If the Tories are to take full advantage of this moment, they must cut out the unforced errors

logdon

This is a cheap, seconds store tea cup.

The real storm rages elsewhere.

It could well turn out to be the perfect version.

Then Britain will really have to batten down the hatches.

paracelsus

If anything, the last few days really shows what a bunch of immature and childhish people there are in the MSM; in particular the BBC.

Hannan's comments were misrepresented and sensationalised. He has been commenting on need for reform in the NHS for quite a while, so his comments on Fox News were, in fact, nothing new. It is the MSM, and this failed government, that is stifling real, adult debate over policies and services in this country.

The MSM needs to be castrated before any real mature policy debate can ensue.

witteringsfromwitney

Sorry James, but I have to take issue with you.

Yes Duncan's remarks were crass to say the least, but why vilification of Hannan?

Hannan and Carswell pubished The Plan approx 10 months ago and for at least 10 months the cries of 'shock horror' from the 'Left' have been most noticeable by their absence.

Of those vifiying Hannan, how many have actually read The Plan and of those that have, how many actually understood what they read?

To those that haven't - buy a copy and read pages 97-115!

Irene

Yes I agree - and as far as the NHS is concerned they should throw it straight back at Labour - pointing out ALL the problems, and there are many and what the Tories plan to do about it

Burnham said he welcomes a debate with the Tories - take it to them I say as there is plenty of ammunition.

Also Burnham shows his immaturity and incompetence when pushed.

Rhoda Klapp

Or you might say it represents the opposition running so scared of Today and Newsnight that it will not oppose anything the government does and dare not discuss anything that the BBC will take exception to. It takes caution to the level of cowardice. And it is to the detriment of the country as a whole, which deserves a proper opposition.

David

I agree. But when, for example, Hannan goes back on Fox, and gives a totally unrepentant interview, it's hard to know what the leadership can do about such things.

subrosa

I think you're quite wrong here about Dan Hannan Mr Forsyth. If the tories had any policies involving changing the NHS for the better (and it certainly needs to improve), then this was the ideal time for DC to start the debate.

He let a superb opportunity for a real debate on how the NHS is funded and run. More and more people now realise we're way down the ratings compared with other European countries in healthcare and they want the issue debated.

So Dan Hannan was right and it's the Tory leadership who hasn't got his ear to public opinion.

The public would respect the tories more if they started to discuss the matters which concern the public.

As for A Duncan, he's just a posing fool.

Verity

Paracelsus says the MSM needs to be castrated.

They already have been. By Alastair Campbell. That's why they fear to voice any original, non-Marxist, thought.

Oldcragrat

The likes of Hannan dare to criticise the sacred cow which is the NHS and provokes a blizzard of self righteous fury by people rushing to defend it in all its imperfect glory. David Miliband : "Asked by presenter Matthew Parris whether there were any circumstances in which terrorism was justified, Mr Miliband said: ‘Yes, there are circumstances in which it is justifiable, and yes, there are circumstances in which it is effective.’ This is David Miliband talking on BBC Radio 4 yesterday about his father's friend Jo Slovo of the military wing of the ANC in South Africa. Odious as the South African regime was, perhaps Al Qaeda use the same rationale thus justifying their evil acts. Hannan was "unpatriotic". The silence of the criticism of Miliband is deafening.

TrevorsDen

Do not be a dope Paracelsus - Hannans comments were ripe for misrepresentation. A sane politician would have realised that. Is no use Hannan bleating as he did in his telegraph blog.

He is a prize arse

And its no use you blaming the media. They will use any hook to hang a story on and if you, Hannan or any other politicians of his ilk do not realise that by now they had better get out of the game before they score any more own goals.

We can expect Brown and Labour to scream blue murder over this and why not - its an easy option thats been delivered to them by Hannan and it take the focus away from Browns disasters. We can expect it to be splattered over every one of their election leaflets. It gives them a narrative - something to distract from rising unemployment

Minnie Ovens

Mr Forsyth, you seem to think that Alan Duncan is in the same blame boat as Daniel Hannan.
You also seem to reflect the general malaise, or cold fear if one is honest, in the Conservative party about having any policies (some might say principles, as well) because the big bad Labour party will huff and puff and blow Mr Cameron's house down if mentioned.
Well, Duncan is a fool no doubt. He was presenting the very unacceptable face of old Toryism, but Hannan was presenting his well known and well considered views on National Health which are important in the much needed debate on how to run the NHS colossus more efficiently.
This is important because we now know that Mr Cameron does not want to change a thing.
Everything is just tickety boo.
The Spectator and most of the British media have played the US debate (yes, in the States they really debate both sides of the argument unlike in the British media) like an emotional violin, all emotive style and no substance.
I worry about Mr Cameron and his gross timidity and lack of understanding of what a leader does but I have contempt with both the TV and Newspaper media in the UK who bypass the problem to make cheap points by selectively reporting on the US controversy.
At least Mr Nelson has openly called for a debate so well done someone at the Spectator.

logdon

Hannan is not alone

http://www.pjtv.com/v/2321

His comment related to the NHS in comparison to US health care.

What is missing from Coffee House is what Americans themselves think about Obama's push.

This is Bill Hicks and a black American's view which will serve to illuminate the true debate.

And how US liberals will stop at nothing in their eagerness to shut down all dissent.

jon dee

Media judgement should come naturally to experienced politicians and errors at this time of the year are punished severely by a Press starved of it's usual choice but with space to fill.

It also allows Labour to divert attention from it's mismanagement of the economy with a stream of low level spin and sound bites, eagerly accepted by it's media friends.

Some Tories still don't appear to recognise the values of loyalty and teamwork.

William Blakes Ghost

I think all this article and this weeks ludicrous narrative shows is how ridiculously detached the Westminster lobby and commentators have become from reality.

It just more la-la land nonsense where they collectively coalesce to agree that one and one adds up to 13.

You really cannot find a ounce of grey matter between the whole journalistic class, especially in silly season.

This is clearly demonstrated by their ridiculous conclusions from some 10-15 thousand tweets on Twitter.

Which brings me back to the most important question of the week.

How many twits does it take to get a tw@?

Emil

The average man in the street has given up taking any interest in the utterances of politicians long ago. Show 90% of the population a picture of Dan Hannan and they'll probably think he was the man under the Darth Jackson mask. Luckily they know that Brown has wrecked our country and economy, and sweet retribution grows closer by the day..

Anyway I hear that Andy Burnham was depressed about more important things than the NHS last night.

John Page

Bracketing Duncan & Hannan shows, I am afraid, a myopic concentration on political minutiae.

Rosa Klubb

I agree with Rhoda - PC rules the 'debate'
The guy with an opinion is first to be voted out of the big brother house.
Best say nothing and look your best. Andy Burnham's mascara is a vote winner in Little Britain

Red Rag

I used to wonder were the right of the Tory party used to live.....there wern't that many coffins in this world.Now I have found the answer, on here.

"How many twits does it take to get a tw@?"

Well there is at least 10 on this thread for a start....and quite a few twits.

http://redrag1.blogspot.com/

Carly

Definately a terrible week for the Conservatives. Is Coulson on holiday or something? I notice you haven't mentioned the Independent story alledging Cameron is changing policy for favours from the rich. If they start taking the electorate for granted they will lose like Kinnock did. Also we are 10 months away from an election and we are just not hearing anything substantial from the Tories on anything.

Edward McLaughlin

paracelsus

"The MSM needs to be castrated before any real mature policy debate can ensue."

A difficult one that. As there isn't a full pair of balls between them.

Jeremy

It was Disraeli who observed that a nation's institutions reflect not only the character of the people, but also their "requirements" - what they, as a people, require. And that, understanding this, the Tory party should be in the business of defending the nation's institutions.

The NHS is a Great British Institution. Most people, it would appear, understand this. They love it and respect it and they don't mind paying their taxes for it if, that is, they know it will be there for them when they are injured or fall ill - as, indeed, it is there for them.

Therefore for Daniel Hannan, as a Briton and a Tory, to go on American television and trash a much-loved national institution in the way that he did, showed, I think, an insulting arrogance towards - and contempt for - his own people, his own country and one of its most important institutions. And I suspect that in the process of doing this, he has also done harm to his party.

Verity

I've come across some rather horrifying and, I think credible, information in the Comment section of Simon Heffer's article http://tinyurl.com/rdunlh yesterday.

The poster is called Artificer and he posted on 15 August at 7:25 p.m. If true, this would explain so much that appears to be inexplicable. The poster is perfectly literate and credible and if writing an old-fashioned letter to the editor, would have written in normal blue ink.

I recommend you read his post even if you don't read Mr Heffer's very good article.

Judy

Sorry, but I agree with the comments of Minnie and others that equating the speeches of Duncan and Hannan (and assuming that David Cameron has dealt with them appropriately is a profound mistake.

In particular, failing to act promptly to remove Duncan for expressing intolerable attitudes of self-entitlement of MPs (and then trying to pass them off as a joke) discredits Cameron's attempts to pass himself off as tough on troughers. He clearly wildly underestimates the continuing public anger on this subject--they will not forget. As far as I'm concerned, Duncan will richly deserve to lose his seat if successfully contested by Terry Waite. If Labour have any sense they'll stand down to let him do so. Cameron's reason here for not acting was that he wants to calm the whole expenses scandal down (including the outrageous final action of the Expenses Committee on which Duncan represented the Tories in allowing monthly expenses without receipt to rise from £250 to £400 -- whatever were Cameron & the Tories thinking of to agree to that?

Now the issue of Daniel Hannan. Why has Cameron trashed Hannan? Not because he knows that Hannan is genuinely wrong. He knows how many deeply respected and serious studies have been done that show that the NHS is not necessarily the best way to protect and treat the nation's health. He could have restricted himself to saying that there were positions which are presently minority views within the party, and that he runs a genuinely democratic party, not a league of parrots.
I don't think for a moment that the public was angry with Hannan in the way that they are with Duncan.

Cameron seems to be much too scared to open up the debate on the NHS. Is he asking questions about how effective the NHS is in relative rates of cancer cure? Is he asking questions about how effective the NHS is treating people with dementia and with mental illnesses? Is he asking questions about the huge and growing sums spent on PCT bureaucracies and about how undemocratic they are? Is he, like Hannon, drawing attention to more cost effective practices in other countries' health services and asking why we do not adopt them here? No, he isn't. He just keeps saying, me too to every jibe and sacred-cow myth put out by Labour and the NHS vested interest groups.

That, and that alone, is why the Tories have had, and have deserved to have, a bad week.

JohnAnt

It was always clear to me that Cameron was positioning himself so as to win the election.
He can only do this with urban English northern and midland votes, and with a big swing to the Tories in London and other traditional Labour cities. These are all council heartlands, high-density housing estates and 'street properties' controlled by dinosaur labour councils. Labour councils mean large armies of hospital workers and freebie users (IB, pensioners, single-parent extended families, immigrants, students, long-term unemplyed etc). And of course masses of teechers and NHS Unison members and council workers in subsidised housing.
Ergo, Cameron cannot wake the NHS giant.
The circle can be squared for PR purposes if everyone, including Hannan, explains that of course they want a fair, unified, joined up national system of healthcare provision, yadda yadda.
They just want it organised radically differently and with a strict ID and contributory basis to prevent waste and unfair freeloading. (Along the lines: 'Would you want someone helping themselves to your car and the food in your fridge? Of course not!' or 'Would you pay someone for a joint of meat so they can go to the butcher and get you one at any price the butcher cares to charge? Of course not, you'd go and buy it yourself to make sure you get best price!)
The magic letters 'NHS' can stay in place until they fall off the wall. They're irrelevant. The important thing is to revolutionise the system and its financial basis. Reply to Brown's stealth taxes with stealth transformation of education and NHS.
That puts the ball in Labour's court, so they can bellyache all they like about 'creeping privatisation'. The voters couldn't give a monkey's about that. And the confrontation, when it comes, between unions and government 9and it will come) will find the majority on the government side - but only if Cameron makes sure enough public workers have been gradually sacked beforehand.
I'd like to think Cameron susses all this, but I fear he's just playing to the gallery.

Owen Morgan

Jeremy claims that, "The NHS is a Great British Institution. Most people, it would appear, understand this. They love it and respect it and they don't mind paying their taxes for it if, that is, they know it will be there for them when they are injured or fall ill - as, indeed, it is there for them.

"Therefore for Daniel Hannan, as a Briton and a Tory, to go on American television and trash a much-loved national institution in the way that he did, showed, I think, an insulting arrogance towards - and contempt for - his own people, his own country and one of its most important institutions. And I suspect that in the process of doing this, he has also done harm to his party."

What unadulterated tripe. The EU tried not so long ago to use laws on blasphemy to justify the banning of criticism of itself and its institutions. This notion that the NHS is an "Institution", that must be defended from all criticism, is similarly absurd. If the NHS were perfect, there would be no criticism; since it isn't, why should people not criticize it and suggest ways in which it might be improved?

Anyone who set out today to design a health service and used the MRSA-riddled NHS as a model would need an institution, all right.

Verity

Re Judy's post: Endorse. every. word.

Peter from Maidstone

Why does there seem to be a universal silence over the fact that Milliband said that terrorism can be justified? How is this not much more serious then whether or not someone thinks the NHS can be improved? Why is there nothing about it on the Times or BBC sites? What is going on?

John Bracewell

I agree with the sentiment regarding 'own goals'. Duncan and Hannan are not the only ones. Remember Lansley and his 10% gaffe. Also after a major speech by David Cameron, Hammond was on Daily Politics the same or next day and could not give reasonable examples of which Quangos would be reduced/cut. These are all unforced errors and the Conservative spokespeople will have to raise their game when it comes to the general election campaign. Duncan is a loose cannon who speaks before he thinks and could give advantage to Labour during the campaign.