It's so unfair!

Oscar Miller

If the 'underdog' strategy is what this absurd whingeing is about then it will backfire. After eleven years in power and the weight of a mass of quangos and public institutions backing them, including the BBC, New Labour is never going to be able to play the 'victim' card with any credibility. Actually this 'it's not fair' whinge makes them seem like spoilt brats.

David Barnett

I listened to the "debate" and I thought the interviewer gave Milliband a far a great deal more frequently. There was no doubt in my mind whose side Naughtie was on.

Chuck Unsworth

Well, even if Naughtie did give Hague a 'points victory' so bleeding what? Let's not get too precious about this, eh? After all for years the BBC has shown strong leftist tendencies - and wasn't Naughtie at one stage being accused of supporting Labour? Perhaps as a professional broadcaster he'll be glad that a balance has now been struck and his perceived impartiality apparently restored....

Jonathan Bowers

This ploy by the Labour Party to complain about their natural ally the BBC is reminisent of what the Major administration did during the dying days of that govenment. The only difference this time is that Mr Naughtie will do his bit to support the party that he admitted supporting on a live broadcast.

Robin

New Labour are the biggest bunch of lightweights on the planet. Never prepared to fight for waht they want they cry 'foul' every time they are asked to justify themselves. David Milliband is the ultimate blouse who uses this tactic frequently 'what me, guv?' it's jsut not fair is it, Dave? Someone asking you to support your own position is just so unfair; especially when you're spending our money. The sooner this lot shove off with their £8bn lost on the sale of our gold, the better.

Anan

This is getting absurd. The BBC in particular and the media in general are so biased in favour of Labour that it would make any decent man shed tears of laughter at their claims of "independence." To hear this nonsense from Labour is pathetic.

But this is an important difference between Labour and the Conservatives. When in opposition Labour are absolutely rabid in their attacks and relentless in their attempts to discredit a Conservative government. When Conservatives are in opposition they are meek. They must be much tougher!

And when Labour is in power, they are more than ready to play the victim card, just as RedKen did a few days ago at the London Assembly meeting.

Even when they are doing something illegal like not having a promised referendum because the name of the treaty was changed, they still stand firm that they aren't going to fulfil their promise, and explain with contempt why they aren't going to. But the Conservatives? Oh no, they are too ready to apologise even when they are in the right - such as with the hospital closures. That joke Lansley was on Sky News with cap in hand saying sorry "we arent perfect we made some mistakes" when in fact what he should have been saying is: "How dare you try and twist this around as if we are wrong - the fact is that hospitals and wards are going to be closed down, and for us, even one closure is too much, let alone 50."

The conservatives need to be much tougher on Labour and the media - remember: being nice to them will not get you Hugh Edwards' or Nick Robinson's vote - they will never vote Conservative. And sucking up live on TV will not get you the votes of the council estates, they too will never vote Conservative. Stand firm and open your mouths for god's sake! I cannot believe I'm having to say this.

Ruddigore Topsider

But it *was* an unfair match: Hague is a talented speaker with a long history of intelligent and amusing contributions - to the Commons, to TV and to popular biography. Miliband is an inky swot with a Lego haircut who sounds like the deputy head of house prefects accepting 'best attendance record' on Speech Day.

THX1138

C'mon guys credit where's credit due that was a first class debate between two political braniacs both of whom went to the local comp by the way. 15 all I'd say.

NickL

THX1138, you're right. I thought it was pretty even-stevens until David Milliband came out with the "points victory" comment, at which point I think he resoundingly lost the debate.

Ted Tedford

Let's not forget that this fellow is our Foreign Secretary. He's not some gimcrack back-bench time-server, party hack or commentator. I don't care how much of a 'brainiac' he is, or where he went to school. Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but I'd prefer my Foreign Secretary to have sufficient stature to be above that sort of whining.

THX1138

Ted -As I recall the Tories had John "the bastards" Major as Foreign Secretary for awhile before Maggie anointed him PM & not one of her better decisions I think you'd agree At least Miliband was only whining at the BBC not his own cabinet although of course Major did spend plenty moaning about the BBC as well.

Anan The Cat

In this instance, a meow of agreement with the human named after me.

The Chocolate Orange Intifada

The socialists are whiners. They never put up a robust fight for anything. They win by whining and sulking. However, this appears to be deliberate strategy on the part of the socialists and their soulmates, the BBC. With the unquestioning, unanalytical British public, all the left has to do is repeat something often enough and people begin to accept it as received wisdom. The Tory Party was never "the nasty party" given what we have now seen of the sheer malice, spite, greed, manipulation offacts, stonewalling and blatant dishonesty during 11 years of Labour governance. This is another socialist/BBC stitch-up and they'll play it for the next two years, until some idiots begin to believe it. The BBC should be sold off and the licence fee ripped out from under it.

THX1138

The Chocolate Orange Intifada-. Oh so it's all the fault the BBC that Tories keep losing is it, nothing to do with John Major, William Hague, IBS or Michael Howard please tell me if I have missed any out their have been so many. it's not only the socialists who are whining you don't seem to be doing such a bad job either

The Chocolate Orange Intifada

TX1138 - William Hague, IDS and Michael Howard (to a lesser extent because he had said he would resign as leader if the Tories didn't win, and he kept his word) were run off by the left wing of the Tories. But the Ken Clarkes and those of similar ilk were ably assisted by the vicious lefties - people like James Naughtie - who man the BBC. You must surely admit that the BBC is not a politically neutral organisation, and not being so, should not be financed by licence fees paid by those who oppose its politics. If it's such a great organisation, it can withstand being broken up and auctioned off and being forced to raise its own funds through (volunary) subscription. The socialists in the Tory party will not run Dave off, as an aside. He is one of them. That's why the party needs to dump him and fast.

salieri

This whingeing about the BBC in general and Naughtie in particular is getting silly. To some people, an interviewer's failure to ram home their own point of view is proof of bias. Let's be fair - it was a well balanced, articulate and courteous exchange, whatever our own opinions on the issue, and in that respect a vast improvement on what passes for debate in the House.

TGF UKIP

Orange - you're dead right in your analysis of the sabotage by the Tory Left of their own Leaders. They are now so smug because they have one of their own as Leader. So far as the BBC and Labour are concerned, this is a deliberate tactic to endeavour to put the BBC on the back foot and to try to make them even more favourably disposed (if that were possible) to the Labour cause. I always believed that the whole Gilligan/Today row over the "sexed up" dossier was part of the same tactic. Campbell being Campbell though, it went too far with appalling consequences. Thanks to Hutton, though, Campbell won, kept his job and Blair's job and Gilligan, Davies, and The Hideously White DG lost theirs. Sums it all up rather neatly doesn't it - Labour attack while the Tories watch, whinge, wring their hands and apologize for themselves.

THX1138

The Chocolate Orange Intifada & TGF UKIP- Hold on guys I do think we have a bit of revisionism going on here it wasn't the Tory left that Major was calling bastards. Your Euro sceptic friends on the right including Spocky Redwood who as I recall was in the cabinet at the time did all they could to undermine Major. You guys need a reality check how many elections do you need loose by lurching to the right to realise that It ain't going to fly. As for all this BBC bashing I read here & on Guido I agree with salieri it's all a bit pathetic I actually don't think that the BBC is institutionally socialist. I know two people who work for BBC news & both vote Tory & look at couple of recent defectors (Ok sacked) from the BBC and now off the leash Gilligan & Liddle I hardly call them friends of New Labour would you.

Ted Tedford

THX: You're right about Mr Major. But my point about Mr Miliband is not that he whined about BBC bias, although that is poor enough. It is rather that he chose, tellingly, to treat the whole issue as a parlour game, the 'victor' to be decided by a chairman. (In Mr Naughtie's case, an unelected one...) Typical of the current university-researcher-think-tank-MP-minister model that they treat political issues as though they were a university debate, to be won or lost on the whims of a notional convenor. This debating society attitude - matters with fundamental implications for their constituents as abstracted intellectual jousting - pervades and trivialises politics. And reinforces the impression of politicians as divorced from real life. And I believe Mr Major's 'bastards' comment was made in private, rather than on national radio!

THX1138

Ted- I sort of agree with you about this issue of a political class but I don't think it's an issue for only for the Labour benches. What did Dave and Boy George do before wanting to become the CEO and CFO of UK plc . I'll tell you Dave was a PR spiv at Carlton TV & Boy George was some kind of policy wonk in the deputy leaders office. I don't think I would want my ISA cash invested into company run by those two likely lads. The reason Vince Cable came out of the Northern Rock debacle so well was that he entered politics late from being chief economist at Shell, he understood how business works in the real world and that really shone out. In my fantasy cabinet he would be chancellor no question. I still enjoyed Hague and Miliband debating because I'm like you a political nerd.

Ted Tedford

THX: You're right, it's not a party issue. Like you, I despair of the men set in power over us. See the 'Who would you want to answer the 3 am call?' thread. Answer: Someone with some executive experience in a walk of life other than politics, where you're often insulated from failure, unless the media pack make your position untenable.