Tin pot Griffin fluffs his lines

Noa Zrk

Well Lloyd, its a cheery, sneery little piece you've managed to produce and its plain your take on QT reflects the chatterati party line. But then no views on the new left were ever going to be changed by this staged debate. Consider it a triumph for the snide if you like. The general public we see it as the show trial it was and make their views accordingly. Griffin at least has demonstrated physical courage in facing a lynch mob. Patriotism is they say, the last refuge of the scoundrel, and if the size of the politicians ubiquitious poppies is anything to go by Warsi was the biggest of the lot.
By the way if Griffin's name is derived from the dragon he's far more likely to be joining you back in Llanelli for a quiet and objective debate on future of welsh politics than taking the high road to Baghdad.

DavidDP

He's right though. Griffin helps to show that whoever we are, we are all British. Much to his disgust.

Stepeny

For a political mega-event it was really a bit crap. The only one to come out of it well was Bonnie Greer who at least had a sense of humour.
Jack Straw lived up to his surname as usual (is there anyone in public life more toothless?), Varsi was suprisingly competent for once, Dimbleby a royal pain in the arse and the audience predictably non-representative. The real losers however were Huhne and the Production team.

Keeping the debate to just the BNP and allowing panel members and Dimbleby to shout down Griffin was a spectacular own goal. He could easily have condemned himself by his own uninterrupted words and by his ignorance of other issues.

Huhne was simply awful: pompous, holier-than-thou, more non-racist-than-thou and his droning waffling astonishingly poor.

It's a shame, given the make up of the panel, that no-one brought up Proportional Representation - I, for one, would have like to see Huhne's face when it was explained to him that the implementation of his Holy Grail would reward the BNP with up to 30-40 seats in the commons.

The enemy within?

Oscar India

I think this, along with much other comment this morning, misses the point. The media and leberals generally are delighted that they've shown Griffin to be racist by talking about racism for 60 minutes on TV with him. How many potential BNP voters do we really think will vote differently because of this? None. They knew he was racist before the programe. Those people who might vote BNP but are not fascists saw nothing last night to change their minds. They see Griffin as extreme, but agree witht he core of his argument, and see no alternative to vote for. What could have happened last night was that griffin and BNP could have been forced to discuss their wider policy agenda and engage on issues outside their core beliefs. At that point, those potential, non-fascist BNP voters would have seen that they're basically lunatics without a clue. Instead Griffin was allowed to appear outnumbered by people who wanted to force him to stop speaking. Much liberal back-slapping this morning, but I suspect not a single potential BNP vote has turned.

Paul B

I think LLoyds take on the show is right. Griffin came across as the reptilian creature he is . Sweaty, slimy and the possessor of repugnant views that hes desperately trying to hide. Well done to the BBC for having the courage to have him on.

Lastly, it looked to me as if Griffin wanted to fondle Bonnie Greer,who I thought was quite excellent and succinct in her comments.

Richard

Question Time was like a microcosm of how this country is run with Griffin as the ordinary man being hectored, bullied and assaulted by all three political parties and the BBC joining in to kick him when he's down. Just like our society, anyone who objects to the "wisdom" of the main three corrupt political parties is harassed and punished with no mercy shown. Any smoker, eater of junk food, drinker, driver of a 4x4 or non conformist of any hue will have recognised the treatment that was meted out to Griffin and sympathised with him.

The self satisfied moral superiority of the panel, audience and Chairman was sickening.

Michael Booth

"Thanks to the BNP, we were given proof tonight of the rag-bag unity of our society".

Or were we given proof of the rag-bag unity of a hand picked metropolitan audience and members of the Anti-Fascist League? Can we be a little more analytical please?

strapworld

By the way television pictures showed Griffin being driven, in a blue car,into the BBC television centre.

No doubt faced with the same intimidation you would just walk through the mob and they would just part and let you through!!

I find this childish nonsense so full of untruths and utter tripe I cannot believe the Spectator allowed it!

I believe in fair play. I believe that the press have to display a fair reporting of events and this is so so ridiculous.

I suggest the author be sent to Burnley, Oldham, warrington and meet the people who support the BNP. It might help him to understand their reasoning.

I abhor the BNP but I also abhor the 'mainstream' parties for forgetting from whence they came!

But, Mr Fraser, this piece does not add to responsible debate.

Mike

I really do not think the media living in the rarefied air of their little cocoon's, can appreciate how bad it look's to others when a single individual has to play a football match against 11 other player's in front of their home crowd, and to add insult to injury you also take his boots away, thereafter trying too belittle the man as being inept?
Maybe there is some truth that the water supply contains high levels of female hormones as you journalists are sounding more and more like little girls tattling on Johnnie.

Whatever happened to the so called British sense of fair play?

Will J

So we all agree (or most of us do anyway) that Britishness is not defined by ethnicity. And that is surely true, since no nation has ever been racially pure, least of all ours. What I'm interested in, though, is what role people think ethnicity should play in national identity. The very idea of a nation is of course birth related (root: natal), and even immigrants seem to think that those who have been here for longer and were born here have more rights over the country's resources than those who just managed to stow themselves away on a lorry.

So while we're generally agreed that British citizenship should not have any narrowly ethnic meaning, does this mean we no longer believe that the resident and historic population (of whatever racial mixture) does not in some sense own its country? If so, doesn't that cause big problems for the whole idea of statehood, since by what right then do those of us here keep out those who are not? And why do we generally recognise the historic rights of indigenous peoples in former colonies? While the BNP's political philosophy of ethnicity is clearly wrong, our own seems very confused at present. Would we not be in a better position to oppose them if we had a clear (and popular) alternative?

Peter From Maidstone

What is happening at the Spectator? This is utter rubbish. A load of cr*p that is not worth the time spent writing it or reading it. You have entirely missed the point that it is not all about Griffin, it is not all about the BNP. It is about real issues of mass immigration, multiculturalism and militant Islam.

I don't want to read this sort of rubbish in the Spectator, it is why I stopped reading the New Statesman. I thought that the Spectator produced balanced, thoughtful analysis and comment. I am rapidly wondering if things have changed.

Amadeus Plonquer

Greetings from Beijing. I am a six foot tall blond haired, blue eyed, Scots born caucasian. I live in China. That doesn't mean I'm Chinese. And like most foreigners here I respect and enjoy the Chinese cultures - both old and new - and I don't try to impose my ideas on Chinese people. This, I believe, is the expected behaviour of a Briton abroad.

Yet in the UK these same Britons tolerate people from other lands arriving on their shores and deliberately setting about to change the communities to better suit their imported self image. They show scant if any respect for British society and British ways. Worse, they are praised and supported by the 'liberal' left who shun their own parents' traditions in favour of some mythical and bland multiculturism - another aspect of socialism.

Nick Griffin should forget about the immigrants and offer to deport the liberals.

Oh and by the way the only problem with living in China is that here you can't get a decent cup of tea.

Peter From Maidstone

Lloyd, 'Griffin' is a Welsh name. The fact that you are so sloppy even over something as easy to check as that shows that you actually treat the readership of the Spectator with a degree of contempt. It doesn't matter what you write, whether a load of lies and untruths, we will apparently lap it up.

Swiss Bob

I think it was a mistake to focus on Griffin the whole programme, everyone knows he's a racist, tell us something new, let's see his other policies examined for their weaknesses.

Pathetically amateur debate, I've seen better in classrooms. Question Time on YouTube.

Nimble

Can' stand the BNP but this really is a pathetic sneering little piece, which much like the QT show last night, does not make me sympathise with the BNP; but hate the mainstream even more. It has no place in a sensible forum like the Speccy

welease woger

Tin pot Straw fluffed his lines too.

Labour's traditional vote is going AWOL and some of it is heading to the BNP. So what? Who cares apart from the Labour chiefs who now have to try and win back the small-minded racist social failures whose vote they have always been happy to accept. But how to do it without appearing overtly racist themselves? British jobs for British workers anyone?

The BNP is a threat to New Labour not democracy.

The rest of the panel were pretty poor except for Sayeeda Warsi who was pitch perfect and managed to skewer Straw without appearing to be overtly playing party politics.

Welsh Drinker

Itâ™s sad to say but I really feel that if the B&P spend some money on PR and got themselves a new handsome charismatic leader with charm and personality then they would do very well in politics. Look what a new set of teeth and a lovely smile have done for Gordon!!

I watched the show during a lock at my local pub and most of the drinkers present were sympathetic to Old Nick. They are not politically savvy, just ordinary Welsh drunks who have a vote. To a man (+ 2 ladies) they loath Hain and whatever he would advocate they will ridicule.
Mass immigration is a huge problem to them and although they voted labour for years a strong BNP candidate would certainly get their vote now.

The fact that Straw is still a trot and his father went to jail rather than fight the Boch went down really badly and I mean badly!

On the other hand Griffins use of Churchill is a big mistake; he is still a hate figure in the Welsh valleys not far behind Mrs Thatcher.
The main parties should see this as a wake up call and get to grips with immigration, thatâ™s what the general public see as a priority.

Martyn Rowe

I ended up feeling slighly sorry for him, given that he was 'bear-pitted' in such a way.

If I can feel like that, living in my cosy little village light-years from the immigration-hit towns the BNP targets, then I bet thousands of potential BNP voters would have felt even more sympathetic with him, and that will win him votes.

He is a narrow minded and pathetic man, but the BBC set him up and I think a lot of people will be annoyed about that.

TrevorsDen

Noa seems to demonstrate why the whole exercise will be good news for the BNP and why the BBC were pompously wrong to invite him.

Strap old chap - the conservatives fought the last election on an anti immigration platform, and they have been out of power for nearly 13 years. The current immigration and accelerating population issues are all down to Labour. otherwise you are correct - the issue has been dodged and the BNP take advantage. One cannot help but wonder if the BBC's concern is not the BNP as such but the effect they might have on the Labour vote - hence the 45 minute 'hate'.

Sarah

@Peter - but one can be equally critical of clerical fascism and the BNP. @Swiss Bob - the BNP normally want to push their softer, less offensive, policies and hide their nasty ones - and their nastier pasts/links. It's important that people who think Griffin might have a point (based on the BNP's own publicity materials) are made aware of *all* their policies and actions. I wouldn't care if the BNP's views on things like fiscal policy happened to chime with my own - it's their position on race which is the deal breaker (though I don't like plenty of their other policies!) So I think it *was* right to focus on that issue.

JohnPage

So Nick Griffin has been exposed as nasty and incoherent. Big deal.

As Frank Field has written, in the next 20 years, the population of the UK will rise from 61 million to 70 million – and then go on rising, say government statisticians. The bulk of that growth will be due to immigration, which will have added seven million – seven cities the size of Birmingham – to our population by 2034. In the next 10 years alone the British population will rise by four million.

People already living in Britain have never been consulted about the rate of immigration. Their neighbourhoods change, some primary schools have substantial numbers of children who don't speak English, but the haughty political consensus grandly declines to acknowledge a problem.

There is a big democratic deficit here, just as there is on leaving the EU, just as there is on scepticism about man-made global warming. If you hold these views, you have nowhere to go that is politically effective.

Griffin is a shifty, incoherent racist and Farage is a bully whose ambition is to protect his position and income rather than let his party broaden the political debate, probably because he wouldn't be able to keep power and money in his own hands.

Many hold these perfectly reasonable political views. But if you do, you have nowhere effective to go. The smug political consensus is undented.

Nick

"Anyone with the faintest interest in philology will have spotted that ‘gryphon’, from which his surname presumably derives, is a Greek word for a mythical dragon which featured prominently in Persian folkore. Oh dear. But not to worry, Nick. Let’s call it quits. I’ll go back to Llanelli. You go back to Baghdad."

I think you mean Tehran. Oh dear.

AngloWelshDragon

Strapworld @8:53. Couldn't agree more. This is one of the worst pieces I have ever read on CH - sneering, snide, chatterati BS.
Lloyd needs to go up north or to the midlands and get a different perspective on this "rag bag unity". In fact never mind come up here, come to our bleeding planet!

AngloWelshDragon

Much as I hate to be shallow, a handsome new leader would do wonders for the BNP as it did for those Austrian fascists. Nick Griffin looks like someone sat on his face -and not in good way!

Nicholas

Will J has it in a nutshell. Because there is no reasonable or rational refuge for those concerned by the impact of uncontrolled immigration they turn to the BNP.

The liberal left have been outrageously unfair in their insistent imposition of multi-culturalism and diversity whilst astonishingly irresponsible in failing to address both infrastructure and integration in those places most affected by it. Only recently have they woken up to the problems that have been "invested" as a result of this incompetent malevolence with hasty, puerile and superficial attempts to instill a sense of Britishness.

The eagerness to protect ethnic minorities from racism and discrimination has resulted in some very strange impositions on the majority. Astonishing that Scottish, Welsh and Irish Nationalism is promoted and flourishes in the same political arena that English Nationalism is demonised and denigrated. That is a measure of the establishment's concept of fairness and equality, epitomised by the odious Jack Straw's pronouncement that the English are a people not worth saving.

The programme, Dimbleby and those representing the three main parties were as vile as Griffin. The whole thing was a sham which clearly demonstrates how anyone concerned with the imposed changes to British society, however reasonably articulated, is bullied, shouted down and ultimately overwhelmed by the liberal left consensus.

Does the defence of an ethnic majority against bigotry and discrimination imply racism towards ethnic minorities? Is the defence to be stigmatised and silenced because of that assumption. That is the crux of it.

TomTom

Last night I watched in disbelief as The Establishment set in motion its own destruction. It was a 1641 Moment.

A State-owned broadcaster funded by taxation of the Citizen-Voter hosted an Inquisition worthy of Vyshinsky or Freisler. It placed 3 Establishment politicians facing Dimbleby and one upstart posing as Tribune of the Plebs to his left where his glass left eye would restrict his vision of the audience, and Bonnie Greer as the non-politician was stuck to his left.

The location was West London and the audience handpicked and very different from Northern England. Two BNP MEPs were elected in a band across The North and here was one of them being arraigned before a Southern Star Chamber.

No questions on current events, simply a charge sheet drawn up and delivered. Nothing to assuage the Voters of The North, but to see three politicians - one non-elected - act as if they were deciding whether the Northern Voters were acceptable to them, expense fiddlers and serial fraudsters.

This is a phenomenally dangerous game. The anger in Northern England will not have been assuaged by the performance of QT last night; it will have inflamed very clear tensions across the Northern Belt.

Northern England has not seen benefits of 12 Years of Credit Boom but will suffer from Decades of Retrenchment to pay for bank bailouts and economic collapse. Towqns like Bradford have not seen the investment places like London have gotten - Millennium Dome, Olympics; always a refurbishment programme for Inner London but none for Bradford which is a poor relation to Barnsley or Mansfield; mining areas where money cascaded in from public funds.

In every election - local and Euro - Blair promised to 'learn lessons' and ignored the Voters; they upped the stakes and elected 2 BNP MEPs.....but still no dialogue. Instead the Tribune of The Plebs is vilified and subjected to a 2-minute Hate as was Goldstein in 1984.

It is Orwellian. 'The Party' - that amalgam of Labour/Liberal/Conservative/BBC - with their Defined View and Common Purpose - will not accept Deviationism or Revisionism - from their program. If Voters err they must be told to vote again.

The situation is going to lead to wholesale and most probably violent change. The financial system is floating by mortgaging the whole economy and taxbase - rather as the Rentenmark in post-1925 Weimar tried to stabilise the financial disaster...until the 1929 Crash. The next leg of the downturn will collapse the whole politico-media landscape and parties like the BNP will be as irrelevant as the others.

The BNP is a protest action group which is less a siren call and more a flashing red warning signal. The Diet-Marxism of the political media elite however makes them think in templates and they have lost the ability to think out of the box; they do not understand that when the collapse comes no political grouping will be able to rally support to hold the system together. The BNP is not an answer to the problem, it is simply the safety-valve releasing pressure building in a closed system.

Last night the BBC and Political Elite tried to ram down the safety valve. Pressure is still building.

AngloWelshDragon

JohnPage - I agree with you 100%

General Zod

Given the Vikings began their raids in the 8th Century and the Normans didn't invade until the 11th Century, so much less than 17000 years ago, Griffin would presumably like to deport white people of Norse stock.

The man is a buffoon.

That a portion of the white working classes appears to see the BNP as the only party that speaks to them (even though it speaks incoherently) shows that the major parties do not adequately address the issues that concern these people. That doesn't mean that a party needs to declare that the UK is closed to further immigration, but that it needs to address the fundamental problems of housing, education and the tax and benefits system that make these people feel so insecure that they blame immigrants.

george

I thought the Spectator could do better than this.Next month the Scottish National Party will open the Homecoming ceremonies for all those people of Scottish origin overseas who wish to visit their Homeland.There in lies some recognition of the power and ties of nationhood.Perhaps this is difficult to understand.but maybe some of BNP`s voters feel the same way.It is just plain silly to ignore the concerns of indviduals who feel that they have and are given no choice as to who comes into this country.If the BNP articulate genuine concerns and no one listens.then they will gain votes.

Dorothy Wilson

I have to confess that I did not watch QT. There was a short "preview" on the news showing Straw. He came over - as he always does - as an obnoxious prig and that was a complete turn-off.

However,despite all the hot air surrounding this subject, it seems the chattering classes are totally incapable of grasping the crux of the matter. It is that the BNP is not the problem, it is a symptom of the problem.

Unless and until one of the main political parties get to grip with the causes of the problem, which centre around uncontrolled immigration, we are in for a bumpy ride. And probably a great deal of unpleasantness.

Peter From Maidstone

I feel insecure. I am not living up North. I have grown up in a family which always fostered children from a variety of ethnic backgrounds, and worship in a Church whose leadership is African. I am not a racist.

Rather I am someone who realises that not only does the benefit culture mean that we are burdened with millions of people who don't think they need to work, and who expect immigrants to do the jobs they should be doing, but also that the resources of the Middle Class are not substantial enough to continue to support the growth in infrastructure needed to support uncontrolled immigration.

None of the parties are dealing with either of these issues. And to even raise them is to make oneself liable to being accused of racism.

The genetic make up of the majority of British people is eseentially that of the ancient British people who have indeed always lived here. The Vikings and Normans are only a thin genetic veneer. My family has its roots in Cambridgeshire and was probably there long before the Conquest working on the land. There is nothing wrong with an attachment to a place and a culture. Who, other than the BNP, is even suggesting that we should be proud to be English and should be proud of our English culture?

Griffin may be a buffoon, General Zod, but your apparent support for continuing immigration, while tinkering with the benefits system is not the answer. I have no problem with my children being educated in a school with a variety of ethnicities represented, but when an English child becomes a minority in an English school then something has gone wrong and tinkering won't do.

Kit

Did I watch Jack Straw, just on a whim, exempt Nick Griffin from the EU Extradition Treaty on a TV show? We really are turning into a banana republic.

CS

A few too many Coffee Housers are using the immigration debate as a fig leaf for their true views. If you are genuinely concerned about the numbers living in this country and predicted to be living in this country, then race doesn't come into it. After all, the greatest recent influx has been of white Eastern Europeans.

The very ethos of the BNP is based on hating people because of the colour of their skin. So please don't pretend to be shocked by the bullying of a poor man who was bravely trying to address immigration issues.

Welsh Drinker

Just had a run through most of the political blogs including the BBC: http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=7145&edition=1&ttl=20091023113639

and in the main the posters are in Griffin’s corner.

Carl Barron

The BNP should have every reason to believe their support will grow especially after the disgusting attack on Mr Griffin by the manner of which BBC Question Times was conducted.

Jack Straw tries to commander the show by constant dribble, only to have the fact disclosed that his father spent the last war in jail for being a conscious objector (otherwise known as cowards) this will not go down well with the general public in a time of War.

Jackboot Straw as he has been rightly nicknamed, has attacked the communities of the UK with constant ‘Nazi Type Laws’ of gross over surveillance of the British Public. The Labour Party is the true Nazi Party of the UK.

It was Jack Straw’s attack on the communities of the UK which caused agpcuk to be formed.

Signed Carl Barron Chairman of agpcuk

Vulture

@ Moi General,
Although in an earlier post you told us that you originally came from oop north, the real worry that is delivering shedloads of support to the BNP in your native auld sod appears to have escaped your notice.

So let me spell it out. It is not any old immigrants who are being blamed for shortage of jobs and housing. It is Islamic immigrants. And understandably so. Why ? Because history does not record a single instance where in the long term Islamic culture co-exists peacably with non-Islamic ones.

Either the 'dhimmis' are absorbed and forcibly converted to Islam; or Islam is turned back by naked force (battle of Tours, siege of Vienna, re-conquest of Spain
etc). Islam is inherently intolerant, aggressive, expansionist and incompatible with liberal democracy. Either Europe will eventually expel its Islamic colonisers in a welter of blood or it will become an Islamic slave state in which Christianity and Democracy are distant memories. I'm afraid its as scary as that, moi General.

Alex Creel

Well done Lloyd, regardless of content that's a lovely piece of writing - I'll be sending it to my mum! As for Nick, its a pity Dimblebey didn't hold back the baying crowd on the poduim a little more. No one on the panel could do him more damage than himself - a classic case of foot and mouth disease. If the aim was to appear moderate and let he frothing panelists appear extreme he failed miserably! One thing this demonstrates is that whilst you can take drugs, abuse alcohol, commit petty crimes and still stand for parliament its really difficult to take back the idiotic things you said when your audience never looked like mobilising into a movement.

McKenzie

Considering a switch to the National Front, see if we can get them on QT next year. Last night was too lame for me.

jack straws dad

If you looked carefully at QT last night all you would have seen was Griffin being howled at by a lot of black folk and "British Indians" (compare that with the term "Italian American, and think about it) and the usual London-not-really-English-types.

The Elite think they've won a battle, and it proves that they are useless at managing the problems that this country has today. We don't need the BNP, but we don't need our current political elite either.

By the way, I only read the first few lines of this piece before deciding it was he usual guff and gave up on it.

General Zod

The vast majority of Muslims in this country are not militant. I realise that one of the more excitable types here cited earlier in the week a poll that showed 10% had anti-Western, militant-sympathising attitudes, but that doesn't mean 10% will become suicide bombers.

There are radical Imams, most of whom come from the lawless parts of Pakistan where the Taliban hold sway, but like everybody else, once Muslims feel they have a stake in society, they tend to settle down and invest further in society.

I do not share your pessimism. There are severe problems that need to be addressed, but fundamentally most people want to live peacefully with the rest of society. The average Muslim on the street does not have any serious belief in a Caliphate stretching across the globe and does not want this country to be goverend by Sharia law.

Those who claim otherwise remind me of the type of person who perpetuated the myth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Frank P

Ah well, it all seems to have provoked some excellent commentary. So far I rate the contributions by Micholas (10.35am); Tom Tom (10.38am) and Vulture (11.45am) as a dead heat of three on my short list. Pretty scary stuff for the ruling administration; but then, they should be used to it by now as their chickens have been coming home to roost for some time now.

jack straws dad

Kit - we do live in a bannana republic already. Not many people notice. Certainly not the hacks in our media.

JONNY

Thanks Auntie Beeb.
Now I really feel I Know Nick Griff as a sweaty, ape-guffawing, ever-so-slightly flatulent human being.
But where's his Shadow Cabinet?
His Goering? His Goebbels? His Himmler? His Streicher? The Pretorian Guard who must surely stand behind him with their jackboots and whips when he holds his rallies.
I want to take a butchers at the whole bloody team before I can even remotely think of voting for him.
And I want to see them fully kitted up at that. Knuckle-dusters and all.
Surely the BNP is more than a One Man Band.

Frank P

Btw who forced L Evans to submit himself to the commentariat? That was a good move Ed. No more unjustified protection of pontification from the Welsh ivory Tower?

Alex Creel

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm

Aw diddums!

Ray Burston

Meanwhile - whilst everyone else was falling over themselves highlighting Nick Griffin's ability to believe one thing whilst publicly espousing another - only briefly was Chris Huhne picked up for having us believe that, had his party been in charge, Britain would never have allowed in half-a-million East Europeans. This from a man whose party is shamelessly committed to an EU treaty that will strip away our last remaining rights to decide for ourselves who we allow to enter our country!

Fearless Frank

The leader of the great unwashed has entered the liberal lion's den and they gave him a bit of a mauling.
So doubtless the millions who voted BNP will now slink away, tails between their legs, and go back to voting labour next time.

Andre

I think the consensus emerging this morning is that those of us concerned about mass immigration, welfare bills,
government borrowing, political correctness and Afghanistan have no sane voice. We see Islamic militants shouting for death and destruction on our streets with impunity whilst a discredited police force take hoteliers to court for testifying to the christian faith. Our troops are ill equipped, our schools teach idiotic classes on ethics and citizenship, our hospitals are now run by bureaucrats who deny us adequate medical treatment and we have a media completely at odds with what I suspect the majority of British people actually think and feel. I want a party which is christian, democratic, tolerant of others but intolerant of violence and hatred, financially literate and pro-military. Griffin cannot fill this vacuum but he has shaded in the edges of the yawning gap in British politics more clearly.

Verity

Will J: "since no nation has ever been racially pure, least of all ours."

What kind of a rat's arse, phony statement is that? Before the W Indians came in (was it the Fifties?) Britain was near enough 100% Caucasian. "Least of all ours?" Are you daft, man?

What are all you leftoid "inclusive" fantasists sniffing?

Norman Dee

The vast majority of Catholics in N.I. were not militant, the vast majority of Basques are not militant, the bulk of the Tamils are not militant, etc etc. It's not "the vast majority" we have to fear its the minority who will drag in the rest of the population by using doctrinal blackmail and pressure. Wake up for goodness sake.

Verity

"Farage is a bully whose ambition is to protect his position and income". John Page, Nigel Farage is a very intelligent, outstandingly articulate individual who feels strongly about the powers of our nation to continue as a nation being being leached out of these islands. He is an articulate individual who has the rare ability to give his entire concentration to the person he is talking to.

Your assessment of his character is monkey pee.

denis cooper

Will J @ 8:58 am -

You pose some intelligent and pretty fundamental questions; but that's not the purpose of this article, or of the so-called "debate" about the BNP in general.

Not at all; in fact the real purpose is to prevent any intelligent, fundamental debate through constant personal attacks and systematic character assassination.

And I've no doubt that there are some who would be willing to move onto physical assassination if that seemed necessary, so Griffin is merely taking a sensible precaution by surrounding himself with those heavies.

There were a few moments during last night's travesty when it seemed that some kind of rational debate might be about to break out, but the chairman always made sure that it was nipped in the bud.

Oh, by the way, I think I've spotted a typo in the second sentence of this article - surely "Police cordons being smashed by anti-fascists" should read "... smashed by fascists"?

Fascists may not always wear brown paramilitary uniforms or black shirts when they seek to suppress free speech by intimidation and violence, but that doesn't stop them being fascists.

biggestaspidistra

"a marvellously British occasion"

was there ever so much ink spilled at the Spectator writing propaganda and nonsense as we have seen in in the last week. What fools you must think we are.

Vulture

@General.
Actually, the opinion poll figures for British Muslim attitudes are more scary than the 10% you cite. (Though even 10% of two million Muslims means there are 200,000 swivel eyed fanatics on our streets). Asked abt attitudes to Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda; 9/11; Sharia Law and Britain becoming an Islamic state, more than 25% expressed approval of these things. A very worryingly high figure expressed anti-Semitic attitudes, so if you are looking for the modern proponents of the Elders of Zion myth, look no further than our beardie friends. It is interesting too that the only place in the world where the Protocols are openly for sale is the Muslim world.

I admire your Panglossian optimism, General, but as a historian, I take a longer view. And history tells us that when it comes to Islam, the longer view is very dark.

What are the images that the word sums up?
Suicide bombs; videos of beheadings; women walking around with only their eyes visible; the death sentence for apostates and homosexuals (the latter At least one thing they have in common with old Nick etc.)

Face facts General: Islam and the rest of the human race don't fit.

MartSharm

More shocking nonsense from the Spectator. My suscription is hanging by a thread. The show was completely engineered to have a go at one panellist, something that has never happened in all my years of watching it. Decency dictates that every panellist is entitled to equally fair treatment, not to be constantly harangued by a non-representative metropolitan audience, biased chair, and smugly holier-than-thou panellists.

Griffin did stumble and made little coherent argument, but I suspect the underdog effect will benefit him more than any of the other panellists. And in the process, the neutrality of Question Time has been seriously called into question.

The only way to seriously challenge the BNP is to accept their democratic legitimacy, identify the policy ideas that resonate with voters (I'm sure it's not their racist background that is their prime appeal) and make sure that the main parties address the issues that the BNP are being supported for. It's simple - millions of people feel their country is changing - in terms of its population demographic and ruling class - and haven't been consulted about it. They want a voice - and difficult though it might be to swallow - the BNP are providing that voice. Do not underestimate them.

The above sneery post is a disgrace. Have you guys lost your marbles? Stick up for democracy and independence of thought, rather than joining the shrill knee-jerk condemnation of someone you simply don't agree with. I can't stand plenty of Labour ministers, but I don't assault policemen in the process of making my feelings known.

Get a grip guys.

By the right, quick ....

Last nights star chamber proved nothing. It merely demonstrated the futility of demonising Griffin whilst continuing to deny the existence of the two problems on which he bases his rise in the polls. The problems of mass immigration and the lack of integration into British society are real and felt by a huge swathe of the population. Nick Griffin is not even a passable orator, nor is he a brilliant political operator, but still he has managed to use these very real problems to ride slowly up the polls. The danger is that somewhere in this country there exists an individual with the intellect to observe and to manipulate the opportunity these problems offer. This individual has the oratorical skills to rouse the rabble and ride on it's shoulders to the very top of the heap. He or she will achieve their goal in only a few short years, much as others have done in recent history.

It is a race against time, will the rabble rouser emerge before the emergence of a politician of whatever colour, willing to address and resolve these issues? Based on last night's showing and the run up to it there is currently no one able to stand in the way of the rabble rouser. Lets hope he or she emerges soon because the clock is ticking and that politically adept intellect is already thinking.

JONNY

'Your assessment of his character(Farage) is monkey pee.'

From the La

JohnAnt

"as if he was desperate to mount her "
Lloyd, please: not before the watershed.

JONNY

'monkey pee... rat's arse.'

Oh dearey me.
I think it may be time you took a nice long deep breath.
I know your better side really didn't mean to descend into this. Just the impulse of the moment.
Not the Verity we all enjoy and respect.

Alex Creel

Verity - True colours (excuse the pun) from you..whoop de doo I'm so lucky to be a caucasian, I guess that means I'm safe when your revolution kicks off. Of course your revolution will never come as your outdated, blinkered rants have no place in a civilised Britain. Begone!

JONNY

Sorry for my 2.10 botchup.
Comes of trying to uncork a bottle of Sauvignon BLanc and typing at the same time.
One of the drawbacks of the Speccie going 'automatic' I suppose.

Will J

Verity: Caucasian is not a racial group, except in a very loose sense, since it groups together people of diverse ethnicities on the basis of broadly similar skin colour. For as long as England and then Britain have been kingdoms they have have been a mixture of different ethnic groups, gradually melting together. To label this mixture caucasian and define it as a distinct race from that of people with skin colour further down the shading spectrum is arbitrary. After all, why only go as dark as Roman? Our particular melting pot may have produced a distinctive ethnic group at certain times, but a melting pot it remains.

It is surely primarily a question of rate of change in order to retain cultural continuity and maintain national identity. In a nutshell, it is about our capacity for cultural assimilation. But I suspect that is a naughty word.

Verity

Alex Creel, who elected you to determine who should be in the country?

Your inexplicable run at thought fascism - ordering people whose views you don't agree with out of the country, sits uncomfortably with your posturing as a mahatamaesque, inclusive spirit.

Two-faced. Like all socialists. Socialism is a disease of the soul.

Noa Zrk

Verity; nice!

Beer Moth

"No one is quite sure how Nazi bogeyman Nick Griffin was smuggled into the Shepherds Bush studios for the recording of Question Time."

That an elected politician is expected to be smuggled in to the premises of the state broadcaster; and that this is a matter for hilarity: how has this come to pass?

This piece Mr Evans, is very shoddy. You are not doing your job properly and you should leave any future space clear for someone who can do it effectively. If I were your editor, you would not be asked to provide any more copy.

Ploppy

I regularly read this blog, but have never registered my own comments.

However, I felt compelled to make comment after reading the nauseating drivel posted by Mr Evans.

I dont agree with Nick Griffin and his parties principles, but whatever happened to democracy and free speech in this country.

Im sick to the back teeth of the 'liberal elite', and a minority of so called anti-fascist scumbags ramming their views down the majorities throats.

Our once proud nation is on its arse and there is no voice for a large part of the population,hence Mr Griffin and his like filling the vaccum.

Hang your head in shame Mr Evans if this is the best you can do, perhaps you would be more suited writing for the Beano.

TGF UKIP

I've wondered who and what Lloyd Evans is and now I well and truly know; an absolutely quintessential villager.

Come on Fraser you can give us better than this silly bugger.

Talby

And there was me thinking of getting a Spectator subscription. Looks like it has finally made the leap to being merely a Tory magazine. Disenfranchised at the ballot box and now the newsstand. I'd never vote for a bunch of thickie socialist racists (ie. the BNP and the Labour Party) and it is clear that my desire for a country that retains its culture and sovereignty will not be aspired to by any political party.

Wilhelm

Will J, The Quote of the century

'' Caucasion is not a race ''

Thats a bit Irish, more upside down logic and errorneous piffle.

If Europeans are not caucasions, what are we then, penguins ?

Verity

Will J - incorrect. There are five races only, and dozens of subsections of each race, as in Anglos, Saxons, Celts, the Germanic tribes the Scandinavians, the French, the Spanish, etc., as sub sections of Caucasian.

I realise that lefty socialist thought control academics have tried to manipulate this into a multiculti world where no one really is anything.

Semite also includes, the Arabs, by the way. Mongolian includes all the peoples of Asia, not just Chinese. I think Native Americans also come under Mongol. That would account for the Mayans and the Aztecs being so clever.

Aryan includes the Caucasians and also most Pakistanis and Indians.

I'm sure in today's world, there's also a race of fluffy bunnies who want to teach the world to sing in perfect harmonee ... The left is a very destructive belief system.

The One Worlders manipulate science to suit their message, qv man-made global warming/climate change/whatever.

TGF UKIP

Brilliant post TomTom - thanks!

amanda

Will J: Thanks for that very thoughtful post. The points you raise, which any society including a free one must and does in fact answer somehow (even if the answer is not out in the open) could never be raised by my schoolteacher husband in his world civilizations class (or any other class, for that matter). He'd be sacked.

Other posters also make very good points -- rather better reading than the main article! Re: the comments of Amadeus P. That's your multiculti mind-mash right there: it's one rule for 'us' (we must always try to conform to what others want, even to the extent that we cease to be 'us') and another rule for 'them' (who are never required to conform, and are allowed to complain loudly about it if they do). A recipe for the demise of freedom a.k.a. cultural suicide.