The Europe question won’t dominate conference but it hasn’t gone away

alan

I am, frankly, amazed with a post on Iain Dale's blog!

Last night he attended the Tory Agents Dinner. I know, as my father was a tory agent in the fifties and sixties till his death in 1966, how important this function is to those dedicated people who do so much for the party, most especially in elections.

I would ask people to read the blog and to discover that not one senior member of the team Cameron bothered to attend! Then discover the number of MP's/MEP's/and candidates who attended!

I know in my fathers day Churchill, Macmillan, Heath etc always attended and spoke. Cabinet/Shadow Cabinet members and most MP's attended.

Then read the comments especially one from an agent who tells us that Cameron has not called one meeting of these professionals, ever!

What kind of organisation with professionals in constituencies does not keep them fully informed of the campaign structure etc, so that these agents can go back, energised, and prepare the battle grounds locally?

This tells me more about this organisation, run by an inner cabal, than anything else.

Cameron talks about giving power back to the people, but certainly does not practice it within his party!

Just what is Pickles paid to do?

Vulture

James, What you fail to grasp - though I'm sure Dave does - is that even if he wished to block further moves towards federasty, with Lisbon in place he will be unable to. So it doesn't matter what great plans a Tory Govt have, if our masters in Brussels don't agree, they won't happen. Dave will be reduced to the status of provincial Governor of an outlying Euro-province. He will be Pontius Pilate to Emperor Tony Nero. Is that what we really want?: cos it looks like that's what we're going to get.

Fatbloke on tour

Sold down the river along with Scratchy's credibility.

PR crap from a PR guy.

The beard her was using to get on-side with the faithful is now starting to moult.

I await with baited breath the response from the media, big issue failed and his grasp of the bigger issue, the economy is ten times worse.

He is a political souffle, full of hot air and no substance.
He couldn't spell leadership never mind provide it.
Complete waste of space.

He only got into politics to stop his wife running away with an Astor.

Third time lucky is it?

GJTory

I always struggle with this. Beyond potentially getting kicked out of the EU, what exactly can Brussels do?

Surely the UK Parliament is sovereign and it can therefore make it so that any portion of any treaty is no longer an exclusive competence of the EU.

The principle of subsidiarity applies to anything that is not an exclusive competence. So our Parliament can decide that nothing in any treaty decided outside the UK is enforceable inside the UK.

Then the parts of any treaty we don't like can go into the Great Repeal Act. Hey presto, any non economic writs from Brussels are scrapped (and maybe some economic ones).

I've probably missed a few legal niceties here. Probably some constitutional ones too. Could someone set me straight?

Victor Southern

Vulture
Don't blame Cameron for this. I'll give you a list of some who are to blame: Blair, Brown, Mandelson, Hoon, McShane, Miliband Major.

There is where the blame lies. It is just another of the huge burdens that the Conservatives must shoulder when the self-serving cabal is finally ousted from Downing Street.

Then we may be able to get on with governing in the interests of the British people. That will make a change.

Publius

"I suspect that a Tory government would block any other big set piece treaty"

They won't need to. There won't need be another big set piece treaty. The EU have learnt their lesson about asking the people. That is why Lisbon is self-amending. It can all be done in secret, in the backrooms of Brussels. No one need ever know. After all, who's interested in Europe? -- as we keep being told.

"But whether they would fight the daily legislative creep from Brussels is less certain."

Yep. That's how it will be done. A bit here, a bit there. Ten years ago, who would have thought a British subject could be dragged off to some corrupt European jurisdiction without recourse to our courts. And yet that is what is now happening with the European Arrest Warrant. Is anyone complaining? Oh, I forgot, people don't care about Europe.

Verity

What Vulture said, true.

But also, let us not forget that Cameron is seeking to advance his own preferment in the EUSSR, as a member of the Nomenklatura, and he will be careful to stay within the bounds of what he knows will be understood as necessary dissembling by the Fascist High Command -- oops! --- the amiable, easy-going chaps and chapesses who run the EUSSR.

Florence of Arabia

Fatbloke etc - You await with "baited" breath? What did you bait your breath with? And why?

Paul Williams

he’ll still block any further moves to ‘ever closer union.’ The question is, will he?

This question is utterly irrelevant, because the Lisbon Treaty contains the 'ratchet clause' (Article 48(7)).

After Lisbon this clause ensures that the treaty becomes self amending which essentially means that no new Treaties are needed and that the EU can take any powers it likes.

The Tories are making the same mistakes as they did in the 90s; “in Europe but not ruled by Europe” strategy. But I’m afraid that after Lisbon that is no longer an option; if you don’t want to be ruled by the EU - get out or shut up!

Verity

Alan - What a very interesting blog! Thank you!

Your post tells us volumes. First, that Dave thinks he's going to get into power without the help of the plebs. (Which also tells us that he is expecting sub rosa help from Blair and the EUSSR, so doesn't need the help of the irritating "little people" and their dreadful little opinions.)

What an excruciatingly awful individual he is. I hope he goes down the pan at the GE.

If they replaced him with Boris, the Tories would be a shoo-in this time.

JONNY

To argue that Cameron should spend the first 2 years of his rule picking a fight with Europe (rather than dealing with the mountain of huge problems crowding his desk) is total idiocy.
Unless the fell intent is to sabotage him and re-elect Brown out of pure malice and spite.

Reg511

All of this beaviour may of course just be keeping his cards close to his chest. Imagine the electoral victory following Lisbon and President Blair, when Cameron calls a full in/out referendum.

Even sweeter, when you consider leaving Europe with Blair, and an end to the career gravy train for NuLabour aristocracy

Vulture

@Florence. I'd give up with Fatbloke if I were you. I've been trying some remedial teaching to correct his illiterate posts without success. He's a victim of Ed Balls' education.
He can't S-P-E-L-L. (He can't think either, but that's a separate issue).

JONNY

'Cameron is seeking to advance his own preferment in the EUSSR, as a member of the Nomenklatura,'

Can we have this in plain English please.

And to give him is due he is not yet proposing that the UK becomes the 51st State of America.

AAE

The Tories don't need to "win" any argument over the EU, just give the guy who operates the pipeline between the Treasury and the EU's bank account a very long holiday after the general election - they can blame a systems breakdown and institute a full-scale civil service inquiry to ensure that it never happens again - and I'm sure Merkel et al will be begging Cameron for a few minutes "face-time"!!

Mark

Fatbloke = troll
Verity = A bore who never changes the record. Yawn.

TrevorsDen

These posts do give us a chance to see the loony illiteracy of far too many of the anti EU brigade.

I do not loke the EU and the way its going. its doubtful that many do. But compared to the stupidity of many national governments its not surprising that most of Europe merely shrugs. Britain will drift that way too if we are not careful.

Thats why the post makes sense. A conservative govt is the most euro sceptic govt we will get. letting Labour back in would be a real disaster.

Thats why its pointless to bang on about a referendum if the treaty is fully ratified.

What counts is how a tory govt reacts to the way the EU is run under any new constitution. THEN a referendum on what might be agreed (or not) would indeed make sense.

But the constitution is not there YET! So why get worked up? Oh yes - the lefty media, desperate to unhinge the tories. Well sorry BBC this right winger is not biting.

Simon Stephenson

JONNY : 1.44pm

"To argue that Cameron should spend the first 2 years of his rule picking a fight with Europe (rather than dealing with the mountain of huge problems crowding his desk) is total idiocy."

But only yesterday you were describing me as a "nit" for questioning your assertion that Cameron is "far more" euro-sceptical than Brown or Clegg. How, pray, would you expect a committed euro-sceptic to behave? By ignoring it completely?

Or is the truth of the matter that Cameron's purported scepticism is a version of events that's about as straight as a corkscrew. Sure, there's a smokescreen that can be thrown up by describing him as "more sceptical" than Brown or Clegg, when the reality is that in absolute terms he's not sceptical at all. It's like saying Pol Pot was more humanitarian then either Hitler or Stalin because he ordered the deaths of far fewr people.

THX1138

On European treaties Dave is just following on a spineless tradition of Tory leaders talking tough on Europe to appease the Little Englander old fogey Saloon Bar boars the make up the Tory base so over represented on this blog But in the real world nodding everything through in double quick time after their paymasters in big business have laid down the law

Mrs T guillotined the Single European Act and Major never gave us a referendum on The Maastricht Treaty both far bigger constitutional upheavals than the constitutional tidying up of The Lisbon treaty.

Dave is is all piss and wind on this why not just say what he is going to do if the treaty is ratified by everyone else ? Because we all know the answer is NOTHING, Malcom Rifkind rather let the cat out of the bag

"But if the Treaty is ratified by all 27 member states, it will come into force. That cannot be reversed by a subsequent referendum in Britain."

Boris is playing silly buggers too:

"put key parts ... to the people" such as the need for a "European president".

Yeah Right!

I believe the W11 Clique are really freaked out by a genuine political heavyweight Blair back on the scene making the "Heir" look just that the "Heir" not the real thing. How they must spitting feathers that first day of the conference is hijacked by the leaderships two greatest foes Europe and TB

Verity

Sorry for using a Russian word, Jonny, but the language of the USSR is so apt for discussions concerning the EU. The Nomenklatura are highly placed appointees, or apparachiks, if you will.

And you are right, Cameron doesn't have the vision to seek to align us with the freest, even under Marxist Supremo Obama, country in the world. (Barring, Oz, which I would be equally happy for us to join formally.) If we have to join a large landmass, let it be one that speaks our language and has the legal system of English Common Law, not all that poncy Napoleonic rubbish.

Derek

The Lisbon Treaty is an Enabling Act.

Everyone who is agin it - to the gates of Buck House on 21st October at mid-day.

Verityred

Oh do change the droning old record Verity dear. Your post history is full of dull and predictable stodge that often becomes rather unpleasantly frothy around the chops if you get particularly excited. Hazlitt wrote a splendid essay 'On People With One Idea'. Do read it, it may save you yet!

CS

***so doesn't need the help of the irritating "little people" and their dreadful little opinions***

Assuming that you count yourself among the little people, Verity, you can't really blame Cameron. Your opinions are indeed dreadful.

Paul Williams

@TrevorsDen: These posts do give us a chance to see the loony illiteracy of far too many of the anti EU brigade.

I do not loke the EU and the way its going. its doubtful that many do

Your comment is comedy gold, but I bet you're unable to see why.

Duyfken

@verityred
I enjoy Verity's forthright attitude, exposing the chinks in Cameron's armour and the weaknesses in his policies.
Viva Verity

JONNY

' How, pray, would you expect a committed euro-sceptic to behave? By ignoring it completely?'
No.
By playing his cards with guile and subtlety. A longer cleverer game, with an exit strategy that works.
As opposed to the Simon Stephensons of this world crying over spilt milk.

And as for you Verity.
I'll keep my Englishness if you don't object. In comparison with which, in the immortal language of Shakespeare ...
your America sucks.

Fatbloke on tour

Ugly scabby burd

I fear I may have to fail you.
Just where is your Winnie homework?
This is the easy stuff.

Professional historian?
I don't think so.

Commando comics more like.

As noted before it is easier to find a spellchecker than an intellect.

In2minds

James Forsyth on Cameron - “But more important is that the party believes the leadership is Euro-sceptic”, some Tories are stupid but not all of them. I can remember when the press labelled Gordon Brown as eurosceptic, he never was!

Roue le Jour

I'm beginning to think I got Cameron all wrong. He isn't going to back out of the EU, he's probably going to sign up for Euro now we're at parity and likely to stay there.

I wonder what odds I could get?

Fatbloke on tour

Flo Jo

I don't know but it got you!

Next please ...

Verity

My eyes usually slide right past contributions by Number Plate as his bad grammar and misspellings offend. But "saloon bar boars" did catch my eye. Nothing is too trite for Number Plate to enumerate, and he always gets it comically wrong.

Number Plate Bore, many of the "little Englanders" you refer to in that old fashioned term - I think it's from about the 1930s, before we got airports on every street corner throughout Britain - actually live overseas. I live in N America, as does Hysteria, to name but two. And bereft-of-subscription Derek lives in China, as do a couple of others, I think. The vast majority of those living overseas, though live in France, Spain, Portugal and similar. "Little Englanders" is such an old-fashioned concept, and typically inept.

Minnie Ovens

Vulture
October 5th, 2009 1:01pm Report this comment
Is that what we really want?

Vulture, you make a statement saying we cannot change anything and then ask the above question. A bit confusing.
But I understand where you are coming from.
Many of us are horrified at the abject appeasement of the EC by all Westminster so far.
That goes for the Spectator columnists who are so scared of saying too much against Cameron and the "revitalized Conservative" party. I put that in parentheses because I am dubious as to their understanding of the traditional meaning of the word, Conservative.
It seems everyone is wringing their hands over the "impossibility" of doing anything about the Lisbon constitution.
These same pathetic figures have forgotten the two world wars in which their fathers and grandfathers fought to stop the domination by Germany of our democracy.
Mr Cameron could very easily repudiate the whole of the Labour treachery on the Constitution by bluntly stating he would give a referendum to the people upon whether they wish to belong to the EEC or the EC.
It is not for Westminster and Whitehall to witter on about pros and cons, it is about turning around and seeing an electorate of over 60 million people whom they have not included in their inane discussions.
A somewhat emotional poist I agree but where is the pride? where is the backbone? and, importantly, where is the memory of history among these arrogant egotists?
Yes, Cameron has a multitude of priorities on his hands but selling out to Europe means there is little point in him having priorities since the EC will decide those in future.
In other words if he doesn't act on the EC he is not needed.

Emil

Funny how Labour's betrayal over a promised referendum (one of several manifesto promises blatantly broken) was completely ignored by all and sundry last week.

Vulture

@Fatbloke - I know it may take a while to sink in, but its me who's trying to coach you. It's the duty of those of us who went to decent schools to help those who have only benefitted from a Ballsist edukashun.

Anyhow, its Eng. Lit. this week. Poet of the week Philip Larkin. Please learn and analyse:

"I want to see them starving, the so-called working class,/
Their wages weekly halving,/
Their women stewing grass./

And when I go out each morning,/
In one of my new suits,/
I want to see them fawning/
To clean my car and boots".

Goodness Fatso: he might be describing you - except for your obesity, of course.

Kalvis M. Jansons

I hope David keeps his promise:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Lisbon-ref/

Remember that you can also help by telling others about it!

JONNY

Nice one Roue Le Jour
together we could save the day (and the Pound)
by leaving Europe
and signing up to the Euro.
Now that be a sehr statesmanlike double whammy.

Denis Cooper

Firstly, I don't agree that Lisbon can give the euro-federalists everything they want and need.

It gives them huge scope, but still not enough, and in my view they will definitely need at least one more treaty.

Indeed the Liberal Democrat MEP Andrew Duff, President of the Union of European Federalists, said as much in a book he published a few months ago.

My guess is that if Lisbon comes into force, they'll quietly start preliminary work on the next treaty more or less straight away, with the aim of getting it in place within the following decade.

Would Cameron block this, when it began to surface a few years down the line? I'd like to think he would, but I'm finding that increasingly hard to believe.

There's just too much history of Tory politicians voicing complaints about the process of EU integration for party and public consumption, but then going along with it anyway, and Cameron hasn't demonstrated to me that he's significantly different from his integrationist predecessors going right back to Harold Macmillan.

Secondly, and intimately connected with this, GJTory @ 1:10 pm wrote:

"Surely the UK Parliament is sovereign and it can therefore make it so that any portion of any treaty is no longer an exclusive competence of the EU."

But from events on the evening of March 5th 2008 it appears that Cameron does not believe that the UK Parliament is sovereign, or wants it to sovereign, or wants it to assert its sovereignty.

If he did, he would not have sought to dissuade Tory MPs from voting for Bill Cash's New Clause 9 to affirm and defend the supremacy of Parliament, and he would not have had them sent home just before the division took place.

Avudale

The issue of Europe is potentially one of the most important in Britain's existance.

Never before have so many of our country's liberties been given away without any semblance of democratic process.

The unelected PM Brown did the dastardly deed with his scrawled signature, set into motion through the years by successive governments, all seemingly intent on moving Britain into a federalist superstate.

One referendum on joining the EEC trading bloc, and the rest is history!

Now with Lisbon, we are finally consigning the FCO to Luxembourg, to be nothing more than an outpost of the EU Federale HQ, run by a jamboree of unelected policymonkeys deciding Britain's future for us.

We are signing away our country's right to decide its own future, set our own policies, represent our own people. No longer shall the British government be the highest level of representation for the British people. London? Look to Brussels henceforth.

Britain will now be nothing more than a small troublesome island, a thorn in the side of the Franco-German axis. Why did we fight WW1 and WW2 again?

I agree with whoever said we should formalise the Anglosphere: after all, the entire Anglosphere is basically descendents of English people. We have the same ideals and ideas. Look at America, Australia, even Canada (barring the Franco influence) - they value idependence and their right to choose their own destiny. These are Anglo ideals, not Euro ideals of massive federalism.

Is this the end of Great Britain?

Athronydd Mawr

The majority here are euro-whingers, from which I dissent; for 3 reasons.

1. A policy which is opposed by Comrade Black, "Lord" Murdoch, and the Barclay Twins might just be a good one for ordinary people.

2. In 1962 I entered a speaking competition, subject - the Common Market. After reading up, I argued the case that our trade with Europe would come to dominate. So it has, in the nearly 50 years since. OK, the politics is not right, but that can be fixed if we really want to.

3. I had a lot of confidence in the judgement of Supermac. Certainly more confidence in his judgement than in that of the europhobes.

Fatbloke on tour

Ugly scavenging burd

It is beyond irony that on this day when the Tories publish plans to cut the dole you chose to put up those verses.

Poor timing I think.

That this would come from a low Tory of the worst sort shows a certain lack of understanding as well.

As for PL himself in detail, you can have him.

Lived in a Nazi supporting household = Check
Sexual predator of schoolgirls = Check
Sexual fantacist of schoolgirls = Check
Misogynistic indeed misanthropic = Check
1950's suburban curtain twitcher = Check
Draft Dodger = Check
Indeed who did more for the war effort - Him or Maggie?
Racist = Check
All round bad sort = Check

All this and you want me to understand him, appreciate him?

No, no and thrice no.

You and the rest of SpectatorLand have a right good champion in PL.

You sir / madam / it are a crack shot!
One bullet both feet.

You couldn't make it up.
Professional historian!?!

Herbert Thornton

"There is a reluctant acceptance here that Lisbon will have been ratified by next May and that the Tories won’t hold a post-ratification referendum. But it is important to understand why the leadership is getting away with a position that is so unpopular with the grassroots."

Well, it is doubtless interesting to ask why the leadership is getting away with it, but why is it so "important"? I should have thought that it far more important to ask ourselves who WILL, if elected, hold a referendum?

And we all know the answer to that - even though to actually state it is taboo.

Hotatio Yellowbeard (Capn)

Verity@3:52 Avast behind!

Careful with them slidin eyes. You dont want to be seen with them.

'Little Englander' be a state of mind not a physical state lest you countin them swivel eyes an frothy chops that them that has it has.

Harthacanute

"daily legislative creep"

Is there really no end to the preposterous nonsense that James will write in his inept fiction?