There is only one question that frightens Brussels

Tankus

cast iron votes for UKIP

Nick

"The post-Lisbon EU is more powerful, bullying (as we saw with Ireland and Czechs) and it will refuse any request Cameron makes."

Ireland and the Czech Republic are two small countries in receipt of large net inflows from the EU coffers. The UK is the second largest net contributor to the EU.

You don't think this might have some bearing on whether the EU might have to agree to the UK's demands ?

Short the UK

Day by day I see little reason to vote in UK elections:

~Corrupt MPs.
~Stupid wars.
~Broken promises.
~Economic mismanagement.

The list goes on.

As the UK sinks further (undeveloping nation syndrome) I see more enstrangement from Westminster.

Things can only get worse.

I am an optimist by nature but our elite makes me feel very pessimistic :-)

DavidDP

"So David Cameron will let it rest there after all. "

Your UKIP-tendency is blinding you quite terribly.

None of the speech can be legitimately interprested as "well, that's it, lets move on" as letting matters rest would entail.

Further, you fail to appreciate the tactical move of linking Tory euro-scepticism to the situation in Germany as is now.

Irene

I still don't know what would happen if the Tories didn't play ball on certain things.
What can the EU do exactly.

NorthernJohn

I am depressed.

NIN

Excellent article.

Simon Denis

I think you underestimate him. Either way, admitting defeat on this issue in the face of apparently insurmountable odds is no dishonour. Nevertheless, every one of your observations has - I daresay - occured to Mr Cameron already. We will see and when the time for the show down comes I hope that no nit-picking, fool-born scruples about "journalism" will prevent the Tory press from backing our man to the hilt.

Roadrunner

thats it then,no referendum not much of anything other than waffle,the LibLabCon con will con me no more i'm off to UKIP and a plague on all your houses.

Saltirethinking

Snake oil Cameron.

Summer

So instead of giving us a 'stick to beat the EU', he gives us an ultimatum that a vote for his manifesto is a vote for the status quo of Lisbon.

If we don't vote for him we get Brown and the EU, if we do vote for him we get Cameron and the EU. I'm not sure I really know what the difference will be??

Well thank you Mr Cameron, thank you for respecting the wishes of the people and giving us a choice. Your're pulling the wool over our eyes just like all the 'political elite'.

I hope I live to see the day when the English choose 'not to let the matter rest'!! The EU may have won the battle, but I'll dedicate everything I can to make damm sure they will not win the war.

David Lindsay

Easy. An amendment or a one-clause Bill restoring the supremacy of British over EU law wherever the two conflict, and, to get the ball rolling, declaring that this shall be the case with regard to the United Kingdom's historic, and internationally lawful, fishing rights: 200 miles or to the median line. That way lies the capture of Lib Dem strongholds from every seat in Cornwall, round North Norfolk, Berwick-upon-Tweed and North-East Fife, to the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. No need for a referendum. No need to go to Brussels for negotiations. Easy. So why not?

Yow Min Lye

At last! A Spectator article that tells it like it is. It's either 'IN' or 'OUT' - there is no other meaningful referendum question.

Jez

I've my nearly three year old lad sat on my lap as i'm attempting to write this one (wallace and gromit via Youtube may be the next PC port of call i think)

Let's face facts, you're selling the un-sellable.

Straight right.

Like someone said above;

Afghanistan.
Immigration.
The Bank/Cradit crisis.
Social fracture.
Collapse of discipline in schools.
Us getting sucked into the EU.

And there's nothing 'we' can do?

WTF?

What's the point of the Tories then?

That smug git who was on 909mw this morning about 8.20am;

'Let's not worry about the 2% of Eurosceptics and go for the 20% Centre'

Here's a word; Betrayal. Betrayal of Conservative values.

And.

If the UKIP gets its act together the Conservatives will be in trouble i really hope.

Everyone's had enough of this now.

DavidDP

Most of this reads as if written before the speech, as it relies on a lot of assumptions which bear little relation to what was actually said.

Poor.

2trueblue

You said that there were two things
Power
Wonga

As we are the 2nd biggest contributor I think that is quite a stick to weild. We do not get vey much in return so lets see what Cameron will do next year. Whatever else people think they have to realise that Labour sold us down the river hook, line and sinker. Having done that, Blair gave away our rebate for nothing.
I am sure that Cameron has not given up all his jewels today, so watch and wait. We have no other option, well we could have Labour back or a hung parliment. Then it will be time to leave.

TrevorsDen

Your words show that you do not know any more than the next man.

We have 7.8 billions worth of clout, if we choose to use it. If we are unhappy with what comes out of the EU we can if we want easily do something about it.

The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU, again if we do not like it we can do something about it. None of this is difficult if we want to.

The main point at issue at the moment is that there is no point to a referendum now. That's always been the published tory position and dopes like tankus can whistle for it if they want.

seb

David Lindsay

Absolutely right. Now we have both journalists AND politicians warning us that we'd upset the EU by restoring the supremacy of Westminster statutes over laws passed by the EU's rubber-stamp parliament. And we'd give a monkey's about this because......?

Doug

Fraser you wonderful man. Totally nailed Cameron there and all the red herrings Cameron voice today.

Imagine the MP like sheep clapping 'Never Again', not one of our 'lawmakers' understanding that it doesn't matters jot due to the self-amending nature of Lisbon.

After supporting Cameron through thick and thin for the last few years my vote is now in the undecided box and will be taking a very close interest in my UKIP candidate.

The Huntsman

After the surrender of 4th November
The Leader of the Conservative Party
Had leaflets distributed all over Westminster
Stating that The People
Had forfeited the confidence of The Party
And could win it back only
by redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for Cameron
to dissolve The People
And appoint another?

with apologies to Bertolt Brecht

Forlornehope

Did anyone at the Spectator watch Angela Merkel's address to the US Congress yesterday? Speaking in very clear German as befits the Chancellor, she spoke eloquently of the "special relationship" between the United States and Europe. Her language was carefully chosen to make accurate translation into English straightforward. She was lucid, visionary and inspiring and was received with repeated standing ovations. It was a bid for leadership in the transatlanic relationship and it was a success. That is the future, whether you like it or not.

echo34

One way to get your referendum on the Lisbon treaty.

Use the next GE as referendum. Easily done and then we'll see whether us eurosceptics are in the minority or not.

Or maybe we'll be undermined by the generation of idiots we call the electorate that has been produced in the last 30 years.. who knows but at least it's democratic.

the general election will be the uk's referendum.

Charlie

@FN "What the new Tory package amounts to is a promise to ask the EU very nicely if it will consider handing back a few powers over employment and justice."

Frazer, I think that you are mistaken. Cameron has played a blinder here.
It is certainly possible to enact the "Referendum Lock". In Germany, Supreme Power rests with the National Court, apparently.

Can you imagine Labour winning anything with slogans like
"We will give back power from the UK Supreme Court to Brussels"? or
"We will abolish the Referendum Lock" so that we can give away even more power without consulting you".

Martin Cole

Hmmmmmmmmm! Clearly careful thought over several days will be required before deciding on a considered way ahead!

I personally campaigned and strived over many years with my novel, on my blogs and in my fruitless days in the NE of England striving to become an MEP candidate for UKIP prior to becoming a founding member of Veritas to now suggest that any solutions post the ratification of the EU constitution are either readily available or easily discovered.

In this moment of national annihilation and as democracy has now been extinguished across the former nations of the EU., I have found solace in Kipling's poem "The Little People" these verses of which seem particularly apt at this moment:

"A Pict Song"

Rome never looks where she treads.
Always her heavy hooves fall
On our stomachs, our hearts or our heads;
And Rome never heeds when we bawl.
Her sentries pass on--that is all,
And we gather behind them in hordes,
And plot to reconquer the Wall,
With only our tongues for our swords.

We are the Little Folk--we!
Too little to love or to hate.
Leave us alone and you'll see
How we can drag down the State!
We are the worm in the wood!
We are the rot at the root!
We are the taint in the blood!
We are the thorn in the foot!

Mistletoe killing an oak--
Rats gnawing cables in two--
Moths making holes in a cloak--
How they must love what they do!
Yes--and we Little Folk too,
We are busy as they--
Working our works out of view--
Watch, and you'll see it some day!

No indeed! We are not strong,
But we know Peoples that are.
Yes, and we'll guide them along
To smash and destroy you in War!
We shall be slaves just the same?
Yes, we have always been slaves,
But you--you will die of the shame,
And then we shall dance on your graves!

We are the Little Folk, we, etc.

chris as usual

Labour signed the Treaty on behalf of UK and its people. The fact that there was no referendum by Labour is now history and of no interest to the EU politicians and bureaucracy.

So there is a need for a policy which either goes with the status quo or does not. It seems that if we make requests for a change, they will be ignored. Therefore if we want change then we must openly break the rules or make our own rules. This is the bit that would require legitimacy - i.e. there would need to be a referendum or a general election on these matters.

I do think, however, that the 'pull out whatever' citizens, in all honesty, should go to UKIP if this issue is so important to them that it over-rides everything else. But would such a vote help Labour in particular constituencies, who are the main culprits in all this (together with the LibDems)

barbara

This article is really informing and I enjoyed reading it, however, I agree with most comments there's one I'd challenge the Spectator to, why don't you challenge the Tories and this inept government to give us the chance to decide our own destiny, like a referendum 'in or out'. That is what most of the people seem to want the right to choose and I suspect that the answer would be 'NO' and the answer' OUT' and the latter would please me no end. There appears no other option for us, Cameron cannot ignore that call if it were loud enough, we know Brown would he ignores everyone, but the Conservatives are another party. If we are denied this choice then we have the last line of defence, the democratic choice in the next election, now we have two other parties in the running not just three, so our choice can be switched as we see fit. We need the media with the public for this fight, so is this magazine up to that fight?

Hawkeye

Short the UK said: "Day by day I see little reason to vote in UK elections: "

OK then, don't vote. But if you don't vote then don't complain about the government you get.

Neil Turner

It would be interesting to reduce the number of MPs on a pro-rata basis to the powers that Parliament has lost since 1975.

How many MPs would we have left ?

PS Both Sky and ITN had relegated the Cameron story to 3rd place on their 6.30 bulletins. The media are just as much to blame for this sell-out as our politicians

In June I voted for UKIP as a protest after 30 years as a Tory. UKIP can now count on my support

Ex-Tory voter

The moment Cameron announced there would be no referendum, I announced "he's lost my vote". Judging by other people here I'm not alone.

TGF UKIP

Seems I owe Dave a huge aqpology after all. Not until now did I realize that all along he has been a closet recruiter for UKIP.

Sorry Dave and please carry on the good work.

Fergus Pickering

I too think your post poor. Do you suppose Cameron doesn't know all that? The man's not even Prime Minister yet. You want him to show all the cards in his hand six months before he gets to play any of them. Get a grip,man. I had thought better of you, but you seem to be just another scribbler. Your job is to cheer a bit. At least that's what your job is now. You are giving comfort to the enemy. Stop it. Or is this the Barclays' take? Humph!

Publius

DavidDP draws attention to:
"the tactical move of linking Tory euro-scepticism to the situation in Germany as is now."

-- And here, believe it or not, I agree with you. A clever tactic. If it's good enough for the Germans, then why ain't it good enough for us?

-- But I think I need to keep my eye on whether asserting the supremacy of British law actually happens. If it doesn't, then the rest is worth squat.

Verity

What David Lindsay said.

Watt Tyler

Thank you, Fraser Nelson, for writing about the truth of the situation. I am heartened because it does fall to well-known media people to spell this out to the British. There really aren't that many truth and justice journos these days, and so the job is proportionately difficult.

YOu are right to conclude that the "In or Out" referendum is the only way forward now, and yesterday I said that if Cameron doesnt include it in his rethink, then I would be leaving the Tories, and voting for UKIP. Voting UKIP as of today.

.... .... ......

What on earth makes you think it will be any different for UKIP or the BNP?
We may believe we want an 'in'or 'out' referendum but would we vote 'out'? Yes we know 'you' would,but would EVERYONE?
Let's all just blame Cameron and the lying sleazy tories for welching on a deal he NEVER actually made...it is the whiter than white Labour government and the news presenters that say he did.
What Cameron ACTUALLY said was,if the Lisbon treaty was NOT ratified he would have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
We should also be asking why the Chech republic was FORCED into signing?
UKIP have NO POWER to do anything. Everyone and their dog would have to switch their vote...which in this jumped up country is....on a scale of 1 to 10 - zilch.
Giving your vote to UKIP or the BNP may make you feel 'enpowered' but they would fare no better than Labour.
All you would be doing is giving a party,
that is ALWAYS being held to account on the bad behaviour of backbenches,but NEVER on the successess, they made after the last Labour mess...one less vote.
This Labour mess WILL take the backing of ONE party, from ALL of us,if we actually WANT something done.
Labour are not bothered who wins the next election AS LONG AS IT IS NOT THE TORIES!!
Voting against them do Labour's job for them.Our best bargaining chip is the line Cameron took if necessary we would have to decide on a BROADER referendum.We give a barrow load of money to the EU and if that was threatened the greedy troughers over there would prefer to give a few concessions than lose it completely.Ireland and the Chech republic had the backing of government,with Cameron & Hague we would win.
You may well have decided to vote UKIP/BNP so we either get a squabling hung parliament,Labour squabling to get rid of Brown and the Conservatives on a new leadership campaign...JUST what the country needs in the financial hole she is in.
This election IS the most important one to the ENTIRE country and we really need to THINK straight when we do vote..if at all.

mitch

So I'm forced to pay for something I never voted for and can never vote against, that can assume powers over me I cant challenge and we live in a democracy........?

Cameron you just lost another vote.

Slim Jim

I'm with chris as usual and others on here. I reckon the young Cameron is playing the long game, and he doesn't want to scare the horses too much. The main job is to get elected in the first place. For those of you thinking of joining UKIP, why not join the Conservative party instead and argue from within? Big battalions, etc.

Watt Tyler

Hang on a mo!. It seems me that the "can't do anything" position as held by Cameron and a few posters hereabouts is based on the idea that we have no better option other than to be a member of the EUSSR.

Perhaps the next step for you and the Spectator, Mr Nelson, is to correct that false assumption, help some people be less fearful about UK independence, and help them understand the absolute importance of government for, by and of the people.

Vote UKIP!

Watt Tyler

@Hawkeye

The only government we will ever get from now on will based in Brussels, and we won't have voted for it.

Vote UKIP!

Peter

Tankus
November 4th, 2009 5:48pm
Report this comment
cast iron votes for UKIP

A vote for UKIP will be utterly wasted unless you want to guarantee a hung parliament. Even if UKIP guarantee a referendum on "in or out" it will be irrelevant as they have not the remotest chance of forming a government.

don hammond

Scare the EEC by telling them that no more money will be paid by UK taxpayers into the EEC system until the accounts are subject to a real third party audit system.
We would not pay grants to UK organisations with no audit of the finances.
Kinnock bottled the job - here is areal chance to make a difference.

oldtimer

The speech needs to be considered from two angles - the practicalities of achieving repatriation of powers and the practicalities of getting elected in the first place.

It was more convincing on the second of these than the first. For the moment Conservatives want to win the GE. Europe is a relatively low priority issues for most voters (if not for posters here, including myself).

If he is indeed stiffed by the rest of the EU, as you say he will be, then his problems will considerable towards the end of a first term. His stated position, in that eventuality, sounded weak and unconvincing. The pressure then for an in/out referendum will be considerable, not least from his own side. I expect that he knows this as well as the rest of us. He will try to wing it when the time comes.

David Ossitt

“Cameron had no options today, and did the best he could in the circumstances.”

Wrong on both counts; he has another option, and if this is his best he could do then god help him.

He and everybody else are saying it is a done deal so a referendum would be a pointless exercise.

No; that is just wrong, if he were to call that referendum and at the same time inform the EU that he would expect them to honour the result of that referendum by if there were a no vote a retrospectively exclusion of Britain from the treaty and if he did not have this agreement that he would take all steps necessary for us to permanently leave the EU.

stereodog

I would like to point out that it was the Lib Dems who advocated the in or out question during the Lisbon debates. They were mocked by this website among many others. I hope your leading article tomorrow will acknowledge this.

Hawkeye

I'm inclined to believe that Cameron has done better than most of the commenters above think he has. A quick scoot around the leftie blogs shows that many of them are seething with anger. The was even one that screamed "To be against the EU is to be against the left!".

Priceless....

mac

I also agree with David Lindsay (which is probably a first).

Your piece reads strongly Kipperish, Fraser, and doubtless it'll encourage more of the anti-Cameron sound and fury that has predominated on this week's threads. Think I'll migrate to pb.com until the barrage lifts!

JohnC

What a gutless, cowardly, oily politician he is terrified of the undemocratic EU and with no regard to the anger he has created to many voters in the UK who now like me will not vote for him come 2010.
Never agian will I vote for these Chamberlist's

Moraymint

This is getting beyond a joke.

Why are we convinced that we now exist in the economic and political equivalent of a maximum security jail?

We live in a democracy, don't we? Why do we have to accept meekly that our destinies henceforth lie in the decision-making vagaries of an unelected bureaucracy situated on some other shore?

Does nobody in our political class have the courage to respond to the will of the British people? Or, is this just another example of the yawning gulf between those who govern us and, we, the neutered electorate?

With each passing day, our once proud, independent and respected nation declines inexorably.

Jez

From Peter, November 4th, 2009 7:22pm:

"A vote for UKIP will be utterly wasted unless you want to guarantee a hung parliament. Even if UKIP guarantee a referendum on "in or out" it will be irrelevant as they have not the remotest chance of forming a government."

We've the equivilant of a hung parliment now Peter!

THEY'RE BOTH THE BLOODY SAME!

Are you reading the same news i am?

EU; the same
(Sorry to mention it again, but) Immigration; the same
Afghanistan; the same

The problem you'll have with a UKIP (hypothetically here;) even a BNP government is that they'd just lurch out of the EU.

And the fact is; The Conservatives and Nulab have almost injured themselves successfully getting rid of all our industrial assetts, raw material production and home grown skilled workforce.

It is a fact.

Buy a bathroom- made in china. Want some coal- Columbia/Polska. Specialist Machinery?- Do you Sprechen Sie Deutsch Geezer?

The UK would be even more knackered when our ex 'EU partners' don't want to renegotiate trade and slam the door in our faces.

It's a completely hung parliment now.

All that will change when the Tories get in the driving seat is the Cameron/Osborne and Hague will have far better network to persue their personal advancement.

(do i sound cynical?)

Fragmeister

I'm fed up too. I'm fed up that Il Presidente Blair promised (wrought iron) a referendum. I'm fed up that Kaiser Brown fucked up the economy while the Red Queen was in Number 10 plotting the downfall of the United Kingdom and agreed with his mate/worst enemy that we should then shouldn't have a referendum. I'm fed up that Kaiser Brown had the supreme courage to piss off on his own to sign the shitty thing in a cupboard. I'm fed up that the real blame for all this is being missed. Blair and Brown should be strung up by what passes for their gonads from a lamppost and set alight forthwith. They are the traitors. Cameron is left with few options. Might as well have a referendum on whether or not the Human Rights Act should be passed. It's done. Campaign to get this godawful government out of power and then perhaps, just perhaps, something good can be achieved. Vote Tory because there is no other way. Look at how Brown and Captain Darling jumped when Brussel said sell the crappy RBS bank branches. Osborne said something similar earlier in the year and the Kaiser and the Captain laughed him down. Perhaps people should get their anger in the right direction. Or is everyone posting here a Labour goon?

pat

Clearly there is no chance of getting concessions from Brussels without some credible threat to them. I tend to agree that withdrawal of Power and money is the greatest threat we could pose, but bluffing won't work- there has to be a demonstrable will on the part of the British- including the government, elected representatives, and people to actually carry it out. And crucially that will must include the will to suffer short term disadvantages for the long term gain. Leaving will cause temporary disadvantages partly because any change always does, and partly because Brussels will make it difficult for us as long as they think we might change our minds. So don't expect a Norway style tade agreement for some time.
I believe that such a will can be built- and would be much easier for the government, who can baldly say that such and such an act is only being proposed because of Brussels- and leave it to a free vote; or introduce popular measures knowing that the EU will veto them.
There is of course zero chance of the current government doing any of that- nor the Lib Dems. So our current best hope is that Cam puts as much thought into provoking an out movement asw he did to de-toxifying the Tory brand.

Battle 2807

Well thats me off to UKIP then.
Either Mr Cameron does not understand what he is up against (repatriating powers from the EU -the EU doesnt DO repatriation in any way shape or form!) or he thinks the rest of us are just stupid.
Either way, he has lost my vote.
The next prime minister of the UK is going to be about as important as the leader of a local church council. Our votes are meaningless in the new post-Lison EU.

AliC

Can I remind you huffy people that Brown and Blair are the ones who didn't give us a referendum/choice over Lisbon, not Cameron.

I think Cameron will do his utmost to get us more wriggle room, but I keep going back and asking myself is the EU worth £50m a day? What does the UK actually get back? Apart from earache and red tape? If we stop paying our outrageous subs they might listen to us.

TomTom

which yesterday ordered Italian schoolchildren not to wear crucifixes in class)

NO. It did not. It was a case brought by an Atheist who objected to the Crucifix on the wall of the classroom.

Funnily enough this will cause enormous anger in Germany, especially Bavaria, since this is exactly what Adolf Hitler ordered in Bavarian Schools and it is funny how much in tune with modern lawyers he now appears

Pat

Re voting for UKIP- we mustn't lose sight of the fact that we need this government gone- preferably buried. A vote for UKIP would be a useful thing in a constituency where it wont let a europhile party in- and provided that no europhiles are let in some UKIP MPs would be useful. It would force the political establishment in general, and the politicos especially, to take the out movement seriously, and hopefully make Cam more likely to engineer an exit. But I'd hate to see this lot get back on 25% of the vote because UKIP split the Tory vote.

Judy

Cameron & the Tories can pass all the "Sovereign UK Law" bills in the world. They will not be worth the paper they're printed on. The European Court of Justice will strike them down in any judgement in which (as a consequence) British courts overrule EU law. Lord Denning recognised this decades ago when he said of the impact of EU law on British law:

an incoming tide. It flows into the estuaries and up the rivers. It cannot be held back

The UK's treaty obligations going back to our first entry into the EU in 1972 obliged us to accept EU rulings by the ECJ overruled British laws. We cannot legislate against that without reneging on our Treaty obligations and thus ceasing to be an EU member.

The very fact that Cameron proposes such a law shows he is either outrageously ignorant or is cynically proposing a sop to his Euro-sceptics that he knows perfectly well will never have any force or make any difference.

Bickers

We've been sold down the river by Labour, mainly to further Blair's ambition to be EU President.

Increasingly, we're been told what to do by unelected bureacrats in Brussels, so why we need to keep the number of MP's and civil servants we have baffles me - jobs for the boys of course.

The political system in the UK and Europe is rotten, corrupt and becoming increasingly anti democratic. Compared to the USA we're and Europe are a laughing stock! And to think the UK and its Parliament was the template the rest of the World used to base and build their democratic institutions on - pathetic!

JONNY

I think Jez should take a pill or something.

strapworld

Mr Lindsey talks about regaining our fishing grounds. With what may I ask? The French navy would blow us out of the water!

Then we have the idiots talking about voting for Ukip. They are a rag tag and bobtail outfit. Just look at the ghastly farage and his EU MEP's they have all had their noses in the trough and please tell me what they have done to bring about the demise of the EU? A token silly childish demonstrations. Farage talks loudly, but I was always taught that empty barrels make the most sound. The Ukip is made up of malcontents who are worse together than a hundred Bill Cash's in the conservative party. I know, like Mr Cole-above- I have been there and dont want anything to do with fourth rate politicians.

I do not like Cameron. He is a weak man. He is a Europhile. But I think events will force him to go for an IN or OUT referendum sooner than he wishes.

I also would not be surprised if Merkel throws in her hat for the job of President of the EU. Think about it. It is a natural position for a German!

This whole exercise will end in tears for Cameron and for the EU.

There will be massive public protests in this country when the full extent of the EU and its laws become apparant to everyone.

But Mr Fraser, you have now embarked on a journey to reject Cameron. I support you on that journey but we must also prepare for another few years of Brown, as a result!

Finally it is refreshing to note that Mr Fraser is able to write still. Perhaps he will look at that other piece of treachery - namely Immigration- you promised me!

Sir Graphus

All of you who want out, please think carefully, mainly about energy security. It's really, really important. 30 years of North Sea oil has made us forget about it.

Don't get me wrong, I think Lisbon is a terrible blow to democracy; the political class have really got 1 over us. I'm willing to give Dave and Hague a chance on this. There are a number of things that can be usefully done. Leaving the EU is something of a nuclear option, and needs to be thought about when we're all a little calmer.

hadrian

Well, if this won't tip one towards UKIP what will? Admittedly we must be tactical and not allow a split sceptical vote to let Labour slip in but in constituencies like mine where a Protest vote can mean something I shall noe certainly be casting for UKIP and the Tory can get the hell off my property if he dares enter. As for options- Cameron and Co know fine well there IS another option- get the hell out of the lumbering clumsy giant that is Brussels.

G Butler.

I cannot believe there are some people who believe voting UKIP will solve anything.
A vote for UKIP is nothing more than an indirect vote for Labour.

The only way to get change at the next election is to vote Conservative. Although I am sure there are those who would love to continue moaning from opposition, rather than being in a position of power to actually do something.

Cameron has laid out a solid approach to Europe, and it is far better than Labour. Also people should not forget that it will be the Economy & Public services which will decide the election.
More Brown debt and disaster, or fresh start under Cameron ? There are only two choices.

Liz Brown

Bliar and Brown are the real traitors and this should be shouted from the rooftops.........

DavidL

To misquote the Duke (who was rather good at dealing with Europe as I recall) your question may not frighten Brussels but it certainly frightens me!

teledu

A fine piece Mr Nelson.

As much as I detest Brown and NuLabour, maybe a slight zaNulab majority at the next election, brought about by the Tories losing seats because of a large UKIP vote might not be too bad an outcome.
It might just shake the compliant, spineless rump of the Conservatives into embracing real EU-sceptic policies and actually standing up for democracy and Britain.
A small zaNulab majority will have to introduce all the nasty measures that must surely follow and, maybe then face annihilation at the next election against a Conservative party that, having learned a lesson, will have policies to win back UKIP voters.
I sometimes read that the (relatively) anti EU stance taken by Hague when he was party leader was a vote loser, but this just doean't wash. It wasn't the EU stance that cost votes, it was simply that too many voters just didn't want them back in power whatever their policies.
I live in a Labour constituency with a small majority over the Conservatives. I'll vote Conservative at the next GE, but, unless they address the EU issue full-on, will never again. It'll be UKIP for me (assuming they've not been outlawed by Brussels by then).

Archie

I am so angry with the spineless Cameron! BNP for me.
@Forlonehope: we've been here before with the Germans. Bush senior was convinced by Jim Baker that Germany was THE European power.........until the invasion of Iraq resulted in some frantic White House back-pedalling!

JONNY

A brilliant speech, brilliantly delivered.
And the most robustly Euro-sceptic ever made by a main party leader.
Cameron wins hands down.
Only the suicidal nuclear diehards will object. But now left with nowhere to go.
UKIP down to less than 750,00 at the GE and bloody lucky to get that.
Game. Set. And Match to David.

Paul Hughes

We had this once before. It was messy, it was nasty, but the right of the English to legislate on their own behalf was established against the wishes of a supra-national organisation: the Catholic Church.

The EU elites have over-reached themselves on this occasion. They are driving more and more people into the OUT camp. I, too, am one of them. Cameron knows this and will use our contributions and remaining veto powers to force an accomodation. If he fails at this then the momentum really will be towards an "in or out" vote. Henry VIII didn't begin with an "I'm out" motion. He applied pressure. Only when these moves failed did he take the nuclear option. So must it be for Cameron. I happen to think that the EU will cave first, on this occasion.

Those of you who see UKIP as a viable option are deluded. All you risk is another five years of Brown. If he should get back in and if the maths showed that you enabled this to happen, I would personally hang you all as soon as the opportunity allowed.

The quickest way to lose the election is to appear as an extremist. The English are anti-EU but are even more anti an extremist of any persuasion. Cameron has a propaganda battle to win. He has to be seen to be the moderate. The EU and all their Quislings have, and will, prove themselves to be the extremists here.

Those who seek a loose association of states will winthe argument. As soon as the statist Europeans finally find that their social models are unsustainable, they will reach for market solutions. They will find the EU bureaucracy ranged against them. Then will they rail against the machinery set up to stifle their own interests. It won't be long. Ten, twenty years. They'll see. Our view wil prevail.

Scottish Cheeselog

What Fragmeister said (7.58pm). Never forget who really did this to us.

emil

teledu

Interesting post, at least you conclude that voting Conservative is still the best option in a general election. I would however personally campaign for UKIP in all future EU elections. Anyone who gives UKIP their vote next year is making a protest against the EU by indirectly voting for the Lib Dems/Labour, who were complicit in railroading us into the treaty that a referendum will not get us out of. Sad but true.

jock

I'm voting UKIP

Phil969

So the Tory party policy on Europe can be summarised "this far but no further". How many times have we heard that before? The Tories are trying to fool the electorate, and what is more dangerous, in the process they may begin to fool themselves, by selling this as a policy that will stop further integration.

Jez

JONNY;

I've calmed down compared to 8am this morning pal. That's when we all first heard about those British lads getting killed in Afghanistan.

These smug MP b*astards (my opinion) need a rocket up their arses.

They're having a laugh at our expense and more seriously, due to being utterly out of their depth, have completely become stuck in an insurgent quagmire that is the Afganistan Theatre.

They were even screaming at each other trying to score points whilst the Lib Dem leader was attempting to pay his respects to those killied yesterday, in PMQ's this afternoon.

A friend said to me today (and i think it sums the overall mood up);

These MP's should be rounded up, stuck on a boat, unloaded in the nearest port and then dropped off in Helmund. The Army (or Armies) should be brought home and all those MP's should then find their own way home, un-aided.

I bet they'd see things a little differently then.

They've sold us out. Again and again and again.

But that's just my opinion. And i feel better now i've told you about it.

If you want to laugh (or cry) yourself to sleep, then you might want to read this latest gem;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8343214.stm

They just keep them coming, don't they?

Night'.

AAE

Once again, Cameron displays all the craven failings of the professional consensual politician. Our new Prime Minister will be faced with a barrage of enormous existential battles, and consensus won't work (ask Obama). Cameron has no principle which he wouldn't sell for thirty euros, buckles at every hurdle for fear of upsetting his enemies, and neither he nor his clique engage with reality. As they say in South London, he needs to get out more. Heir to Blair? It's much, much worse than that. Heir to Heath. Let's stop reading the runes of Cameron's speeches with all the wishful thinking we did with the statements of P. O'Neill, and demand of him that he means what he says and says what he means. It's not much to ask. The only hope and comfort is that the longer we wait for the election, the more truthfully and ruthlessly exposed will be it's candidates.

Mills

What I don't understand is this:

It is hard work getting all the member states to agree the provisions of a treaty by which they will all be bound together. Agreed. But if Cameron wants to renegotiate British membership, all he would need is for each country to agree to vary their rights and obligations vis a vis Britain, not inter se. The principle that he would need to establish / entrench would be that not all member states would need to be on exactly the same footing. Having done that, he could easily persuade the other countries that it was not going to be that big a deal for them to accept that their relationship with the UK will need to change, though, in all other respects, their position in the EU will remain the same. I don't see why that should be so hard for him to accomplish. And if they are arsey about it, all he would need to do is to collect evidence of their intransigence, put that, together with the numerous abuses and inadequacies of the various European institutions, before the British people, and hold an in-or-out referendum, which would be won.

Nick

What would happen if we had a referenda?

1. It was promised.
2. Laws under the treaty wouldn't be UK laws.

daniel maris

It's not a credible position for the Tories to take. There is no reason why we shouldn't have a referendum on the treaty to settle our negotiating position and underline the supremacy of parliament, with an implied position regarding a future in or out referendum.

The UK should be an EEA member like Norway, Switzerland, and Iceland.

Would UK voters vote to leave the EU? I don't know. Probably not if we had another bent referendum like Heath's with weighted propaganda. But you can only offer people democracy and freedom, you can't make them take it.

However, at least the recent recession has perhaps inoculated us against claims about how certain things are "vital" to our economy. We used to be told all the time how essential a rampant financial sector was to our economic success. It now looks like an economic millstone around our necks, while those who concentrated on the real economy are coming out of recession much more quickly.

No doubt in an EU referendum we will be told that economic armageddon will follow withdrawal from the EU. But perhaps people will be less inclined to believe that. Also, we may find in future that mass immigration from within the EU becomes an issue of national importance that will have some effect.

I may well vote UKIP at the next general election, as I am not entirely sure what the point is of the Tories exactly.

Herbert Thornton

Fraser has written an alarming piece that deserves wide attention, but there are three errors in it, the first being in the headline. Did the proof readers miss them? Has proof reading been abandoned and replaced by a computer spell-check? Or is somebody at the Spectator deliberately sabotaging material that describes how the country is being hijacked into subjection to Europe?

Here are the three errors -

“There is only question that frightens Brussels…” - surely, only ONE question?

“a …referendum..that would accomplish nothing other then vent rage.” “then”? surely “THAN”?

“Thatcher wrought concessions from Brussels”. “wrought”? Surely – either “WRANG” or even “WRUNG”?

Ian Walker

Like others, I suspect you wrote this before you heard the speech.

As someone who was worried about the Conservative position on Europe, to the point of considering UKIP, I was utterly convinced. I expect I'm the target of today's missive, so no wonder it worked.

There seems to be an assumption that we cannot be without the EU. However, we were once part of the Roman and Viking empires, as many other countries were part of ours within living memory. Empires fall; it's seemingly in their nature.

The carrot of a cooperative Britain will be what tempts the eurocrats to accept Cameron's proposal. Remember that although they have a "vision" of a United Federal Europe, at heart they are craven power-hungry weaklings.

JohnT

Anyone would think, to judge by this, that Fraser had finally seen through Cameron.
One asks oneself - since it has been so obvious for so long - why has the Speccie only now seen the light?
Referendum on EU membership NOW!

Herbert Thornton

Cameron reminds me of is the story about an upper class girl who was sailing to some colony or other and who asked her mother - "Mummy what shall I do if some man is going to rape me?" And her mother's response was - "You must be brave my dear. Just lie back and think of England."

Cameron and that mother are obviously two of a kind.

Fergus Pickering

Kinnock bottled the job? Kinnock did no such thing. Kinnock took the money, and a bung for his wife and another for his son and (I believe) a fourth for his daughter. OUR money of course.

Laura Light

Would the EU really be frightened, if a referendum were held here and Britain ceased to be a member?
The only people to be frightened, would be British MEPs, who would lose their vast perks.
A 'true' Common Market could be formed, with the Scandinavian countries, Britain, Ireland, Poland, Hungary, Latvia, Estonia, even Holland, perhaps? Called Northern European Associated Trading, or NEAT.

George Woodhouse

Only 2 choices left now - UKIP or BNP. Wow Gordon/Tony what an achievement.

Johnny Norfolk

We all need to vote UKIP just once.

Merlyn

Brown has been smilingly banging on about "The New World Order" [see him on youtube].

Whilst we are worrying about the EU, there are bigger fish to fry... apparently.

There does not appear to be any end to some megalomaniac aspirations.

I smell revolution in the air, Cameron is toothless and the Mail/Express/Mirror readers are voting BNP, secretly of course.

THX1138

"After today, it seems they will not have much trouble from a Conservative government after all."

Good!

Any Colour but Brown

"Herbert Thornton
“Thatcher wrought concessions from Brussels”. “wrought”? Surely – either “WRANG” or even “WRUNG”?"

So, I have a wrung-iron fence, do I?

Roger Davies

If all of those defecting Tories actually do vote UKIP, including me, Cameron might get a big surprise. To argue that voting UKIP might let Labour in is really of no interest, the country is already bust.

Any Colour but Brown

VOTE UKIP !!!!!!!

............and put Labour back in for another 5 years of misery.

VOTE UKIP !!!!

.......and see Labour get another huge majority

VOTE UKIP !!!

.......... and be responsible for the final demise of Britain.

VOTE UKIP !!!!!

......... it will be YOUR fault

daniel maris

Herbert -

As for the typos - welcome to the age of the blog. People haven't got time for all that proof reading. If you want some up to the minute articles, that's the price you pay. The printed Spectator seems pretty well proof-read.

But since we are picking up on errors, surely the "advice to a maiden" was given by a mother to her daughter prior to her wedding night. Thinking of England, was thinking of the fine English progeny what would follow on the act. Rape was for the Victorians a "fate worse than death" and therefore something to be avoided by throwing oneself from the tower or some such, not to be accompanied by such Anglo insouciance.

Ex Tory

As large nett contributors, we have a big axe to wield. What are they going to do, refuse to sell us all those cars?

We also need to concentrate as a matter of urgency on being energy self sufficient.

theprofromdover

Has anyone ever read the Lisbon treaty? These things are always worded so poorly, you could drive a bus through any of the conditions.
I suggest Call-me-Dave locks his smartest and most devious minds in a room with a copy of this poisoned document until they come up with some get-outs.
(You might find that they probably spelled 'UK' wrong, or that Gordo signed in the wrong place)

RobC

It pains me to say it but Cameron has just virtually guaranteed a hung Parliament by not insisting on a referendum threatening to tear up a traitors treaty giving away our constitution which was not Brown's to give away without our consent in the first place.

Geoff Miller

How come Cameron's coming in for flak about not having a referendum?

he has no choice - it would be a waste of everyones time.

His mistake is that he has beem put on the defensive.

Brown and Blair lied to the British electorate and stitched us up.

He should come out fighting and pin the blame where it belongs.

True Bred Pomponian

Not only can I proudly say, "don't blame me I voted Conservative," but I can also say, "don't blame me I voted for David Davis."

JONNY

Well do I understand these rages Jez.
Everyday I start to boil over myself, and reach for the Blood Pressure Monitor!

It's just the utter frustration that we can't get some of these bastards into a room and have a real go at them.
And it all accelerated under Bliar.
He killed off parliament. He killed off his cabinet. Just down to a lounge in No 10 with a few cronies usurping the Royal Prerogative.

David Ossitt

Vote UKIP and Verity's prophecies will come to pass.

barbara

I never felt so let down as I did yesterday hearing Cameron's speech; angered, cheated, and disgusted were other feelings. This aritcle says it all, but all is not lost, we should have a referendum on whether we wish to remain within the EU, I for one would vote NO. I want out. It does cost to much money, is to dicitorial, and we lose the freedom of choice and thought. Now we hear Christians are not to wear cruxifixes round their necks in Italy within school. That will go down well within a Catholic country, I assume they will include every state? No, this needs to be stopped now, they have grand ideas well beyond the first intentions, better to remain for trade but full intergration No. We now need the press to decide whether they are with the British people or not, I think they should declare themselves and what they think. Its another 'dark hour of history' but we will win we have to if we wish to remain free like we used to.

Jez

Hi JONNY,

I can see a disaster on the cards for us if we were to unilaterally pull from the EU.

EVERYTHING of importance to compete in a competative market-place that i would need to purchase, is manufactured either in Spain, Germany, France..... or ever increasingly; even China.

You cannot just 'chop and change' something like this.

That's why BNP/UKIP's economic policies may be un-realistic.

Mind you. In comparision of BNP/UKIP's present economic policies, these would not have been deemed *as* unrealistic if you'd compared these to what's actually happened in 2009 Britain (on all fronts) to the electorate of 50 years ago.

You'd be laughed out of town as a 'crazy'.

Ian

One interesting point which no political commentator seems to have picked up on is Cameron's reference to Turkey regarding future EU expansion. His willingness to welcome Turkey into the EU is in total contrast to current French and German positions.

Jez

Ian,

I submitted a similar comment to Melanie Phillips' latest Article. I don't think it made it.

It's a matter of numbers only.

53 million Muslims + 72 Million in one 'hit' and when you take the demographic decline of Europe's population to the massive increase (due to EU expansion East, immigration and birth rate) of the Muslim population, then things are going to be a little more Bosphorus orientated.

Turkey is secular. Well, so was Iran once.

Whether deemed alarmist or not; this is the beginning of the end for the old order.

As an opinion.

Fergus Pickering

No, Any Colour But Brown, you have a wrought iron railing. The iron was wrought, that is it was worked on rather than cast. Mrs Thatcher wrung or wrested concessions from unwilling foreigners. Perhaps, perhaps, she wreaked havoc (rather than wrought, though the point may be moot).

I agree with your analysis, by the way.

Verity

Headline: There is only one question that frightens Brussels.

Alternative headline: There is only one question that frightens Fraser Nelson. That is: Where is your promised blog on Neather?

EU autist

Thank heaven for the French and their way with words - we can now all quite happily continue to pray for the referendum on EU membership, in or out, while giving mutiple renditions of the one-armed flautist.

Peter S

The way forward for Cameron should be to make a cast-iron promise to the electorate that he will call a second general election after two years in office IF it is widely perceived that the Tories are failing to repatriate substantial powers to the UK. He could even name the date now.

George Miller

"After today, it seems they will not have much trouble from a Conservative government after all"
At the '05 GE, the margin of defeat in around 30 English seats was less than the number of UKIP votes, so if you accept the premise that all UKIP votes come from Conservatives, then UKIP cost them around 30 seats. That number will increase massively at this GE.
On reflection, I'm not so sure a hung parliament would be a bad thing. Our country is being turned into a police state anyway, so there's little difference between having a Labour government & the Conservative one currently on offer...

AngloWelshDragon

Let's be realistic. There is no point having a vote on Lisbon because Labour have signed up to it and we are now committed.

It is hard enough to get people to come out and vote at GEs let alone motivating them to turn out and vote on a fait accompli. A 90% victory for the anti-Lisboners won't cut much ice with Brussels if only 20% of the population voted.

Then there is the cost of the pointless exercise in these straightened times to consider. Cameron would be accused of a massive waste of tax payers money.

As for those of you deserting the tories for UKIP. What a great idea - split the right wing vote and give us another 5 years of this neo-Soviet abortion of a party and its gurning cretin of a leader! Thanks a bunch!

Let's give Cameron a chance to negotiate or threaten his way to a return of our sovereignty. If that fails we have still got the In/Out referendum in our armoury.

Remember, the next Conservative intake will be packed full of euro-sceptics. This issue isn't done and dusted by a long way.

Wilfred

How could the threat of an "in-or-out" referendum "terrify" Brussels? They would know that Cameron would never hold one, because the British people would never vote for such an extremist position, and would punish the Tories for being so reckless as to flirt with extremism.

Sorry to see that the normally sane Fraser has gone over to the loony side.

AngloWelshDragon

Thinking back over this year's postings could Jez clarify hether he is actually switching his vote to UKIP from the Tories or from the BNP?

I don't get why is everyone beefing on about Cameron anyway? This is a Blair/Brown stitch up - they promised a referendum and we didn't get one. Cameron only promised one if it hadn't already passed into law which, sadly, it now has.

Someone above (sorry, can't remember who) said Brussels has never repatriated powers to anyone. Could that be because no one ever asked while holding a £7.8bn big stick?!

Jez

@ AngloWelshDragon,

It's going to have to be BNP at the moment.

Geographical on the ground realities dictate this.

The white's only thing / immediate withdrawl from EU i don't agree with, although i'm as against the complete annihilation / denial of the existence of the indiginous British by Nulab/Cons/LibDem.

I'm here. I'm British. I'm white. So what.

If your not white, then just as much; So what.

Everything that is me, my family or my friends doesn't deserve to be 'taken out' just because some over-educated ex-students agreed we're in the way or (somehow) we all responsable for Slavery etc.

They can get lost.

What's happening with the UKIP at the moment may have a bearing on a lot of things though soon for quite a lot of the politically disenfranchised, maybe.

greenslime3

Dear, oh dear! Off you all go again.

The Treaty is unstoppable. It will be enacted on 1 December (I understand) and there is zilch that the Tories or anyone else can do about it. Someone please explain to me what the point is of dying in a ditch for such a lost cause.

Cameron's main focus must now be to get voted into government - preferably with a big majority. Then he can start waving his stick at the EU. Until he is the prime minister, he can't do anything about anything.

The more he keeps his hand close to his chest the better; Moron and his gang of incorrigible highwaymen have plenty of previous regarding theft of ideas and ambush! The time to show his hand is at the election - and let the electorate decide.

If people want a better country than the mess this lot have made it, they'd do well to keep that front and centre of their minds, because more of the Brown Ultimatum will only serve to drive this country further and further into the mire.

Keep whittering and whining about non-subjects - things which can't be changed (for now anyway) and you risk undermining our opportunity to be rid of the pestilence which currently sits on the government benches of the House of Commons - and will also risk pushing many of those who think that they are being let down by the government but see no hope from the Conservatives either to vote for the lunatic fringe. And we don't want that, that would be worse, although only slightly, than keeping Brown at the tiller.

Ex-Tory voter

Imagine the scenario; it's 1940, the bullying, undemocratic European dictatorship has crushed all opposition and is facing us just across the Channel. Did we just shrug our shoulders and say, oh well, it's inevitable we'll be swallowed up, we can't do anything about it because we can't go it alone? Well, clearly we would have done if Cameron had been in power!

Walter Ellis

Years ago, I worked for Andrew Neil, now Publisher of the Spectator, at the re-vamped, re-awakened European, where I was dismayed to discover that he hated everything about the European Union and cared only to lecture the Continental Powers on their lack of good sense and capitalist "vision". The paper closed shortly afterwards due to lack of interest. You, Sir, strike me as a man after Neil's own heart. You regard Europe purely as a holiday destination and "living museum". The fact that the EU in general has a higher standard of living than the UK, and a fairer distribution of wealth, does not impress you. Nor are you prepared to acknowledge the superb continental rail system, the high standard of universal health care, or the robust, go-ahead nature of Europe's manufacturing sector. As for the euro – fast overtaking the dollar as the world's preferred reserve currency – you would rather die than exchange your sacred pound for this mess of potage. Well, you will live and you will learn. I, for one, am delighted that the Lisbon Treaty has been adopted. I look forward to the day, however distant, when we finally embrace our European identity.

BOO

"embrace our European identity" Speak for yourself, buster. I'm not european, never was and never will be. I'm British, and have been for as long as any other indigene. Furthermore, I don't like invaders and being subjugated by foreign powers, any more than my ancestors did.

Just because they walk in and announce that they're the law, and therefore we must obey them means nothing ... except that they don't know a logical fallacy when they see one.

Peter From Maidstone

I'm English and teach my children that they are English, even though I am glad to be 3% French. The rest is all native stock all the way back. I am not European. (That doesn't mean I don't believe that immigrants cannot become English, but most are not encouraged to do so - and many have no interest in doing so). But I am English, the son and grandson of Englishmen who fought in two World Wars to preserve our native culture and heritage, and who stand in a long line of Englishmen who had to put their lives on the line against a Europe that always wished to encroach on English liberties. That we have allowed so much to be so easily thrown away does not diminish one jot the value of what we had and what we should fight to regain.

I like to go on holiday in Europe, I have European friends. I have friends in the US and Canada, in Egypt, India, Australia and all around the world. But I am English. My identity is English. My children are English and I want them to have an England to be more proud of than I presently am.

James Newbound

Someone above wrote: "Those of you who see UKIP as a viable option are deluded. All you risk is another five years of Brown"

Indeed not. We risk nothing, because DC risks another 5 years of Brown!

It is a risk he can eliminate very easily indeed, and therefore he would be a fool not to promise the people of this country a say on the one policy that UKIP offers.

Verity

Peter from Maidstone - An affecting post. But your identity is being leached out of you by both major parties.

David Cameron is glaringly, in neon lights, not the man to save Britain for the owners of these islands.

Sixty-three per cent

"A new PoliticsHome poll has found that almost two thirds of the public would like to have a referendum on renegotiating the UK’s relationship with the EU following the signing of the Lisbon Treaty by Czech President Vaclav Klaus."

Suck on that, Mr Cameron.

Ernest Warrender

THERE WILL BE A REFERENDUM AND NOT EVEN "DAVE" CAN AVOID IT . . . .IT WILL BE IN MAY (OR EARLIER IF THE PRINTED MONEY RUNS OUT) AND THAT REFERENDUM WILL BE CALLED A GENERAL ELECTION AND PEOPLE WILL VOTE FOR UKIP. THAT IS THE ONLY REFERENDUM THE SOCIALIST STATE OF EUROPE WILL UNDERSTAND

Ernest Warrender

Isee BAA have got to sell airports and Nat West have to sell the good bits . . .who says??? EUROPE . .. .AND TO WHOM???? Europe
Read the poem written years ago
Essential Services

Having read the morning paper
from the 16th day of May
Where the major topic for discussion
Was drought conditions holding sway

I went away to Spain
Feeling sad at missing out
But the weather God had heard my prayers
And sorted out the drought

Like Noah’s little escapade
It poured cascades of rain
But still the water companies
Insist shareholders gain

Its odd, essential services
Are owned from foreign grounds
Whilst national assets leak away
In litres and in pounds

Our Erstwhile leaders have done a deal
Our water, power have all been loaned
To profiteering foreigners
How strange our shit is still state owned

Tapestry

The EU has been put on notice by Cameron. Laugh if they like, with all the cards in their hands. But as someone on CH pointed out, Ghandi had even less in his armoury and yet won Indian independence.

See things more simply, Fraser. Power is much simpler than law. If your people don't consent to your rule, the truth will out.

Cameron need only nurture the process, and not even be its primary agent. Events will take over. Cameron can bide his time. His stall is ready.

Verity

Slim Jim writes: "young Cameron is playing the long game, and he doesn't want to scare the horses too much."

As in, oh, "keeping his powder dry"? You know what? Cameron doesn't have any powder. He doesn't have any mental amunition. And he doesn't need it, because he intends to go along with the programme. That is why he must never be allowed into office.

A hung Parliament? Fine. Once we're rid of Dave, we can demand another election and get a Tory in. Dave is going to hemorrhage Tory votes. And, no matter how he bends the knee, socialist voters won't vote for him; they've already got their own traitors with a track record of treachery. Why try a new boy?

Susan Paynre

I totally agree with the writer's first paragraph. Britain has no other options