EXCLUSIVE: What was said in Question Time
Fraser Nelson 10:06pm
First question on the Second World War. Is it fair BNP hijacked Churchill? Straw says in the war Britain defeated a party based on race like the BNP. The BNP defines itself by race - that distinguishes it from every other party. All other parties have a moral compass. Nazism didn't and neither does the BNP. We only won the First and Second World War because we were joined by millions of black and Asian people. Applause.
Griffin then counters by saying Churchill would have been in BNP. He described Churchill as Islamaphobic by today's standards. "The government is giving up on British freedom," said Griffin.
An audience member says the BNP are an absolute disgrace. For just one minute think of the benefits black people people have brought to the UK. "You are trying to poison politics. What you stand for is disgusting." Huge applause. David Davis asks if he denied the Holocaust. Griffin smiled and said Holocaust was used by allies.
Then Warsi came in, saying any party which has values of BNP does not share values of Churchill. Disgusting to use Churchill. She quoted Mark Collett, a BNP officer, saying Churchill led us into pointless wars.
Bonnie Greer was her cool, calm self. Said Churchill's ancestral past meant he could not have joined the BNP. Audience member said Enoch Powell's views were identical to those of Griffin. Then Huhne chipped in: we are delaing with a politics of finding people to blame, to scapegoat. It's what Enoch Powell did. We had this in the 30s v the Jews, 60s v Blacks and now Griffin with immigrants. Peddling hatred. Griffin is a fascist. Quotes Griffin saying "every last one should go".
Then Griffin struck back. it's all lies, he says. Never said Adolf went too far. Dimbleby says he was there with David Duke of KKK (at a meeting in US). Griffin got very nervous, started shaking - under full attack from all. Dimbleby quoted Griffin saying "instead of taljking about racial purity we talk about identity"
Griffin said he shared a platform with a non violent member of the KKK - audience laughed. Straw: "We have seen that the moment anyone puts an uncomfortable quote to him he wriggles. I have seen his quotes on You Tube. He wants to wriggle out of it. The BNP have a manual to tell them how to speak. The language and concepts discipline manual. They are the only party who have to tell their party not to be racist."
This was when Straw said Griffin is the Dr Strangelove of British politics. (He tries to control his extremist politics but he can't stop himself like the Peter Sellers character) The audience started laughing at Griffin.
Audience member: why is Islam "wicked"?
NG: It treats women as second class citizens. Has "good points" but does not fit in with fundamental values of British society. My policy on Islam is a truce with Islam. We should leave countries alone and ensure if Muslims stay here they do so understandiung we are a British country. Britain must always remain a fundamentally Christian country.
Warsi: Griffin is a "confused man". Griffin shared platform with Abu Hamza, Gaddafi. He is a thoroughly deceptive man. He is here to demonise Islam.
Immigration question - is rise of BNP due to misguided Labour policy?
Jack Straw: net reduction in migration. We are controlling numbers better - points based system. Asylum down. Put should we stop people coming here? Certainly not. This country's great stregth is diversity. 30 percent of population in Blackburn is Muslim.
If you want to know why they won in NW it was to do with discontent with all parties.
Warsi and Huhne attack government over immigration.
Griffin: Lib Dems masquerading as anti-immigration. A multicultural programme has been imposed by the liberal elite. The indigenous Britons.
Jack Straw: You mean white?
NG: "Indigenous." The English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh. We are the aborigines here. The majority of the British people. He accused Straw of racism. We feel shut out in our country.
Previous
AngloWelshDragon
October 22nd, 2009 10:21pm Report this commentIt was obvious the way this would go . Everyone ganged up on Griffin and he proved himself to be a a complete t*sser as we all knew all along.
Dosen't deal with the fundamental issues of mass immigration, lack of integration and aggressive islamification though.
The BNP are a vile bunch of lefties, the main parties won't acknolwedge the problem so where will working class people turn who love their country, aren't racist but are sick of feeling like strangers in their own land?
This issue is building a head of steam and if Nick Griffin doesn't have what it takes to harness it, and the tories are too embarrased to harness it I can see the EDL reaping the benefit.
Even if tonight finishes off Nick Griffin, the debate is only just begining.
Noa Zrk
October 22nd, 2009 10:27pm Report this comment"30 percent of population in Blackburn is Muslim".
And what percentage of the population of Pakistan is European or Christian?
AndyinBrum
October 22nd, 2009 10:41pm Report this commentWhy care?
If you want to believe in a mystical being, you're all as mad as each other. All hail the Spaghetti Monster
Bob Frost
October 22nd, 2009 10:42pm Report this commentIn reply to Noa Zrk according to Wiki 1.6% of Pakistani population are Christian.
AngloWelshDragon
October 22nd, 2009 10:46pm Report this commentGriffin is right to say people feel left out in this country. No one asked us what we wanted. At uni I became lifelong friends with muslim girls who wore jeans and makeup, now their daughters wear niqab and look down their noses at their own parents. So it's not just me who wants to know how this was allowed to happen, many 2nd/3rd/4th generation immigrants do to. My friends are afraid to speak out because society is more interested in pandering to the extremists than helping those who try to integrate.
Verity
October 22nd, 2009 10:47pm Report this commentThe ever-igorant Straw said that Hitler ran war based on race. No he didn't. He ran a war for lebensraum.
WWII was not even vaguely about the Jews. The concentration camps and the awful pictures of the death trains were not known until the end of the war. Hitler's war was one of territorial aggression in Europe.
AngloWelshDragon
October 22nd, 2009 10:59pm Report this commentNote to Baroness Warsi. Thanks for offering to listen, but what we really want is for someone to act.
Mark Cannon
October 22nd, 2009 11:00pm Report this commentNoa, that is a silly question: if the percentage is low it is not for want of trying by Christian missionaries under the Raj. Mr Griffin is beyond the pale. My only concern is that some might think he has been set up by the BBC because the audience looks younger and more diverse than usual. But Mr Griffin deserves it.
RGtx
October 22nd, 2009 11:04pm Report this commentThis "moral compass" that Jack Straw speaks of, is it somekind of neurosensory implant, preventing MPs straying, too far, from the trough?
Colin
October 22nd, 2009 11:06pm Report this commentThis is like watching sixth formers playing at politicians. Pathetic...
Mirtha Tidville
October 22nd, 2009 11:08pm Report this commentStraw is a first class waffler and Dimbleby has just had him over a barrel re liebour`s immigration policy........as for Warsi Dear God is this the best the Tories could find...hope it gets better or I`ll try ITV
Tiberius
October 22nd, 2009 11:20pm Report this commentSaeeda wipes the floor with Straw after his utter waffle over immigration.
If only Straw would get as angry with Ahmadinajad as he has with Griffin.
Even Huhne makes Straw look like a lemon!
Paul Hughes
October 22nd, 2009 11:31pm Report this commentI'll begin by stressing that I do not vote BNP and neither do I fall for their lies and venom. Nonetheless, this was a sham of a program. The BBC pleaded free speech and then proceeded to ambush Nick Griffin with a program devoted entirely to questions of an "isn't he awful!?" nature.
He may be awful, but if he needs an excuse to bleat about the conspiracy of the elites, this program gave him plenty.
Wasn't question time supposed to be about current affairs? This program was nothing more than a stitch up. Good television, a poor attempt at impartiality.
TomTom
October 22nd, 2009 11:34pm Report this commentWhat an overhyped and awful programme. It revealed Jack Straw to have no wish for any immigration control, but was overall low-grade and frankly made one despair of the political system as a whole. I don't see any positive outcomes in this country as this programme could not even address issues properly or beyond the student level of the audience
winston smith
October 22nd, 2009 11:41pm Report this commentWho cares what the chattering classes think - I'll still be voting BNP.
C Ingoldby
October 22nd, 2009 11:42pm Report this commentHostile audience, hostile panel, biased chariman.
And yet N Griffin is keeping his cool and making his points.
This charade is managing to make the BNP look like the victims of bullying, rather than the bullies. All it will do is gain the BNP sympathy.
anne allan
October 22nd, 2009 11:42pm Report this commentJack Straw was an absolute joke. Waffled and ranted. One very worried man.
The two women were the best - they were relatively factual and calm compared with the hyperventilating men.
Overall, a poor broadcast, since nobody seemed capable of rising above Griffin baiting, which became monotonous and predictable.
Ben Elford
October 22nd, 2009 11:46pm Report this commentAfter all that high-sounding talk about debating the issues with the leader of the BNP, all we got was shouting and jeering, and nearly all of it about the BNP and Mr Griffin rather than about the important political debates of the week.
After all the hype, and all the shouting, what a sense of bathos. Poor chairmanship, panel members making cheap points and a lynch mob mentality on the part of the audience. Very poor stuff.
Tiberius
October 22nd, 2009 11:50pm Report this commentOh, Verity: mein Kampf rather contradicts your view.
James
October 23rd, 2009 12:06am Report this commentQuestion Time this evening looked like a Maoist show trial, where enemies of the revolution were denounced.
Eugene
October 23rd, 2009 12:16am Report this commentB N P is still in it`s infancy. Tonight`s Question Time has further proved this
Brit
October 23rd, 2009 12:27am Report this commentThe B N P are voicing basically what discontented members of the voting population genuinely feel. A voice in Parliament, although possibly not manifested correctly, which is what all discontented voters are looking for, can only lead them to the B N P
Verity
October 23rd, 2009 12:31am Report this commentRGtx - V good!
YA
October 23rd, 2009 12:39am Report this commentThat reminds me circus where crowd of happy clowns kick, and spit at, and pinch anoher happy clown. The most touching were moments when they tried to score points against each other by using Griffin's remnants, cake-throwing style. I was in tears, what a velvet teddy bears our liberal politicians. Not without smell, though.
Nicholas
October 23rd, 2009 12:47am Report this commentFar from analysing and debating BNP policies the programme was little short of an organised anti-BNP rally. Griffin was hardly ever allowed to continue, let alone finish, although Straw was permitted to waffle on endlessly. Dimbleby was particularly bad, introducing ad hominem attacks against Griffin almost every time he tried to speak.
The only person who seemed able to maintain a composed, rational level of engagement throughout was Bonnie Greer and it was gratifying to hear her defend freedom of expression so robustly - something the three stooges of Lib/Lab/Con conspiciously failed to do with any conviction.
The main party reps twisted and turned with weasel words and impromptu party political broadcasts but none of them faced up to the realities of 12 years of uncontrolled immigration and the ghettoisation of communities. Their response to Griffin and the BNP, was collectively immature and strident. I felt sorry for Griffin, not because I empathise with his politics, but because the whole charade demonstrated only too clearly the way the liberal left of all three main parties have manipulated both the debate and the words used in it.
Noa Zrk
October 23rd, 2009 12:49am Report this commentBob Frost. Many thanks. I assume the number of Christians is declining and the number of Pakistanis of European origin is not scaleable.
Noa Zrk
October 23rd, 2009 1:01am Report this commentMark Cannon:
You missed my point, wilfully I expect.You won't find a distinct and vociferous ethnic minority of proselytizing European Christians in Pakistan, or India or Bangladesh. What Europeans there were generally left after independence. New arrivals cannot gain citizenship, preach christianity or buy land, so no inconvenient diversity problems there. Missionaries in the Raj? Disingenous balderdash!
Noa Zrk
October 23rd, 2009 1:07am Report this commentVerity. "The ever-igorant Straw said that Hitler ran war based on race. No he didn't. He ran a war for lebensraum".
Forgive me! My failing eyesight caused me to misread this as "He ran a war for Lesbianism". Of course he didn't, and as you usually do, you make your point succinctly and accurately.
Roy Smith
October 23rd, 2009 1:29am Report this commentIf these people are proud of having a population of 35% Muslim. Then they are then not proud of the 100% native British up to, and over the war years?
daniel maris
October 23rd, 2009 2:43am Report this commentI think on balance the BNP benefitted from this exposure. They should not have been invited on. But more importantly they should not be allowed to stand for parliament as they will dismantle all democracy if they ever get the chance. Only parties committed to the basic rules of democracy should be allowed to stand.
That said, he had some hits with Churchill.
Churchill was indeed an Islamophobe - quite rightly too some of us will say, who consider the label a badge of honour.
He did call gay love "sodomy".
He certainly opposed the UK entering the EU.
He did have concerns about mass immigration.
Less nobly he was an imperialist who, it is said ,used the N word frequently and thought white Europeans should rule brown and black people.
One can't imagine him voting for or being a member of the BNP but one can't imagine him being v. happy with Cameronian Conservatism either.
Herbert Thornton
October 23rd, 2009 3:41am Report this commentTiberius -
I think it was Verity and not you who got it right.
It is clear from Mein Kampf that Hitler detested Jews, but if their extermination had been his main aim there was no need to start a war to accomplish it. Indeed, he could, without starting the war, have perpetrated the Holocaust even more efficiently than he did. So why start the war?
Hitler went to war, as Verity says, to pursue his goal of obtaining lebensraum.
Amadeus Plonquer
October 23rd, 2009 4:47am Report this commentWe should never lose sight of the fact that Jack Straw's own father refused to join the rest of the country in our fight against Hitler. Principled? Certainsly not. Coward? Like father like son.
AngloWelshDragon
October 23rd, 2009 9:40am Report this commentJust as predicted the no-marks on the panel, Dimblebore and the not-at-all-representative sub-student audience turned the whole thing into a show trial.
Griffin wasn't helped by the dredging up of some of his past comments, or the embarrassing KKK business. He should have been a bit more careful in his younger days!
The main losers however were the ordinary people of this country who are not allowed to hear or take part in a rational, reasoned debate on immigration or islamification.
If the main parties succeed in killing off the BNP and stifling further debate through this charade don't imagine the issues will go away. I am afraid one day it will blow this country apart.
george
October 23rd, 2009 10:41am Report this commentPoor quality programme and without depth.People are concerned about immigration and if the BNP address it,albeit in a crude way,then people will vote against the Jack Straws of this world who will not arrest chain immigartion from Pakistan or Bangladesh,because 30 percent of his voters would turn on him immediately.He also mentioned the Australian style points system for immigration without mentioning Australia like Canada has a quota in place as well.As for Baroness Warsi,nice words,but will there be action.
Small point-the Holocaust,read Christopher Browning-The Origins of the Final Solution.It was the failure of all measures leading to the inability of the resettlement of the Jewish population overseas that lead to the dreadful conclusion.
Tiberius
October 23rd, 2009 11:46am Report this commentHerbert and Verity: it pains me to agree with Straw, believe me, and you are free to interpret Hitler's motivations as you wish, but to me Lebensraum was to be found in the East because it was populated by Untermenschen, most of whom were Slavs, and many of whom were Jews.
Merlinski
October 23rd, 2009 3:34pm Report this commentAs an immigrant, I have but one thing to say:
"All your base belong to us."
:)
David Ossitt
October 23rd, 2009 4:26pm Report this commentdaniel maris
"They should not have been invited on. But more importantly they should not be allowed to stand for parliament as they will dismantle all democracy if they ever get the chance"
daniel. you silly prat, you would be dismantling democracy, if you stop anybody standing.
Verity
October 23rd, 2009 8:40pm Report this commentMerlinksy - V good!
Godders
October 26th, 2009 11:43am Report this commentDid anyone else think the 'questioners' looked straight from Multicult Central Casting: the immaculately pinstriped black man, the sympathetic little Jewish Boy, the Cockney Asian; the anti-racist kid in a Newcastle Utd shirt. It was like a scripted piece in a Lib/Lab/Con Party Political Broadcast - and just about as believable
Back to top