An apology for Alan Turing

Robert123

It was a travesty that Turing wasn't given a knighthood, let alone that he was castigated and castrated. Everyone must sign!

Paul B

He has my signature. To think that this country could convict and then chemically castrate a person for nothing more than having a (consensual)sexual relationship with another adult,quite revolts me. Barbaric. This only just over fifty years go. We may have problems as a society today, but on balance, I think I would rather live in 2009 than 1952.

Andy

Signed

Peter from Maidstone

Why should there be an apology? From whom to whom? The law was broken. Will there be apologies for everyone convicted of a crime which does not seem criminal to others today? What if the social cycle turns again? Will their be posthumous convictions? Such apologies are entirely a manifestation of PCism. They do not help Alan Turing and are simply part of a contemporary political agenda. I would not sign such a petition, nor apologise for slavery. History is what it is. This is what would be expected of New Labour - trying to remake history to suit itself.

Nadine Spears

signed

anne allan

The past is another country.
We have rightly changed our attitude to homosexuality, but that doesn't alter the fact that Turing broke the law of the land as it was in 1952.
In 1952 you could drink and drive and smoke in pubs. Just as we're amazed at Turing's treatment, so his generation would be amazed at the current taboos.

Charles Flaccidwidger

Signed.

Catherine in Athens

A permanent statue of Turing should be placed on the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square in recognition of as great a hero as Nelson.

FredrikI

If i were an briton i would definetly sign this petition....

Fergus Pickering

I will sign the petition mainly because I consider the law against homosexual acts disgusting and barbaric. But why was Turing a hero? Do you know what hero means? Wasittgenstein a hero? Was Charles Dickens a hero? You can't play fast and loose with the meanings of words.

stereodog

Why does this petition have to use the word apology? Would a petition expressing gratitude for his work and sympathy for his fate any less meaningful?

Disillusioned

I'm with Peter from Maidstone (not in that way), but he's dead right. Who the hell are we apologising to? This is a silly, silly, pointless petition.

Christopher

I agree with Catharine in Athens. He should be on the fourth plinth in the Trafalgar Square. That is the place to commemorate those responsible for our military victories. Turing’s achievement was at least as notable as those of the men already celebrated there.

Ray

Peter from Maidstone is right. Turing broke the law of the lands as it was in his day. Whether that law was unjust or otherwise is besides the point.

That said, Turing was a truly titanic (if sadly overlooked) figure to whom this nation owes a debt of gratitude it can never repay. The least that can be done is some form of posthumous recognition of his awesome achievements to be made.

THX1138

What Paul B says!

Peter from Maidstone what a load of BS and cheap political point scoring, just sign the petition without Turing think how many more sailors would have lost their lives and the country might have starved.

Turing is a national hero- Everybody should sign

Philip Walker

I'm a mathematician, so Turing is ingrained in my professional consciousness and not merely a national one. His death was a tragic injustice and a travesty of law. Inasfar as we can properly regret it, it is greatly to be regretted.

However, I don't see to whom we can be apologising, or why we now should apologise. Is it not sufficient to mark Turing's death, to say it is greatly to be regretted, to observe that we have happily changed the law, and to express our desire that no homosexual ever be hounded to suicide again?

Peter from Maidstone

THX1138, you are missing the point of this thread. We are not being asked to honour Turing's achievements, which I would gladly do. We are asking to apologise because his homosexuality was not accepted in 1952. That I will not do. I am not a party political person at all so I am not sure why you think I am scoring any sport of political points, whether cheap or not. Will you be apologising for the Charge of the Light Brigade, or for the suppression of the Peasants Revolt? Or for every historical event you disagree with or wish hadn't happened? What about the regicide of King Charles I? Or for every worker sent to Australia for joining a union. I doubt it. I am all for praising Turing's achievements but I do not need to apologise to him for anything.

JONNY

It is hard to think of any single person, bar Churchill, who made a more significant and telling contribution to victory than Alan Turing.
We owe him not an apology but a statue.

Carl Gardner

I'm against apologies like this. I think Alan Turing was a great man, and what happened to him was awful. I also think it's very good that the law has changed since then and that gay rights have advanced. I'd like to see gay marriage in the UK - not just civil partnerships, although I'm in favour of them.

But no one in government now did this to Alan Turing, and he's not alive; no apology to anyone else has any real emotional effect it seems to me. I'm equally against apologies of any kind for specific wrongs given by people who weren't responsible to people who didn't suffer them.

A much better tribute to Turing would be the statue someone suggested in Trafalgar Square. Or perhaps more funding to allow schools to visit Bletchley Park.

Call me Infidel

I would gladly honour Turing's achievements, he was a brilliant man, but honestly, what point does an apology serve? As Peter from Maidstone observes where do you draw the line?

Ben Stevenson

Turing was a remarkable scientist.

As far as I can see, the only point of apologising for the fact a man was prosecuted for breaking the laws of the land is to make a statement about what should or should not be illegal.

Surely if someone breaks the law they should be prosecuted. The law of the land should apply to everyone equally, whether a genius or not.

The petition is obviously more about the social acceptability of homosexuality than anyone's achievements.

If people want to make the case that certain sexual activities should not be appropriate then fine. But our society always has, and still does, use the law to regulate what sexual activities are allowed.

Verity

I agree with Peter from Maidstone, Philip Walker, Stereodog and others.

Turing was a genuis and a patriot and we have everlasting reason to be grateful to him. And we should most assuredly honour him with a statue on the Fourth Plinth. I think that is a superb suggestion.

But I had nothing to do with his awful persecution and therefore have nothing to apologise for. And apologising on the part of other people is arrogant in the extreme. What we now regard as unjust was a proper, legal punishment for what was then on the statute books as a crime.

No one here was guilty of punishing Turing, and it is not up to us to apologise for something we had no part in and no say on. This is a cloying, sentimental lefty construct and I don't like it.

I think the idea of honouring this great intellect and patriot with a permanent statue on the Fourth Plinth is an ace idea. I hope someone contacts Boris about it and I hope it comes about.

Elf

Fergus, he was a hero not because of his huge intellect but because he used it to find a way to crack the enigma codes, a breakthrough that almost certainly saved lives and contributed significantly to the eventual victory. Dickens and Wittgenstein might have been men of genius (the latter, certainly) but neither played a crucial role in a national struggle of such magnitude.

alan scott

Apologies for legal situations now well surpassed are out of time and stupid (witness various "statesmen" apologising for 200 plus year old "atrocities").
Recognise Turing's great contribution to the War Effort appropriately: a posthumous Knighthood. Witness the various idiots and corrupt swine now receiving peerages and knighthoods!
Is there any rule against such posthumous recognition? If there is, it shouldn't trouble New Labour who have managed to undermine our Constitution and Institutions so successfully, to fix it.
And Manderson should be the Proposer - if he had the guts.

Peter from Maidstone

If we really wanted to honour Turing then why is Bletchley Park museum not properly funded. That would be a proper honour - and put a statue of him there, where he belongs, not in Trafalgar Square.

Fearless Frank

I believe (though I can't remember where I read it) that Turing was persecuted in some kind of cold war paranoia - that he might take his genius to the reds, perhaps.
His homosexuality was a convenient stick to beat him with.
I agree, he deserves far greater recognition, but an apology strikes me as meaningless and insubstantial. How about some kind of memorial foundation to spread the understanding and appreciation of maths? (We could certainly do with it!)

mac

Peter from Maidstone:

Well said. Twice.

Laughing Gravy

I agree with those who have said that an apology is meaningless and a token gesture. I can remember other high profile cases from the fifties - John Gielgud and Lord Montague spring to mind. Is there to be an apology for them also? I remember the fifties. It was a censorius time, and no where so much as in the condemnation of homosexuality. Many ordinary men were caught by police spies in public lavatories - sometimes these spies were 'agent provocateur'. This attitude was a roll on from the attitude adopted to homosexuality in the army where it was seen as conducive to a break down of good order and discipline ( as usual, the Navy had a more relaxed attitude - but many policemen were ex red-caps). Lets praise Alan Turing and John Geilgud and all the others for their achievments, but lets forget apologies.

Chuck Unsworth

I'd agree with the comments here decrying the notion of such an 'apology'. It seems that there's a culture of making political statements and capital out of such matters. I'm reminded of the 'apology' for slavery - and several other equally inane 'apologies'.

These gestures have everything to do with politics and damn all to do with real life. Those who make them demonstrate callous cynicism and an astounding (yet convenient)failure to understand any history.

Chris Rose

This is complete madness!

Yes, of course Turing was treated badly, but do you really think the PM can in any meaningful sense apologise for that? What would it mean if he did?

If our prime ministers were to apologise for all the regrettable events in our history, they would never have time to do anything else. And what would be achieved?

It is we who must learn from our history. Let prime ministers get on with their job!

Ben Stevenson

Alan Scott,
Apparently the government don't do posthumous knighthoods
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/SirBobPaisley/

Simon

I am with Peter of Maidstone and Catherine of Athens, and half with THX1138.

To pardon Turing now (without pardoning others duly convicted of the same offence - which would be to open another can of worms) would be a travesty.

On the other hand, he should be honoured, greatly and properly, for all he did do for his country. I'd go for a full scale pedestal though, not a mere plinth, for his statue.

Simon

Carl Gardner - an error in you post. You say "But no one in government now did this to Alan Turing". On the contrary, it was and remains Her Majesty's Government.

Francis Atterbury

The only person to whom this apology would be meaningful is Alan Turing himself. As he's long dead, this gesture is entirely meaningless, and derives from a historically-ignorant wish to rewrite aspects of our past that certain people feel uncomfortable about.

The only reason New Labour didn't get round to doing it is because they did the electoral math, and worked out that Muslims>homosexuals.

Herbert Thornton

I'm with Verity on this, but why not have a yearly National Apology Day?

April 1st would be entirely suitable.

Fergus Pickering

Oh this is boring. I'm boring myself. But really are you telling me, Elf, that anyone who contributed significantly to the War effort is a hero? So what about Lord Beaverbrook, then? What about Mr Attlee and Ernest Bevin? Heroes are men and women of courage. Turing was not a courageous man. He was a clever man. Good for him.

Tankus

Catherine in Athens .... nice thought.

EC

It took the Vatican until 1992, some 359 years, to admit that they were wrong to prosecute / persecute Galileo. Then until 2008 to complete his rehabilitation by allowing a statue of him to be erected within the walls of the city.

I do not think it would be a meaningless gesture for our government to do something to rehabilitate the memory of Alan Turing and his life's work.

Verity

Chuck Unsworth said, "These gestures have everything to do with politics and damn all to do with real life. Those who make them demonstrate callous cynicism and an astounding (yet convenient)failure to understand any history." I agree with you.

There is a gratuitous, self-elevating air about all these "apologies" for something the apologists had no part in.

If you weren't one of the perps, apologists everywhere, you have nothing to apologise for.

Honouring a man whose sheer intellect and skill were critical in saving Britain from the Nazis is a different matter entirely.

Verity

EC - Yes indeed. That is why so many of us have mentioned a statue or funds to go to the upkeep of Bletchley Park. Many people in posts above have made this point. We would like to honour the man.

Such honour will not serve him, who is deceased, but will serve to concentrate the minds of on-coming generations. They will need heroes.

Verity

Fergus Pickering - Stop boring yourself! Click on OFF.

EC - Who cares what the Vatican does? The Roman Catholic Church, while respected, is not a template for British law.

Hysteria

what Verity said

Rich

Its about acknowledging he was good man, and that we're more progressive these days and recognize we owe him a debt and treated him poorly. legal <> moral, necessarily.

Derek

I am all in favour of seeing Turing's statue on the TS plinth; but I thought we were trying to get one of that New Zealand chap up there - the one who did so much for our air defences in the War. Do we perhaps need a fifth plinth?

Incidentally, I think this line that "he broke the law and therefore it was right that he was punished" is not 100% sound. The law is tempered with justice and justice with equity and mercy - there's usually plenty of latitude in those concepts to let someone who has served his country in some uniquely valuable fashion to be let off with a suspended sentence for just about anything but cold-blooded murder.

As a general point in the same context, there used to be a law against "blasphemy" on the books - and it used to be said that you committed the offence if you washed your car on a Sunday - I don't know whether that was true or not.

Nobody was imprisoned for blasphemy since before 1952, however, so far as I am aware, but the law was only taken off the books last year. Presumably those people on this thread who take a hard line on Turing's punishment would not have been running around in the 1990s insisting that all kinds of people be prosecuted for blasphemy because it was the law of the land. The law is someone's a ass; and sometimes very much worse. Let's hope EU law has the concept of equity.

Grateful thanks to Alan Turing.

lawrence greek

Some really crass responses on here.

Turing was a true great and we are all in his debt.

Scott

Is there not already a statue of Turing in Manchester? Can't beleive the attitude of some people on this site in not supporting this petition

Laughing Gravy

There is a statue of Turing in Sackville Street park, next to the gay village area of central Manchester. There is also a road named after him: Turing Way. Turing is well known by repute in Manchester; as part of the pioneering team that created the world's first stored programme computer. Williams and Kilburn led the engineering side of the work, whilst Turing and Newman led on the theory. Turing was never made a professor at Manchester University - but he was a Reader. This was no small academic standing. Chaim Wiezmann, the first president of Israel, is reputed to have remarked that it was easier to become President than to obtain a readership at Manchester (an academic position he did hold).

Verity

Rich said: "Its about acknowledging he was good man" ... No, Rich, it's not. It's about acknowledging that he was a genuis and played a critical role in saving our country fromthe Nazis. "Its about acknowledging he was good man." What squashy rubbish! His genius and his role in saving Britain should be publically acknowledged, but not with a cloying "apology" which would, in any case, be invalid as no one signing it was a perp.

Scott, if you "can't believe the attitude of some people on this site in not supporting this petition" the fault lies with you. Thos of us opposed have explained its trivialising lack of merit.

Jason, Upminster

As a modern day homosexual (whatever that is), I have to agree with those who do not wish to apologise for the history of others.

We can reflect on how bad things must have been and how we are glad to have evolved and crafted a different history - with different values.

Isn't it funny how politicians will fall over themselves to apologise for stuff that they had no control over, weren't alive for and didn't witness first hand. Yet, try to get them to admit a mistake made today.....

Anyway, the good thing is that I was ignorant of what this man had achieved until I read the article.

Oh, and after saying all of the above - i signed the petition earlier on...

Am not going to apologise cos it's all in the past...

David Bouvier

The heroes of the story for me must be the Poles who acquired the Enigma machines and worked out how to crack it, who brought their knowledge to Britain when Poland fell.

Turing has a good claim to have invented the computer, to be a genius, etc, but in the context of Station X and Ultra we should celebrate the achievement as a whole and spread the credit it a bit more widely than Turing.

Turing of course should be celebrated as a mathematical innovator and genius, and one of the inventors of the computer.

But lets celebrate Bletchley Park as a whole for its role in defeating Germany and Japan.

biggestaspidistra

@"However, I don't see to whom we can be apologising,"

Surely we're apologising to him. If you dont feel it don't do it. Recently I apologised to the wife of a Lockerbie victim, even though I had no connection with megrahi's release. As I get older I find myself apologising for many things, and usually but not always to dead people.

Its only leftist nonsense when we apologise to a group rather than an individual. Or through a National Apology Day, as someone mentioned. And yes, please let him have the fourth plinth.

Verity

Biggestaspidistra _ "Recently I apologised to the wife of a Lockerbie victim, even though I had no connection with megrahi's release."

Well, what a self-elevating, "please everyone note what a mahatama I am" thing to do.

Don't you realise how you cheapen the word "apology" by applying it to your egotistical self when the commission of the crime had absolutely nothing to do with you?

I apologise that someone stepped on a cockroach in Brazil yesterday. I'm really, really sorry. Do I get points for that?

biggestaspidistra

I apologised Verity because I'm ashamed of my nation's government. Travelling and working abroad, as you will know, you're often held to account, sometimes made responsible or even penalised, for your government's decisions.

It's alright to have a soul Verity and nothing to be embarrassed about.

MikeF

Things are different now - in the case of attitudes to homosexuality, as in lots of other matters - because we have learned from the past. That is the point, though. We are not better than the people who lived 50 or a hundred or however many years ago. We have simply learned from what happened then and moved on.

As such all this apologising for events that happened way before any of us could have been involved or exercised any influence is a nonsense. It is also a conceit, because ultimately the people who propose this sort of thing seem to believe that if only they had been there events would not have happened in the way they did. In other words they think that they hold the beliefs they do now because of some intrinsic personal quality of their own rather than because they are the heirs to the experience of the past. In short they stigmatise the past because they cannot bear the thought that they are in debt to it.

Verity

Thanks for the little lesson, Biggest Aspidistra - but you are confused: mahatama doesn't mean "soul"; it means "great soul" - large, genereous, encompassing soul. As in "Mahatama" Gandhi. (Well, I don't think he was that great, but a lot of people did.)

One cannot colonise events for which one was not responsible and apologise for them.

Re the government's decisions when you're in a foreign land, all you have to do is say, "I completely agree with you. I didn't vote for them."

I can only apologise for my own sins; not the sins of others.

Verity

As far as I'm concerned, Mike F, above, has the definitive word on this.

Verity

Sorry to be so prolix on this thread, but I see that Gordon Brown has apologised to Alan Turing in today's Telegraph. The comments attached to the article are unanimously contemptuous.

biggestaspidistra

Thank you Verity. Apology accepted.

Verity

Biggest Aspidistra - Ah! A phantom apology was fantasised! How á propos!

Personally, I want to apologise for Teddy Kennedy. Also, I want to apologise to the Indian Sub-Continent for the creation of Pakistan.

Robert Barnsley

1952, seems like yesterday. Funny how the law has changed so little and how men die from homophobia still in Britain today.