The Euroball is rolling

anne allan

As I've said before: ultimately, what can the EU do if we refuse to kowtow to their stupid rules?
Invade us? The Germans aren't allowed to fight after dark and no other country has the will or resources.
If Britain developed a spine, I think we would be surprised how many other countries would join in - particularly the eastern european states that have had a mere 20 years of freedom.

Tiberius

"A direct popular vote on a proposed law or constitutional amendment".

I decided to google a definition of referendum.

We're assuming Lisbon will have been passed if Cameron wins an election in 2010.

This discussion is very irritating. Cash should steady his eyes, wipe the foam from his mouth, and check his expense claims.

Cameron may take a variety of actions or none over the EU, but if the Czechs finish the job, he cannot offer a referendum on Lisbon in any sense that the English language permits.

Andrew Cadman

@Anne, no they could do something much, much as far as our political and media elite are concerned.

Deny us a place at the top table!.

Being in Europe is all wrapped up in the psychological inadequacy of Britain's ruling class with its vast and greatly inflated sense of entitlement: they simply can not imagine being denied a seat at the top tables and councils of the world.

The laughable but equally pathetic adherence to a 'special relationship' with the United States is the other side of the same psychological coin.

Publius

Our lickspittle rulers and their media sycophants think they are being very clever in duping and manipulating the people. They will come to regret it.

In time, they will stare in horror at what they have done, and wonder how it all came about.

Vulture

The referendum is only 'pointless' if we play by the bent rules that the EU has set : Viz. that a 'Treaty' rejected thrice by referenda should be steamrollered into Euro-law regardless. If we simply say 'No' what are they going to do as Anne says - invade us? Business will continue whether we are in or outside this monstrous whale.

If the EU is as beneficial as its backers claim, why is UK Euroscepticism steadily increasing - indeed is higher now than at any time since we joined the whole misbegotten enterprise?

I guess that lack of democracy is OK for a collection of countries (with the exception of Sweden and Ireland) all of which were within living memory Nazi, Communist or fascist, or occupied by same. It just doesn't work for us. Bill Cash is a boring old dinosaur to be sure, but what he says is quite correct.

Ian Walker

I agree with Anne - I have no problem with a single european trade body to negotiate on the world stage with China/India/Russia/USA (as seems to be the new reason we need one apparently). I just don't want it to be the corrupt, unaccountable EU.

Withdraw from the EU, set up an alternative European trade body, democratically constituted and accountable, and powers limited to what its peoples want, not its rulers. Then wait and see who joins. Turkey for starters, probably the Scandinavians shortly afterwards, Eastern Europe as well. Eventually the EU would be left as Germany and France, who frankly deserve each other.

Colin

"Team Cameron will be delighted if Cash is the only outspoken critic of this inevitable change of tack."

That delight might turn to horror when they realise they've kissed goodbye to between sixty and 70 seats at the next election, as a result of their equivocation on the eu.

Publius

Mr Blackburn writes:
"...but Cameron has little choice to take a Eurospectic stance on issues related to the Social Chapter."

Why? Why only the Social Chapter? Why not the self-amending new EU constitution that will circumvent the need ever again to consult the electorate? Why not the chimera of an EU-wide foreign policy? Why not the primacy of EU law over British law, and the EU arrest warrant against which there is no appeal? Why not the requirement that member governments promote the aims of the EU -- i.e., ever-closer union?

Cogito Ergosum

Bill Cash, Edward Taylor, and Duncan Smith destroyed John Major's government rather than accept the pragmatic policy of that government. The consequence was ten years of the Blair/Brown joint consulship which has done more damage to Britain than anything from Europe.

Cash and co have a lot to answer for.

Tiberius

If Colin turns out to be right (and I don't think he will be), then a treachery equal to that of Labour over immigration will have been committed.

It is one thing for Tory EU rebels to attempt to scuttle their party's prospects for government for a second time, but quite another knowingly to condemn the country to a further term at the hands of the juvenile, self-loathing acolytes of the British Labour party.

Hawkeye

I don't normally swear on forums but as this is the EU I will make an exception....

Andrew Cadman said: "Deny us a place at the [EU] top table!."

And I say f*** them and their top table. If we go off and take our £40 million per day that we pay them, they'll soon come crawling. The EU never has enough money and their already parlous accounts don't need an extra whopping big hole in them.

We need them a lot less than they need us. Can you imagine the efficiency that would be breathed back into the UK once we dump all the EU's socialist clap-trap? Apart from the billions we dump in Brussel's coffers we could save billions more in wasted time and daft objectives.

Better Off Out!!!!

Dorothy Wilson

Colin: and who are the electors in those seats going to vote for? Labour or the LibDems who would roll over and do everything the EU asks? UKIP who don't stand a chance of winning an overall majority? Or the Conservatives who are, at least, offering the chance to renegotiate? And if the renegotiation doesn't work we can then have the in/our referendum.

Timing and tactics!

Peter

There are only two options, assuming the ghastly treaty is ratified before the election.

1. Co-operate as little as possible with Brussels, withhold payments as long as possible and ignore regulations we do not agree with. There will be no option for renegotiation because no one will negotiate with us.

2. Leave the EU.

Publius

@Dorothy Wilson
And when do you think Mr Cameron will actually tell us what the policy is, and how it is going to be achieved? I must admit I'm getting tired of waiting, and being fobbed off with "not talking about hypotheticals" and "one policy at a time".

Neil Turner

Building on Colin's comment...

"Team Cameron will be delighted if Cash is the only outspoken critic of this inevitable change of tack."

I think this quote shows just how far removed the Tory top team is from mainstream opinion

More power to Bill Cash I say

PS We haven't heard from UKIP yet ?

Liz Brown

Dizzy says that there is an opt out clause in the Lisbon Con/Treaty - if he's right, lets go for it....for sure there is no point in holding a referendum if the damn thing is signed sealed and delivered
Let us withhold our payments and use the money to draw down our natinal debt.
Who the hell cares if we are kicked out - they need us far more than we need them........

Not for Prophet

Hawkeye - Better Off Out! BOO! I like it.

Steve L

As I understand it, a referendum is *not* a waste of time after the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, as it does have provisions within it for member states to withdraw after ratification. Dizzy discusses it here...

http://dizzythinks.net/2009/11/eu-gesture-politics.html

Trafalgar

Why is Bill Cash not a member of UKIP? He clearly wants Britain out of the EU - a position more in keeping with UKIP than the Conservatives.

Colin, would you expect the Conservatives to lose an existing 60 seats - or lose 60 potential gains? Either way, I don't agree that the Conservatives will lose seats by not campaigning on the EU. Quite the reverse. Pollsters have continually shown that the Tories actually lose votes when Europe is discussed. You might not like it but that is a fact I'm afraid.

Naomi Muse

I got the impression that whilst it appears to be a dumb and costly move to indicate that there might be a possibility of any referendum at all after the rest of the EU have ratified the treaty, it may be one of a couple of possibilities:

1. a legal ploy to indicate that the current government were without mandate, as they broke an election promise to hold the referendum and therefore to de ratify it on the basis of an illegal move by labour in ratifying without referendum.

A sort of breach of promise action really..

2. That a referendum be called by the incoming government with a totally different set of questions put to the electorate

3. another legal ploy that I have not thought of..

JONNY

Ah Yes good old Bill Cash.
The one who stuck the knife into Major pre-97 and helped give us 13 years of Blair, Brown and Labour.
And now he won't be happy till he's engineered another 5.
Another unappealing bunny-faced bigoted dinosaur Tory whom we could well do without.

Occasional Ostrich

Don't anybody DARE to say "can't". Harold Wilson could, holding a referendum on the entire issue of our accession to the Treaty of Rome in 1975, citing another falsehood, "No entry on Tory terms". OK, Brussels whinged about it a bit, but the whole thing went ahead. So why is it so difficult for the Conservatives?

Barbara

Well we now know! What a let down. This will lose the Conservatives lots of votes and forums are already showing this to be true with people saying they will not vote for them but Ukip or the bnp. We the electorate have the right to decide our own destiny, not Europe. We've fought in two world wars to free those who would rule us now, no thank you. What ever they say I for one will NEVER accept their rule of law without my consent of a vote, that's democracy in motion. Cameron is just has bad as Brown in letting the state down, for all his promises, lecturing, he's let us down completely, so, its another party that will fight our corner, Ukip or bnp here I come.

TGF UKIP

Guido, at order-order.com, getting well and truly stuck into Dave for breaking his promise on Lisbon.

Tiberius, are you hoping we have forgotten how your wing of the Tory Party sabotaged Hague and Howard in 2001 and 2005?

Sir Graphus

completely agree with JONNY and a few others. Cash is a numbskull; always was.

You have to pick your battles with the EU, and this ain't 1 that can be won. There's an awful lot of other ways the EU can be resisted that are more effective.

emil

Yet when Hague, and before that Labour, went to the country on an anti EU agenda they both got roundly thrashed.

People don't care about the EU, they bloody well should, but they don't !

Tanuki

Sometimes, when the Ship of State is clearly in danger of being captured by the enemy, the only honourable thing to do is to scuttle her.

More power to Bill Cash: Cameron's current posture on all matters-EU is a great recruiting-sergeant for UKIP.

JONNY

There is no chance at all of a Leave Europe Altogether Referendum (supported by some here) being carried.

Too many doomsday arguments from all three main parties about job losses, bankruptcy, runs on the Pound etc etc etc will scare off the voters.
That's exactly why the Lib-Dems have been pushing for one stupid.

Michael

The problem with the minds of those who decry Bill Cash's stance is that they approved of the dire left wing Major government. They call it 'pragmatism' Some of us call it scandalous weakness.

John Law

Cogito Ergosum
November 2nd, 2009 4:55pm

"Bill Cash, Edward Taylor, and Duncan Smith destroyed John Major's government rather than accept the pragmatic policy of that government. The consequence was ten years of the Blair/Brown joint consulship which has done more damage to Britain than anything from Europe.

Cash and co have a lot to answer for"

And here's me thinking it was Major's decision (as chancellor) to join the ERM wot done for him!

Colin

There's a school of thought that says UKIP cost the Tories up to fifty seats at the last election.

I know that the political industry keeps telling us that Europe is not an issue for ordinary people, but, I'm not so sure. They also told us that the MP's expenses scandal was a Westminster Village story.

People are very angry. It wouldn't take much to ignite the EU debate, by linking it to the arrogance of our elected elite - A they're all in it against us, kind of thing.

The potential saving grace for the Tories is the fact that UKIP looks to be f*cked, as a result of some selective application of electoral law.

Enoch was Right

It appears that once the Czech President signs up then the Lisbon Treaty is a done deal. The best that Britain can do in those circumstances is to negotiate the return of as much sovereign power as possible. Threats and withdrawal of contributions should not be necessary if Britain negotiated from a position of strength. Assuming - as we do - he becomes the next Prime Minister David Cameron should immediately hold a referendum on the return of powers to Britain. The question posed in the referendum would need to be carefully phrased. An overwhelming vote in his favour would give him a very strong hand in negotiations. He would also have kept his word. The fact that he could not withdraw Britain completely is not his fault. That fact needs to be rammed home at every opportunity.

Andy Leeds

I disagree with Jonny (7:45pm). If a 'Leave Europe altogether referendum' was held I think there is a very high chance that it would be carried. The people are not so stupid that they don't realize that the whole EU project has been foisted on them by an out of touch and arrogant political elite. If the whole EU project had as much support as the LibDens claim they and the Labour Government would have held the referendum promised on the Lisbon treaty. They didn't because whenever it has been put to the people (leaving aside the latest vote in Ireland) the people have said No. But of course to such undemocratic folk as LibDems and Labour a No vote doesn't count does it ?

It is high time we actually had the courage to say No to the EU and leave. As some others point out this would alter the EU too: I think many others would prefer a loose association rather than the semi fascist set up we seem to suffer now.

Tiberius

TGF: no sabotage was needed. The leadership back then was terminally out of touch with the voters.

The only sabotage from 1997 to 2005 was the scuttling of Portillo's leadership, which in consequence gave us the irresistable leadership qualities of IDS.

I shudder when I think of the carnage pre-Cameron.

2trueblue

The conservatives lost when they went on the EU, and they lost when they went on immigration. Now everyone wants to talk aout both. They were way ahead of the curve and they were right. You can hardly blame them when the electorate got it wrong.

denis cooper

Well done, Bill Cash, one of the minority of Tory MPs who is a patriot and a firm supporter of our national democracy.

Here are four reasons for holding a consultative referendum specifically on the Lisbon Treaty, even if it was already in force:

1. The people were promised such a referendum by all of the main parties.

2. It's the only way to properly assess how strongly the people feel that its imposition should be reversed.

3. It would help Cameron to have a strong direct mandate for re-negotiation.

4. By setting minimum requirements for the outcome of re-negotiations, it would stop Cameron doing a Wilson on us.

Remember that Heath had taken us into the so-called Common Market in 1972, with effect from January 1st 1973, and then in 1974 Wilson was elected on the promise of a re-negotiation, to be followed by a referendum to see whether we wanted to stay in on the "improved terms" he had obtained.

In the event the improvements to our terms of membership which he negotiated were so trivial that there wasn't even the need to amend the treaty.

Nevertheless the government spent taxpayers' money to persuade us that all our concerns had been addressed, and allowed the "yes" side to outspend the "no" side by a factor of ten, as I recall, and did everything else it possibly could to get a "yes" vote.

I don't want a re-run of the 1975 referendum, thanks.

Agent Digby mai

If this nutcase and other Euro Crazies make too much noise we will end up with another 5 years of Brown. For goodness sake will someone call the nice young men in their clean white coats and take him away.

callingallcomets

Sorry - not interested in William Cash after he was revealed as another trougher. They think they can carry on pontificating and we'll listen with respect...sorry Bill, you are a busted flush

Cogito Ergosum

Reply to Denis Cooper 9.36pm.

Point 2, "It's the only way..."

Nonsense! If you want to discover what people are thinking, a professional opinion poll will tell you. You certainly don't need an expensive and pointless referendum.

2trueblue

A professional poll will tell you very little. You write the questions, you go out and seek participants to fit your quotas.

Referendum, people find their own way to the booth and you get their view.

Victor Southern

I am a Eurosceptic but we mostly have here is UKIP headbangers with dire predictions of what they saw in their tea leaves. So totally one dimensional they are that they would actually welcome another 5 years of Labour so that they could say "I told you so".

If they have indeed run out of money then they could always approach the unions who would be delighted to finance these useful fools.

Every vote they cast against the Conservatives is indeed turkeys voting for Christmas.

JONNY

The only Referendum I care about is the one taking place on May 6th 2010.
The one on Gordon Brown, Mandelson et al.
Focus hard on that one. Because if we don't win, we can whistle for any other.

egh

Say BOO to Brussells!!
Any and Every way that we can (and never mind about what their "laws" say we can and can't do ... their anyway).

Amadeus Plonquer

I didn't think it was physically possible. But it appears that David Cameron's iron-clad pants are now ablaze.

FYI: Internet traffic on the UKIP site is at its highest level ever today.

Amadeus Plonquer

Anyone who thinks for a minute that not having our referendum (yes OUR, not their) will not gravely impact the Tories electoral chances is simply barking.

There will be a HUGE drift to UKIP who may then hold the balance of power in the ensuing hung Parliament. That is now the UK's best chance to see democracy in action. I for one have today shifted my voting intentions to UKIP. Somehow I don't think I'll be alone.

Roger Davies

Although it is unlikely that UKIP will win this seat, it is highly likely that they will receive my protest vote. I wish my opposition to a Federal EU and the Lisbon Consti-Treaty to be counted.
I do not see the UK developing a sufficiently vigorous economy necessary to overcome our parlous debt situation from within the bondage of this very undemocratic socialist leaning club.

Publius

When I was younger, I used to consider such places as Nazi Germany and wonder how a whole nation could in effect go completely mad. I see a similar sort of collective bullying denial over the EU, so that now those who believe in sovereignty and liberty are called "nutters" and "headbangers", and those who advocate the systematic deception of the people and the handing over of power to a centralized bureaucratic elite are called "moderate", "realistic".

I think back, too, to the way Churchill was vilified during his wilderness years in the 1930s. But he was right. And the vast majority, who mocked and scorned him, were wrong.

General Zod

UKIP would be utterly horrified if thye ended up holding any kind of power. They don't expect to, have never prepared for it and don't have the people necessary to deal with it.

Voting UKIP is a purely negative act.

General Zod

and I will add that if Bill Cash were honest with himself and the electors of his constituency, he would have resigned the whip and stoood as a UKIP candidate long ago.

JONNY

Just wondering Amadeus Plonquer
what the realistic odds are on UKIP 'holding the balance of power' in the next Parliament.
Not a whisper on PB.
Hard men putting down hard money.
Not blinkered hopefuls.

Minnie Ovens

Mr Blackburn's tonality smacks of Kenelm Hubert Digby's in 1933.