Back at square one?

Trumpeter Lanfried

Read Rory McCarthy in the Grauniad for a long, detailed and harrowing piece about children who have died in the fighting: Arab children, that is; with just one passing reference to Hamas rockets aimed 'towards Israeli towns.'

Tony Colvin

Untrue. We did not bomb Eire when the IRA disappeared back there after their terrorist atrocities. Israel, the stronger power, is trying to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians by making their lives unbearable. Israelis know this, but you don't. In your ignorance you are supporting a crime.

Oscar Miller

TL - Sadly the British press by and large (with some honourable exceptions) only have one narrative which they trot out every time Israel is forced to defend herself against attack - Israelis target Palestinian children. No wonder most of the British public don't understand what is going on.

Crabby

Oscar ... what's going on is that Israel for some reason refuses to negotiate with its enemy. There were many in the UK, not just in the Tory party, who had this view concerning the IRA. Luckily they did not have the power to stop negotiations, where, as I understand it, there were almost no preconditions. Unless you believe you can kill everybody on the other side, there is ultimately no alternative. And as for the British Press, please, when a suicide bomber murders people in Israel, this is always reported as the tragedy it is. The distinction between you, and I suggest the fair minded majority of British people, is that they don't first have to ask what the religion or race of the dead civilian is before they condemn it. And if there are more reports of children murdered in Palestine than in Israel, this is because there are, unfortunately, rather more of them.

Oscar Miller

Tony Colvin - the only people who have been 'ethnically cleansed' from Gaza are Jews; after centuries of habitation in the Gaza strip there are no Jews living there any more. On the other hand the Arab Palestinian population in Gaza now stands at just under 1.5 million people - with a steadily growing birthrate. So much for 'ethnic cleansing'... In fact when Israel makes any move toward peace the Palestinian leadership has always treated it as a sign of weakness and taken the opportunity to attack. On the day Israel demolished all its settlements in Gaza pulling out its civilians and military, the rocket attacks into Israel started - they've been escalating for two and a half years making Sderot virtually a ghost town. Now Hamas is training its weapons on Ashkelon. No sovereign state would tolerate this violation without retaliation.

salieri

TC - the analogy is completely wide of the mark. Ask yourself instead what you would have expected a British government to do if the IRA, instead of merely retreating across the Irish border, had used that haven as a base from which to fire daily vollies of rockets upon British cities and so kill, maim and terrorise on a far greater scale than the sectarian bloodshed within Ulster. Yes, you would have expected them to insist the Irish government did something about it. And what, then, if the Irish government had feebly shrugged and said 'it's all your own fault for making Irish lives miserable'? What then? Come on, avoid slogans like 'ethnic cleansing' and be rational.

Oscar Miller

Crabby - the Israelis have persistently made efforts to negotiate with 'the enemy'. Remember the Oslo accords? They preceded negotiations with the IRA (and were in fact a model for them). Have you forgotten Rabin and the famous handshake on the White House lawn and the Nobel peace prize? Sadly the accords were swiftly followed by the most savage suicide bomb attacks that Israel had ever known at that time. But it didn't stop Barak trying very hard to negotiate peace with 'the enemy' in 2000. Followed of course by the savage Intifada. Disengagement from Gaza was a serious attempt to kick start a peace process; so was the Road Map. There have been many many handshakes on this bloody road. As for Hamas - their bloody coup last June and reign of terror now should draw condemnation - not yet more scapegoating of Israel.

Crabby

Oscar - is it not true that many Palestinians used to live in what is now Israel? Did they just up and leave their homeland voluntarily? if they did, then I can understand your anger towards them. If they didn't, which is what I've been led to believe, then perhaps an acceptance on the part of Israel that it had a huge role in the creation of these problems in the first place would be a useful first step towards reconciliation. Reading your little piece, anyone would think Israel is a victim of events, rather than the driving force.

Oscar Miller

Crabby - Israelis are victims - so are Palestinians. Can we please get beyond this black and white blame game? And there ARE many Palestinians living in Israel (non Jews make up over 20% of the population). They mostly have higher living standards and educational opportunities than most places in the Arab world. It is also true that Arab Israelis suffer from the same kind of cultural problems and inequalities that, for instance, beset race relations in Europe. But if you visit a place like Haifa you will find exactly the same sorts of multicultural projects taking place there that happen over here. This road to hell (and I am not denying it has been hell for both sides) has been paved and is still paved with many good intentions. There is enormous concern and conscience amongst Israelis about the Palestinian people. Israelis are simply ordinary people trying to deal with an extraordinary history.

Tony Colvin

Oscar Miller and Salieri. The analogy with Eire and the IRA is apt. Eire and the USA aided and abetted the IRA, but we did not attack either country. Hamas offered a ceasefire, but the last thing Israel wants is peace with Palestinians. Every time things calm down, Israel murders a child or a Hamas official in order to get the cockroaches in the bottle stirred up - and that is Likud's statement of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinians is evil. Britain should insist that Israel carries out the UN Security Resolutions and gets out of Palestinian territory, or Britain should break off diplomatic relations with Israel.

Max Kaye

Tony Colvin, Do you really believe the rubbish you write or is it force of habit? Equating the unfortunate death of civilian death - children included - with targeted murder is knowingly perverse. If Israel disappeared tomorrow would the Palestinians and the Arab World transform themselves into a beacon of enlightenment?

Oscar Miller

Tony Colvin - unfortunately there have always been people like you who prefer to label others 'evil' than try to understand and solve problems. No doubt it makes you feel big and important - sadly it inflicts a pack of lies and poison on everyone else. If there is a single thing that has scuppered all the attempts at reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians - and they have been numerous as I've tried to indicate (but don't have the space to go into the detail I could) - it has been the rise of Islamism. It's the Islamists who refuse to talk peace and who are playing the 'long game' of planning to exterminate Israel. Anyway it's clear your prejudice has made you deaf dumb and blind to rational debate, so I guess I am wasting my time.

Tony Colvin

Oscar Miller. You are preaching AntiIslamism, which is the modern version of AntiSemitism. Both are hate crimes in this country. BTW I'm not prejudiced; the facts are clear: Israel is entirely responsible for the mess in Palestine. Israel should obey UN resolutions and get out of Palestinian land. There would then be peace. Max Kaye. Firing tank shells and helicopter rockets into civilian areas is a war crime. Targeted murder is a crime. It's not perverse to equate the two.

dexey

Israel had a huge role in the creation of these problems because the Israelis failed to run away when attacked by the neighbouring Arab states. The Israelis then, infamously, went on to win each war that their Arab neighbours started against them.

Crabby

dexey - with respect, it can't have escaped your notice that they're sure as s**t not winning this one. Just heard that 64 per cent of Israelis want talks with Hamas, so it's not just anti semitic deaf dumb blind and prejudiced supporters of terror who wonder what the Israeli government is doing.

Max Kaye

Tony Colvin, the Qassam rockets are launched from the midst of civilian areas. What is the alternative to targeting the rocket launchers: turn the other cheek? It might buy one immortality or a nice bunch of flowers for one's grave, but the Israelis want to live safely in the here and now.

As for equating anti-Islamism with anti-semitism, once again you demonstrate your moral bankruptcy with such comparisons. I would go farther and say that being anti-Islamist (not, anti-muslim) is an essential condition for any right-minded human being.

Oscar Miller

Couldn't agree more Max. As far as I'm concerned anti Islamism is anti fascism. And I know many Muslims who would agree with me.

Tony Colvin

Its a crime, Max, to use disproportionate force, and that is what Israel does when it shoots 105-mm tank shells and helicopter-borne rockets into civilian areas. As for your second part, you've lost me. For you a right-minded person should be anti-Islamist and opposed to those who believe in implementing Sharia law? Then on your own definition a right-minded person should also be anti-Semitic since Israel has implemented halakha. You'll be saying Israel is a democracy next. Hint: it's a theocracy, just like Iran, with democratic trappings. That's because in both countries religious law trumps the will of parliament.

Oscar Miller

Tony Colvin - you clearly know nothing about Islamism. Islamism is NOT the upholding of sharia law. That is Islam. It may surprise you to know that when it comes to civil (not criminal) law Muslims in Israel live under sharia law, while the Jews live under halachic law. Nor is Israel a theocracy. It is a secular state - enshrined by that secular Jew David Ben Gurion. It is only regarding civil matters that halacha and sharia obtain. I'm afraid your ignorance is showing.

Oscar Miller

TC - It's also a matter of common knowledge that strictly religious Jews - the Charedi community - do not support the state of Israel. This is precisely because it's a secular state and they believe Israel should only come about with the arrival of the Messiah. Even you must have noticed the antics of Naturei Karta (one of the more extreme Charedi groups) and their support for Ahmadinejad. Their opposition to a secular Israel is a founding reason for this. Charedi Jews living in Israel refuse to join the IDF for the same reason. The founding fathers of Israel were secular modernists who wouldn't allow any biblical references in Israel's founding declaration (the nearest they got was a reference to the 'rock of Israel'). Like all modernists, they did not predict the religious revival that occurred at the end of the twentieth century. It would help if you'd let some facts get in the way of your bigotry for a change.

Tony Colvin

Oscar. You say your definition of Islamism is not mine, but you don't give it. End of discussion. But Israel remains a theocracy despite your protests. Ben Gurion's secular constitution was never scuppered. Israel has no constitution. What it has is a definition of nationality in terms of religion. In a landmark Supreme Court decision, Justice Agranat ruled against a man who wanted to have his nationality registration changed from "Jewish" to "Israeli" saying: "There is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people." That is why El Al can't fly on a Saturday? (BTW why don't they employ Saturday goyim?) And it's why ultra-orthodox Jews are allowed to avoid military service without a gaol sentence. Religion rules in Israel. It is a classic theocracy.

Oscar Miller

TC - I am happy to give a definition of Islamism. Islamism is the ideology that the caliphate should be reinstated in the governance of a global ummah ('family' of Muslims) to be implemented by any means necessary. Islamists believe in the violent overthrow of all Western style democracies as non-Islamic entities. Islamism is a fundamentalist, anti occident, totalitarian ideology that believes in the forcible implementation of its doctrine. It regards the vast majority of Islamic states and Muslim people as 'unislamic' - hence the ruthless suicide bomb attacks in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc etc. It's adherence to the idea of 'martyrdom' not only sanctions murder but also the sacrifice of the lives of its followers. It is a fascist ideology that as Max Kaye accurately says should be opposed by all right minded people. As for Israel's constitution - you are right, like England, Israel does not have a written constitution. Like Britain Israel aims to offer a broad umbrella to draw together its secular and religious (and non Jewish) citizens. This approach is enshrined in a series of constitutional documents, but not a single constitution. The relationship between secular and religious life in Israel is (famously) not always an easy one. But Israel is not a theocracy. On the contrary it is managing a very difficult juggling act of tolerating a very wide range of different practices from its very diverse citizens. Your crude caracterization (along with the rest of your pronouncements) is an insensitive travesty.

Tony Colvin

Thank you, Oscar. I agree there are people like that. But they don't frighten me because they will always be a powerless and insignificant minority - like the IRA. The people to be worried about are the Neocons who have taken over the USA; who have committed aggression against Iraq, and who threaten to attack Iran; who have lied and deceived the American and British people; and who are closely allied with the Israelis. Those are the fascists, and they should be resisted by all men of good faith.

Oscar Miller

TC - you live in cloud - Michael Moore, John Pilger, Harold Pinter - cuckoo land.

Roy

Good-on-yer Oscar!! There are ones who will never see the light.

Oliver Chettle

It really is beyond belief that Oscar, or anyone else, can think that the press is biased against Israel. The reality is that Israel is treated far better than any other country would be in the same circumstances. There are two reasons for this: irrelevant guilt about things that Germans (not Palestinians) did in the first half of the last century; and fear of being defamed as anti-semitic for telling the truth. As for never seeing the light Roy, I used to be a pro-Israel sucker myself, but one day I woke up and realised that supporting Israel is not an affirmation of Western values, but an appalling betrayal of them. And I am a conservative who detests Pinter etc.

The Corporal 12th Foot

Funny that Crabby and Colvin ignore Muslim fanatics blowing themselves and innocents up in Cafes buses etc. Ethnic cleansing / what about the Jews driven out of Algeria, Iran, Iraq and Tunisia. Oh thats different. The whole problem could be solved if the Oil Arabs spent 10% of wahat they spend on Horses Gambling Yachts and Whores on improving conditions in Gaza and the West Bank. I have a friend who is very pro Palestinian/Arab. He is Gay I ask him where he would rather live, in a Muslim country or Israel after lots of burbling and thats not the point, Surprise surprise its Israel.

Ann

"And if there are more reports of children murdered in Palestine" - utter nonsense. There is no such thing as 'Palestine', and Arab children are not murdered by Israel. The Arabs are waging a genocidal war against Israel, and Israel is defending itself. The moment the rockets from Gaza stop murdering Israelis, Israel will not shoot back.
As for the loons who claim that Israel is 'treated better by the media than any other country', this is utter drivel. Israel is being more restrained than any other country would be if attacked daily, and still it is being demonised by brainless antisemites.
The repeated lie about 'ethnic cleansing' by Israel is beneath contempt.

Ann

"In a landmark Supreme Court decision, Justice Agranat ruled against a man who wanted to have his nationality registration changed from "Jewish" to "Israeli" saying: "There is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people."

LOL. What nonsense. That was not nationality but ethnicity.

"That is why El Al can't fly on a Saturday"

LOL.

You know less than nothing about Israel. Less than nothing, because you are full of demented and ignorant anti-Israel fantasies.

Mark Solomon

One can argue the toss about the Middle East till the cows come home but to me the simple determinant as to who we should support and who is to blame for the violence is this:

If the Arabs/Palestinians laid down their arms there would be peace in the Middle East;

If Israel lays down its arms there will be no more Israel.

Enough said. The simple truth of those two statements cannot be denied by anybody. And after 11.9 and the bombs in London and Madrid, only a blind man cannot see that Israel is in the front line fighting our fight for us...