The Tories look evasive on Europe, but now is not the time to clarify

david1

Europe destroyed the last Tory government, it will destroy the next.

Vulture

Not for nothing did The Times lead the charge for Chamberlain and appeasement in the 1930s. It's editorial line remains the same.
Accepting Lisbon and a possible unelected Emperor Blair means kissing goodbye to independence, freedom and democracy. People may be happy to accept this: but they should at least be asked.

Europe may not be the most urgent issue confronting a Conservative Government but it is obviously the most fundamental.

Publius

Social policy: Brussels. Asylum policy: Brussels. Trade policy: Brussels. Fisheries: Brussels. Internal security: Brussels. Judicial policy: Brussels.

But never mind all that "naval gazing". There are more important things to focus on, like where to locate the parish pump.

DavidDP

You know, the only people going on about Europe are the media.

Publius

Good article by William Rees-Mogg in today's Times. Worth a quick look.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/william_rees_mogg/article6860965.ece

Stuart Bertram

Much as I'd love to I just don't buy that line - this boil needs to be lanced, but its too late to do so this week. The line of "can't comment on a hypothetical" is nonsense and is weak. Its like GB claiming he can't comment on the SNP decision to release Al Megrahi - it immediately excludes him from having a legitimate view on any other decision they make; and in DC's case on any other "hypothetical" (and its not hypothetical, its highly probable) you care to name.

But to lance it now would overshadow the conference, which I suspect is more of a consideration than, say, the fear that ruling out a referendum now would make for a lot of votes for UKIP in a lot of marginals because that issue will need to be tackled pre-election anyway. The problem now is that rule out a referendum or not, either way the issue is set to dominate the at least the next few days. It is however to late to change course now - that would just keep the story going. They're just going to have to grin and wriggle.

Publius

@DavidDP
"You know, the only people going on about Europe are the media."

I'm not "the media", I'm going on about it.

Do you think our constitutional settlement is an irrelevance?
(Though I hesitate even to call it a settlement, since it is going to keep changing in favour of "ever-closer union.")

Alan Phillips

DavidDP is correct, you deal with facts, and why would anybody arm the benefactors of your plan 'B' when you know they'll close every doorway that stops it in its track. It would be a bit like Brown announcing he was going to sell a lot of gold tomorrow and the price taking a dive.

Oh I forgot, he did that Doh!

Duyfken

I beg to differ. It is the Tories' fault for trying to sweep the subject under the carpet ever since Cameron became leader. Instead, they should have harried and hassled the government incessantly and with gusto. And now you say it is too late to harp on about it. Neville Chamberlain would be proud of you.

drakes drum

David Cameron should give a warning to Europe, IF they put Blair as the president of the EU then he will call a referendum of the British people on a simple IN or OUT question.

Blair is totally unacceptable to the Conservative Party and, I believe, the British people.

Put the boot in Cameron!

RobertD

What Cameron could and should say not, with great force is
1) Lisbon is a lousy treaty that gives away more powers for the to run areas of the UK that should remain within the competence of the UK government.
2) Lisbon entrenches a massive democratic deficit. Decision are taken by peeople not directly elected for the job or accountable to the European electorate. If Europe is not yet mature enough to have a president directly elected by and accountable to all of the people of Europe then Europe is not yet ready to have a President.
3) The Labour governement has given away many protections for the UK negotiated by the last tory government (social chapter, working time, rebates etc) for nothing in return and has lied to the British poeple about Lisbon. The current problem with the EU is a problem that labour have made, and they must take the blame.

4) Until there is no legal option left the Tory party will work to stop the Lisbon treaty. If is is a legal reality when they get power then they will use every mechanism open to them to protect UK interests. A referendum to express UK opinion may be one element of this but unless it can be linked to something that can have legal effect it won't be able to change much.

Ian C

One of, if not the chief Times leader writer, is an ex-Blair advsier so is bound to plug the line they are. It is in faviur of Lisbon, Blair for President but especially something to examine the Tories closely on. It will be a big mistake for this discussion to go on much further as this is an important conference that could be sidelined by Europe.

When the facts change we review the policy is the right approach. All that has changed is that Lisbon has moved one step closer to ratification last week. That does not require a change of policy but it does require careful handling of the issue in case it swamps out everything else as a result of media trying it on as they have on the past 36 hours.

William Blakes Ghost

As Eurosceptic as I am. I fully support the approach that Cameron has taken and in the ideal situation he should stick to it. However, over the weekend, the party hierarchy have made such a shambles of controlling the narrative (is Coulson all he is cracked up to be?) that it may no longer be tenable to resist the majority.

This is a failure of CCHQ's making and if they don't deal with it efficiently the party will suffer, years of fine work will be wasted and most of all the country will suffer most.

We need to be rid of this foul Labour Government but we need a competent Conservative Government to repair the damage.

This weekend did nothing to inspire confidence that that is on offer.

David Blackburn

Publius,

Couldn't agree with you more, but those issues are tomorrow's battle, and important one. The Tories are preparing for government, now is not the time to address those issues.

Ian Walker

Of course you can make the general election a referendum by, you know, having some different policies?

It would help if the media could ask smarter questions that would take Dave out of his comfort zone. There's no point asking about a referendum - he's got his answer and he's going to stick with it. Try this to get a rise:

"Mr Cameron, will you be happy to be effectively subservient to President Blair?"

Of course I suspect Cameron's done a deal to get a nice slice of Euro-gravy; sadly only Osbourne had the guts and pride to tell Mandy where to stick it, which is why that's the only meeting we've heard about.

luke

Whilst I see it would be politically convenient to clarify what they would do if the treaty is ratified only if that happens, there really isnt another good reason to adopt that approach.

Surely people want to know now if the tories are going to embark, in government, on a course of action which could see britain drop out of the EU and/or enter damaging negotiations with the rest of the EU on a matter which they think is put to bed.

Whether you are for or against them doing that, its not unreasonable that we as the electorate might like to know their thinking/ plan.

Kalvis M. Jansons

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Lisbon-ref/

Remember that you can also help by telling others about it!

Frank P

What Napoleon and Hitler attempted to do by Force is now happening by default as we meekly hand over our sovereignty, statute by statute, to those who seek revenge for Britain's political, economic and military dominance of several centuries. Parliament is already destroyed as an effective instrument of British democracy. Now its destroyers seek their place at what they consider to be the higher tables of a European super state. Traitors! And 'we' have voted, and will continue to vote for them, because there is no viable alternative on offer - yet! Moreover the demographics of immigration and infiltration will probably ensure there is no resurgence of British state autonomy: England is already a sad story of ignominious defeat. For almost half a century we have witnessed, and by default been party to, the historical vandalism of one of the greatest cultures and benign meritocracies ever known. It has taken place before our very eyes and all this prattling, pretence, duplicity and political nuance from a magazine that once represented the best of British is deeply depressing! The treachery of our politicians to its current electorate is bad enough; but their treachery towards those whose blood was spilled on the battlefields of Europe and beyond in their sacrifice to prevent what has since been perpetrated without resistance will only be assuaged by the eternal damnation of those responsible.

Colin

I'm sorry to have to say this, but you reap what you sow. Cameron has had a couple of years now to sort out the Tory position on the Lisbon treaty and Europe in general.

Had Cameron pointed out, prior to the Labour / Lib Dem deceit, that there could be no referendum on the treaty, after it had been ratified, things could have been very different.

By making it clear, that in relation to the Lisbon treaty, a future Tory government would be bound by the treaty, come what may, he would have rallied a very broad coalition, putting much more focused and sustained pressure on Labour and the Lib Dem's to honour their manifesto commitment.

By holding out hope that he could somehow recover the position when he gained power was disingenuous. He must have known that legally, he had nowhere to go on Lisbon after it had been ratified.

All three main parties have engaged in a breathtaking exercise of dishonesty in relation to this treaty. None of them wanted to be the party responsible for enacting this treaty and all it entails. As a result, all three hoped that Ireland or some other patsy state would do their dirty work for them. Why else would Labour and the Liberals promise a referendum? They did so because neither though they'd have to go through with it. In the end, of the three main parties, the Tories have blinked last and lost. And lost BIG!

For those on here saying that Europe is a non-issue - guess what?

It's all anyone is now talking about, in relation to Cameron and this make or break conference.

Publius

@Luke
Already you adopt the language of a slave, fearful lest we displease our EU masters, and hoping for what crumbs might drop from the high table.

That is now what Ireland with it's population of a smallish UK city has been reduced to. All they can cling on to now is that they might have some "influence" with those who rule them.

JohnPage

David, which Tory backroom person wrote that post for you? Is the conference going to bring a stream of Tory apologias?

Publius

Forgive yet another link, but another good bit of analysis here by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/6259211/The-result-in-Ireland-shows-that-Europes-usurpers-have-succeeded.html

It is important to keep in mind the deliberate deception on the part of the EU and our own government that has led up to where we are now.

Fergus Pickering

A referendum on whether we should sign a treaty we have already signed doesn't make a lot of sense. But most of the British people appear to want it so perhaps... On the other hand where does it say that just becausewe signed a treaty we have to abide by it? Where in the real world is it that people always stick with the agreements they have 'freely entered into'? International Law has nothing to say about this. Where is the World policeman to make us do what we don't want to do. The way THAT is done in the real world is to send in the tanks. Do you think European tanks will be heading for our lawns as in 1940? They haven't got any. So what will they do. They will be VERY CROSS INDEED. There will be sanctiojns. What sanctions would they be? French yoghourt will be withheld. Perhaps we can live with that. I suggest obfuscation, foot-dragging, lying, withholding of bowling club subs, and a campaign of vulgar abuse by The Sun. Frogs and Krauts. Been there. Done that. And bloody Obama won't last beyond a first term and we can have a nice Republican back.

Fatbloke on tour

Pleb lover

I take it geography is not one of your strong points?

Ireland has the population of a smallish British city?

I think not.

From what you keep banging on about electoral politics isn't one either.

JONNY

The most interesting and constructive comment that's been posted here this week has been for us to join the USA.
What fun!
I can stalk the Kentish fields in a pair of cowboy boots from Western Stores. And get my wife to cook me pumpkin pie and sourdough pancakes on Thanksgiving Day.

It might even freshen up the Queen's Christmas Message:
"I extend to all my loyal and devoted subjects of the 51st State of America a Happy Christmas. And to My President and Vice President a Prosperous New Year."

Verity

Poor, provincial Jonny. Saying "cowboy boots" is too infra dig!

And what's wrong with Thanksgiving Day? It's to celebrate the safe making it through a whole year by the brave people who landed on Plymouth Rock in around 1649. They weren't familiar with any of the food that they found, and the Iroquois Indians showed them how to plant corn and how to cook the various indigenous foods ... and they made it safely through that first year in a place they'd only heard of. Can you imagine the bravery of setting out across the Atlantic to a place you'd only heard of? No photos in those days. And no direct reports from others, because they were the first. But they set their faces to the sun in the West and went anyway, spending weeks on the high seas. I believe they took some cattle and some horses. And became the first settlers to set foot on the mainland of the New World. (Columbus only kicked around the Caribbean. He kept missing the vast landmass directly ahead.) I think it's a wonderful story.