A bleak day for Scotland

Hereford

Fools, Knaves and Jakernapes the lot. Give them full independence and good riddance.

Polly Gamma

Can you get your contacts at Sky to pull the plug out on Kenny McGaskgill's microphone NOW Fraser Pleeease!

Martin C

In Scotland there ar two sides to the politics: left, and hard left. Both sides hate the USA, and both sides share the belief that 'America had it coming'. Why are we surprised then, that the 9/11 bomber is being flown home to a hero's welcome no doubt, on Gadhaffi's private jet?

GeoffH

"Plenty of terminally ill prisoners die in jail"

And that is a stain on the justice system and not a reason for withholding compassion from Megrahi.

On this occasion, Fraser, you have written a truly shocking piece of populist, vengeance-wringing opinion.

We, and the Scots, should be better than the Americans who are truly primeval in their thirst for revenge through the prison system.

PayDirt

The Scottish Justice Minister gave a very measured judgement deferring to the Almighty’s greater authority for meting out punishment followed by making a plug for the humanitarian aspirations of the Scottish people. I note the verdict of the Scottish Police: “too severe” to let him free to die in Scotland.

Border Reiver

There was not 'over-whelming' evidence against Meghrai. In fact it was most under-whelming,in aspects ranging from speculative forensics to witness bribery. It is a pity that because the wheels of justice turn so slowly and the sands of life drain away so quickly that an appeal could not have been heard. The right, just decision has been made. As for politicians saying the SNP are playing politics and leaking, well that is just rank hypocrisy.

Dirty Euro

It is a disgrace murderers of this sort should not be released, ever just because they are ill. He is evil he wrecked the lives of thousands of people. He was not doing self defense, he is just an evil scumbag who killed innocent people. I am fed up with showing mercy to evil people. It is obvious this is all over oil and dubious people getting deals, in the UK government. As usual evil crooks win again. This must be why the odious Biggs was released all a nasty little plot by the British elites to hide the real reasons for this release, all nasty little plot to get their hands on Libyan oil. By the way this is all to do with our civil service and elites in London. Blame out elites in London not the puppet governmnet.

The Bellman

It was a nauseatingly self-righteous performance. MacAskill has the patronising, sanctimonious cadences of a third-rate preacher. And he talked to Lorna Dunkley like he was addressing a subsession of the General Assembly.

David Lindsay

A very bad decision.

The appeal should never have been withdrawn. But it was. (For that matter, he should have been tried by a jury. But he wasn’t.) So he is legally guilty of 270 murders. People have died in prison, including of horrible conditions, while legally guilty of an awful lot less than that. The Scottish Justice Secretary has now called significantly into question the integrity and reliability of the Scottish justice system. That hardly seems like anything that a Scottish Nationalist should wish to do. It is certainly not anything that a citizen of the United Kingdom, within the fundamental documents of which Scots Law is specifically protected, should wish to do.

Kenny McAskill, and with him necessarily Alex Salmond, has gone feral, doing something like this merely because he can. Downing Street’s view on this matter of the utmost international sensitivity was made perfectly apparent when several of the Prime Minister’s closest American allies signed that letter. That view has been wholly disregarded. Merely because it can be.

Well, two can play that game. There are legion ways in which Whitehall and Westminster, never mind elements broadly classifiable under the Departments of State most directly concerned with this matter, can tread on Holyrood’s toes, if they are so minded. Which, as of this afternoon, they most definitely will be.

Ken Mac

Absolute rubbish. You have no conception of the separate nature of Scots Law or it's independence under the Act of Union never mind devolution. There are lots of questions over his guilt,it is complete nonsense to suggest this is Scotland thumbing its nose at Westminster. Remember this whole process was kicked off by Blairs secret and illegal deal with Gadaffi over prisoner exchange. MacAskill is right to show mercy to a dying man, its what differenciates us from the terrorists not to mention the illformed vengence seekers like yourself and the Americans.

AndyLeeds

This man is guilty of mass murder. He showed no mercy nor anything else to all those people he murdered. He should have died in Prison according to the law. A Life Sentence should in his case mean Life. This is not justice. It is quite obvious that the release of prisoners on license or on any other grounds should bve a reserve power.

Jenkins

Senator Edward Kennedy will no doubt claim that the decision supports terrorism, unlike his personal decision to support the freedom fighting IRA.

Dr Peter von Kaehne

It was a good decision and a wise decision.

We do not kick a dying dog, so we should show mercy to a dying fellow human being - even if he is a convicted mass murderer. It is right and proper to not act out of vengeance but to deliver justice and mercy.

Your slur about first-time politicians is as juvenile as it is offensive. FWIW, our SNP minority government seems to be able to get a whole lot more done that the clique running Westminster - despite their massive parliamentary majority.

Ian Walker

Western secular society is in a war of ideas against religious fundamentalism.

If we are to be horrified by the amputations or floggings that go under the name of "justice" in some parts of the world, then quid pro quo we need to show that our own justice system is based on fairness, impartiality and mercy.

The fact that "plenty of terminally ill prisoners die in jail" (I know how much you love statistics Fraser - have you got figures to back that up?) doesn't make it right.

The tabloid cry is frequently "they should be left to die in jail". If we took the humanitarian point of view and commuted that to "they should stay in jail until their life is over" then we could argue that this man's life is indeed now finished.

There seems to be some idea that this will be used as a propaganda coup by Lybia, or that he's somehow faking terminal cancer and will spend the next 20 years thumbing his nose at us from North Africa. In fact, he's just a sick man who wants to spend his last few months with his family.

And the society that I am part of, and that we're all fighting for, should let him.

Not Quite Hayek

"Why are we surprised then, that the 9/11 bomber is being flown home to a hero's welcome no doubt, on Gadhaffi's private jet?"

What 9/11 bomber?

Ben Murray

"There's no question of his guilt" - grow up, Fraser. This poor chap was the fall guy and got stitched up like the proverbial kipper. You just can't bring yourself to admit it.

And all those who choose to believe in Megrahi's guilt, and are piously reminding us that he showed his victims no compassion - well, that's what separates a civilised society from terrorism. Are we to let terrorists and criminals impose their morality on the rest of us? For pity's sake, can we not take some pride in our humanity without all this old testament talk of vengeance.

Today I'm proud to be Scottish.

Ken Mac

Andy Leeds. Again no idea about the law. Scots Law is independent not devolved. The UK government can't reserve the power.

Martin C. Every word you wrote is tripe. Everyone in Scotland believes America had it coming? Idiot. Can I also remind you that the plane crashed in our country and killed our citizens too.

David Lindsay

Martin C, Lance Grundy, are you having a laugh? The SNP has Hard Left activists. But it has neoliberal leaders and paleoconservative core voters. They are not called the Tartan Tories for nothing.

Indeed, the Tories' lack of success in Scotland is because its natural vote still turns out devoutly, but now votes for the SNP.

This is about annoying Gordon Brown, not about annoying America.

old fogey

What kind of politician is it that asks to be addressed as "Kenny", rather the more dignified Kenneth or even Ken. On that alone I cannot take this man seriously. If only Salmond et al realise how absurd they sound when referring to the Justice Minister..Kennny..

The Bellman

The wisdom or otherwise of this decision will hinge to a large extent on the reaction to it among our adversaries, and the deductions they make about our seriousness. This does not just mean the reaction on the streets of Tripoli when he returns.

There was more than a hint of adolescent narcissism, not untypically for British politics, that it doesn't matter how it looks to other interests, as long as we feel good about it. This is dangerously similar to President Clinton's belief that it doesn't matter if the US looks weak as long as he 'knew' - in spite of not being prepared to demonstrate - that it wasn't.

It is perhaps unreasonable to expect a minister in so parochial a jurisdiction as Scotland to understand the wider geo-political implications of this supposed 'mercy'; but it seems to me extremely unlikely that hostile powers will take this at the value MacAskill placed upon it, to see this as evidence of the moral superiority that he was so keen to labour. More likely, it will be taken as evidence of infirmity of purpose, and not a small dose of hypocrisy in the appeal to 'higher powers'. And regardless of the truth or otherwise of the backroom deals between Blair and Gaddafi, innuendo and allegations about it will persist, undermining yet again the authority and credibility of the British government, even to its own electorate.

Craig Strachan

I see the Rev Ian Galloway of the Church of Scotland has said that this decision has shown the world "what it means to be Scottish".

If so, the world may well conclude that to be Scottish is to be without any moral compass whatsoever.

Craig Strachan

GeoffH: "We, and the Scots, should be better than the Americans who are truly primeval in their thirst for revenge through the prison system."

The US justice system has its flaws, but it is responsive to the wishes of the people, as befits a true democracy.

David Lindsay

Jenkins, NORAID was funded directly and openly by Reagan’s CIA (at the same time as the IRA was also being funded by the KGB) because of the IRA campaign against the Workers’ Party.

Which certainly gives some context to Reagan’s great mate Margaret Thatcher’s officially denied, but in fact continuous, communication with the IRA, and to her signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

THX1138

I met Jim Swire on a train once he was convinced Al-Megrahi was innocent.

The Bellman

@Ian Walker: If only western society, secular or otherwise, were indeed engaged in a war of ideas with Islamist fundamentalism (I don't think, to be honest, there's much to be gained by fighting Buddhist or Sikh fundamentalism). I see no more evidence that "we're all fighting for" western civilisation than can be found to support President Obama's ludicrous and historically absurd assertion that the Cold War ended when "the world stood as one."

As it is, 'society' seems remarkably reluctant to recognise that any such engagement is taken place, unless it is to pre-emptively cede vital ground and key terrain.

Your post demonstrate that effortlessly by suggesting that keeping a terminally ill man in prison, where he receives opalliative care, is in some way equivalent to amputattions, or, implicitly, the death penalty for apostasy - or that our justice system is in some way conditional on the application of justice in other jurisdictions.

Verity

Dr Peter von Kaehne says "it is right and proper not to act out of vengeance ...".

Who said?

It's not our fault the fellow has cancer or whatever it is he's got. Why should his physical condition impede his sentence? - except the physical condition of being dead, of course.

A Healy

We wouldn't be having this problem if a capital verdict had been available to the judges .

oldfogey is correct . The false informality of the man wanting to be called "Kenny" at all times is nauseating , but no more so than all the other politicians who want to be known by their Christian names . It should be Mr. MacAskill or nothing .

I noticed , however , that he was keen on referring to the convict he was releasing as "Mr. Al-Megrahi" at all times .

Trivial , perhaps , but a reflection of his moral priorities .

rjohns

For information, although the SNP government may have formalized the process by changing all the signs on the buildings, the Scottish Executive has been referred to as the Government for a long time prior to their election - such as in this link - http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/12/04104414/1 - by the then Lib Dem Transport Minister in 2006. It had been established as a sensible pseudonym long before Salmond.

Jane

I think the decision to release this man on compassionate grounds was right. I say that because everything I have read about the atrocity suggests that the evidence against this man was weak and as another contributor stated above - he was the "fall guy". Some of the UK victim's families also acknowledge the probability of his innocence too. I also believe in the concept of compassion - this man was not in his own country and he should be with his family in his final days.

We are all used to the criminal justice systems of the country we live in. Our system ensures that regardless of wealth you are well represented in Court as top lawyers act for those on legal aid as well as those funding their own defence. We also have a system which ensures that the mentally ill offender is protected without having to reach an unreasonable mental health barrier which is present in many US states. We believe that the majority of youth offenders - no matter how heinous their crime do grow up and can be released from prison. We believe that many murderers can also be released if they do not constitute a threat to the public. We do not believe in the death penalty. Our system allows for the infrequent release of an individual on compassionate grounds.

We should welcome that we live in a society with a legal system as above. We punish people and we do consider the victims in every case. However, this is a unique case both legally and internationally. Whatever decision was reached would have been wrong in many eyes. I would have thought it wrong not to release him.

My only criticism relates to how the matter has been handled by the Scottish administration.

David Lindsay

Look, I don’t think he did it, lots of people don’t, and I can’t imagine that anyone seriously thinks he did it on his own (I mean, come on!).

But he is legally guilty.

And people have died in prison, including of cancer, while legally guilty of a hell of a lot less than the murders of 270 people.

Desperate Dan

I'd be more likely to think his trial wasn't a fix if his guilt or innocence had been decided by a jury.

Fergus Pickering

Scotch people are always proud to be Scottish. It is a permanent condition. It doesn't matter what they do or don't do, they remain proud to be Scottish. Here's to us. Who's like us? Damn few, and they're all dead!

The Laughing Cavalier

Listened to the aulde Scotch gasbag on the radio at lunch time. I thought he's never stop. Still, anything that pisses off Ted Kennedy, Hilary Clinton and Hopey Changey can't be all bad.

Ian Walker

@The Bellman

You failed to mention Christian and Jewish fundamentalism. Or are they on "our" side, perhaps? They're certainly not on mine.

Unlike the tango, it doesn't require two to make a war. The fact that one party is unwilling to participate, or even acknowledge the conflict, doesn't prevent it.

I fail to see how my post demonstrates that we are ceding anything, or any of the other points you make for that matter. Believing those things to be wrong and ours to be right implies no equivalence of the two; it is simply a matter of where you draw a line, not how far each side of the line something is.

The ability to show compassion and mercy within our justice system is surely a shining example of what is good about our society.

Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, water-boarding, Stockwell, 40-day detention; these are the things that we should be getting angry about. Every single one of them reduces our moral argument.

PS - Trying to elaborate on "plenty", there were 108 deaths from natural causes in 2008-09 (source PPO). The best figures I can find for compassionate release is 48 in the last five years.

ndm

-- And given that most victims were American, should he not pay more heed to the heartfelt pleas (new ones today) of the families of those killed?

A decent legal system is predicated upon justice not revenge. I realise there is much confusion of the two in the US. A confusion that a succession of Home Secretaries helped to import into Britain (sorry England).

Edward McLaughlin

Ian Walker

Now then, let me see, this one's a real teaser.

Am I more upset about people having a bag put over their head, water poured over it until they feel as if they are going to drown, until at the last second, it is stopped and they are taken away for a light supper, some dry clothes and a good night's rest; or or am I upset about people putting high explosives on civilian aircraft so that men, women and children plunge to the earth from 30,000 feet doused in burning avcat?

'things that we should be getting angry about'?

Will people like you ever wake up to reality?

Verity

Ian Walker says: "The ability to show compassion and mercy within our justice system is surely a shining example of what is good about our society."

It is not within the remit of our justice system to show compassion or mercy. That is the role of the victims and their families - the only ones who can forgive a crime.

George Laird

Dear Fraser

I read you piece.

MacAskill made the correct decision.

I am surprised that you should try and make the issue sound like petty GUU style politics.

This was a justice issue.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

JONNY

'no question of his guilt: the evidence against him was overwhelming,'

Not what I've been reading and hearing.

Craig Strachan

ndm: "A decent legal system is predicated upon justice not revenge"

Indeed, and eight years in prison for taking the lives of 270 people makes a mockery of the notion of justice.

Craig Strachan

Fergus Pickering: "Scotch people are always proud to be Scottish. It is a permanent condition. It doesn't matter what they do or don't do, they remain proud to be Scottish."

As a Scots-born US citizen, I can honestly say that I have never had cause to feel ashamed of the country of my birth -until today.

ndm

Lets provide some perspective on Fraser Nelson's phrase "these first-time politicians in Edinburgh."

From their respective Wikipedia entries:

-- Obama was elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996

-- After MacAskill became on MSP in 1999

MacAskill has almost the same amount of legislative experience as Obama, and having led the "Can't Pay, Won't Pay" campaign probably has more political experience as Obama.

But Wikipedia once again shows its weakness with the following paragraph added today:

-- On August 20, 2009 MacAskill released Pan Am Flight 103 bomber Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi on 'compassionate grounds'. MacAskill ordered the release over the objections of American diplomats so that Al Megrahi, who was terminally ill with prostate cancer, could return to his native Libya to die. This action was called "absolutely wrong" by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, "the product of some completely nonsensical thinking" by Tory leader David Cameron, and "an outrage" and a "caving in" by Senator Frank Lautenberg. Senator John Kerry, the former Democratic Presidential candidate, said that the decision "turn[s] the word 'compassion' on its head." Iain Gray, the Scottish Labour leader, said that "[t]he SNP's handling of this case has let down Scotland. Kenny MacAskill's conduct has damaged the Scottish Justice system and, in turn, Scotland's international reputation." Families of al-Megrahi's victims "were uniformly outraged and dismayed" by the decision, calling it "ludicrous," "appalling," "heartbreaking," an "absolutely horrible decision," and "an absolutely disgusting disgrace."

So much for Wikipedia's much vaunted neutral point of view.

anne allan

The evidence does appear rather shaky; for example, how on earth does a haberdasher remember a customer buying pyjamas some two years later? If business is really that slow, he'd be out of business.
Even fathers of girls lost in the tragedy have expressed their profound doubts.
BTW what is with African dictators and Scotland? Remember Idi Amin.

ndm

-- Indeed, and eight years in prison for taking the lives of 270 people makes a mockery of the notion of justice.

No, it does not. There should always be a role for compassion in justice. Claiming otherwise diminshes us.

logdon

Two conflated issues here.

If he's not guilty as many, including the Eye, believe, letting him free on 'compassionate grounds'is not justice, merely a cop out.

This stinks.

Watching, Kenny Boy and that whining woman from Glasgow University who heads a department devoted entirely to this issue on Newsnight almost voided my will to live.

And no mention here of Mandy's meeting with Ghadaffi's son and the closure of a massive oil deal whilst in Corfu.

Add that to the toxic mix and the odour of corruption wafts to the heavens.

Ian Walker

@Edward McLoughlin

But that isn't the choice, is it? The question is whether you believe that the system is there for vengeance, or whether it's there to uphold society's values. Our society thinks that allowing a terminally ill man to "rot in jail" thousands of miles from his family and home is a bad thing. You might disagree, I don't. Our society currently thinks that incarcerating people without trial and torturing them is alright. I certainly disagree with that.

The thing is, once we as a society decide where these "lines in the sand" are, we can't change our minds for the sake of revenge.

As for 'waking up to reality', the IRA missed me twice (Oxford St and the Baltic Exchange) and Al Quaeda missed me once (at Aldgate tube), so I feel wide awake, thanks.

@Verity - I specifically left out forgiveness. Compassion and mercy are for all of us, or do you refuse to give to charity because it doesn't help your relatives?

Craig Strachan

ndm: "There should always be a role for compassion in justice"

Yes, until the role of compassion turns justice on its head, as in this case.

Dirty Euro

It is a reverse logic world. We all know it is some crooked oil barons forcing a sick deal. It is a sick sick elite in the UK. Biggs was released to warm us up. It is all deeply nasty. Some wealthy connected guy will make a killing on some oil company with oil deals in Libya. None of us will benefit but the UK government moves it is buttocks to help some wealthy crook, get his hands on oil money. This is third world stuff as usual.

Kelly-Ann

Today is the day the Union died!

hadrian

As a staunch Scot 'of the old school' ie a calvinist, I think your analysis is only half accurate. The bit that's missing is the underlying sentimentality of our essentially humanistic politicians. Hence, as another poster on this thread reminds us, the release of the equally vile Biggs down south. I am quite prepared to believe our MSPs were playing politics to some degree over this affair but I remain firmly convinced it was the humanistic 'sympaty for the culprit', never blame anyone for being simply wicked, that in the end topped it in favour of this creature. I think the common perception up here is that the evidence wasn't quite as solid as in actual fact it certainly was to nail him and admittedly there were other, shadowy figures very likely pulling his strings. None of that excuses McAskill's drearily predictable decision. Once again our Scottish Parliament is exposed as a hideously costly mistake.Any body proud of that trashy building has to have a few slates missing and the rest sliding...

over

Crystal Bullet

It was Lord Fraser who, as Lord Advocate, initiated the Lockerbie prosecution. Then he led the “no” campaign to Scottish devolution and the Holyrood Inquiry into the budget overspend. Which, if any, was the biggest establishment whitewash he presided over? The referendum on Scotland’s devolution, not Lockerbie, was the role he led least competently. Lord Fraser is better skilled at judging debate than debating. I remain as confident as one could ever be on such a matter that holding Libya, but perhaps not Al-Megrahi himself, as culpable is correct.

Archie Wedderspoon

I must say I thought that the decision to release him was probably right, until that old gasbag the Rev. Ian Galloway held forth on the subject.

cuffleyburgers

Let's not forget that the deal under which this man was jailed in exchange for Libya coming clean about her nuclear ambitions took place on Blair's watch.

Once you factor that in it all makes sense, with Blair out of the way, this man dying doubtless Libya threatened to expose the deal (and thereby scupper blair's chances of being eu president) unless he was released, so cue a nonsensical decision to release r. biggs to as one poster above, soften us up, followed by this.

We should call blair the fishmonger - everything he touched eventually stinks to high heaven.

Tony E

This is probably an oil based piece of real politic. The Americans can make as much noise as they like but they know what is happening, and if anything, they are more cynical in their dealings than this.

Blunt truth is that Megrahi's extradition was about oil in the first place, an opportunity for the Libyan government to bring itself back into the international fold and start to really exploit its natural resourses, (rather than base its prosperity on training nearly all the international terrorist groups of the 70's & 80's for cash)

If this deal helps secure further years of cheaper energy for the UK, then it's probably justified as more people in this country are affected now by high energy prices driving firms out of business than they are by the horrible act of bombing the Pan Am flight.

It stinks, as does the actions of Libya in granting Megrahi a heroes welcome, but this is how politics and international horse trading has always been done, it's just more obvious now because of the 24 hour news media.

Fraser Nelson

Hadrian, the sentimentality of politicians is supposed to be checked by their need for re-election.

Dr Peter von Kaehne and ndm, in 1999 they were first-time politicians. In fact, in 1999, MacAskill was being arrested for being drunk and disorderly at a Scotland/England playoff in Wembley.

And ndm, there is of course a role for compassion - but also one for justice. Five judges found him guilty of 270 counts of murder, for which he served eight years.And he got off, I suspect, partly because he allowed the SNP to say "We're standing up to America".

And now for the Newsnight-style Scottish opt-out....

rjohns, I was in the press conference where Tom McCabe made those kite-flying references to the "Scottish government" and remember how No10 came down on them like a tonne of bricks, with that immortal Brian Wilson quote "they can call themselves the White Heather club if they want but they'll never be a government". He was right. For Salmond, the no1 result out of all this is the phrase "Scottish government" repeated world over. In his head, this means the jump to independence will be all the smaller if his referendum ever comes.

And, George Laird, I was a QMU guy.

Andy Leeds

Fraser,

I agree with you. There is a role for compassion and for mercy (which is actually what we are talking about) in the justice system, but that system is about Justice. Those 270 people who Al Megrahi murdered have not received justice. Al Megrahi should have stayed in Prison.

There seems to be little compassion from some posters for those who died on that terrible day, and for all those who suffer from their loss to this day. I think some should dwell more on that than on this worthless murderer.

The Bellman

@Ian Walker: The RUC, Special Branch and MI5 devoted relatively little effort to tackling the threat from Cornish nationalists when the primary threat to the nation was from Irish Republicanism. I chose not to mention Jewish and Christian fundamentalists for similar reasons, not because I think 'they are on 'our' side'. Plenty of people - perhaps you are one - would assert that the Bush-Blair axis of evil was such, in which case the secular democratic process seems to have - eventually - delivered the 'right' result. Anyway, if you find any Christian fundamentalists at large in the UK plotting the mass murder of their fellow citizens, shouting 'Ad maiorem Dei gloriam' as they self-detonate on the Tube, I'm sure you'll let us know, and I'll concede the point.

You are quite right that it does not take two to wage a war. My point - perhaps I was being obtuse - was that very few in 'the west' wish to acknowledge the struggle against (as you call it) 'religious fundamentalism'. You attribute to this struggle a weight of effort and seriousness of purpose that I cannot detect in the routine pronouncements and actions of our political leaders, most of which seem designed to reassure people that there's nothing much to see, it's just a big phooey got up by Bush/neocons/etc, and would disappear if only we're nice enough to everyone and if true to our values they will take us at our own estimation. This is, I thought I had made clear, not a credible position.

Although I certainly do not wish to suggest we have carte blanche to disregard our values, I do not think that the grievances you list are in this case relevant in the way you suggest. MacAskill's judgement explicitly says that al Megrahi was guilty, and his release does not alter that fact. The case is therefore still open to inclusion in the AQ narrative as an example of a 'western' miscarriage of justice, but now with the bonus of the chance to accuse 'us' of hypocrisy and moral weakness, as Tony E's points about Realpolitik suggest.

Besides, examples like Guantanamo, Stockwell etc are in any case evidence of a legal and security framework in temporary flux as it seeks belatedly to come to terms with the challenges of - ahem - 'religious fundamentalist' terrorism. Compare that with the laws in some 'religious fundamentalist' lands, where such evolution is nigh-on impossible.

Incidentally, I am surer than many posters here seem to be of MacAskill's sincerity, and I do not want to belittle the difficulty of the decision, merely the tone in which he announced it. But, as Alex Massie asks overleaf of MacAskill's more vehement critics, it would be nice if just occasionally people could allow the slightest possibility that the decisions that led to Guantanamo, Stockwell etc were made in good faith and by people every bit as determined to do 'the right thing' in difficult circumstances as Mr MacAskill.

Anyway, as I see it, the struggle is made much harder by the determination to see moral equivalence between 'our' methods and those of antithetical jurisdictions. Your attempt to imply that the continued imprisonment of al Megrahi - in conditions somewhat better than the average Libyan jail - somehow 'invalidates' our criticisms e.g. of beheadings in KSA and mass executions in China is such an equivalence. When we make such assertions, we cede ground to our adversaries.

ndm

Fraser Nelson -

-- Dr Peter von Kaehne and ndm, in 1999 they were first-time politicians.

But neither Obama nor MacAskill are today - which is what counts. Churchill too was a first-time politician at some point in his career.

-- And ndm, there is of course a role for compassion - but also one for justice. Five judges found him guilty of 270 counts of murder, for which he served eight years.And he got off, I suspect, partly because he allowed the SNP to say "We're standing up to America".

Six years ago the US President and the British Prime Minister launched an attack on Iraq that led to the deaths of tens if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. The moral and legal failure that led to their deaths remains unpunished. Where is their justice?

Your suspicion of the motive of the SNP leadership seems unfounded. It is the English and American political response which appears rote and formulaic. Of course, Obama must appear tough on any issue of law and order because that is the way in America (although anyone with a conscience must ask why he prefers to look forward and turn away from justice with regard to the torture performed unlawfully under his predecessor.)

I think the Rev. Ian Galloway, Convenor of the Church of Scotland, caught what justice has traditionally meant in Scotland when he said:

-- This was not about whether one man was guilty or innocent. Nor is it about whether he had a right to mercy but whether we as a nation, despite the continuing pain of many, are willing to be merciful.

-- I understand the deep anger and grief that still grips the souls of the victims' families and I respect their views, but to them, I would say justice is not lost in acting in mercy.

-- Instead our deepest humanity is expressed for the better. To choose mercy is the tough choice and today our nation met that challenge.

I realise this sentiment may not be fashionable in a post-Thatcherite Britain but a Scotland lacking that sentiment is a worthless Scotland.

By far the most interesting commentary, other than that of Alex Massie, I have seen on this issue is that of David Kurtz on Talking Points Memo. Kurtz writes:

-- While we share a common legal tradition with the UK, our own legal system increasingly seems like a moribund vestige of our common history, rather than a self-sustaining creation which we continue to ratify and renew. On a gloomy day, it's hard for me to envision the U.S. adopting the Anglo-American system today if we were starting from scratch. As it is, our legal system labors under enormous tension between who are now and the values we once idealized. MacAskill's statement, regardless of how you view his decision, is a living, breathing example of those legal traditions being carried forward in practice, not merely as totems from another time.

MacAskill's statement is a reminder of the moral instruction a small nation like Scotland can give the World.

JohnMcDonald

For all the Tory/Labour/LibDem huffing and puffing the future of Scotland will be decided by the people of Scotland,in Scotland and for Scotland.

That demonstration of self-determination yesterday is yet a further harbinger of Scotland's future.

So Fraser, I'd spit out those boules before you choke on them.

JohnAnt

I can understand the Scots being proud of being Scottish.
After all, whether they're proud or not, when they wake up tomorrow, they'll still be Scottish, so they might as well make the best of it!

Edward McLaughlin

Just an update to mention the revolting spectacle of this man who remains a convicted mass-murderer, being feted as a hero on his return to his home country, there we are told, to serve out his sentence near his family. How sweet.

Well I don't think he'll see the inside of any prison cell after that welcome.

And there's a fair chance that his 'terminal' condition might do an Ernest Saunders in the next few weeks. Hope I'm wrong but worth a look to see if Ladbrokes are offering dates/odds.

Perhaps we could run a Speccie sweepstake?

hughie

well i believe that the guy was a scapegoat.

did he do it on his own? where are the collaborators?

why the scottish legal system - because the evidence didn't need to be disclosed at that time?

the attack was probably iranian revenge for the yanks shooting down their airliner with the pilgrims going to mecca and propably arranged by that palenstinian group pflc-gc.

the toshiba radio & semtex wasn't a libyan method.

the cia was allowing the running of drugs on that flght and were in attandance so they are involved.

libya probably agreed to be scapegoats to end sanctions and get in on business / oil deals.

all the current rhetoric in the press is guff because the truth is known by the cia, obama, brown, blair, the scottish judges, gadffi et al....

blair has just managed to pull off a big oil deal with gadaffi - no link i guess.

the only thing i can't get my head around and would like to know, is why al-megrahi specificlly was chosen as the scapegoat by libya? money, threats or what?

Scott Dunbar

I believe the right decision was made. 'IF' he was guilty as judged let he and his sponsors reflect on an action by a Western society that shows a true and greater compassion than the need for revenge. Don't sully it with politics.It is certainly not through the Washington or London approach that issues will be resolved. I hear John McCain is now engaged in trying to sell arms to Libya. Ho hum.

Verity

Scott Dunbar - I am afraid you are ignorant about Islam. "IF he was guilty s judged let he and his sponsors reflect on an action by Western society that shows a true ... compassion than the need for revenge."

Yes, indeed. They will reflect on it and see it as weak, weak, weak. As, indeed, judged by their Weltanschuuang, it is.

hadrian

Megrhi's crime was a capital one- many times over. If Verity is correct- which she absolutely is- in her assertion that the source of compassion remains exclusively with the victim it logically follows that none can be extended in this case. He was found guilty on credible evidence and should have been executed long ago. Once again humanistic sentimentality and ooverriding hatred of authority simply results in stirring up terrible wounds for the secondary victims in this case- the murdered souls' families.
Sadly, Fraser when I was at Glasgow University we had no choice of student union- I was therefore in the rather execrable GU!!

JohnAnt

In the past, when a convicted felon wanted pardon, he/she had to petition the Crown. Because the judges and the justice system were not competent to issue pardons, and would be politically compromised in doing so.
But now in NuBritain a Scottish footbaw' fan in a suit cawd Kenny pretends to deal out 'supreme justice' on behalf of a region of the UK that is still ruled by the Crown.
Tell you what, let's force Scotland to become independent. Then they can make all the 'decisions' they want to. But we shan't have to pay for it or have to explain to our oppos abroad that Scotland doesn't actually have a government, but we can't prevent them from pretending they do.
Evevn Obama - used to Chicago politics as he is - finds that a difficult one to get his head round.

RobC

I conjure up in my mind a set of justice scales - on one side
270 innocent victims blown to smithereens and shown,by that very act, absolute zero in the compassion stakes. On the other side of the scales one of the convicted perpetrators who is now free on"compassionate grounds".
Scottish Justice I would submit is now the 271st victim of that appalling outrage and Mcaskill should hang his head in shame.

logdon

Lockerbie bomber's release linked to trade deal, claims Gaddafi's son
Colonel Muammar Gaddafi’s son, Saif, claimed the release of the Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi, was linked to trade deals between Britain and Libya.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6070357/Lockerbie-bombers-release-linked-to-trade-deal-claims-Gaddafis-son.html

So much for 'compassion'?

Complete baloney and indicative, if any more evidence is needed, of the lying ways of politicians who would sell their own souls in return for power and personal prosperity.

If this is devolved Scottish politics, let them have their independence.

Two birds with one stone as without all those north of the border ex trade union MP's what chance has Labour got in England?

logdon

On 'Scottish compassion', the nation with the highest murder rate in Europe.

The rank hypocrisy which steams off the piles of ordure otherwise known as Kenny-boy and his willing cohorts is exposed in this single statistic.

And reduces him to a national laughing stock.

Or maybe I can add 'should', as we all know in the bent nation which passes for Britain right now any lie is possible and any injustice is permissable, just as long as the right boxes are ticked.

Read it all plus my ref. in the previous post and weep.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/6069329/Lockerbie-bomber-The-SNP-cosying-up-to-Libya-has-shamed-my-nation.html

"Proof of the naivety lay in the scenes which greeted Megrahi on his return to Libya in the company of Colonel Gaddafi's son, arms raised in joint salute. MacAskill's protestations that Megrahi was sent home to die within three months – which remains to be seen – failed to take account of the fact that a lot of propaganda hits can be scored and a mountain of unnecessary additional grief caused within a lot less than three months. And that is exactly what the Libyans waltzed round MacAskill to achieve.

"The Scots are a compassionate people," trumpeted MacAskill, in yet another crass generalisation intended to announce to the puzzled world: "We are different. We are better." But there are quite a few problems in hiding behind the mantle of compassion. For starters, and as with any other people, it is only partly true. A nation with the highest murder rate in Europe is not universally compassionate. Like everyone else, some Scots are compassionate, others cruel. Some are forgiving, others retributive. The point about MacAskill's utterances was that clearly he had been influenced by a desire to give substance to a self-image which is at best a half-truth, but also irrelevant.

For how do you practise "compassion" in this context? It is by no means self-evident that it is the mass murderer who merits that commodity, as opposed to the thousands of mourners his victims left behind. MacAskill is entitled to make his subjective judgment. What he is not entitled to do is attribute his conclusion to some Scottish trait, of which he claims to be the personification."

JohnAnt

Some good analysis in the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/world/europe/22lockerbie.html?_r=1&hpw
"On Friday, Lord Trefgarne, chairman of the Libyan British Business Council, said Mr. Megrahi’s release had opened the way for Britain’s leading oil companies to pursue multibillion-dollar oil contracts with Libya, which had demanded Mr. Megrahi’s return in talks with British officials and business executives.

Lord Trefgarne told the BBC that talks on oil contracts had “not moved as fast as we would have hoped and expected” since Tony Blair, then prime minister, met in a tent in Libya five years ago with Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, the Libyan leader, and set the terms for the “deal in the desert” that sketched a reconciliation between Colonel Qaddafi’s pariah government and the West.

British business executives had made no secret of their intense lobbying for a prisoner transfer treaty proposed by Mr. Blair and Col. Qaddafi and finally ratified by Britain and Libya in April; before Mr. Megrahi’s cancer diagnosis, that treaty was seen as the most likely avenue for his return to Libya. But his cancer, and a finding by medical specialists that he was not likely to live more than three months, cleared the way for his release on compassionate grounds. “Perhaps now, with the final resolution of the Lockerbie affair, as far as the Libyans are concerned, maybe they’ll move a bit more swiftly,” Lord Trefgarne said...."
And this:
"Downing Street aides said Mr. Brown was appalled by the celebrations, and they insisted that responsibility for the release rested solely with the Scottish government.

But the Scottish justice secretary, Kenny MacAskill, announcing the release on Thursday, pointed to the disengaged attitude of the Brown government as one of his reasons for approving the release. He said officials in London had shunned his request for advice on the matter, and withheld information he sought about reports that Britain had given guarantees to the United States at the time of Mr. Megrahi’s conviction that he would serve out his full term in Scotland."
And this -
But even Mr. Salmond could not escape suggestions that oil interests were a powerful if unacknowledged factor. Yields from Scotland’s own oil industry have been diminishing, and some critics in Scotland suggested that Mr. Salmond, a former oil economist for a Scottish bank, might have seen long-term benefits for Scotland beyond its reputation for compassion."
Indeed.
Can Mr Salmond tells us if he and/or the '79 Group', a clandestine extreme left-wing movement within the SNP, had any contacts direct or indirect with
Libyan organisations during his activist membership, between 1979 and 1981?
Forgive the question: it's just that Libyan intelligence had secret contacts with most such extreme left-wing party and union groupings in Britain at that time.

ndm

logdon writes:

-- But there are quite a few problems in hiding behind the mantle of compassion. For starters, and as with any other people, it is only partly true. A nation with the highest murder rate in Europe is not universally compassionate. Like everyone else, some Scots are compassionate, others cruel. Some are forgiving, others retributive.

Anyone familiar with the Scottish crime statistics knows that the problem is not that some Scots are "cruel" and "retributive" but that a very small number of Scots are willing to knife someone when they are under the influence of alcohol or drugs. The echo of "some" and "others" in Logon's comment becomes meaningless in the reality that "some" includes 99.997% of the population of Scotland.

David Lindsay

The SNP is a big business party with its heartland in the North East of Scotland. It has oil coming out of every pore.

If anyone still doubts the need for clean coal technology and for nuclear power, then the answer is now "Lockerbie".

Oh, well, we should at least get a public inquiry now. And when MSPs reconvene on Monday, then there will be, as there always are, far more of them not from the SNP than from it. So if they wanted Kenny McAskill's scalp, then they could certainly have it. And if his, then how not Alex Salmond's?

What a shambles devolution is, when something like this can happen! And are the SNP just first-timers out of their depth, with no idea what the unwritten rules are? Or are they a lot more sinister than that?

logdon

GeoffH
August 20th, 2009 2:06pm

"Americans who are truly primeval in their thirst for revenge through the prison system."

All of them? Shurely shome mishtake?

hadrian

Americans primeval in their thirst for revenge...what a load of insulting s**t.
Whilse, we, delightfullly enlightened 'Liberals' presumably are truly primeval in our thirst for awarding criminalaity and wickedness.

Derek

Verity at 4.43pm: ' Dr Peter von Kaehne says "it is right and proper not to act out of vengeance ...".

Who said?'

The answer, unfortunately, is - God. (Romans 12.19; Deuteronomy 32:35)

Vengeance, however, does not seem to be the issue here. Rather, the question is whether justice has been done.

Setting aside the fact that this was an intensely political trial and focusing on the quality of Scottish justice, it is possible to make two connected observations:

Either Mr.Megrahi is innocent, in which case his conviction has been a miscarriage of justice;

or,

Megrahi is guilty of murdering 270 people in which case his release has been a miscarriage of justice. How so, you ask.

The release would be a miscarriage of justice because the sentence of 27 years in prison was an insufficiently long sentence, since if the man had been tried and sentenced separately for the murder of each victim his prison term would have stretched to kingdom come. Instead, 270 divided by 27 = one year in jail for each person he murdered. Is that the going rate in Scotland?

Justice is tempered by mercy,though not by compassion. The court did not however think it appropriate to show mercy expressly in this case, though it might be inferred that the sentence of 27 years for 270 murders implies its exercise at the time of sentence.

The question of "compassion" on the other hand is a political one; the Scottish Justice Minister is a political figure; his decision was a political decision; his immediate masters are politicians.

As a political decision, the exercise of discretion by the Scotch Justice Minister invites investigation. Was it because he knew a miscarriage of justice had been committed by the sentencing of an innocent man? Or did he ignore or not recognize the miscarriage of justice reflected in the short sentence for a mass murderer?

In the meantime, with regard to those who committed the crime of the Lockerbie bombing, whoever they may be, and with respect to all the islamofascists who support them, perhaps we can take comfort from assurance elsewhere that "their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste".

Derek

@ Tony E August 21st, 2009 8:57am

I notice that in blogs in which there is a Middle Eastern theme, some character always pops up to state that it's all about oil and then to lambast the Americans with the perception EXCEPT where the American administration is, as at present under Obama, strong-arming the besieged 7 million Israelis to give up their land, their lives and their sacred honour.

Jez

There seems to be quite a bit of debate on the length of this convicted fellows sentence.

270 murders.

Let's see....

How longs a piece of rope?

And if it wasn't him- then wo was it then.

JohnAnt

Today's revelations put the bits of the puzzle together. It's clear that Blair had fostered the prisoner exchange agreement with Libya just to release Megrahi into Libyan custody. That for some reason the agreement was not fully in place as of last month, to the annoyance of the Libyans. They threatened to cut off diplomatic relations, to the horror of Mandelson and UK business interests. As a result, the freeing of Megrahi was urged on the SNP justice dept by Westminster as a way out of the impasse.
Luckily for them, the SNP was daft enough to do it anyway, without needing much prompting.
So Megrahi was freed, with consequences obvious to the rest of us, but which appear to have come as a complete surprise to the numpty toy politicians in Whitehall and Edinburgh.
Btw, is no Speccie journalist going to start a more up-to-date thread on this? Is anybody there?

Derek

@ JohnAnt. Interesting information.

Good point also on updating this thread. I would suggest the the Spectator adopt a policy that any thread receiving above an agreed number of comments move it to the front page so it can be continued without having to track back for it or having people forget its existence.

@ Hereford. You posted the first comment on this thread and called for the Scots to be given their independence. I think the last thing we want is for an independent Scottish government re-establishing "the Auld Alliance" or, in a more 21st century version of it, the Al Alliance. The present British government has weakened our defences enough already without us having to face enemy bases in the north or Scotch armies subsizdized by muslim governments threatening to march south and stirring up trouble in the north of England. The threat of a Scottish alliance with one of our enemies was one that the Union was designed to put an end to.

Annexation or status quo ante devolution would be a wiser solution.

Victoria

Aside from the political weeping and bantering I realise the lack of compassion this shows towards the victim's families, but this man is dying. The rapturous greeting, nor his own conviction was anything of his choice. And I am a Brit.

Some people disagree with the decision vehemently (as shown by Fraser's post), but if life means life and this man was proven to be innocent then you would all have to stand at your graves, since you wish death upon him so freely.

I am proud of Gordon Brown for remaining schtum on the issue, since for us Brits, this is and was a question purely for the Scottish Judicial System. It had nothing to do with Westminster.

I was disappointed to see David Cameron and his party jump on the political bandwagon, trying to gain brownie points; either from the US, or those who act with a vengeance in this country. With the previous NHS scandal created by his party, however, I can hardly expect for his words to reflect the needs of the people.

As for the US government, hypocrites. They are the first to ask for compassion, but the last to administer it. Dare I bring up the number of Palestinians who have died as a result of their funding in Israel; or the number of innocents of people they've killed in the many wars they have staged. Their mission: for the greater good of protecting Western values. Hypocrites.

Crystal Chandelier

@Victoria: The families of the Lockerbie dead are not the US government, nor are the families of the 58 British dead. They are not directly responsible for the policies of their government, and certainly not for the actions of the Israeli government. If a request for compassion on behalf of those citizens makes the US government hypocrites, your simplistic elision makes you a damned fool, and an apologist for every murderer who beheads a US citizens for no better reason than that his government supports torture/sponsors war crimes/your choice of sixth form debating club cliche.

harpie

Release him! He was a political prisoner. Mr Brown released him before the truth came out.

Bouchard

I have an idea to kill two birds with one stone.
Lets deport all the muslims to scotland and bulid a modern Hadrains wall and then give Scotlandabad its independences , There , we have got rid of all the muslims and got rid of the scots at the same time , we can even send a gift from the queen to Alex samon of a new st andrews cross blue burka for his wife they can have whats left of the north sea oil to make the new scottish muslims feel at home lol.

Bouchard

lets deport all the muslims in England to scotlandbad and build a new hadrians wall and then give scotland its independence, we can even give alex samons wife a new st andrews coloured burka for scottish ramadam lol