Why the Euro-sceptics are quietly confident

IH

If he doesn't get what he wants - I'm going for a threat of an In/Out before 2014.
With the EU caving in.

Verity

"Why the Euro-sceptics are quietly confident"

Why? For reasons of insanity?

John H

Exactly - so the troublemakers and publicity seekers should hold their tongues for now. Voting UKIP achieves nothing as an alternative.

cumwad

OUT OUT OUT I will vote OUT of Europe

Rob

Agreed. The EU will not give away significant power or else unravel the treaty and have lots of other nations want an opt out. the EU has all the power it wants now so is intent on wielding and consolidating it. The new Tory government will be overwhelmingly Euroskeptic so unless Cameron can get them to accept the EU as our government, which he is not inclined to do and couldn't anyway, he will have to have a referendum, in or out.

Chris

Quietly confident? Who are the people screaming their heads off all over the interwebs then?

Sue MV

I doubt that people like me are being quietly confident. The Lisbon Treaty becomes a legal document on the 1st December, I believe.

We are just waiting to see what the EU has in store for us.. if they begin to impose even greater draconian laws than we already have or really take the p*** like impose direct taxation on wages, then you haven´t seen the wrath of a Eurocynic yet.

Roadrunner

Cameron should be starting with an in/out referendum I don't think the voters should have to wait five years, this could be another cast iron guarantee he's no longer trustworthy and thats why I and I suspect plenty of others will be voting UKIP.Sarkozy has made it plain their will be no change and by 2014 we could have The Napoleonic Code and the Euro thrust upon us and theirs nothing Cameron can do about it.

Watt Tyler

Firstly, he won't get the powers back that he needs to because the "colleagues" don't want to have to spend years renegotiating. When he doesn't, because he thinks that we will forget whatever he has promised (should I say, hinted at), he will find some other excuse not to have a referendum. The Conservatives are committed to the UK being a part of the EUSSR. Being Euro-sceptic does not equate to wanting out of it. Which MPs have you spoken to. Let us know, then we can evaluate the degree of their "Euro-sceptism". If you want to be "in Europe, but not run by Europe" (an oxymoran, by the way) then you wouldn't want to upset the boat. My suspicion is that the so called "Euro-sceptic Conservative MPs" are keeping quiet because of the grace and favour their position of our provincial assembly will afford them.

Conservatives who want out of the EU have not been quiet. You call it "mouthing off" which shows the way you feel about them. Thanks for that insight, Forsyth.

Frank P

John H

Oh! How you would like the 'troublemakers' to 'hold their tongue', so that Dhimmitude proceeds apace, no doubt.

You have a very rude awakening coming. We ain't gonna hold our tongues and if the true blue Tory MP's have any sense (supposing there are any left) they won't hold theirs either. You put your tongue where you like, buddy; keep it away from me, though, as it seems to have been nestling very close to Davey-boy's fundament, if not indeed penetrating it.

Cameron's actions and words simply cannot be labelled under CT (canny tactics). Use the next pigeon-hole, John H; it's marked with a similar acronym CT (craven treason).

Although treason was expunged from the statutes by the current mob for obvious reasons; it is still a moral outrage to any true English(wo)man.

James

Does Lisbon let us leave?.
Could the EU not issue a directive or whatever, saying no member can leave. (especialy if you fork out most of the cash for the CAP). This is after all a self-amending treaty.

Dorothy Wilson

It will be before 2014. A crisis point will come around the euro - see the comments from David Marsh of the London & Oxford Group at the seminar organised by Open Europe [www.openeurope.org.uk/events.]

He argues that the only way for the euro to survive is ever-closer union, which "will be pushed through by the back door" and with German rules.

Some countries will not be able to cope and are thus likely to have to leave the euro. Others may well begin to realise just what they have let themselves in for.

It is going to be very, very messy.

strapworld

Verity.

It is called HOPE and that is all we have! Like you I have lttle or no confidence in Cameron. BUT I cannot see the EU capitulating on any of the measures Cameron has said he wishes to renegotiate.

I also cannot see the Tory party or the Country accepting a watered down weak acceptance of a small crumb given to Cameron by the EU- as they bought off Harold Wilson!.

So I have to HOPE that we will get that referendum IN or OUT earlier than 2014.

Mind you i would have thought the stronger position for Cameron to adopt would have been to hold a referendum on "These are the measures I wish to re-negotiate. Do I have your support! Yes or No!

A large majority in favour and the EU would have the message.

It is a fine line. But I think it could work.

DavidL

The sceptics have won. After Lisbon no europhile has any credibility in this country and they will never be trusted again. We are either facing substantial repatriation of powers or withdrawal. The europhiles should hang their heads in shame.

oldtimer

I agree with the view that Cameron is a Eurosceptic in the sense he is not a federalist. I also agree that unless he gets repatriation of powers then an in/out referendum will be on the agenda. It could be the big election after the next manifesto issue. It would then be "make up your mind" time as much for the Brussels bureaucracy and other members states as for the British electorate. If it happens, it would make it one of the more interesting general elections that I`ve voted in over the past 50 years. I just hope I survive that long to participate.

My guess is that, when all the huffing and puffing is done, the Brussels bureaucrats and other EU states will not want to risk an in/out referendum when the time comes.

On reflection I think that Cameron`s speech was very well crafted.

JONNY

'Why? For reasons of insanity?'

Or sanity that passes insane comprehension?

Trafalgar

Is it really so certain that a majority of voters would choose to leave the EU in an In or Out vote?

I'm not so sure. I think people who bother to vote are wise enough to know that the question of whether Britain should remain in the EU is entirely different from a vote to adopt the euro - or to accept a European treaty.

All major parties - including the Conservatives - and just about every media outlet would push the case for remaining a full member.

Millions of Brits holiday abroad, millions of Brits are linked via family or heritage to other Europeans, and millions of Brits connect to other European companies as part of their daily working lives. They vaguely accept the benefits of membership and are nowhere near as excited about the issue of Europe as Coffeehousers.

One thing has been shown by polls over the last 20 years: The more the Tories obsess about Europe in public, the more voters will stay away from them. And very few will turn to UKIP - which let's face it amounts to a one-man protest party.

Koakona

I remember sitting in a Tory party officers meeting when I was a DCM during the leaders debates. I (young and foolish) believed Cameron would solve our woes and win us an election. I don't think I was wrong, but boy was I wrong to believe he was a Conservative, I wish we had voted for David Davis!

No longer in the party, and having followed the coffee house (shamefully without posting) I think I will throw my weight behind Verity's belief that DC is a slimy Blair mk II.

The only way the shower in Whitehall or the spineless traitors on the opposition benches will take note of the popular anger of the British people to this surrender to Paris and Berlin will be when we storm the HoP en masse!

The right barely ever rallies in the streets, but now it is our turn, I call for mass protests in every major British city to tear down the regime of treason!

TGF UKIP

Sorry James, but I for one am not falling for this piece of hocus pocus. We all know you to be an arch Cameroon and this has the strong smell of The Speccie, as the Clique's house magazine, spinning out a bromide designed to sweep Euro Dave's climb down and broken promise under the carpet for the time being.

Sorry matey, but you and The Clique will have to do better than that and here's a suggestion for Euro Dave - why not just stick to your commitment and let Ken Clarke sod off to the 8.10 spot on the Today programme.

Can't say you weren't warned Euro Dave, riding two horses would take a far better man than you.

Hawkeye

James said: "Does Lisbon let us leave?."

Apparently it does. I have been told that it contains a section that specifically addresses leaving, although how anyone found that in the deliberately confusing morass that is the Lisbon Treaty is beyond my understanding.

Anyway - see http://www.euractiv.com/en/future-eu/treaty-lisbon/article-163412

under the section "Key Institutional Innovations" where a single bullet point says "an exit clause making it possible for members to leave the EU."

So. There it is...

Hawkeye

Trafalgar said: "Millions of Brits holiday abroad, millions of Brits are linked via family or heritage to other Europeans, and millions of Brits connect to other European companies as part of their daily working lives."

The same is true of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan, India and China. Yet we seem to manage to bump along with them without tying ourselves up in political integration with them.

So why can't it be done with the EU?

I'll stick to my Better Off Out position.

emil

Trafalgar

Indeed. I remember 1975 when the political classes and media all lined up behind a YES vote, and remain proud to have voted NO.

I don't know if Cameron can change things, but two things guarantee him my vote;
1) he is the only leader who can dispose the traitorous, useless Brown.
2) it will make the scratched record named Verity extremely pissed off.

DavidDP

Politics is the art of the possible. The Europhobes forget that at their peril. An uncompromising position will lead to pro-European Labour governments.

Then again, perhaps that's what they actually want.......

Ex-Tory voter

"[T]he Euro-sceptics are quietly confident"? Not this one isn't - I'm bl**dy angry at being sold down the river and listening to Dave mouth a load of 'assurances' that he'll never be able to deliver makes me incandescent. The only question now is "in or out?" and I'll be voting 'out'.

.... .... ......

If Cameron had told us at the press conference he was going into the next election on an in or out vote we would have been over the moon.........but!.........
The pro Europeans would have had a field
day.He would have been out BEFORE the election because everyone from Labour/the European politicians to the entire media would have been peddling their scare stories about how Britain would be SOOOOOOOO
out of the loop, how TERRRRRRIBLE things would happen.Your granny would die because of lack of nurses and doctors, your house would be un inhabitable because of lack of tradesmen.
By the left quick march,do we not have our OWN people to train up? Are we REALLY so under populated that we need to import PEOPLE?
Cameron did what he had to do NO more NO less.

The Gateless Gate

No democracy, no trust.

How complicated does it have to get before the politicians understand this simple point?

Until then the Tories can be as quietly confident as they wish - sensible people will vote UKIP.

Noa Zrk

Following the new Tory policies outlined this week, those who believe that the Tory party will provide a trenchant, no nonsense UK perspective to the EU, asserting the primacy of our interests and laws and pragmatically withholding money to secure this are now primarily to be found in the secure ward of a small cottage hospital in the Outer Hebrides.

Barbara

He cannot get them back and why should we allow him four years to decide what he wants or is forced to act. We have the vote and we should use it to vote for those who will give us the choice, four years is a long time and a lot of damage could be done by the EU in that time, immigration for instance, we could be forced to accept thousands more. No, I want it within the 7 months left before the next election, Cameron has the chance well before then to act if he fails then others can take up the fight, and god willing the media and the press will engage with the the people and help us in the fight. Nothing is done till one has tried. I refuse to accept the monster over the water I want my country back and the freedom that many have fought and died for. Nothing else is acceptable.

Amadeus Plonquer

The lastest polls show that 61% of the British people don't think its worth what we pay to be in the EU. Yet the Speccie writers continue to insinuate in their writings that we are somehow a small minority.

You're not fooling anyone, matey.

There WILL be a referendum before 2014. Moreover the LEADERSHIP the UK will show on this issue will be emulated across Europe.

TomTom

Wasn't it these same Eurosceptics that made Cameron Leader when he pledged to withdraw from the EPP ?

Why should anyone take them seriously ? As those of the streets of Leipzig said in 1989..."WE ARE THE PEOPLE"......we must decide

.... .... ......

Ex Tory voter.
The majority of people of all political leanings would vote out if given the chance.
Like you I am angry at not getting a say on Europe,but I would prefer to vote for someone who;
a.Is under no illusion that the treaty is now LAW and the ONLY thing he can do now is re negotiate certain things.
b.Sulk if we don't get what we want and THEN have an in/out referendum.
As opposed to, wasting my vote
'protesting'so enabling the ACTUAL traitors back into power,because THEY had succeeded in tearing the public apart.
Labour KNEW this would put the Tories in an IMPOSSIBLE position and the public in their wisdom will do exactly what Labour
intended.they have managed to split the Tory vote.
Better the devil you know, right?
Before Cameron, or anyone for that matter can do anything...they HAVE to get elected and they HAVE to have a WORKING majority. Something all 'ex Tory voters' have to think long and hard about....ME INCLUDED. While we are UNDERSTANDABLY angry we also have to reflect on the outcome of our voting choices. Anger = reaction.
Do we react against the party who had their hands tied by another, or do we react against the party that acted in a spiteful,nasty,traitorous way?

Archie

"Quietly confident"? Is that why Ben Brogan referred to "heaving post-bags"?

.... .... ......

Barbara...what if your greatest fears become a reality in the months before the election?
You and a few other millions vote either UKIP or BNP.Another few million vote Lib Dem/Green.Another few vote Labour?
No party have a majority to change anything and two of the parties named would join forces and NOTHING would change.
Do people on here actually know what they are on about?
You are all quite as mad as Gordon Brown.
You know nothing of politics, how it works and even less about the Lisbon treaty and it's meaning.
Media induced lunacy.
I have looked at many so called Tory leaning sites and they are so in favour of a continual Labour government.All Brown and Co have to do is sit back and let you lot do their election campaign for them...A guaranteed fourth term.
Labour WILL sort the country out and she will prosper...sadly not in your utopian way of being all powerful and self governed.
Britain has a purpose in Europe.
Where else are the people so compliant and believe their government was elected by THEM,to represent THEM,a democraticaly elected government can do as it pleases.
We are now an official dump for the other twenty seven EU member states to be rid of their 'undesirables'.We have been for the last decade.
So you lot go right ahead and vote for the other parties.It will, I guarantee you make a difference.It will guarantee Cameron is defeated and Labour/Europe get what they want.
Brown,Mandelson,Blair,Milliband etc will be over there lapping up the glory. So why should they give a fig?

Vulture

DavidDP: 'POlitics is the art of the possible' - you quote that phrase with apparent approval. Do you know whose motto it was? (The title of his memoirs) None other than RAB Butler, the flabby-faced appeaser who wanted to surrender to Hitler in 1940 and spent the rest of his shabby careet selling the pass to Liebour. Its very appropriate that you adopt it as your slogan, since your hero Dave is the heir to Blair - and the heir to RAB.

The politicians I admire : Churchill, Thatcher, Kemal Ataturk, Clemenceau - were, in contrast to Butler, people who made the political weather, rather than swingiong to every passing breeze. Your dripping wet brand of Cameron Conservatisim has reduced this country to a toilet.

JONNY

Tory Euro-sceptics aren't the only ones.
A poll released yesterday announced that 48% of Labour voters want a referendum also.
Euroscepticism is alive and kicking. And crossing the party picket lines in droves.

Barbara

To ... ... ...
A name would have been better to address - however, you say my free vote may let in Labour again, no it won't for there are thousands who will not vote again for Labour, the Conservatives well they may find their vote split but the bnp vote will be strong because they will take the labour vote enmass, I would predict they will be a minority after this election now we know they are traitors, spies and liars. At least the bnp has spoken with truth, knows the difficulties ahead and knows it cannot do it alone, Ukip must also learn that they too will have to join others in this fight, its what the people want they should remember that. Its not impossible, this country came together before in 1939-1945 and we can do so again, trust in the people for there is no better, not political parties. There lies the secret of success, the will of the people.

Ex-Tory voter

"I would prefer to vote for someone who;
a.Is under no illusion that the treaty is now LAW and the ONLY thing he can do now is re negotiate certain things"

.... .... ...... (blimey, that's H H and nearly an error correction in Morse!), the problem with what Cameron says is that the other 26 (soon, no doubt to be more) members won't let us renegotiate things, so any "assurances" are meaningless and designed to do what Boney Tony did - deflect opposition by some specious "Third Way". I've had enough of triangulation, frankly and not to put too fine a point on it, I have lost trust. Enough people out canvassing and putting the points across can make a difference (it's been done before). Disillusioned Labour voters will probably either switch to Lib Dems or the BNP - there isn't much you can do about those who are knee-jerk voters because their family has always been Labour. Some, perhaps, will vote tactically, depending on how strongly they feel about the mess that's been made. It's about time ALL parties currently in power were made aware that they only govern by the will of the people and they ignore the wishes of the electorate at their peril. There are, after all, more of us than there are of them.

2trueblue

What the UK has to learn is that we do not have to gold plate all the directives from the EU, and that is one thing a new government do. We are the 2nd biggest contributor, maybe we could be late with our payments, after all we are now below Italy in the ranks!

As stated before, the electorate were not interested when the tories went to the polls on the EU, and latterly on immigration. Just shows that the tories were ahead of the curve and the eletorate were too complacement to take either seriously.

I do not agree with everything Cameron says at the moment, but fail to find any other party that I would trust, so am not prepared to get sidetracked by personalities just for the sake of venting my anger about something that we can not have because Labour sold us down the river.

Labour are the ones that denied us our vote and they actually had it within their power and it was a manifesto promise! Nice work now to try and accuse the tories of backtracking.

You can talk about snake oil etc., just remember who has been in power and sold it to you. Brown, Mandy, Balls, etc.

Mr Thompson

There's just one problem with this plan. A British government won't have the budget, the resources or the power to hold a referendum in this country after 2014. They'll be put in charge of emptying the bins efficiently and sharpening pencils. To say that they'll have the powers of a county council is stretching it a bit. A student's union would be a more apt comparison.

roman lee

there is a lot of nonsense spoken about this treaty being set in stone. once cameron starts talking money and rebates you will see where this gutless bunch in brussels will line up the offers of repatiating laws to uk only. they have done it twice before it was even ratified.