Andy Burnham goes way too far

BrianSJ

Once again, the silly season is making ZNL say things they will really regret this side of the election. Lord Greenslime has been committed to the cuts/investment mantra, and now mascara boy cannot introduce any reforms to the NHS; completely locked in. I can sympathise with him being in an unfit state at the weekend, I am still in mourning at losing 6-1 to Arsenal, but he should have given himself a little time to get over it.

Sally Chatterjee

Burnham should be concerning himself with health policies. The last time I checked Swine Flu, obesity, cancer care, MRSA and GP contracts mattered more than the fate of an MEP or who gets an invitation to the Conservative Conference.

Boudicca

Burnham's just doing what Labour always do: misrepresent the facts and try to stifle the debate. That's why Labour has no ideas.

Burnham's a Socialist - he knows best and we must all do as he says. Pathetic.

Erik Bloodaxe

The day job of running the world's biggest civilian employer is obviously not big enough for him.

Chris lancashire

The man is unfit to be a minister. With all the myriad problems and issues facing the NHS he spends his time politicking. Cameron should demand his resignation. And however much Labour try to stoke this nasty little non-story it really isn't going to run and the mud won't stick.

Now, can the grown-ups have a sensible debate on how to run a health service.

Malcolm

He's just one of the many political pygmies that infests this wretched and squalid governemt. His time would be better spent sorting out the mountain of problems in the NHS instead of wasting time beating himself into a lather of self-righteous indignation.

Possible response from DC: "Is there any chance that you might try earning your salary by getting to grips with the many challenges facing the NHS, or do you prefer to scuttle round Westminster trying to score pathetic political points? And while you're at it, how about finding a solution to the scandal, the utter SCANDAL, of 30,000 unnecessary deaths in 5 years caused by hospital infections?"

No, obviously not.

THX1138

I'm not so sure that this NHS scrap was at all bad for the Tories I thought Dave handled the whole thing rather well. He sounded sincere on the TV and I found his e-mail that popped into my in box rather moving we all know that because of Ivan his family have had more need of the NHS than most and I felt his defence of the NHS was heart felt.

I have no problem with NHS reform, greater efficiency, getting more out of the budget even a bit of private top up but I do believe that free at the point of delivery is sacrosanct and after watching Dave I'm convinced along with I'm sure most of the British public that Dave believes that as well.

All parties have their nutters but Dave needs to shut people like Hannan up if he wants to keep people like me on board.

Nicholas

Burnham has strong fascist tendencies. "Talk it down" is a classic piece of Leftofascist newspeak. In simple terms it just means to criticise but their word reveals the importance of propaganda in everything they do or say because they "talk it up". Horrible lot and Cameron needs to nip this in the bud by using it as an opportunity to "talk down" the fascist Left.

I've had my eye on Burnham's extremism since he suggested censoring the internet based on his personal moral values and prejudices. The sooner he is kicked out of any public office by the voters the safer this island will be.

Ian C

Just send him Hannan's book and a transcript of everything he actually said on Fox - in un-joined up writing so he has the best chance of understanding what it means. It will still be beyond him.

davidke

Pretty easy to deal with this example of Labour's political maturity I would have thought. Something on the lines of "Gosh, did he really say that ? Dear me", would do.

Mark M

This really is Yes, Minister isn't it? A department's success is measured by the size of its budget. No wonder Burnham doesn't want questions asked. People might see the scale of waste in the NHS and conclude it doesn't need such a bloated budget.

Fraser's article was a real eye-opener, with the majority wanting at the least fundamental reform in Australia, Canada, Germany, Holland, New Zealand, the UK and the US (every country listed). Yet, as always with Labour, public opinion is simply something to be ignored.

Nick

It's interesting that if you read the comments on the LabourList website regarding the recent furore over Hannan and the NHS that the vast majority express worry that the Labour party is making a huge mistake by taking the "unpatriotic to even suggest the NHS isn't perfect" line and making ad hominen attacks on Tories for not "loving" "the Labour Party's NHS".

Didn't Ed Balls also suggest that it was unpatriotic to question whether increased levels of borrowing might weaken sterling ? I'm sure Samuel Johnson had something to say about resorting to playing the patriotism card.

Percy

Is this the same Andy Burnham who in his magnificent defense of the NHS via Twitter clearly pointed out that he preferred Everton Football Club to the NHS.

Perhaps we need someone a little more mature to take on the vital role as Health Secretary.

Frank S

Well spotted, well conveyed.

Sean

The NHS sucks, its about time it was scrapped full stop. We pour bucket loads of tax into this bottomless hole, make it a National emergency service, all other care you pay for by insurance.

Ted

Eric Pickles (not DC) should send an open letter to Andy Burnham asking when the Labour whip is to be withdrawn from Labour MPs opposing Government policy on things like Afghanistan or the Heathrow third runway. The Usual Suspects would provide 30 or more names and the political beliefs of such as Jeremy Corbyn or John MacDonnell are a seam that could be mined to find some gems.

WIlliam Blake's Ghost

On a technicality can David Cameron actually withdraw the whip from Dan Hannan?

After all is it not a decision for the European Conservative Grouping in the European Parliament?

From what my understanding is Cameron has no overriding power to withdraw Hannan's whip.

I get the feeling that Burnham is mendaciously (or more likely imbecilically) challenging Cameron to do the impossible.

Burnham is just being dumb (yet again!) Appointing a 'Strictly Come Dancing' reject as 'Dancing Tsars' for goodness sake!

paracelsus

And these are the people running the country for the next nine months!

Absolutely disgraceful, in particular considering Hannan's views and opinions have been known for a while, and many of his suggestions make a lot of sense. The NHS is a mess, and it does need deep reform. There's no point avoiding the issue. This is something that should be confronted head on.

We need real, adult debate on this subject, and not merely childish comments and posturing by sub-standard ministers.

Hawkeye

It's opportunism - but for Cameron, not for Burnham. What a fantastic example of what is wrong with Labour - discussion is a thought crime, dissension is a thought crime, reform is not allowed.

If Cameron plays this right it will blow up nicely in Burnham's face

chris

David Cameron is streets ahead of this twerp.

Just keep telling the truth. That's all.

G Butler.

Andy Burnham is out of his depth as Health Secretary.

Furthermore it is very worrying that he seems to believe that people are not allowed an opinion in Britain that disagrees with the Govt.

It appears that Labour have morphed into a totalitarian party, where all have to agree with the views of the Great Leader.

Liz Brown

Andy Burnham shows as much grasp of reality in regard to the NHS and what Dan Hannan actually said, as his expenses scandal shows of his ability to do his sums - altogether now 1+1 =?

Winston Smith

So questioning the efficacy of the NHS is a thought crime?

Orwellian, much?

EyeSee

Very much in the 'when did you stop beating your wife' school of question. Cameron's real problem in all this is actually that, once again Dan Hannan leads on the issue as a Conservative. He is a threat to Cameron because anyone serious about Conservative values and restoring liberty to the UK would want Hannan leading the party rather than the wishy washy Cameron. Dave can do it, he just thinks like Blair; I must do and say anything to get elected. Power is all it is about to these people. They forget the running-the-country, serve-the-people bit of the job.

Hawkeye

G Butler said: "Andy Burnham is out of his depth as Health Secretary."

Andy Burnham would be out of his depth in a puddle, IMO.

Jason

Prehaps Andy Burnham will ask David Milband to resign for his comments supporting acts of terror. Britsh Forces are currently being killed and injured while they are fighting terrorists. I think this is a far more important issue then the comments of Dan Hannan whichhave been known for years.

Fernando

We now have Continental levels of expenditure on health and Cameron has committed to maintain this. What’s wrong with expecting Continental levels of care?
The NHS is simply a mechanism whereby people in the UK insure themselves against the costs of medical treatment. Other countries do it differently: some better and cheaper, some worse and more expensive. The idea that the NHS is set in stone and cannot be criticised or changed, is part of the problem. Burnham is in danger of boxing himself into a corner where he refuses to believe anything needs to improve in the NHS.
David Laws, one of most sensible of LibDems, made a valid point in the Orange Book. Luckily he is a LibDem not a Tory so no-one took any notice.

"In many continental European countries (often regarded as dangerously left-wing by commentators in this country), a totally different model of health care provision does exist, which does offer citizens greater choice and variety. The model is usually described as representing a "social insurance" approach, where the state funds all health care out of progressive taxation but people can choose between different providers.
In many of these European countries, waiting lists are regarded as an absurd British eccentricity, and the fixation with having only one state provider is regarded as absurdly out of date. The social insurance systems are identified with greater choice and competition for patients, better funding and health outcomes.
This is surely a model which we in the UK could be learning from. Could we not have a more meaningful and adult debate about how to build a health system fit for the 21st century, on the basis of the very principles which underpinned the foundation of the NHS? For example, why not switch from a monopoly NHS system to a National Health Insurance Scheme - with the NHS remaining in place, but as only one of the options available to all citizens?"

AAE

Burnham's credibility was shot weeks ago - isn't about now that 65,000 people a week were supposed to be catching Swine Flu?
But Cameron's slapping down of Hannan only encourages this sort of student common room politics

stepney

Incompetent arse. Is this as good as they can get?

A stupid scouse in charge of the NHS and a inept shop steward in charge of the British forces?

My how we'll laugh in years to come - how did we let it happen?

Chris, Birmingham

Simple response from Cameron if he is not on his holidays

"I welcome a debate about the future of the NHS. We have a system which provides services which are in some cases perfect but in other cases less so. If the Secretary for Health believes that no improvement can be made to the NHS, and it is improper for politician to hold a range of views on how improvement could be made, then perhaps he is not fit to lead the organisation"

The fact the Labour want it to be unpatriotic to criticise the NHS, and we must be obligated to 'talk it up' sums up the character of the government.

Super Blue

"Dear Mr. Burnham,

Would it not be better if your party first removed the whip from all of its MPs who used private healthcare, starting right at the top?"

Dan

Andy Burnham is as thick as several short planks and totally unfit to Secretary of State for Health, or indeed in any capacity.

JONNY

Has quite a bit of growing up to do.

Verity

I have Number Plate to thank for the first laugh of the day. He writes a typically vapid, ill-phrased post, then closes with this paragraph: "All parties have their nutters but Dave needs to shut people like Hannan up if he wants to keep people like me on board."

That is too funny! Handsome, witty, known round the Anglosphere, elegant, articulate, always in control of his argument, or THNX?

As David Cameron continues to shed votes like a shower of dandruff, comment would be superfluous.

As an aside, I think that having a prime minister born in Peru would be great fun. And he'd be the best-looking head of government in the world. Second will be Sarah Palin in 2013. Another looker.

mac

Well said, Pete.

Yet more of Labour's gossamer-thin 'patriotism' meme (G Brown, prop). Desperate stuff.
Burnham's not just out of his depth, he's drowning. He's another whelk stall incompetent, like so many in Brown's cabinet.

David Lindsay

I like Dan Hannan, and we have mutual friends. That he still has the Whip proves exactly how much MEPs really matter. Then again, this time next year he will be the only Briton left in the much-proclaimed new Group at Strasbourg.

But whatever happened to the tradition that put a commitment to the National Health Service in all three manifestos in 1945? The tradition of the Tories’ refusal to dismantle it and other key reforms when they returned to office in 1951?

That was also the tradition of those Tories who opposed first Thatcherism and then Maastricht. The economically populist and pro-manufacturing, morally and socially conservative, staunchly Unionist and pro-military, strongly church-based Toryism of those redoubtable defenders of the NHS, the Wintertons. The unyieldingly constitutionalist and civil libertarian Toryism of Richard Shepherd. The Keynesian, pro-Commonwealth, anti-neoconservative Toryism of Sir Peter Tapsell. And the conservationist, agrarian, anti-nuclear Toryism of Sir Richard Body. To name but a few.

In that last vein were the grave reservations about, and indeed outright hostility towards, nuclear weapons expressed by such distinguished Tories as Anthony Head, Peter Thorneycroft, Nigel Birch, Aubrey Jones, George Jellicoe and, above all, Enoch Powell.

That, in turn, stood within the recognition that even conventional wars, while sometimes inescapable (such as when our territory is invaded – we are neither fighting nor facing any inescapable war today), are not conservative, but cost taxpayers vast sums of money, create new threats by creating new enemies and entrenching or embittering old ones, and are morally and socially disruptive. The recognition that the point of the Armed Forces is precisely to prevent wars, by deterring them. And the recognition that everything to do with the Swinging Sixties really started during the War.

And overarching all of this (yes, even in Powell’s case much of the time) were economic policies that were and are perfectly conservative, since they were and are acceptable to Gaullists, Christian Democrats, conservative Democrats and other such exemplars of patriotism, moral and social conservatism, or both.

Surely, this is where an anti-war, Obama-endorsing paleocon like Hannan belongs? Not attacking the NHS on Fox News. Not attacking the NHS at all. And not on Fox News at all, come to that.

Trafalgar

Labeling any criticism of the NHS as unpatriotic is on a par with the Tory toff attacks in the Crewe and Nantwich by-election.

Burnham's ill-thought out press release will merely deepen the public's mistrust of Labour.

General Zod

Burnham actually said that up to 50,000 people per day would be infected with swine flu in August.

Anyone who can come out with such a statement in public is unfit to hold office.

dorothy wilson

Yes, Burnham is incompetent. Yes, he is out of his depth. He also holds views that are downright dangerous. The implication of what he has been saying is that nobody is allowed to question any policies of the ruling party. That way lies dictatorship. He should be challenged along those lines.

Nick

Notice how all Burnham only talks about the institution, and not one iota about patient care.

20-80K patients killed by errors in the NHS each year. Not a whisper from Labour.

Tories should stick to the facts. Tories should stick to the fixes.

Minnie Ovens

This made me chuckle.
Here is the great Stalinist party sending the even younger boy wonder to demand total authoritarianism from the Tories.
Ist nicht Klar?? Befeln sint Befeln.
Both Boy Wonders need to have their botties smacked. Terrorism and authoritarianism rules. OK

Hoolio

Prompted by this post to find out who/what the Cornerstone Group is, I happened upon the article referred to by Burnham at:

http://cornerstonegroup.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/the-nhs-at-60-%e2%80%93-by-peter-bone-mp/

Reference to Stalin in a debate about the NHS is probably unwise, but in an otherwise sensible article Mr Peter Bone, MP, concludes, "We have today a nationalised system of health rationing. I am not advocating the abolition of the NHS but instead ways to improve it".

Who could disagree with that?

IMHO, Mr Cameron should tweet to #ilovethenhs that he defends the likes of Mr Bone and Mr Hannan and their contributions to debate because we need a proper debate and not to be treated as fools by Stalinists such as Comrade Burnham. OK, so Dave, you might have to cut some of the text down to 140 characters.

logdon

Look at the picture for the clue.

Clutching at imaginary straws.

Quixotic or what?

TGF UKIP

The thing is THX1138, Hannan is and always will be a conservative whereas, as you have made perfectly clear, you are a right-on N. London Labour devotee of Blair who is currently besotted with The Heir and will vote Tory only as long as they remain a Green Social Democratic Party.

On the other hand, I, and I suspect a number of other Coffee Housers, will not be voting for the Tories as long as they remain a party not just fit for the likes of THX1138 but deliberately orientated to attract you and your fellow travellers.

Please feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood your previous (and explicit posts) on your views and normal political loyalties or if you have seen the light and actually converted to being a conservative then I apologize and am delighted but if you have then I'm afraid you'll need to find another party other than Dave's.

David Ossitt

THX1138.

"All parties have their nutters but Dave needs to shut people like Hannan up if he wants to keep people like me on board"

THX1138; you do leave yourself open to getting a bit of stick.

TGF UKIP at 6.58pm just about covers all and every answer.

The only thing that I would add; would be to ask a very simple question, why should you want David Cameron to stop Dan Hannan or enyone else from telling the truth, or just having a different opinion?

JohnAnt

'rescind'?
Has this Burnham boy ever left the student union?
Why no mention of 'peace-loving peoples', 'anti-fascist front', 'utterly reject', and 'demand the right to'?

Minnie Ovens

TGF UKIP
August 17th, 2009 6:58pm

Do you mean conservative or Conservative?
Upsetting that I have to ask!

THX1138

TGF I thought my post might wake you from your summer slumber, you're right of course I am voting Tory for first time because and I make no apology for it, Dave he has won me over, he is as Mrs T would say "one of us" and he most definitely represents what I believe In Hannan most definitely does not.

I have thought about this carefully and I'm convinced that I have not changed my position on anything fundamental to vote for Dave the Tories have simply moved to the ground that I sit on.

I'm glad that I won't be voting for the same party a large numbers of Coffee Housers if I was I would have to rethink my voting intentions as we disagree on practically everything although unlike some CH's like you understand that just because we disagree about politics it doesn't mean that we have to throw civility and good manners under a bendy bus.

Can we agree on one thing the need to get get rid of Brown? If so then the Conservative party need new recruits like me.

The likes of Hannan and his policies are not going to win the election and I don't think he is a Conservative in the Conservative Party sense, much more some fringe right wing UKIP'er with his 15 mins of fame in a quite news week. I found Dave slapping him down very reassuring and only went to reinforce my belief that Dave is the right man for the big job.

THX1138

David O I'm happy with the good natured knock about that I get from the likes of you Rhoda K and TGF it's all part of the fun It's the downright nastiness I can't abide for what "just having a different opinion".

"why should you want David Cameron to stop Dan Hannan"

Simple I don't want to reminded that people like Hannan whose views I thoroughly disagree with represent the party that I intend to vote for and judging by the speed Dave took to the airwaves to distance himself from Hannan (he went on Hannity for goodness sake) it seems Dave agrees with me.

TGF UKIP

"I have thought about this carefully and I'm convinced that I have not changed my position in anything fundamental to vote for Dave, the Tories have simply moved to the ground that I sit on."

Thank you, thank you, thank you THX1138. Week in and week out I bang on about Dave and his bunch of London exotics being about changing the True Blue Tory Party into their Social Democratic Green Party only to be routinely rubbished by the fanzine hacks and the likes of Tiberius and now along comes habitually Labour voting, Blair worshipping, Prius driving THX1138 and tells me I'm bang on. Thank you, thank, thank you!

However, while Dave is most emphatically one of you, he would most certainly not, had he been born in 1936 instead of 1966, been to Mrs Thatcher "one of us." Along with the Gilmours, Pyms and most of the other paternalistic, patrician toffs he would have been muttering about "that dreadful woman" and trying to sabotage and undermine everything she did.

And as far as the need to get rid of Brown and his loathsome bunch my position is that I fear less the marginal re-election of Labour with an unsustainable majority than the election of Dave and his pretend Tories. That way lies my ultimate nightmare of politically correct, ultra green social democrat government locked in for decades. Far better Dave be defeated, the Tory Party come to its senses and a proper conservative be elected its leader and smash Labour, socialism, and its little sister social democracy, to pieces for good and all.

TGF UKIP

Minnie Ovens, conservative or Conservative? Well one thing is stone cold certain and that is that Dave is no conservative and would be horrified to be considered such.

But as far as Conservative goes, well although the US Republicans would probably give their metaphorical right arm for the name The Conservative Party Dave and the gang, while being pretty embarrased by it (and even more by its membership and supporters) know the name is the key to the millions of votes they need to get them into power.

So they'll swallow hard, continue to call themselves the Conservative Party and then in power they can "come out" and be the Social Democrat Greens they truly are. Which will please THX1138 enormously.

David Ossitt

THX1138

Never in anger and certainly never to be nasty.

You loved Blair; you voted Labour as a result and also because you enjoyed being on the winning side.

Labour are doomed; you now see David Cameron, as you put it, as "one of us", and so you will now vote for him and be back on the winning side.

But as some Conservatives have tried to explain to you; David Cameron is not, as the blessed Margaret would have said "one of us".

Outside of the M25; there are hundreds of Conservative Associations throughout this land, who will work and fight with all of their time and energy to rid this country of Brown and to help elect Cameron.

But the thoughts and opinions; of most of the members of those Conservative Associations, have far more in comman with Dan Hannan, than they have with David Cameron.

You must see that Dan Hannan is a true Consevative.

David Ossitt

Small point never trust a man who is prettier than his wife.

Have you seen Andy Burnham's wife.

Major Plonquer

Will someone please remind me - who is this Andy Burnham character?

THX1138

David O

I did love TB (apart from the war) just like you loved Mrs T and who doesn't want to be on the winning side apart from maybe TGF who would rather sacrifice the country to another 5 years of Brown to satisfy his ideological purity rather than see a popular practical Conservative Party led by Dave in power.

I promise you that during the dark days of Mrs T it was hard being a Labour supporter and totally tribal , read John O'Farrells great book Things Can Only Get Better or go and see Billy Elliot the musical to see what I mean and the TB came to lead us out of the wilderness and to 3 election victories, my loyalty was always with TB rather than the Labour party.

David Cameron is "one of me" and that's why I will be voting for him and if Hannan and his ilk truly represent the grassroots of the Conservative Party which I doubt then they are more out of touch with modern Britain than I imagined.

General Zod

JohnAnt's diagnosis of Burnham is spot-on: he is stuck in student union politics.

He might as well have gone back to that late 80s/early 90s leftie student union cry of "no platform" with "for racism" replaced by "for critics of the NHS".

Minnie Ovens

TGF UKIP
August 17th, 2009 11:13pm

Thank you. An interesting response.
For a true US/UK alignment it might be that the Democrats are nearer to being similar to UK conservatives.
The GOP philosophy is not a well known beast in the UK, unfortunately.
Possibly near to the old Disraeli/Peel Tories.
I am intrigued at the significant difference between the UK and US definition of the word Democracy.
What we saw in the US was a good, all out battle between the forces of right and left.
What we see in the UK is a demand for authoritarian gagging by all parties upon each others free speech so that there is no debate.
That is between the Socialist left and the conservatives since the Conservatives seem to have little say inspite of being in a majority.
Some democracy.
And I wonder whether we are losing sight of real democracy here in the UK.