Labour's referendum gambit won't work with Brown in charge

chris

Gordon's dividing lines: How pathetic! He alwaysgives petty politics precedence over coherent policies.

Nicholas

Says it all really. A government that can think only in terms of "cunning plans" to:-

a) Hold onto power against the will of the people (who want a GE now)
b) Sabotage the next democratically elected government

Childish, vindictive and destructive. These people are not fit to govern.

Ironic and despicable also that the repulsive and disingenuous Brown who will not allow a referendum promised in the New Labour manifesto now proposes one that wasn't.

Chuck Unsworth

So, once again it's change 'the rules' to suit Brown's political aims. Why? Why bother? He's a gonner no matter what the outcome of an election.

As to the "senior figures....government" well that has been the policy for at least a year, now. It's been very clear for some time that Labour will lose (barring major developments). The sole question is - by how much?

Mark C

It is pure, or rather, impure politics.
Whence this sudden interest in the alternative vote system? Why that rather than some other alternative to first past the post?
The Tory line should be that this shows that Brown is not concentrating on the economic crisis and getting public spending under control (let alone the proper supply and support for our troops in Afghanistan), but on playing politics.

The Oncoming Storm

More likely Cameron's argument will be "So you want a referendum on voting reform, after 13 years when you had the chance to do so and did nothing while you won't honour your manifesto commitment to have a referendum on Lisbon?"

It's so transparent that people will see through it, it's not the fault of FPTP that MP's were allowed free reign on expenses rather it's the fault of the government and the Commons authorities for allowing such a weak system to be created.

John Adlington

Labour will never countenance first past the post. Think about the 2005 election - 80 more seats in England than the tories and fewer votes.

John

Discomfort is probably just a happy accident. Main purpose surely is to seek to avoid another 12-18 years out of power: dissatisfaction with cuts and raised taxes in the first term, and PR, would mean Labour could hope to get back in after a first term.
Of course, to avoid this, the Tories just need to arrange boundary changes and reduce the influence of the Scots at the same time as introducing PR....

GeoffH

This presupposes that such a referendum would pass.

In the mood to chuck out a miserable, failed Labour government by the sort of margin foreshadowed by Norwich North and Crewe & Nantwich that seems highly unlikely.

Why would an electorate willing, say, to give a Tory majority of 100 back a Labour-proposed electoral reform referendum?

No chance.

Richard

They are tactically and strategically moribund tribalists with a sociopathic delusion that everyone else is either wrong or stupid. Disgraceful.

R King

Doesn't it just sum up the thoughts of Peter Brown and Gordon Mandelson!

Was it Macmillan who said never pass a law that you wouldn't want to be in the hands of the opposition.

Politics under Brown are sinking to a new low..... just like the economy!

Kenneth Beadles

This government doesn't need to plan how to discomfit an incoming Tory one. They have got the country into such an almighty mess that it will take another decade to get us back to some sort of normality.

RobC

Would any of us back a referendum proposed by Brown?
I doubt it bearing in mind the constitutional treaty that he signed which incidentally is not worth the paper it it written on because no politician of whatever ilk can barter our constitutional rights without our approval and that is exactly what he thinks he has done.

Suki

Quite.

Financially and politically Labour are determined to scorch every last bit of earth. This is the most vicious, spiteful and vindictive government this country has ever seen.

The difficulty for Labour is just that it's so transparent.

Changing the voting system on polling day is the sort of thing that goes on in Marxist South American countries, which is what Britain now resembles.

Slim Jim

This is undoubtedtly just one of many 'initiatives' of the Traitor's scorched earth policy. What other havoc will he wreak before he's thrown out of office in disgrace? It beggars belief that a referendum is being proposed especially when he reneged blatantly on the EU one!

Alex R

The Electoral Commission would oppose such a move as it would be impossible for equal TV coverage to be offered to the three main parties at the election and for electoral reform (with Lab/Lib Dems/Greens supporting electoral reform).

The spending limits would also be impossible (£15m on gen election, but only £5m on the referendum. But where does spending on the referendum stop and spending on the election campaign start?)

Laughing Gravy

I should not think the Conservatives need to be too concerned about this. That is if it actually comes to pass! There may be a vague feeling in the voting population at large in favour of change - but to what system? AV, or AV plus, are not proportional systems, and there will be many more pressing problems for an incoming government to deal with. So even before the legislation is before Parliament to allow for a referendum there will be enough areas of contention (and not just among Tories)to indicate that the 'dividing lines' will be very fuzzy inddeed. But from the point of view of the Government, this proposal has a major disadvantage. It will be a reminder in the run up to the election, and on election day, that the Government broke its promise to give a referendum on the Lisbon proposals.

david

There should be three referendums on GE day.

1. Scottish/Welsh Independence

2. Membership of the EU

3. The voting system.

Publius

A referendum on the Lisbon treaty please. That was what we were promised. So where is it?

And perhaps, while we're at it, we can review England's constitutional relationship with Scotland and Scottish MPs.

PhilipH

This idea maybe attractive to people like Alan Johnson but the electoral timetable is very much against this happening for the following reaons:

1. The next and last session of parliament is too short.

2. The House of Lords would almost certainly veto this as unconstistutional before a general election.

3. Once rejected by the Lords, the government could not uitilise the parliament and therefore it would die at the end of the session.

4. Many Labour MPs like FPTP,because it means that they would never have to be in a coalition with the Lib Dems.

This is probably just a tactic by AJ/Guardian to try and remove Brown and limit the level of defeat by Labour,i.e. a last throw of the dice

chris

Strewth! Surely everybody will see through this.

If we were to have a referendum, it would be better to have one about the East Lothian Question - should Scots MPs in Westminster have the right to vote on anything which does not apply to their own constituents (coupled with the question - can Scots MPs then realistically be in the government) - as the first move in removing them altogether, if that's what the English want.

Alan Douglas

"There are clearly now senior figures in the Labour party who accept that the party will lose the next election and are now working out how best to discomfort an incoming Tory government."

I don't suppose that it has ever occurred to these traitors that the same actions might just discomfort the whole goddam country ?

Hang the lot of them .... (sadly, metaphorically only, of course)

Alan Douglas

Paul

Everything Brown does is for his political ends. The country comes second.

What a shit!

Hawkeye

R King said: "Was it Macmillan who said never pass a law that you wouldn't want to be in the hands of the opposition."

I had not hear that one before, but it makes a lot of sense. Obviously Gordon has never heard it either.

HC

It isn't the only place that disorder is breaking out.

The Manager Thinker John Seddon criticised the Audit Commission this week, suggesting that they be reined in to just following the money. This would save hundreds of millions in the public sector and unleash huge innovation. You see, currently they are regulated central targets and performance indicators and control. Except they neither improve performance nor monitor performance.

The Audit Commission then made a personal attack on him.

It is all recorded in the Local Government Chronicle.

seb

"...senior figures...are now working out how best to discomfort an incoming Tory government."

WHAT?!?! Does this mean that instead of offering constructive criticism and advice and speaking out on behalf of its constituents, Labour's priority will be to sabotage the UK's next government? I can hardly believe this of such decent folk.

Andy

Simple: declare in the manifesto that if elected, the Tories will ignore the result of the referendum. Problem solved.

Chris Rose

It is totally wrong to hold a referendum, particularly a referendum on the constitution, at the same time as a general election. A matter of that importance should be considered on its own in a separate ballot, with a separate campaign.

If that fool Brown wants to do it, let him try, but the British people are not fools: they will not give him the answer he wants.

Dave B

Just underlines how the Labour gov't have spent their time in power doing what's best for the Labour Party, rather than striving to give the nation good government.

Ken

A vigorous campaign by the Conservatives to point out the evils of any changes to the voting system would be a good idea right now. We must never underestimate Brown's cunning. There is considerable mood for change and this could do a lot of damage at election time. The Tories should move now to poison the well.

Battle 2807

This country will not tolerate ANY referendum until we have had the one promised us on the Lison treaty.

strapworld

Surely, all Cameron has to do to negate this referendum is to state, within the Tory Manifesto, that the Tory Party is committed to FIRST PAST THE POST! elctoral system!

end of: I doubt that, God forbid, if Labour was to ever win that they would change the system anyway.

Jeremy

"Leaving aside the propriety of introducing huge constitutional change just to discomfort the opposition..."

It's the sheer cynicism of the move that strikes one most forcibly. The good of the country doesn't even enter their thinking. Before they go, they would deliberately shatter what is left of our already damaged constitution just to make the job of reconstruction and restoration that much harder for the rest of us. What a miserable bunch of unprincipled thugs. The sooner we are shot of them - the lot of 'em - the better.

As somebody else has already pointed out, they refused to give us the referendum on Europe which we were promised in their election manifesto, but are happy to offer us an unasked-for referendum on PR "...just to discomfort the opposition". What do you call behaviour that is as low, as cynical and as deceitful as that? And what an utterly disreputable form of politics to practice.

Of course, it would also serve as a red herring - a distraction. Get everyone talking about PR during an election campaign and straightaway you have stopped them talking about Afghanistan, our mountain of national debt, our relations with the Americans and just how low and despicable this entire period of Labour government has been.

Fearless Frank

Is it actually possible to hold a referendum at the same time as a GE?
Isn't Parliament "dissolved" three weeks before a GE - and therefore there is no government at the time? So who would be actually holding the referendum?
I'm genuinely intrigued - perhaps someone who knows about the constitution can throw some light?

Michael Taylor

Their last act is to poison the wells - an act of hatred and revenge against the British people. Tells you all you need to know.

T'other Paul

David:
4. A referendum on English Independence!

Verity

Battle 2807 says the country won't tolerate a referendum until we get the one we were promised on the Lisbon Treaty, but frankly, I have never seen such a supine electorate as the British. They will tolerate anything.

colin

Given that just about everyone not voting Labour in the next election will be voting for anyone but Gordon, it's a shame the AV system won't be used. It would ensure Labour's annihilation.

That aside, it's a really stupid idea. In effect Brown would be saying "after 13 years I've suddenly realised we need electoral reform but we won't have a proper debate on it and we'll only offer you one alternative system".

I hope he goes for it as it will be a political disaster, it can easily be dismissed by the Conservatives as it doesn't offer a real choice and it will very likely be rejected killing off any chance of changing the rules to suit Labour.

Carly

The Tories will just have to go nuclear and call for an English Parliament, but has Cameron got the bottle?

Stan, UK

We need a referendum on an English Parliament. I cannot understand Cameron's opposition to it. It benefits the Tories massively. Country first is a noble principle but as leader of the Conservative party Cameron should also be thinking of ways to enhance our position. It's called political survival.

Emil

Strange world we live in, if Saddam or Mugabe had tried such a stunt the indignation coming from the likes of Brown and his predeccessor would have been on every news headline, Heck we might even have invaded one of their countries on the pretext of restoring democracy...

John Page

Brown (if he is still in power) won't prepare people enough to get them to vote for reform - assuming he could get this past his own MPs...!

All Cameron has to do is to point out that it's not the referendum Labour promised. That'll make Brown look even seedier.

As to any PR involving a party list (PR doesn't have to, but the proposal probably would), absolutely NO!

Kittler

If ever there was an election worth losing it must be the next, unless the politician is some sort of masochist and with an overwhelming sadistic desire to make the public pay much more for much less.

R.McGeddon

This kind of behaviour reminds me of the wicked little child playing football is on the side losing 5-0. Suddenly, in the 88th minute, he picks up the ball, announces truculently, 'This is MY ball; I'm not playing with you lot any more, you cheat' and then flounces off sulkily into the distance.
Could any of the electorate believe that Gordon Brown could have a personality flaw of this kind ??

Yes we can !

colin

Two kickings in one day...

Bring it on, and whilst he's at it, let's have that referendum as well.

Ray

It's not hard to see why Brown will probably go down in history as the worst prime minister this country has ever had.

Oscar

How disgusting. This makes me ever more appreciative of the honour and dignity that Major showed in the run-up to the 1997 election defeat. Major left office with every main economic indicator improving and look what Labour have done with that gift. Now they've wrecked the economy, all they want to do is play low politics and damn the country. Sickening.

Andy Leeds

This is Gordon the Moron being his usual stupid self. Also I think I am correct in saying that if such a bill were introduced it might be very difficult to get it through the House of Lords and it would be impossible to use the Parliament Acts to do so. I think these can only be used on a bill which was defeated in the Lords in the last session, and as this parliament only has 6 months to run from the next State Opening it wouldn't be possible.

rmh

Surely would have to include referendum on being in the EU?

Battle 2807

Verity, you say that the electorate will tolerate anything and up to a point I agree with you.......but....there comes a point where we say 'this far and no further' and my feeling is that the British are just about at that point.
As a people, we do not riot in the streets etc but I feel that we are almost at the point where civil unrest will begin. After all, how else can we make our views known?

Andy

Labour should reflect that it was PR that gave Le Pen's Front National seats in the Assemblée. Perhaps they think better BNP MPs than pass up a chance to embarrass the Tories! Tinkering with the electoral system on purely tribal lines is appalling. Labour has had 12 years to come up with a sensible, workable system but didn't even consider it (despite their manifesto) until they could no longer benefit from the existing system. Frankly, I believe anything that has Labour's fingerprints on it must be useless judged on past performance! I'd be voting no to that particular change!

Robert

How can such a referendum be binding? We don't have any legislation to make it so, and if we have it can simply be repealed, by any Government with a majority, by the simple expedient of failing to ratify it.

mac

If only Labour had a charismatic leader, they'd win the GE. So opines W Hutton in today's Observer.

But, funny old thing, he offers no suggestions as to who should replace Brown. Perhaps it's because the electorate, which Mr Hutton extols as having 'deep wisdom' (evidently NewLabour's boast of being the political wing of the British nation ain't dead yet), would laugh uncontrollably were he to single out any particular name from the integrity-free zone that is our current government and declare that person to possess charisma.

TGF UKIP

Alex R makes an excellent theoretical point about such a course being unacceptable to the Electoral Commission.

I say theoretical because of having just looked at who the Chair of the Electoral Commission is, I think it can be taken for granted that there will be very little chance of any objection to whatever Gordon wants to do from that quarter.

Indeed, about as much chance as there was of "Dame" Suzi Leather's Charity Commission causing Brown any public embarrassment over all the corruption at the Smith Institute.

Chuck Unsworth

@ Battle 2807

"As a people, we do not riot in the streets etc". Well, not quite - G20, Hunting Ban, Poll Tax etc. But I'd agree that we are less so inclined than, say, the French - who have turned rioting into an art form.

However, I cannot recall a time during post WWII history when public anger and contempt for politicians in general - and the government in particular - was so visceral and so tangible.

Prodicus

After Lisbon, do you really think Brown (or any other Labour leader) would dare to bandy the word 'referendum' and, by so doing in an election which is going to be about honour, honest politics and honouring the will of the British people, thereby hand the ace of trumps to Cammo ? Please, oh, please... oh, go on, Gordon, do it. Please do it.

mac

TGF:

Doubtless the similarity between Ms Watson's campaigning background and interests and those of - say - Nanny Hewitt and hectoring Hattie are purely coincidental. Anything else would begin to smack of political cronyism which, of course, played no part in Dame Suzi Leather's appointment either . . .

Brian E.

What would be the validity of such a referendum anyway, certainly in he short term. Any majority in favour would, I am sure be marginal, and as the Irish have shown, what is to stop the next government calling another (like the Irish) if they don't like the result?
The only risk to the Tories concerns the number of people who support UKIP. If the Tories didn't support coming out of the EU, it is unlikely that they would attract any UKIP votes in the general election. Cameron is foolish to ignore UKIP, not only did the Tory vote go up in the Norwich by-election, but so also did the UKIP vote, and those votes could be the difference between winning and loosing the general election.

Niall

Blatantly, this is a fiddle so Labour can destroy what remains of our parliamentary democracy. PR is rubbish and you end up with the tail wagging to dog. DONT be fooled by this rubbish. Strange they think if it now... as the endgame begins. Cant we have a Lisbon treaty vote first, please?

john miller

Hahahah

Ref hahahahah

refer hahahaha

hahhaha dum?

Yeah right. Brown. That person with the duck's arse attitude to man management. Asking 60 million (or, if we include postal votes, 80 million) people a question, the answer to which he is supposed to take seriously?

I think there are two chances. One is Football Association and the other is less than that.

Roger Thornhill

Beyond cynical. Scorched earth mentality.

Clearly this shows Brown and his administration are not fit for office. Their job is to be guardians of our loaned personal sovereignty and ADMINISTER the country as efficiently as possible, protecting our hard-won freedoms, not dickering about trying to make the next government as uncomfortable as possible.

Anyone in the private sector would be fired on the spot for Gross Misconduct.

Pat

Should be childs play to bat away. As stated previously- he's got to come up with a convincing reason why he's proposing something now that he hasn't mentioned in 25 years as an MP, as well as why he thinks this is worth a referendum but Lisbon isn't.
On top of that any referendum must be on a specific proposal- all Mr. Camaron has to do is come up with an alternative proposal for constitutional reform and hold a referendum on that- even if Mr. Brown's referendum is passed. And he doesn't even have to do that if the advantage to Labour is as delusional as everything else he's come up with.

2trueblue

Brown and Mandy are really scraping the bottom of the barrel of ideas. Leaving the full 10 mths to calling the election may not be very wise, who knows what state the economy will be in by then?
The real agenda is to make sure that the Lisbon treaty will be totally ratified. All the rest is just posturing. This government have destroyed the country totally, we have no real freedom left, they have spent all the money and they do not care about the electorate at all.

Nicholas Hallam

Of all the alternatives to FPTP AV is the very worst. It is neither proportional nor any fairer than the existing system, merely ensuring that instead of electing the candidate that MOST voters want MOST, you get the candidate that LEAST voters want LEAST. Brown probably thinks this is in Labour's interests, believing, perhaps, that voters who support minor parties are more likely to hate the Tories than Labour. I think he is wrong about that.

Jonathan Cook

Labour are spiteful and vile.

The Damian McBride affair gave us a glimpse of just how low Labour are prepared to stoop. This referendum story sounds all too believable.

Mark M

This was an idea proposed on LabourList sometime ago. Write into law all manner of left-wing ideology so that it makes it awkward for a Cameron government to do anything once in office. So convinced are lefties of their righteousness that they can't understand how everyone doesn't agree with them.

Quite how they think the country is best served by hamstringing an incoming administration with pointless political red tape I've no idea. These spiteful ideas prove beyond doubt why they are not fit for the office they hold.

charles j jaggers

Obviously it is a load of lies thought up by dodgy dave cameron and his cronies.

Frank P

Niall

You're more likely to get a referendum on the Lesbian Treaty than the Lisbon Treaty. Which reminds me of the young Dutch boy who put his finger in a dyke to stop another European inundation.

David Ossitt

Ray.

There is no probably about it.

He is without any doubt the worst the vilest PM in our history.

An old Yorkshire curse on him, "I hope his rabbit dies and he can't sell the hutch".

terence patrick hewett

In the Africa of the 1960's, when the colonial administration left, the indigenous population called this 's******g on the toilet seat'. To the career politicians of the Labour Party, this is just a strategic move. The idea that they might be betraying their country does not even enter their heads.