Vaclav Klaus caves into the "train carrying Lisbon"

TomTom

Que Sera, Sera.....even if it is another Thirty Years War in Europe

Irene

The problem is Cameron & Hague are taking all the flak for this - people demanding a referendum after the election are just crazy.

You simply can't have one if it has been ratified - end of.

Sure you can put it to the people for a vote but it will only ever be an opinion poll.

I don't understand so called intelligent people demanding a referendum even if it has been ratified - it just CAN'T happen.

At least with Cameron I don't think he will roll over to all the EU demands unlike the present shower we have.

The pressure on Klaus must be awful.

Denis Cooper

"The Czech Courts will rule on compatibility on the 27th October, after which the treaty will become law."

Not quite -

a) The court will hold a public hearing on that day, but its decision will come later;

b) Other complaints have been lodged, which may or may not be considered on that day;

c) We don't know for sure what the court will decide on any of these complaints;

d) Even if the court dismisses all these complaints, the Czech Republic still won't have ratified the treaty until Klaus has signed the instrument of ratification and it has been deposited with the Italian government;

e) The treaty would then come into legal force on the first day of the month after the month in which the Czech instrument of ratification had been deposited.

Last June the BBC gave a summary of the British process of ratification, here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7465665.stm

involving three pages of goatskin parchment and the great seal; no doubt the Czech process would be different in some respects, but it would still have to end up with formal ratification documents being handed to the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

As for the Conservative reaction to this happening before next June, as now seems almost certain - at least there'll be no more room for obfuscation, and they'll have to start spelling out exactly what they would propose to do.

Sean O'Hare

Oh Dear, That is the last hope gone then, how depressing! If the treaty does come into effect before the GE and we don't get an in/out referendum pledge from Cameron then Ukip it just has to be.

Christopher Bowring

We are no longer a sovereign nation and must leave the European Union. I am looking to David Cameron to show us the way.

denverthen

I am pretty sick and tired of "accommodating" the endless drain of power from sovereign nations to unelected Brussels bullies.

I place the Lisbon betrayal not at Klaus' door, as some will, but squarely at Labour's. They are responsible for the U-turn on a referendum that would have killed this ridiculous, sinister supranational "constitution" stone dead; they should and will be harshly punished for it at the next election.

As for Brown - his days are now surely numbered. Good.

Tiberius

Can you expand on these abounding rumours, David? I think those sceptical of Cameron will need some more substance.

Liz Brown

Now is the time for Cameron to show his cojones and promise a total renegotiation and repatriation of powers back to Britain - as mentioned there is no point in now holding a referendum unless it is the Europe in or out one............

Pip

This is so depressing - must admit I had high hopes they would hold out. Now we face the prospect of David Cameron trying to reclaim powers when people like Blair, Mandelson and their accolytes will do everything they can to undermine the Tory leader. No wonder Blair and his lot changed the treason law. I still find it hard to believe that Labour could promise a referendum in their manifesto and then, once elected, say they have changed their minds. I know Stuart Wheeler challenged this is court and lost because it was ruled that a manifesto pledge was not legally binding. Well, except in the most exceptional circumstances, it should be. We now cannot believe election pledges so how are we supposed to make a judgement?

david

I told you that Eric Pickles would be right, he said, 'I have it on good authority that the Czech's won't sign' bloody genius that man, give him a pie.

Paul Hughes

Heart-breaking news. There was always a hope. It was a little like those international matches where the defeated English team showed a little life towards the end and one hoped....

Now it's all over. A mort les trahisseurs Travaillistes! They will pay. They will pay through the knowledge that it was they who wrecked the perfectly decent idea of an economic trading area. They have forced the British into this constitution and so they have signalled the end of any hope of a rational accord between sovereign nations. We are now Austria-Hungary writ large. We know what happened to them and it would have happened even without the Great War.

You've doomed the EEC, Labour. You've doomed it to explosion through your arrogant belief that the elites can steer public opinion. It's your job to steer, lead and reflect it, not to place it in a straightjacket.

**** you all!

Jordan

Great news. Now EU decision-making can be based on consensus rather than the agreement of all 27 nations. What madness led to EU enlargement from 15 to 27 members without this change I don't know.

Any unhappy members ater Lisbon comes into force can always exit the EU (something USSR members couldn't do - hence my confusion when some make comparisons)

Denis Cooper

Irene -

The British Parliament is still sovereign, and while that remains the case it can order a national referendum on anything it likes. So even if the Lisbon Treaty had already come into force, Parliament could nonetheless decide to consult the people about it through a referendum.

The question could be along these lines:

"Do you agree that the United Kingdom should cancel its approval of the Lisbon Treaty?"

Then the government could take it from there on the basis on the result.

1. If the answer was "no", then that would be the end of the matter.

2. If the answer was "yes", then the government could point out the referendum result to the other EU governments and say:

"We need to talk, because now that we have given them the opportunity to speak the Bitish people have said that this treaty is unacceptable to them."

Apart from anything else, a referendum specifically on the Lisbon Treaty would put down a marker for the absolute minimum of demands to be met in any subsequent re-negotiation - namely, a comprehensive exemption from all its provisions, as far as that was technically possible.

Otherwise, we could end up voting on whether we'd be happy to stay in the EU provided we could go back to having blue passport covers ...

Bear in mind that strictly speaking any referendum in the UK can only ever be a consultative referendum, not a constitutionally binding referendum like those in some other countries such as Ireland.

Publius

@Irene
"I don't understand so called intelligent people demanding a referendum even if it has been ratified - it just CAN'T happen."

Referendum question:
Do you want the UK to take back the sovereignty ceded in the Lisbon Treaty? YES/NO

However...
It would be better, if Lisbon is ratified, to go the whole hog and take back far more sovereignty that has been handed over - not just that ceded by Lisbon.

Note that TAKE is the operative word. The sovereignty is ours to do with as we choose. We do not need to wait for Brussels to deign to sweep a few crumbs from the high table.

Andrew

After that lamentable movie in the late 1990s, my favorite T-shirt (spotted in Baltimore) read:

"SS Titanic.

The ship sank.

Get over it."

egh

Serves us right. Complete bunch of invertebrates: jelly-fish cowards. What other species rely on others to stand up against the euSSR? What other species haven't even the guts or brains to confront a bunch of actors like Bliar, Mandelslime and herr brun?

I never expected the British to become followers, grovellers, and serfs, instead of leaders and free people. It's so despicable I can hardly bear to be one of us: the only thing that keeps me going is the need to preserve the heritage that is being squandered and trashed.

And yes Cameron should give us a referendum: in or out - regardless of what the Irish and the Czechs have decided.

David Ossitt

Denis Cooper

Spot on Denis.

John Law

David cameron will have to come up with something pretty radical, or it is pointless voting for any of the mainstream parties, it won't make much difference to our decline. UKIP look the best bet combined and maybe a massive campaign to stop the UK contributing soldiers to any international wars or peacekeeping. Let the EUSSR do its own fighting.

Jerome Tweedy

Socialism, and all forms of communism are but the preversion where tyranny and the control of others are put in the place of Freedom and God Given Rights.
I appreciate Vaclav Klaus as an individual of Integrity and Honor. Who will stand with him, it is hard when an individual has to stand and finds so very little support. The European Union is not anything that serves the People and Nations of Europe but gives control to the international bankers, politicians that have an agenda not of the LIGHT but of a sinister nature so perverse and diabolical. The Peoples of all nation so long to be FREE, FREEDOM is God Given!

Avudale

Unless I've been trapped in an underground cave for the last 30 years, Britain can still do whatever it likes. Perhaps the Lisbon Treaty would create a situation where Britain deciding to leave the EU or opt out of various measures would lead to a land invasion by the German and French Armies, in which case I say bring it on Europe.

We can do whatever we wish; any statement by the Tories that "once it's ratified, that's it" is nonsense.

I'm fed up of Brussels sticking its fingers in everywhere.

Ray

Britain's assumed ratification changes nothing. The EU cannot force us to abide by its terms if there is no popular support for the Treaty (something that New Labour lacked the courage to put to the test).

Either the EU concedes this and allows a Cameron government to put it to a popular vote or we tell Brussels what the Slovenes told Belgrade in 1991: kiss our a**e because we're on our way out of your federation whether you like it or not.

Will Barroso be able to put tanks on the streets of Manchester or Bristol to stop us? I don't think so.

Nicholas

Jordan, what exactly is the difference between "consensus" and "agreement" of 27 nations?

Whenever I hear the word "consensus" I run like hell. It usually means nothing of the sort but rather that a minority of self-styled experts have decided what they will impose on the majority. Is that the case here?

As for EUSSR I think that is more a reference to the communist style bullying rather than the strict technicalities of leaving.

Jade

So now what, all you smart talking coffee house posters?
Come on smart arses,give your penny's worth!
Acording to some of you we can't have a referendum. WHY NOT?
According to some of you Cameron will be such a wimp we might as well just go along with the flow.
Wailing and whining on here day in day bloody out, you are the wimps!
If you all feel THAT STRONGLY about something spend your time PROTESTING in the REAL world OUTSIDE!!!!!!
You can say what you like on here...in cyber space NO ONE CAN HEAR YOU SCREAM!!!!!!!
Who cares about Europe? Brussells have been running us for over a decade and none of you are dead yet so what's the problem?
Better working conditions, better benefits paid, less house buying,more rental,no housing bubble etc.No MP's.
People are more detatched, mainly through booze or drugs,who gives a shit anymore?
When the university students find it okay to piss on a memorial wreath of a dead veteran,Europe has got what it always wanted.That is what the second world war was about.Big deal what's done is done.If the next generation has no respect for their history why worry? It is them who will inherit what happens today.STOP moaning & get out more.

Derek

We have sovereignty and can exercise it as long as we have independent armed forces.That is no doubt the next item on the EU's agenda. It should also be the next on ours.

Stewart

The Conservatives, had they the will, could take Vaclav Klaus' metaphor and build on it. If enough public anger could be raised over the way this constitution has been foisted upon the people of Europe by a small band of political elites then it is perhaps possible that instead of a referendum on the treaty, we could have a referendum on our membership of the EU. Use the treaty to make the wider point of EU unaccountability, the corruption of the EU Commission, the cost of the institutions and the continued loss of political and economic independence. For people to be angry with the EU they have to understand how corrupt it is, how expensive it is and how lacking in democratic legitimacy it is. The exposure of an expenses scandal as well as of past EU Commission sins could build up anti-EU sentiment. I can imagine a future PM Hague saying, "If we can't have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, we'll have a referendum on our membership of the EU". The Conservatives, with a big majority, could be radical. All of the constitutional vandalism done by Labour in the name of 'modernity' could be washed away with one albeit risky vote. Blair Brown and Mandelson could be eclipsed in the history books by a Conservative front bench that brought back our sovereignty from the continent and said 'Never again shall the Queen's subjects answer to a higher court than that of her Lords. Never again shall our laws be subject to compatability with those of our neighbours and never again shall foreign voters determine the fates of British people." Unfortunately the will is not there amongst any of our future political leaders nor have they the media through which to propagate an anti-EU message on a consistent basis. All the more reason for the disbandment of the BBC. The destruction of the left in the UK cannot be completed whilst its mouthpiece is paid for by a tax.

seb

The EU's leaders' sole achievement [one can't seriously credit an organisation this corrupt and dysfunctional with more than one] is to have created a club in the form of a lobster pot. You can join but those words in the constitution that say you can leave some time later are not to be taken seriously. When its uselessness for anything beyond the provision of sinecure posts for has-beens is clear to all, the EU will endure the same fate as the USSR - a sort of undramatic dissolution. I don't foresee a repeat of the Thirty Years' War.

Dirty Euro

"instead of leaders and free people" So in other words it OK to run a empire but not OK to be a federation of democratic states that makes senses.

Ian C

The referendum wordings as suggested by Dennis Cooper and Publius would be vote winners for the Tories and Cameron should consider that as a course.

The problem is that a commitment to that now would put Europe front and back of the election campaign, not the record of the worst Government the UK has ever seen who must be blown away emphatically.