Europe rears its head once again for the Tories

Pete-s

The question over the EU will not go away. There always seems to be the impression that the only question is are we in or out of Europe. NO, the first question is, what type of Europe do we want. The people of Europe have not been asked, do you want a federalist Europe, that is why we must first defeat the Lisbon Treaty and force Europe to take democratic decisions based on what the citizens want, not the feather bed apparatchiks.

Dirty Euro

Do the tories believe in freedom of speech it seems not.

Will i be allowed give an opinion.

Be warned, this is tyranny.

DavidDP

"to be expelled on a point of principle is disgraceful."

He wasn't though. He was expelled for some rather slanderous attacks on a colleague.

He is right on the rest, though; the Grouping will come to be seen as a mistake, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was an attempt to join the EPP.

RobC

Although this is not a hot issue in the MSM there is a body of the electorate that is outraged that we have been sold down the river by New Labour on our fundamental right to determine our own destiny and that Brown and his minions have committed a quasi treasonous act by exceeding the remit of Politics which is to preserve and protect the freedoms of the individual citizen and state but instead have callously attempted to sign away something that goes to the heart of our democracy.Unless Cameron does insist on a referendum regardless of the irish vote he too will be committing the same blatant fraud on all of us that the current despicable shower have already done.

Searcher

EMS would be a potential minnow, excpet for the fact that the Today programme is, of course, only too happy to give him a platform to become a monster. No doubt from here on the BBC will have him on speed dial for a quote on the Tories and Europe.

TrevorsDen

He was expelled for slanderous comments and was expelled for going back on previously agreed policy.

I for one am glad this pompous ass is out of the party.

Andre

having just returned from frontier free Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany I want our leaders to affirm a belief in a united Europe. The debate about who runs our society - a secular, interventionist left wing bureaucracy or a christian, free trade, democracy must be played out over a larger stage than that of little Britain. The idea of our culture being swallowed up by Europe is ludicrous. The Flemish have never been more gung ho, there is even a German speaking corridor in Belgium which carries on quite happily - all the street signs and talk in the shops are in German - no cultural extinction here. The point about a Brussels government over ruling Westminster pre-supposes that my interests coincide with those of atheistic British socialism which they do not. Getting out of Afghanistan, fox hunting and Catholicism are frankly better served by a United Europe than Brown's Orwellian ignocracy. Moreover the threat of radical and violent Islam is European phenomena and needs to be dealt with by a free and united Europe at ease and fully confident with its identity.

roadrunner

Tebbits right my vote went to UKIP in the european elections and will stay with them unless Cameron gives us a referendum regardless of the Irish voting yes.I also think their's a lot of people who are on this wavelength and if Cameron ignores this he's risking a hung parliament or worse.

strapworld

Cameron must heed Lord Tebbit's warning. This is an issue that must be addressed. Not by some ambiguous statement. But a clear decision.

Macmillan Scott states that the Conservatives have a clear policy not to have a referendum if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified. I cannot recall reading such a difinitive policy. All we have had is a rather shady mumble about re-negotiation.

Is this a case of Cameron telling some people one story and the people another? I hope not.

He has to be crystal clear and the time is ripe.

Aidan

It's a great shame that Conservative party members weren't given the opportunity to deselect the likes of McMillan-Scott before the elections. The voting system was rigged so that sitting MEPs could not be de-selected - the most we could do was to order the candidates by preference, which is why Daniel Hannan came right at the top of the list of candidates for the South East

Peter

Cameron needs to understand the strength of feeling about Europe. A majority of the electorate are sick to death with Brussel's meddling in our afffairs by virtue of the responsibility for every facet of our daily lives being ceded to the EU. Unless he confronts the problem and guarantees a referendum, come what may, he really will see voters, probably including this one, switch their vote to UKIP. If je wants to win convincingly next year he has to deal with this at the party conference, when hopefully, he will also enunciate a number of other clear policies for his first year.

wonderfulforhisage

Strapworld 10:29 writes:

"Is this a case of Cameron telling some people one story and the people another?"

Don't forget he is the self styled 'Heir to Blair'.

Vulture

David Blackburn counts Dave Cameron's muffling of the Europe issue as 'a success'. Far from it: for many people and, I would suggest, most Tories it is THE hot topic -certainly in foreign affairs - and they resent Dave for ignoring it..

The plain fact is that the Lisbon Treaty, if enacted, would end Britain's status as a free and independent nation ruled by our own Parliament. This may be a good thing, as Andre suggests, but it is up to the British people to decide in a referendum which was promised by Liebour - but has not been held. Dave appears to be set on going down this same un-democratic path.

Of course EMS is a veteran gravy-training Euro-fanatic and his expulsion is long overdue. But if it means that this issue can no longer be buried, then it is all the more welcome.

Publius

Andre. There is no "European identity" except in the fantasies of the Eurocrats. And reducing "culture" to a few twee chocolate-box relics is not the same as the proud self-determination of a sovereign people.

Nicholas

"If all European parliaments and the Irish vote in favour of the Lisbon treaty, we pledged not to have a referendum, I fear that will change."

The Irish have already voted once and it was "No". Forcing them to vote again on the same question is scandalous. Would they have been forced to vote again if the answer had been "Yes". Of course not. That alone shows how undemocratic and pernicious the EUSSR is. Get it out of our faces - we're British.

Tebbit is right. The Conservative position is going to lose them votes to UKIP, the net result of which will be to strengthen New Labour's palsied arm. If Cameron came out vociferously against the EUSSR and made some sensible policy statements about retaining our sovereignty and independence against stupid EU socialist imperialism and wimmin laws there would be a Tory landslide.

Cuffleyburgers

@ Andre

No one is denying that Brown's orwellian ignocracy (nice turn of phrase) is evil. Personally I do not want either a catholic government based in brussels which has shown itself over the years to be inimical to my country's interests, and has repeatedly lied to me with my own money, and over which I have no democratic control.

Think about it, we are deeply unhappy with our present government but at least we do get the chance to kick the rascals out occasionally, plus they are forced to pay attention to our views. Neither of these conditions apply to the proto euro-government in brussels, which is by the way demonstrably more corrupt than our proper government, and tendentially much more socalist, than Great Britain habitually is (especially now).

There are areas where cooperation is a good thing, and I love going to Europe and speak several european languages, so to try to tar me with the epithet little englander wold be stupid.

What I object to and I suspect many of our fellow posters here agree, is seeing our sovereignty taken away without so much as a by-your-leave.

By the way, if there were a referendum, and the vote were in favour of the constitution (for that's what it is), I would accept it and move on. That's not going to happen though is it? And we know that if the result were a NO we'd just have to go through the same thing again a few months later?

How can that possibly be right?

That fact alone proves my point!

Will Rees

I think you can partially attribute the EUro election results to the Labour and Lib Dems reneging on the only manifesto commitment with regards the EU - a referendum. Surprise, surprise the Beeb trying to play up tory divisions. If I was the tories I'd send Ken Clarke out to bang on about the importance of playing with a straight bat. Even KC could stay on message for that

Dorothy Wilson

Even if Lisbon is ratified there are ways and means of stopping the Brussels juggernaut. One would be to give notice that from the 2011 financial year the UK contribution will be paid net. That would stop the silly situation under which vast sums of our taxpayers' money are passed over to Brussels only to come back again labelled "EU Funding" and used as propaganda by the Brussels spin machine.

The next step would be to insist that even the net payment is only made against a proper management accounting system with a budget structured on a cost centre basis against which actual spending and variances are measured. It would be interesting to see what the reaction not only in the UK but across the EU would be once that information was out in the open.

And as an aside, earlier this summer an American friend who spends part of the year in Spain told me that he frequently has to break up fights in the bars around where he lives between the Spanish and the Germans. The Spanish, apparently, believe that all the projects paid for by "EU funds" have been free. The Germans resent the fact that a good deal of it is actually their money. In turn, the Spanish are now becoming angry that they are expected to contribute to "EU funds" to pay for projects in the countries that have recently joined. Interesting developments!

Ro

Hear hear RobC and Nicholas. I just can't understand why the politicians are so gung ho for final integration - surely it is doing away with the majority of their jobs eventually? Cameron is disappointing so far and not just about the EU. I will be voting UKIP if he doesn't shape up. And while I am here, Brown should be done for treason.

Chris

Cameron understands only too well the depth of feeling. The British people have repeatedly voted labour, despite that party's awfulness, because we are desperate to keep the tiny group of europhobes who have taken over the conservatives out of power. Remember the humiliation of William Hague? Cameron knows he's got to keep very quiet about Europe.

If the overwhelming majority of British people hate Europe in the way constantly described on here, why can't they get any British people to speak up for them? Why do we constantly here from a Peruvian (El Senor Hannan - someone who patently couldn't care less about Britain) or the stream of Americans who attack Europe in the Telegraph?

Good post Andre. If the conservatives really care about freedom and an end to the surveillance state, let them call for UK membership of Schengen and let us be free to come and go as we please.

Chris lancashire

Yet another minor politician with an ego larger than his brain. Well done Cameron and well rid.

As for those considering a vote for UKIP - don't. Single issue politics never attract the mainstream and hence a UKIP vote is as wasted as a LibDem one. This country desperately needs a centre party with the will to tackle this financial mess properly. I dislike Brussels as much as any UKIP voter but the economy will need good, strong management long after the EU question is settled - one way or another.

Paul Reynolds

The comments imploring voters not to vote UKIP on the single issue of the EU will gain nothing. A Cameron government with a decent majority is less likely to make any more waves in Europe with the excuse that the treaty has been ratified and there are more important things to get on with like saving UKplc from the knackers yard.

Well that argument bears consideration. Unfortunately for a majority of the people the return of this nation to its constitutional status pre-Constitution and pre-Blair/Brown emasculation is very important indeed.

So Cameron better take us seriously or risk leading a minority government in which little will be achieved other than endless debate.

Yes we probably are cutting of our noses to spite our faces but sometimes sacrifices have to be made - even though we end up conkless.

Augustus

"If all European parliaments and the Irish vote in favour of the Lisbon Treaty, we pledged not to have a referendum." But Cameron said in his EU Election Campaign launch speech: "We are the only major party that has consistently opposed the Constitution - and its successor. By signing this pledge, we're putting it on the record in black and white: We support a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. And we will change the law so that never again can powers be handed over to Brussels without first asking the British people."

He committed his MEP candidates to "a new vision for Europe", but now the commitment to a 'satifactory assurance' is apparently not there. Why?

Andre

I feel odd defending the EU, I admit and I sympathize with most of what has been said here - particularly the bizarre goings on and content of the Lisboa treaty. I wanted to take a much longer view - 30-50 years. How do we - in France, Britain etc defend our religion, our right to trade, to move about freely and above all to live in a secure world? Are we in the UK a sovereign people? I am not sure we are - the British - if we still are British and not Scots, Welsh and Cornish or unintegrated alien - seem to have lost any sense of nationality or what we stand for. Hence I am thrown back on my religion and my sport. I do not see the EU as anything like fit enough for purpose. It creaks with a bureaucracy worse than our own and does not understand the basics of a free market economy in the way the US does - or did pre-Obama. As for voting out one party and replacing it with another - pray tell me what is the difference? Cameron's Tories are clones of Blair's meritocrats. Is there a richness in EU groupings we are missing? I'd like to see Gerd Wilders running EU-wide, and a few real socialists - like we see in France - foaming at the mouth.

By the right, quick ....

The Conservatives deserve support at the moment. However, if the Irish vote "yes" and DC does not give the country the referendum it deserves the Conservatives will deservedly come to be viewed the same contempt as the undemocratic Nu Labour statists

Chris lancashire

Paul Reynolds, trust me there is zero chance of UKIP leading to a minority Cameron Govt. It could, at an absolute outside reduce his majority very, very marginally.

Voting UKIP, in terms of its weight on the next Govt., is exactly on a par with the Greens, BNP and (on a good day for them) the Monster Raving Loonies.

If you want sound public finances restored and an end to the nanny state and, a good chance of stemming the EU steamroller, there is only one sensible choice.

Ian C

McMillan Scott was very restrained on Today this morning, but was firing a well measured gentle shot across Cameron's bows. However, I don't think he is in a majority in the 2010 Tory Party. Whether he should have been expelled or not is neither here nor there. The increasing scepticism of the English - as opposed to Scots/Welsh - renders this a low priority story.

Europe is an unmitigated disaster for Britain, but quite good for central Europeans, providing they cease their stupidity of trying to lowest common denominate everything they do. And then ignore it while jumping up and down when others do not. It is a mess and let them get on with it.

We need to become the Hong Kong of Europe - involved but detached. There are many things we can do together but not if it involves another layer of incompetent 'over-government' that we have seen evolve since 1971.

Peter

The following from Freddie Forsyth in today's Telegraph is very apposite.

SIR – Phil Jones (Letters, September 14) is absolutely correct to aver that David Cameron's right to give us a referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon does not depend on the decision of Irish voters in their own referendum. Nor does it depend on German judges or the Czech president.
The Conservative Party gave a solemn pledge to consult us by referendum before any ratification of the EU Constitution devised by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing. None but fools or knaves bother to deny any more that this twice-rejected Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon are one and the same. Even Mr Giscard d'Estaing admits they are almost identical. The precedent is clear. In 1975, Harold Wilson enabled us to revisit the Act of Accession to the Treaty of Rome, even though that Act has been signed, sealed and ratified two year earlier.
Given the concessions to the Irish and the Germans, we have an absolute right to insist the Tories abide by their pledge.
Frederick Forsyth
Hertford

Verity

Can I just say that this is probably the worst designed blog in the Anglosphere? One has to click on a separate page to make a comment, but cannot switch back to refer to the blog itself to comment further on the next person's contribution. So unless one were Memory Man, one would have to make a comment on one person's contribution, fill in all one's information, press Post Comment, then go back to that blog page and continue reading, and when one saw another contribution one wished to respond to, come back to this comment page again and comment on this one single comment, then click Post Comment ... what a bloody nightmare.

Compare with the elegance and lightness of Samizdata.net ...

Also, what's with this long-winded drivel to the right side on the Post A Comment page? Four repetitive paragraphs of messages!

This really is too burdensome! What a dog's breakfast.

And the heavy sans serif type across the top of the home page looks bossy,clunky, amateurish and uninviting.

Paul Reynolds

Chris Lancashire. I am afraid that you seriously underestimate the strength of feeling about Europe. And I am entirely unconvinced that Cameron will not act a la Blair, once sitting comfortably in No 10, and duck any further confrontation with Brussels.

I also really wish I could share your belief in his ability to make the changes you describe. I hope you are right on both counts. We shall see.

DavidDP

"Cameron needs to understand the strength of feeling about Europe"

He does. All polls show that Europe comes way down on the list of things people are concerned about.

Nicholas

"All polls show that Europe comes way down on the list of things people are concerned about."

Yeah, I've taken part in some of those polls and the one thing they don't do is allow an individual to articulate his or her opinion. They all constrain answers towards the objective sought by the poller, some more so than others. The number of polls I participate in that show a weighting and bias towards The Monster Brown astound me. Ditto with Europe. Sitting on the pavement in London eating croissants like a prat and jetting off to your house in France, Spain or Tuscany is not what being in Europe means. If we could drop the stupid imitative recreational behaviour and the rose-tinted glasses it is viewed through and instead study our history it is crystal clear why our democracy, our institutions, our law, our culture and our heritage have absolutely no place in Europe. Why the hell do you croissant munching, trendy Europhiles think that most of our wars of national survival have been about stopping previous attempts by barmy meglomaniacs to create a EUSSR? The fact is that the barmy meglomaniacs have been replaced by a barmy uber-bureaucracy of socialist nutters intent on imperialism by other means.

As for seeking liberation from The Monster by becoming a federal European state that also goes against our cultural grain. In history the English have always kicked out their own tyrants and it's high time we got about it with this current crop of freedom threatening fascists.

Mark, Edinburgh

Ian C,

The nationalist parties in Scotland and Wales are very pro EU, although like some Libs in SW England they also pose as sceptics locally .

However I think you'll find opinion polls (see Open Europe)on the other hand show there is absolutely no difference in highly negative views on the EU across the constituent parts of the UK. In fact before they switched position in 1992 the SNP correctly argued that Scotland hasd suffered more than England from EU membership.

Nationalist (and Irish Republic)political support for the EU is now all about an alternative to being dominated by England (better the devil you don't know, and anyway you define yourself as being anti-English). The general populace simply don't think that way thank goodness.

Don't be fooled by nationalist EU rhetoric. Indeed I've seen follow up studies on the question "do you favour Scottish Independence" , which conclude a lot of people who answer "yes" have interpreted the question to mean "do you want to leave the EU".

This is because many Scots,as a quick intial reaction to such a question, simply think of the whole country as being called Scotland because the name is used so much as a "brand" here.

Cuffleyburgers

And anoter Point Andre - you refer to the government running "society" - that is also the point, society runs itself.

One of the things people hate most about the EU and the same is true of this appalling labour government is precisely this tinkering with fabric of society.

That is why in the end it will inevitably overreach itself and split up - the only question is not whether but when (5 yrs? 15 yrs? - I wouldn't gve it any longer) and how serious the strife will be when it does, in the past such events have led to general war, hopefully we will be civilized enough to avoid that, but there is bound to be argy-bargy of some sort

Barbara

Daniel Cohn-Bendit (article by Mary Ellen Synon in the Irish Daily Mail May 25 2009):

http://www.mail-archive.com/coalitionforfreethoughtinmedia@googlegroups.com/msg04272.html

Do you really want to be ruled by people like this?

The Laughing Cavalier

McMillan Scott's attack on Michal Kaminski was not only unjust and factually inaccurate but also the act of a deeply dishonorable man. His expulsion was richly deserved.

Ian C

Mark, Edinburgh

Fair point. But it shows that English scepticism is purer i.e. easier to identify and thus pitch a political line at than in the celtic fringes - I am a Scot in the Liberal (but unlikely to be for long) south-west.

Matt

I have recently taken some time to look seriously at UKIP - largely as a result of posts in CoffeeHouse. I am a Tory voter in my late 20s and instintively feelthat there may be common gorund between UKIP and me.

So I did a little test. As a former naval officer, I reckon I know a little bit about defence, so I read the UKIP defence policy on their website. Honestly, that has been enough to convince me to continue to back Mr Cameron. So much of it is pie in the sky - there is no way the RN could man the sort of fleet they are proposing, we struggle with gapped billets in the fleet as it stands.

The clincher was that throughout a document of what must be going on for 50,000 words, they manage to refer to their pledge to keep open the naval bases at Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Rosyth.

Given that Rosyth has been closed since 1994 one can only assume that they mean Faslane (which is on the opposite side of the country). Given that this is the home of the nuclear deterrent they are pledged to maintain one would have thought that they would know where it was.

I have passed the education policy to my teaching friends - still awaiting full feedback, but the initial signs aren't good.

Afraid I'm going to have to bit my lip and continue voting for Mr Cameron, Europe or no. I can't vote for ill tought out rubbish. We have the wool pulled over our eyes by all parties, but some of them can at least find the locations they aspire to responsibility for on a map.

strapworld

I do agree with Verity about the new way of leaving a message. It really smacks of New Labour Big Brother tactics.

REPORT THIS! To whom? we have a right to know. The Police/The Border Agency?/ The Press Complaints Authority/ The Editor.

When a complaint is logged who decides if the complaint is justified and is the individual complained about allowed a say? Natural justice would demand that, surely?

Fraser, I am afraid that this is a cack handed way of doing things and I ask you to consider reverting back to the old system!!

As to Europe. I think we will have to get used to the fact that David Cameron will avoid a referendum as that will put him at odds with the rest of the 'leaders' within the EU.

That we have allowed a totalitarian regime to take over without our agreement by way of a majority democratic vote, is total madness. Absolute stupidity.

Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves. Britain never, never, never will be slaves! How the French and Germans must laugh when we sing this!!

Last night at the Proms should be renamed Last night for the Poms!

Boudicca

Andre
September 16th, 2009 10:18am

What the h+ll has fox-hunting got to do with the EU? I am neither pro not anti fox hunting - but I am anti the EU interfering in matters such as this which should be left for national Governments.

Robert Eve

The first week in October will be interesting.

If Ireland votes NO again we can all relax and Lisbon will be sunk. Cameron will then have to call a referendum after the UK GE and the Irish will not have time to vote again.

If Ireland votes YES then Cameron will have to make clear what comes next at the Conservative Party Conference.

Dave can still get my vote at the GE but it depends on what he says.

Verity

David Cameron's an intellectual lightweight, to put it mildly. He is also devious and self-serving. He is no more trustworthy than Blair. Two peas in a pod.

Re this new design, why, when one presses the comment button (should one have had the temerity to refuse to subscribe) does one get a white blank page with a circle going round? What is that all about. And then who thought greyish pink might be a good colour for the background of this page, with the type in red. How old is the designer?

Then under Your email address, it says, in parens (We won't publish this). Why start the sentence with a capital and fail to close it with a full stop.

Then, under the wordy directions on the right, it says, "Alternatively, you can register" etc. "AlTERNatively"! Ooooo, errr ... A grown-up would have written "Or".

What a bunch of self-elevating amateurish prats.

egh

Nicholas @ 8:30: Well said; I couldn't agree more. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the site hasn't been fluffed up with some euro-planters of disinformation, 'persuasion,' divide and conquer, subversion ( by planting a negative image of the British) etc. Some posts are very badly written/thought out ... they're not even redolent of British thought patterns!

[And such posters don't even know that Billy Bastard and the Vikings killed off the English - we're mainly all Celts anyway.]

As to the new site design - I agree with...I think it was Strapworld? et al. This business of 'reporting' people to some faceless authoritarian is worse than the prospect of being a 'sneak' at school! But it is how communism and the euSSR are work, isn't it? That's what they're trying to teach our kids as 'citizenship,' isn't it?
And what are we to report? Political Incorrectness? Actual FREEDOM OF SPEECH?
I also fear that comments will somehow appear elsewhere in the blogworld with my real name on them. It's nervous-making.

Btw: I think we should change that to euSSD (Dicatatorships) - or keep the R and use it to mean 'Reichs'.

Cogito Ergosum

Well said, Chris 12.55pm.

None of us want those foreigners to walk all over us, but some of us also have an instinctive distrust of little Englanders.

Cogito Ergosum

I don't often agree with Verity (2.19pm) but here she is spot on. This wretched 'post a comment' page is another triumph of glitziness over functionality.

Readers of Spectator calibre would be well satisfied with a Berners-Lee Mk1 website offering rapid delivery of Spectator content and rapid feedback from us.

I estimate 99% of my broadband is wasted on glitz and ads.

JohnAnt

The 'point of principle' is that an individual MEP may not rebel against his party leader's wishes without risking the sack.

Verity

Cogito Ergosum - Glitziness? Glitziness? The site's a dog's breakfast.

After all my other comments on this design's incoherence and illiteracy, here's a new one: Why do "Your name:* , Your email address:* and Your comment:* have asterisks after them?

What is the asterisk meant to convey? They've already put colons, so the asterisk must mean something else. Perhaps you could have a competition, with a non-existent bottle of champagne, for ideas.

MaxSceptic

I agree with Verity: the 'new' site is awful - both visually and operationally. Functionality is slow, cluttered and intrusive.

Why did you have to 'fix' it?

Progress this ain't!

Hysteria

I thought one of the points of the new system was that posts were automatically put on the site so that the flow improves. (But hence the need for some post moderation after the event leading to the "report this comment")

But in practice the posts are NOT instant - I see no improved "time to post" metric from the previous system.

Re the "report" issue - I can get that - as posted before one of the best things in my mind about CH is that it reasonably free of the abuse we see elsewhere. Given that we know the politicians/researchers regularly review this material it perhaps makes CH more of a force than, say, Guido.

I often think we are used as a kind of on-line instant focus group!

Verity - the asterisk symbol is pretty standard these day to denote a required field - this is not a big deal, and nor is the colour in the scheme of things.

But lack of overall functionality and spontaneity is a concern, and the complete lack of ability to cross-refer to other related topics is a frustration.

Verity

Thanks for informing me that I'm not logged in, you patronising prat. The reason I am not logged in is because I made that choice, so I already knew that.

It should have been worded, "As you have chosen not to log in ...".

Verity

I can't the hell remember what post I was trying to respond to, because once you're off that page (while checking something, for example) you can't refer back.

"Alternatively, you can register with the My Spectator preference centre here."

Alternatively (I think they mean "otherwise" but alternatively has more syllables) I can bugger off.

This place is uphill sledding.

Andre

Boudicca Hunting is better protected by the EU: The only other country to ban it was Germany in 1935 when the then chancellor, one Adolf Hitler, outlawed the sport. After the French Revolution all citizens were empowered and remain so to hunt. To ban hunting in France is to invoke the wrath of the pavement ripping sans culottes. So the sport has passed beyond the stuff-the-toffs mentality of our own antis. My point then is that our historic freedoms are better served by a Europe that has first hand knowledge of the depredations of dictatorship than by a UK run by socialists like Brown who clearly do not appreciate this. I think also the EU provides a better theatre in which the defenders of liberty can flourish than on a small national stage where we are subject to the tyrant of parliamentary majority. The ban on hunting has really made me think about this and wake up to the slow but steady erosion of our historic liberties. With a name like Boudicca I appreciate you reservations about European integration.

NickW

Cameron's duty and his loyalty is to the British electorate NOT Brussels.

I do not understand how any British politician can allow Europe to proceed in such a totalitarian direction.
They know that referendums would be lost, that is why they won't hold them. That is a thoroughly dangerous manifestation of totalitarianism and it will only get worse.

Hysteria

@NickW - indeed - and that is the point - our system is not actually democratic - but just gives an illusion of being so. "Give the plebs a bone every 5 years or so, keeps them quiet , and we can go on filling our pockets with loot."

(takes off bandana, removes clip from AK-47 - exits left....)

Michael Garrett

I'd like to ask all the Eurosceptics on this board how Ratification of the Lisbon Treaty is going to alter their lives in any dramatic way!! If Ireland votes Yes (I hope they do) lets go ahead and have a referendum!!! And whilst we are at it let's have a few more that cater for "Trident", "Afghanistan", "Hanging", "Corporal Punishment": - all areas that have had much more of an impact on our lives, for better or worse, than anything "imposed" by our "EU Czars."

Publius

@Andre
"...but steady erosion of our historic liberties"

Our key "historic liberty" surely is the ability to make, amend, and repeal our own laws. That does not mean that all our laws will be to your taste, or the best laws; but they will be ours.

Your appeal to the French mob - the sans culottes - as any kind of justification for the Eurostate is, to say the least, odd.

Michael Garrett

I find it fascinating that people talk about the EU institutions in terms of being "socialist", "fascist", "imperialist".I thought the principal powerbloc in the EU Parliament were the Centre-Right parties of Germany, France and Italy, parties that the UK Conservative Party should feel comfortable with in terms of ideology, beliefs and values. It beggars belief that the future PM has this very strange alliance with neo-right parties and should make us question his intelligence, tact and levels of diplomatic wisdom.

egh

Michael Garrett @ 12:19 - Why do euros and their henchmen expect us to respond blindly to tags like 'right' and 'left'?

How do you expect a thinking person to tell right from left, nowadays?

Why do you suppose we're so stupid that we can't see there's now only one 'ideology' - and that's put about by commie theorists who overwork the word 'ideology'?

As to whatever you claim constitutes your so-called Parliament --- unless you start defining your terms and acting according to some Christian and Democratic principles (no, not german christian democrat), who cares?

Publius

Mr Garrett, that is because you are unable to see the reality behind the names, and the implications for human liberty and human dignity that such political castration represents.