that nations don't have friends, only interests. To which I respond that often our strongest interests lie with those of our closest friends.