For want of leadership and a clear aim

Roger Daley

Bring our brave men home now !
I support them 100% in what they are trying to achieve under orders from a quisling government that I wouldn't spit on.

It's a seacole conspiracy

Why should the electorate trust a Government which is afraid of the BNP?

Noa Zrk

"Withdrawal should not commence until political stability, durable enough to keep al Qaeda out of Afghanistan, is secured".
Al Qaeda's absence or presence is irrelevent. They are already established elsewhere and international in outlook and location.
"The contrast between the diverse Taliban's unified aim and the supposedly unified Nato's disorder must be reversed".
True and laudable but unachievable. The main brunt of this fight has been carried by the US, British and Canadian armed forces. The UK Governments greatest fear, exposing the hollowness of all present arguments for involvement and becoming an increasing possibility, must be a US led withdrawal.
"Certain leadership, clear goals and engagement with the non-jihadist elements of the Taliban will enable military and civilian authorities to impose order"
In the real world goals and objectives are established by real leaders before going to war.
Whilst senior British military figures optimistically predict a continuing military requirement for between 20 and 40 years, with 5 years to establish civil order and stability, It will be extremely difficult to "...convince the British public that this is a war worth fighting..". The truth is that withdrawal with be an admission of incompetent failure by an intellectually and morally bankrupt and treasonous government in a the key area of managing our foreign interests. There is blood on the hands of more than just Tony Blair as a result of this affair. The entire government bears a direct personal responsibility for every pointless British serviceman's death.

Noa Zrk

David blackburn.
On a different note your Blog Addiction Disorder is duly noted and appreciated by your fellow junkies.
Thank you for facilitating these out of working time directive debates and diatribes.

you there

jeremy corybn is a fool. I would not trust him to set light to a cnd placard and then receive a request from him to put it out with my own urine. What I mean to say is that piss him on fire no way. He is in the same camp as the ex livingstone mayor (that must grate, ex mayor) who let ira terrorists into Parliament and tried to defend them.

The men and women in afghanistan are heroes and should be treated as such.

Austin Barry

There is no point to our misadventure in Afghanistan. The real battlefield is in Pakistan, but the West's only mission there should be to disable Pakistan's nuclear weapons and get out. The corrupt, misogynistic Dystopia of Afghanistan is not worth the death or injury of a single squaddie.

Short the UK

What a fricking disaster. Our political elite screwed up our economy and sent "our boys" into two wars that should never have been. Tally-ho.

Ever heard that song Banana Republic by the Boomtown Rats? Cheers guys!

strapworld

So, Mr Blackburn "Withdrawal should not commence until political stability, durable enough to keep al Qaeda out of Afghanistan, is secured."

That means 'carry on regardless'

I support totally our troops. Their courage and commitment cannot be denied. BUT I do believe that Brown, following Blair, with that coward Straw putting his oar in! Now with Cameron and Hague showing their macho nature by agreeing with sending other people's sons and daughters to Afghanistan are just, frankly, ignoring the British people.

As with Immigration, Housing, Jobs and this it does not matter what the people say or think the politicians know far batter than us.

Sounds like grounds for mass disobedience sometime soon?

Come back Robert Kilroy Silk England and the English need you to take over the BNP and give that party some articulation and skill at the top!

David Ossitt

"Withdrawal should not commence until political stability"

They have never had it; do not want it, do not deserve it, and it is not our problem.

Bring the lads and lasses home and let them hunt out the terrorists in the UK.

Cogito Ergosum

Gordon Brown has as much chance of "winning" Afghanistan as Neville Chamberlain had of defeating Hitler.

LilyS

David Blackburn: you write that there needs to be "engagement with the non-jihadist elements of the Taliban".

But on 30th August you wrote a post headlined "Negotiating with the Taliban is a fantasy":

http://tinyurl.com/yjjmztc

Why should we take you seriously?

Swiss Bob

Of course we could win, but with Brown and Obama?

The General staff don't seem up to much either, and I'm not convinced by the field commanders.

But criticise the 'troops', no.

Swiss Bob

A quick PS. There's a documentary on NI running at the moment, in those days we were scum, but we died in greater numbers than all the wars since.

TrevorsDen

Noa Jerk? Go away.

This is a blog, bee el oh gee

its not yours its theirs. they can post when and what they like.

Blair made a mess of justifying the invasion and the govt and generals made a mess of pacifying Basra.

But thanks to America it was a success. The invasion of Iraq removed a despot and exposed Libya's A-bomb programme and changed the future course of events in the middle east - totally taking the initiative from the fanatics and militants. It continues in Afghanistan.

Bush and Cheney deserve plaudits - but of course they will not get them.

Dr Iago

As posted elsewhere I feel that this war is unwinnable unless the rules change and we allow the Afghans to sell their most profitable crop on the open market. On being in Afghanistan for 20-30 years, can somebody with a better knowledge of military history than me point to a successful strategy being pursued over a similar time frame?

Noa Zrk

TreversDen:

You have the right to express your opinion, however bizarre, misconceived or inaccurate they may be and I will support that right. So what gives you the right to try and deprive me of that right in return?
Erstwhile collateral benefits from a war initiated by lies and deceit cannot be used to justify it. Do you want to thank Hitler for causing WWII because as a by product the jet engine arrived 10 years early?
Perhaps you would care to tell us what benefits the Bliar colonial wars have provided for the UK?
Or perhaps you might care to audition for QTs audience, seems about your level of debate...

Noa Zrk

Dr Iago:

Northern Ireland did spring to mind, then the Basque region, Latvia, Estonia, Hungary,the pacification of the American indians, the Australian aborigines...I could go on, but only genocide really seems successful. Henry Allingham said that talk was always preferable to war and he should know, but won't change a thing.

TGF UKIP

This may be devastatingly worrying news for TrevorsDen, but I completely agree with him.
Additionally, as I have previously posted, decades hence George W will be lionized just as Harry Truman is today.

So far as Afghanistan is concerned, it is a quagmire and it is also, as Fraser Nelson wrote for his NoW column, a test of the resolve of the British, the Americans and the West. If we haven't the bottle we may as well start learning the koran tonight.

What is truly depressing is just how european some usually respected Coffee Housers seem to be.

Frank P

Dr Iago:

I thought Dr's Petro and Swann were dead. Have they been reincarnated in Dr Iago?

At the moment the American Federal Agencies are being overwhelmed by the Mexican Familia Drug Cartel, because most LE resources have been diverted to 'terrorism' (Al Q).

Three hundred Mexicans were arrested yesterday, mostly illegal immigrants:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-strikes-at-mexican-drug-cartel-1808411.html

The MFDC have probably been responsible for as many deaths on American soil as every Al Q operation combined. Don't you understand that flooding the Western World with illegal opiates, hallucinogens and other dangerous drugs is part of the conspiracy of a large number of anti-western entities, many based in Afghanistan, to provide funds for terrorist military operations, undermine our culture, military and our moral resolve and to implement the jihad. A ploy also used by the sino-soviet alliance throughout the cold ward (which is still being used by the neo-Marxists). Your answer, and there are many idiots like you, is to legalize the undermining of our civilization and culture by encouraging the trade and taxing it. Why not legalize AQ, lay down in your narcotic nirvana and let them piss all over us? That would be a similar 'solution' would it not? Go overdose, you moron! Please!

Frank P

Trevor's D

I think Noah's Ark was acknowledging the fact that David Blackburn works long hours to facilitate the commentariat on this 'bee ell ohh gee'. I took it to be a vote of thanks, which I second. What's your beef?

Noa Zrk

Frank P @ 1.36am.
That is so. This winter time is not good... brrr! and Goodnight!

Any Colour but Brown

"Short the UK
What a fricking disaster. Our political elite screwed up our economy and sent "our boys" into two wars that should never have been. Tally-ho.

Ever heard that song Banana Republic by the Boomtown Rats? Cheers guys!"

Sadly, in the current circumstances, being raised to the status of Banana Republic would be something to be welcomed.

Peter

The government has never loudly endorsed the reason we are there. Brown has about as much interest in and knowledge of Afghanistan as my cat.

You can bet your life the polls would be different if Al Qaeda bombed the UK tomorrow!

Rhoda Klapp

The writing on the wall is that the public are turning against this war. Whether one agrees with it or not, that means the war is in fact unsustainable in the medium term. What are the chances of changing the public's minds? Well, a compelling reason to be there might help. But nobody has been very successful in disseminating one.

Methinks the debate now is only about how long we will stay before we pull out. Unless we actually care enough to put the country on a serious war footing and put the resources in which we would need, and also adopt a set of rules of engagement which might allow us to win, we might as well take the hit and pull out now.

TrevorsDen

I took Noa's comments to be condescending (I still do) and of course his reply is total goble de gook. Saddam started the gulf war by invading Kuwait and componded that by various infractions of the cease fire. Removing him has changed the whole dynamic of the middle east and that along with Afghanistan has given terrorism only one purpose - survival.

These days such things go by the name of geo-politics and suggesting that the removal of Saddam and the taliban is a 'good thing' has nothing to do with reminicing over the technical advances brought on by WW2.

I am indeed left bereft by UKIPs vote of confidence ... my praise does not fall upon Blair (I care little for blair orr his motives), but on Bush whose decision to proceed with the surge may well have changed the history of the 21st Century. Sadly our future now rests in the uncertain hands of Obama. The rightness of Bush's stance is now being shown by the contempt with which Iran is treating Obama.

But to support the Afghan conflict does not meant that I support mistakes in its presecution, but I do know its likely that there will be mistakes - learning from them and investing in those lessons is what counts. This govt have not been honest with the public from day one. If that changes the public perception will change.

Noa Zrk

TrevorsDen @ 12:38pm

The blog and my post were specific to Afghanistan> But, though you did not make yourself clear I recognise the roots of the present conflict lie in the first Gulf War. Indeed I was in Riyadh throughout it and had the opportunity to directly experience and observe some of its military and social events and consequences.
The West managed the geo-political aspects of that conflict superbly: refuting and defusing Saddam's gambits of the Arab, muslim and anti-Israeli gambits to liberate Kuwait whilst maintaining him in power and using him as a counter to inimical forces in Syria and Iran.
In retrospect the US reaction to the murderous outrage of 9/11 may be seen as intemperate and sub-optimal. In adopting a convetional military solution to an asymetrical threat it promoted a minority terrorist cell to the mainstream of the Islamic terrorist movement and provided them with a credibility and legitimacy in the Islamic world which they did not deserve. As terrorists they were permitted to train in an Afghan warlords fiefdom, destroyed afterwards by special forces. We should have left Afghanistan after those highly successful operations; maintaining srategic control of our interests through maintainig the balance of power between warlords. By its nature terror flows like water, as Mao Tse Tung said. Terrorist training camps establish themselves where they can, Libya, Somalia or Afghanistan. They will not however be defeated by permanent territorial presence and occupation, though they can and should be located and destroyed when found.
Nation building was, unlike Iraq, never an option. Even there it was the result of necessity and not by choice.
The invasion and subsequent partition of Iraq can likewise be seen as a political disaster, based furthermore on a lie by a government to its people and removing a bulwark against Iranian ambitions. It fuelled the mass growth of international Islamic terrorism as a consequence of perceived Western crusaderism. The surge was nothing more than a short term damage limitation exercise for US home consumption. However the Iraqi government does seem to be prospering and we must encourage it to do so.
Afghanistan is in reality a pawn on the board, in danger of being converted by our incompetent play into a wiining piece.

I regret if you find this viewpoint and its rationale condescending; fact based discussion is of course preferable to unexplained abuse.

TrevorsDen

noa, I find your remarks about the existence of the post condecending.

However when you say
"The West managed the geo-political aspects of that conflict superbly: refuting and defusing Saddam's gambits of the Arab, muslim and anti-Israeli gambits to liberate Kuwait whilst maintaining him in power and using him as a counter to inimical forces in Syria and Iran." I realise you are not living in the real world. Hurd for instance fully expected Saddam to be toppled.
How an Iraq with a UN policed no fly zone over virtually its entire land area could act as a counter to anybody is a mystery to me.

And when you say the US reaction to 911 was 'intemperate' and 'sub-optimal' I know that the world you are in fact living in is a figment of your imagination.

We did leave Afghanistan alone and it succumbed again to the Taliban and others who also now infiltrate Pakistan.
That would be nuclear Pakistan. A failed state with access to nuclear (clean dirty or otherwise) Pakistan technology is not in my world a happy outcome.

Dennis Churchill

The BNP have a story on their Website that Islamist Terrorists convicted of plotting to kidnap a British soldier behead him and put his head on a stake so it could be shown on the Web have been freed after 22 months.
And the media classes can’t understand why support for the party is growing? Or why support for the “War on Terror” is falling?
The threat to us is here, in our own country. If we don’t deal with it ruthlessly British troops will be patrolling British cities a generation from now.

Noa Zrk

TrevorsDen:

I still have no idea what you find condescending but, as with your other views, if there is any basis to your opinions is entirely undermined by your supercilious manner.
But I don't accept your arguments. The strategic intention in GW I was to leave Iraq intact. The no fly-zone was never intended as more than a stop gap.

How does the conduct of an essentially defensive war against tribal guerrillas prevent Pakistan's nuclear weapons falling into the hands of extremists?

Your previous solution of a pre-emptive armed strike against a key ally is radical and as a unilateral act of war would surpass Hitlers invasion of Poland.

Who would you see carrying this out?

Noa Zrk

TrevorsDen

Fraser Nelson
October 19th, 2009 7:22am Report this comment

TGF, I do love it when you moan about gaps in our Sunday coverage. FYI we all do it for love on the sabbath - none of us is paid to work weekends. Poor David Blackburn is putting up all these posts from home (Pete claimed his connection was down - I'll have to remember that one). This weekend, I was in Sweden enjoying a beautiful autumn day with my family. We Coffee House baristas snatch a few moments by a computer for reasons that my wife calls "blog addiction disorder" - an ailment that is quickly remedied by divorce threats. So please do cut your slaves some slack.

Fraser Nelson "Welcome to London".

Condescending? Your apology is in order.