The Tories' new line on Europe

Verity

Sorry, James, but the Heir to Blair is a bs artist, exactly like his spiritual forebear, Blair.

Cameron is completely bought into the EUSSR projekt and has his upholstery in Brussels ordered.

Dennis Churchill

The Think Tanks should also start Cost-Benefit analyses to alter the public’s misconceptions about the “Trade” benefits and “Influence” membership gives us.
Better still a Royal Commission.

michael m

In other words the Harold Wilson solution in 1974

TrevorsDen

Evidence Verity - where is the evidence. You have none.

All you vent is your own prejudice and all your proposed actions would simply give power to real Europhiles.

You are either insane or a fifth columnist.

DavidDP

"Tim Montgomerie has the scoop that the Tories will not hold a referendum on Lisbon if it has been ratified by the next general election. "

How is this a scoop? The Tories have said on numerous occasions that the referendum would only take place absent ratification.

In2minds

Did David Cameron promise us a vote on Lisbon? If the answer to that is yes then he has broken a promise. The comment, “would only have had moral force” is akin to saying it was only a little promise. So is Cameron Heir to Bliar?

strapworld

Trevors Den, that is desperate stupid stuff. A fifth columnist indeed!

Cant people have an opposite view to yours without you insulting them. Frankly I am sick of your childish, moronic attacks on people.

Cameron is a weak man. I have said that a great many times. He has said nothing to inspire me whatsoever. This, if it does come about, is yet another political party turning itself against the people. What party will give us a say on the EU?

I asked you many weeks ago to tell me one thing that will convince me that Cameron is a Tory! You have failed to deliver.

Your constant insults are the tactics of the left. Perhaps you are left wing and why you love Cameron so much.

Cameron has ignored public opinion on the EU, on mass immigration,on his shadow cabinet and their abuse of expenses,on Afghanistan and the abuse of our troops by the MOD! Do YOU know what he will do, apart from ensuring our troops continue to be horribly maimed, killed or mentally scarred! Does he have any plans to end all the quango's? He is very quiet on that. I bet he will keep them so he can reward the Trevors Den's of this world!

Cameron is a weak man who will soon learn that people want truth from their politicians not empty promises and gestures.

If he is elected, we will be swopping one weak man for another. the result will be a disaster for this Country.

I will not hold my breath waiting for you to apologise to Verity. It takes a person of some character to apologise.

Beer Moth

"A vote on Lisbon once it had been ratified would only have had moral force so the Tory policy shift is not a betrayal of Euro-scepticism. However, the party will seek a ‘manifesto mandate’ to begin negotiations to repatriate powers."

See that's how bad it is. We the electorate have not voted to give powers away, and yet our government must gear up to negotiate them back?

Job's well and truly knackered

Verity's Garden

Trevor's Den, to describe me as a fifth columnist is highly insulting because it puts me in the same company as Jack Straw, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Jacqui Smith, Harriet Harman, Yvette Cooper, Ed Balls and similar pigswill. The Government is the Fifth Column, Mr Den.

2trueblue

Did we not hear this from Cameron last week? Get a grip. Not a scoop by my standards.
We have had 12yrs of a government who promised a vote and then denied it to us on the treaty/constitution. Then the generous Bliar gave back our rebate, and left it in euros, when the euro was stong. Really well thought out stuff. Over 12yrs.they passed legisltion that a first year law student sould have been ashamed of. All this was achieved by a vacuous government who had a great majority, so no pressure on getting things through parliment. You would have thought that they could apply their strenghts to putting the UK first? No, they were too busy lining their own pockets.

Now we want to whip the conservatives before they get on the sterting blocks. I do not agee with all Cameron says, but feel more comfortable looking to the future with a conservative government so am of the persuasion that we remember whose side we are on.
Not sure we need any more think tanks, the Germans seem ahead of the curve. Why not look at their direstion?

thedarknight

This is exactly the right move from Cameron. There is no need for a referendum with all the uncertainty it may bring. The Conservatives will be elected as a sceptic party and will get some powers back. That will a) put an end to the idea that euro-integration is an inevitable, unstoppable policy, and b) set a precedent for future power grabs. Meanwhile, a law cna be passed requiring any further transfer of powers to have to go through a referendum. This is the beginning of the end game - as long as what Hague and Cameron get is substantial,ie an end to the social chapter, an end to the EAWs,an end to the euro-defence and foreign policy.

Fergus Pickering

Don't be silly. Of course he hasn't broken a promise. The vote was to PREVENT ratification. That was its purpose. What is its purpose now? Do you suppose the Europeans will all fall down like the paynim before the dead body of the Cid? For God's sake have some bloody sense. I thought we were against 'gesture politics'. I despair of you lot sometimes. You're like the bloody Labour left, uselss dead wood. Just shut up and let the REAL men get on with it. Oh, and the real women too. Heavens to Murgatroyd. Jesus wept. What an absolute shower.

Frank P

James F

"The Tories will need expert advice during this process, so the more legal and policy minds working on it now the better."

Isn't Cameron the Prime-Minister-in-waiting with a Shadow Cabinet? You seem to be suggesting that between the whole bevy of these fresh faced bunch of Bullingdon boys, there is no one with enough expertise or legal knowledge to formulate any viable policies for government of this county, without resorting to advice from non-elected shysters and wonks.

Many of us had already deduced that, given the absence of any sign of intent from any of the Tory front line, but it is nice to get it confirmed by someone from 'inside the loop'. WTF should we vote for Cameron and get, apparently, a 'think tank' and hired-in 'legal minds' and 'policy minds'. What are the Cameroons going to do then, apart from poncing around in Savile Row whistles smiling condescendingly upon the plebs?

Listen cocker. We have just put up with 12 years of mainly unknown arseholes pulling the strings of Marxist shills in No.10 and environs; bureaucratic unelected aliens working the levers of real power from enclaves in Bruxelles and a slimy reptilian unelected "First Secretary of State, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, President of the Board of Trade and Lord President of the Council" advising an unelected usurper of a 'Prime Minister' (and 'Saviour of the World's Economy) while appointing himself to the Upper House as Lord Mangledbum of Primrose Hill, without any reference whatsoever to the poor bloody electorate of this country. It seems the only alternative is more of the same. Fuck that!

I now think I understand why Mr Nelson chose you as his replacement, James.

J H Holloway

A re-negotiation of our 'relationship' with Europe is far, far more useful than trying to re-run the Lisbon Treaty.

I'd have thought that was obvious. Dave hates Europe because he had a front line seat when the ERM nonsense smashed the Tories up. Ironically, the policy of joining the ERM was supported by most of the press, Gordon Brown and the Liberals.

But it was just a handful of Euro-Nutters that forced the Tories in, wrecking the party for a decade and a half.

Don't believe that Dave is a believer. He's not. He just keeps quiet about it.

TomTom

Labour has attained its goals through The Project and the Conservatives know it. They simply need a narrative to tax the voters more and spend less; otherwise it is business as usual within EU-Region Britain

Amadeus Plonquer

If this is true then the Conservative party will serve a single term and will thereafter be consigned to the same historical dustbin as the Labour Party. It is NOT their country to play around with. We did NOT give any government the remit to negotiate, change, give away or in any way reduce our national sovereignty.

Cameron must produce a credible plan to give the British people FINAL say in our own future in or out of the EU. Otherwise he's finished before he even starts.

MrJones

Assume there had been a referendum and the enemies of freedom had won. The Tory position would be identical: acceptance in bulk with some vague manifesto nitpicking.

Assume there had been a referendum and the enemies of freedom had lost? The British people would have rejected all those things the Tories will now accept.

Given the assumption that rejection was at least a 50/50 chance this is almost as big a betrayal as Labour and the LDs.

Verity

2TrueBlue writes: "I do not agee with all Cameron says, but feel more comfortable looking to the future with a conservative government so am of the persuasion that we remember whose side we are on."

Does Cameron?

Merlyn

Since lisbon, don't the EU have the powers to dissolve a government that is making waves and order a new election to bring in a more compliant party?
Cameron hasn't got a hope and he knows it, it's about time we all woke up to that.

Roger Davies

I do not see why we cannot have a referendum on the Lisbon Consti-treaty. If the British public give it the thumbs down then Cameron will be able to wave a heavy lever in Brussels in order to re-negotiate our arrangements with the EU. Promising such a vote, even if the Consti-treaty is ratified by all, in their Manifesto will be a vote winner. Well it would assure the Conservatives of mine anyway.

Charles

Let's just face the facts. Assuming Lisbon is ratified, there would be no point in a referendum on it because that would have no impact. It would simply be fighting the last war.

Far better to give Cameron a mandate to try and renegotiate the terms of our membership / reclaim powers from Europe. Give it to him in the form of a manifesto commitment and require him to seek approval of the new membership terms in a referendum. THAT would have impact.

(And, by the way, everyone who is spending all their time attacking Cameron over this, don't forget it wasn't the Tories, but Blair and Brown who broke their promise. Don't let perfection become the enemy of virtue.)

Verityred

Change the record 'Verity', it's nowt to do with whether I agree with you or not, your endless posts drone on about the same thing, post after post. Seek help.

Nick

If Cameron held a referendum next year and the Lisbon Treaty was rejected 70% to 30% (as would seem likely by the polls) what would he do next ?

Exactly what he is suggesting to do now. ie renegotiate various aspects of the treaty (and previous treaties).

So why the fuss about having a referendum ?

And I fully agree with Trevors Den. Verity never gives any evidence for her ridiculous comments about Cameron. Any analysis of Cameron's history and current beliefs suggest he is a Eurosceptic, to claim otherwise is just nonsense.

Vulture

It has been obvious for many months that this is what Dave would do - as he told a questioner on the Euro-election campaign trail who asked what would happen abt Lisbon: 'We'll just have to live with it'.

Dave is a quitter, not a fighter.

However, he will not be able to escape the Euro question that has bedevilled every Govt: viz. that the EU apparat is hell-bent on erecting a supra-national bureaucratic dictatorship, and the people of Europe - especially Britain - are increasingly opposed to this project.

The EU - like the USSR and ex-Yugoslavia - is a top-down diktat; an undemocratic tower of Babel built on sand. It will certainly end in tears - whether it ends in blood too is still uncertain.

Amadeus Plonquer

I'm amazed the press - and indeed the Tories - are treating teh EU issue as a spat between two factions of a political party. It's MUCH more than that.

This is an issue of trust between the British people and those we elect to serve us. If they continue to refuse to consult the will of the British people on this issue then we'll get rid of them.

We will have our referendum sooner or later and with or without David Cameron and the Conservative Party.

If this article is true then I will vote for UKIP and hope for a hung Parliament. I strongly suspect that I will not be the only one.

Andy Leeds

Holding a referendum on Lisbon after all 27 states have ratified it would be a waste of time. Lisbon upon ratification is incorporated into the Treaty of Rome.

Isn't it time we actually came to the logical conclusion: the UK should never have joined the EU in the first place. We have a completely different history and traditions than the rest of Europe. And you have to ask yourselves what accommodation have the Europeans tried to make to these different traditions ? None. The whole European project is sleep walking to tyranny and a withdrawal by the UK might just halt this whole process. And for those who will scream at me that I am being over the top why is it when the EU Constitution was put to the people of France and the Netherlands they said No. And what notice did the European political class take of this 'No'. None whatsoever. And why, if this is a democratic project, did Blair/Brown renege on their promise to hold a referendum in the UK ? Because they know we would have said No. To the EU political elite the only answer that counts, and the only answer that can never be over turned, is the one they want. As I said tyranny in the making.

Neil Turner

At the height of the MP's expenses debacle, I remember hearing Cameron declare that "we need to restore the public's faith in democracy".

I suggest the best way to do this is give us a vote on "in or out"

Surely, in this climate at Westminister, who could object ? But I'm sure they wil object. I'm also sure that Cameron thinks he has done enough to get into No.10.

We will therefore get some mealy-mouthed statement about "negotiations", when the majority of the UK wnat to leave the EU

AS a Tory voter of some 30 years, I'll now be supporting UKIP

seb

Vulture and Verity are right. After mass uncontrolled immigration, what most infuriates voters is Britain's perceived loss of sovereignty to the EU. If, in four years after winning an election, Cameron appears to have done nothing about either, his government will be as despised as Brown's. What this will mean for British participatory democracy in, say, a 2014 election is too hideous to contemplate. If "normal" politicians lack the cojones to even attempt to address voters' concerns, lunatics will find the route unblocked and the doors open to their ascent to some sort of power and influence.

Neil Turner

Sorry to post again so quickly, but I have just read Guido's piece on Cameron

He has dug out DC's quoute to the Sun from September 2007:

"Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations. No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum."

Anythink less than this is a Blair/Brown-type betrayal

Ray Burston

There can be no 'negotiations' because - as far as the the EU elite is concerned - the core goal of "ever-closer union" is non-negotiatiable, and always has been. All the other EU members are ever likely to toss Britain is the old piece of semantic gobbledegook that might offer us the illusion that we have negotiated something tangible.

The stark choice is either 'in': in the full knowledge our national sovereignty (or what's left of it) will remorselessly ebb away with each new treaty until Britain is little more than a parish council; or 'out': for which, if Cameron is earnest in his desire to repatriate real power back from Brussels, he must be fully prepared to put to the British people.

But per-lease, James! Let's have no more of this mealy-mouthed waffle that we might be able to 'negotiate' better terms with this monomaniacal juggernaut. It ain't gonna' happen!

EC

Frank P @12:21am,

Excellent! Congratulations on getting that past the delicate, thin skinned bunch behind the facade. My own forthright, somewhat briefer, comment on AN's apprentice's appearance on "Life on Marrs" yesterday must have caused them to faint. "They don't like it up 'em you know!"

R King

What does it take to make people understand?
If NuLab have signed us IN to the treaty then we are IN.

GET IT?

Lets put it in simple language for those who still struggle to comprehend!

If mummy or daddy sell your favourite toy then you cannot just ask for it back.

It's GONE!!

It's no use asking for a referendum on it.
It's too late.
I just cannot see how you are linking this reality with Camerons political standing as a conservative. Is what you are really saying is that he is not one of the Tebbit & co version of tories, and I hope we never see them back again, then that is a different matter.
Move on the world has changed.

Frank P

Judging by the commentary content on this blog, almost all of the regular punters (apart from the handful of trolls) are small 'c' conservatives; some are probably Tory Party members.

They obviously feel utterly betrayed by this magazine. If many of them are so disgruntled with DC, his Shadow Cabinet and his PR machine, that they are contemplating NOT voting conservative, then where are the votes coming from countrywide? Even Heseltine, with the few brain cells he has left, averred last night on 'Straight Talk' (with the head honcho of this once conservative organ) that it will probably be a hung parliament. Whichever side scrapes through, it certainly won't be a well-hung party. There isn't a decent set of cojones among the whole bloody bunch of 'em.

Is there not a real blue blooded Conservative, possessed of sufficient spunk and fury, that can rise from the scorched earth of England and start a new show called the English Traditional Party (ETP).

My contemporary Norman Tebbit could be his/her back-room consigliere. Norman can hardly be expected to lead it himself as he has to care for his wife Margaret (a primary school classmate of mine - top of the class), grievously physically wounded by evil bastards who are now strutting their stuff on the political stage of this benighted country.

They didn't destroy her spirit, but how must she and her redoubtable husband be feeling as they survey the ashes of the Tories that remain? Isn't there a young turk who can channel the Tebbits’ personal hatred and political contempt for the Left into a viable fighting force, willing to speak honestly, with policies on immigration and Europe that the vast majority of the electorate desire to be espoused and represented openly; rather than the miasma of obfuscation that currently obtains? UKIP has not really displayed its mettle - too much sussy baggage; BNP is Gestapo manqué; the ENP comprises a few football hooligans apparently, God Bless 'em, but they can't cut the mustard!

Cannot someone please prove that the spirit of England is flickering away somewhere in this once green and pleasant land and that there are enough of us to fan it into a roaring flame that will consume the entire current corrupt political edifice and replace it with a patriotic fortress.

Surely, even despite so much evidence to the contrary, it is not too late?

And Fraser Nelson; are we to assume that the garbage dropped on us by Massie yesterday, was the fulfilment of your second promise to address Neather's revelations? Or are you sulking because Marrin and Hitchens beat you to the punch?

Publius

Perhaps Mr Cameron will make selling England to Brussels his "Clause Four Moment".

That would display as much bravery and principle as our own dear Mr Nelson's sucking up to the BBC luvvies.

Still, I cannot quite believe it in either case. In the case of Mr Cameron, he would destroy the Tory party. In the case of Mr Nelson, he would destroy The Spectator.

Even so, I do recall the words of Tacitus: "Capax imperii, nisi imperasset"

Frizby

Sounds like a bunch of nutters posting comments on this blog. What is the point of a referendum if the treaty has been ratified? The whole country would look very weak and vulnerable in foreign eyes just when we'd need to look fresh and renewed in strength. Wasting time voting for something that has already been decided - the decision denied to the people whom it most affects by undemocratic powers that are about to be voted into history at the next GE - will set us back no end. The true acts of grit and wit will come with new government and establishing our future relationship with the EU that benefits us to a greater then if not equal extent to them.

Nick

"It has been obvious for many months that this is what Dave would do - as he told a questioner on the Euro-election campaign trail who asked what would happen abt Lisbon: 'We'll just have to live with it'.

Dave is a quitter, not a fighter."

Seeing as the Lisbon Treaty will have been in place for six months by the time of the next election then Cameron is right that he'll have to live with it.

However it appears he will be fighting the next election on a platform to gain a mandate to renegotiate various aspects of our EU arrangements. How can you possibly describe this as quitting ?

oldtimer

Cameron`s commitment was made in respect of the Conservative`s coming to power before the completion of the ratification process. If Lisbon is ratified by all EU states before he comes to power, then he and the rest of us will be presented with a fait accompli.

The policy challenge then is how best to proceed. In summary there are three options:
(1) roll over and accept the treaty and "move on"
(2) hold an "In or Out" referendum
(3) negotiate the repatriation of the powers surrendered by Brown/Labour in the Lisbon treaty.

I do not, for one moment, believe that Cameron and co will accept (1). Option (2) is the nuclear option. It would be unwise to go down this route before exploring option (3) - renegotiation and repatriation.

If the response of the rest of the EU to renegotiation is a "take it or leave it" attitude then he should go with option (2) and put an "in or out" question in a referendum. That would best be done, and have a greater chance of people making an informed choice, if it followed an attempt to repatriate powers surrendered by Brown and co.

My expectation is that he will seek repatriation and the rest of the EU will negotiate - the UK is, after all, still a net contributor to the EU.

Vulture

@Nick : I think the answer to your question is on Guido Fawkes' blog. In September 2007 Dave gave what he called a 'cast iron guarantee' to the Sun newspaper to hold a referendum on Lisbon if one had not already been held.

Read that and see if you still think the weasel can still be trusted.

The fact that the rest of the EU have validated Lisbon without referenda (which the governing elite knew they would lose) is neither here nor there for Britain.

By reneging on his previous pledge to hold a refererendum Dave has demonstrated what we Dave-sceptics have known for a very long time - he has the principles and leadership qualities of a jellyfish.

Let me bat your question back to you: what has Dave ever said or done that can possibly justify your belief that he is a potentially great or even adequate Prime Minister? In my view he is an empty bag of PR fart gas who will sell anyone or anything to benefit himself. In that and many other senses he truly is as he boasted the 'heir to Blair'.

Nick

An excellent post by oldtimer.

I'd be interested to hear the views of those in the "Dave is weak/I've been a tory for 30 years but will vote UKIP" camp as to what they disagree with in oldtimer's suggestion as the most sensible policy for a eurosceptic Tory government to follow if and when taking office next year.

J H Holloway

There's already a good template for what the UK should do next in relation to the EU

http://www.eu-norway.org/mission/Mission_of_Norway/

'Welcome to the Mission of Norway to the European Union. We represent the Norwegian government on all EU-related issues. With a staff of about 50 people, most of whom are seconded to the Mission by different ministries in Oslo, we maintain and develop co-operative relations between Norway and the EU.'

And here's how it works

http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/norway_and_the_eu/

I recommend reading this - I think it's the way forward.

Dorothy Wilson

I am a very profound EU-sceptic. However, I feel that DC is right to go for renegotiation rather than a post-Lisbon referendum.

Renegotiation should - and will if carried out properly - involve an in-depth examination of our relationship with the EU and the way in which the powers it has grabbed impact on our country. It may also open up the debate in other countries.

If we are able to then renegotiation that relationship all well and good. If we are not it will reveal the EU to be the dictatorship that many of us fear the elite are trying to create. That will lead to the situation those calling for a referendum are trying to generate anyway - the UK's withdrawal.

Thus, it is a matter of tactics and timing.

TomTom

So have a Referendum on Immigration then and show how Consevatives have a mandate to control borders. As Wat Tyler shows on Burning Our Money only 20% immigrants are from the EU so it should not upset Brussels

Fergus Pickering

God, some bloody sense here at last. Thank you, old timer. Thank you, Dorothy Wilson. Who could disagree with you? Ah, I know who.

John Hall

Cameron gave a clear "unequivocal" (his words) undertaking in 2007. He has reneged. Let's call a spade a shovel - HE LIED. This is a betrayal. He has lost this voter. Trust. That was a key Cameronian term. The sheer hypocrisy is only exceeded by the anger this move will generate.

Barbara

The only referendum we ever had - 1975 - was held two years AFTER we joined (presumably via some treaty or other, though I don't recall one being prominently named to us at the time).
The wording was "Should Britain remain in ..." etc.
According to the Euro-fanatics this is impossible, although they seem quite happy to abide by that result.
Why is it different now?
The fact that the result might be different, perhaps?

JONNY

Bright Monday Morn
and begorrah she's orfff again.

Peter

Of course Cameron cannot hold a referendum because any result could be enacted. Whether we like it or not, and I loathe it, Labour have sold us and the nation down the river.

Blair and Brown will forever be remembered for this venal act. We can re-negotiate but since we are unlikely to have the support of many or any other countries we will achieve little. The best thing would be to pro-actively withhold payments and withdraw co-operation and adherence to regulations if they do not suit us.

We might just get thrown out of the club!

General Zod

Frizby, you are correct in that there is indeed a bunch of nutters posting here and that there is no point to a referendum on the treaty once ratified by all 27 Member States.

Brown has had Parliament ratify the Treaty. Once the Czechs ratify, the Treaty will be binding on all Member States. We can seek to change the terms of our membership, but that is a very different matter from not ratifying a Treaty.

Publius

@General Zod
"you are correct in that there is indeed a bunch of nutters posting here and that there is no point to a general election because everything important is decided in Brussels."

This is what I can imagine you posting in a decade's time. Same argument. Just further along the ever-closer-union curve.

Peter

Peter
November 2nd, 2009 12:57pm

"Of course Cameron cannot hold a referendum because any result could NOT be enacted."

A typo - I left out a crucial word now inserted as above.

Verity

Well, I sit down with my first cup of breakfast tea and the first blog is jumping!

Nick writes: “Verity never gives any evidence for her ridiculous comments about Cameron …”. Because I judge the commentariat here – with exceptions like Number Plate, General Zod and other Lefty ninnies - intelligent and astute enough to remember the evidence for themselves and take my points without my having to spell them out.

Vulture’s sums it up succinctly: David Cameron’s a quitter; not a fighter.

Amadeus Plonquer – No. You’re not the only one.

Andy Leeds, yes. The greatest traitor in British history was Edward Heath, and his bizarre meme of "shared sovereignty". They’re not sleepwalking, though, Andy. They’re not sleepwalking. They’re feral and nocturnal. They’re very much awake.

Neil Turner says: "I'm also sure that Cameron thinks he has done enough to get into No.10." Yes, if you mean he has been sufficiently emollient to the Leftist hegemony to have assured them that he will be no trouble if gets his turn.

Andrew in France – "quite a good insight into the character of Johnson that he chose to sack Professor Nutt by email." Yes. Very cowardly and utterly infra dig. David Cameron sacked Patrick Mercer over his cellphone.

Liz Brown recommends googling Brain Parrish for information on Common Purpose. I believe she means Brian Gerrish. For the record, he’s a former naval officer and seems to have his head screwed on just right.

Fergus Pickering makes an astute observation about all of us. We unthinkingly accord “a scientist” the knowledge of all science when, on the particular subject on which he is commenting, he may know sod all.

Neil Turner again, and if the treaty’s already been ratified?

More wise words on Cameron from Vulture: "In my view he is an empty bag of PR fart gas who will sell anyone or anything to benefit himself." I think people are seeing this. The man is charisma-free, so cannot brush off criticism with charm and guile.

Dorothy, as there was any negotiation in the first place that was endorsed by the British electorate, what would be the point of a little “renegotiation” minuet among the Nomenklatura?

Watt Tyler

Im voting UKIP

2trueblue

A truely great propspect, a hung parliment??? We have had 12 years of badly put together legislation, etc., etc., etc., and you want more?

General Zod

Those shouting loudest about the referendum issue (a group closely correlated with those who are so excited about Neather's forgotten article) should be more honest. Yo don't want a pointless referendum on a Treaty that has entered into force. You want a referendum on leaving the EU, but desperate to have a stick with which to beat Cameron for not being Norman Tebbit, you cling to the idea that he promised a referendum.

Peter

Watt Tyler
November 2nd, 2009 2:39pm
Report this comment
Im voting UKIP

Are they advocating withdrawal? If not what is the point, because there is no other option - other than withdrawing co-operation and payments, as I suggested in an earlier post.

General Zod

The French attitude towards Euope has always been that of pure self-interest. We should learn from them. If we want changes, we should withhold money until the EU moves in our direction.

The French threatened to block the 1994 European Parliamentary elections until they got the EU to agree to write the obligation for the Parliament to meet once a month in Strasbourg into Treaty.

Andy

We should have a referendum on in or out now. Lisbon is a done deal without our say so. Cameron won't get my vote unless he gives me a say on whether to give up, stay in and make the best of a bad job or regain freedom as an independent state on the lines of Norway and Switzerland.

Publius

@General Zod
"The French attitude towards Euope has always been that of pure self-interest. We should learn from them. If we want changes, we should withhold money until the EU moves in our direction."

-- But as you yourself would point out, that would be ILLEGAL. Remember, after Lisbon, EU law has primacy over UK law.

"The French threatened to block the 1994 European Parliamentary elections until they got the EU to agree to write the obligation for the Parliament to meet once a month in Strasbourg into Treaty."

-- That was before Lisbon.

-- Look, if you now suddenly think that these unilateral actions are possible (as indeed, they *are* possible) then why stop there?

-- If unilateral actions are possible/acceptable/desirable in order to force changes to the rules, then what are the rules except a heap of contemptible verbiage?

He ain't got no heart

and history shall record him as Cameron the Coward and he and his followers were cursed with one unhappy term before the Traitor Miliband was reinstalled by the President to continue the Projekt.

egh

I really don't know why everyone's so worried about breaking euSSR law!!! They made it and imposed it without asking us ... that's called Dictatorship. That's not what we understand, here, as true law.

What's been perpetrated on us is also called being "sold a pig in a poke": and that means we have every right to dispute the transaction, to require restitution, and to have those involved in the scam declared the criminals they are! But no, we sit here wittering on about obeying the law even when it's invented and imposed by criminals!!!!

It also means that if we go on buying the garbage, and not remembering what law is supposed to be about: then we really are as stupid, vapid, and spineless as we look.