Shaming allegations that reveal the full horror of the Iraq war

strapworld

The story is horrific. So was the story regarding the Lancashire Regiment in the Mirror...that proved false did it not?

Is one innocent before being found guilty?

I find the release of this story, at this time, highly suspicious.
Let allegations be treated as such and left for a full investigation.I am sick of the media doing the hatchet job, implicating our troops and when the whole issues are investigated they are never as bad as first alleged.

One last thing. Bad things happen in war. To our men and women and to theirs. They always will and it is about time you journalists entered the real world.

Let these allegations be investigated, then let the comments and columns be written.

I just mention again that I find this story, released at this time highly suspicious.

Jez

You people just don't get it.

Nevermind your 'cornflakes'.

What about those in these theatre's- you know, on our side?

Undermining their safety you are, with this- at this time especially.

Unbelievable.

Get back to your bloody cornflakes.

Colin

"This is in no way an apology and the victims must have justice. But as liberation became occupation, and goodwill degenerated into insurgency, and the full nightmare of fighting a murderous but invisible enemy became apparent, it is little surprise that some overstretched soldiers found solace in brutality."

So, sitting in the snug comfort of West London, you've already decided that these allegations are true. Get a grip, you gullible idiot.

Hereford

I find the timing of this revalation quite interesting. Call me paranoid, but it seems a perfect time to release something other than wonderful about our troops, just when the nation is up in arms about the obscene concept of desk jockeys getting bonuses while the troops bleed to death for want of equipment.

As I say, call me paranoid...

John Bowman

Lesson: don't get invaded.

Frank P

Have you stopped beating your wife? And how many shysters can dance on the head of the pin that is being used to stitch up squaddies with these copy-cat allegations? Stop spreading malicious allegations that have no basis of evidence yet and are as likely to be attempted compensation rip-offs from an easy-touch labour government as a true bill.

You weren't so keen to deal with the Neather allegations were you?

Yow Min Lye

Shame moreover on a bumbling, utopian government that used our servicemen and women as IED fodder - despatching them off to this seething cauldron of ethnic and religious rivalries ill-equipped and under-resourced in order to topple an already semi-emasculated dictatorship without having anything but the vaguest of clues what it would put in its place; or whether the resulting chaos would actually end up strengthening an even more formidable enemy of Western interests in the Middle East: Iran.

Mirtha Tidville

What I find truely appalling is the depths that the disgusting Shiner stoops to in order to enhance his reputation and business...You dont have to dig far in places like Basra where people will make all sorts of allegations knowing just how soft a financial touch this useless goverbment are...

Patrick

How strange that this should surface now.

I hope that these allegations are false but sadly as we recruit from society then we reflect society and there are some pretty nasty individuals out there.

A friend of mine recently said that he would not be at all suprised if further negative stories and allegations over the Army surfaced in an attempt by the Government to get back at the Army and erode the high opinion that the vast majority of the population hold them in.
They wouldn't stoop that low would they?

Dixon

As Kurz would mumble "The Horror!"

I believe veterans who say war IS horror.

I also heed the logic of Kurz: if war is horror then every means is legitimate to shorten it.

That is my opinion. Once we commmit our people to an action that is beyond the realms of normal, law governed daily existence, ie, war, then, by definition, the rules of normal life no longer apply.

Moreover, why should I give a damn what happens to Iraqis.

curbishly

Is this the same Phil Shiner who made the sexual allegations (Rape) against British soldiers in Kenya?

And was found to be unsubstantiated?

Walsingham's Ghost

@ Strapworld

"The story is horrific. So was the story regarding the Lancashire Regiment in the Mirror...that proved false did it not?"

You beat me to it...

There are times, Mr. Blackburn, when you are merely irritating but every so often, you show yourself to be a complete **** - I fear this post is such an occasion.

WG

Austin Barry

"There is bound to exaggeration and fabrication among some of these claims;"

A new cry no doubt echoes across the souks:

"Compo Akbar! Compo Akbar!"

mac

Phil Shiner. Lawyer. Makes money from these cases, do you think?

Your piece teeters on the edge of sanctimony, DB.

mitch

Oh grow up!! this is a war and we play to win.Talk to people who have been there, they will tell you things you cant imagine.
Just be aware if you voted for Blair then you agreed with all this and more that hasn't come out yet so shut up or try him for war crimes.

Frank P

It is becoming more and more clear that the only blogger on the Spectator site who consistently gets an overwhelming ratio of supportive posts is Melanie Phillips. What is this Spectator policy of pissing off its regular readers designed to do? F Nelson did nothing to explain it in his self-advocacy today. Perhaps the ubiquitous Andrew Neil could have a shot at at justifying it?

logdon

Has anyone seen any jihad beheading videos from Iraq?

If not, my advice is don't.

They portray the most gloating, gratuitous and deliberately slow drawn out cruelty I've ever seen and the images stay in the mind for days.

And remember these are muslim on muslim. These people must have attention seeking sadism coursing through their very dna.

Get off the bloody high horse. This is war and whatever we do pales into insignificance compared with what they inflict on their own people.

Alan Lawson

Mr Shiner has a vile track record at using public (i.e. taxpayer's) money to search out people willing to have a pop at getting 'compo' in this manner. He tried it in Kenya, and it was soon clear that the claims were nonsense, although I doubt Mr S lost any money in the process.

And as for "sexually conservative muslim sensiblities" - well, you've obviously never been to either Iraq or Afghanistan, then. Ask any Soldier with recent experience of either Country's Army about "Man Love Thursday"! It opened my eyes and, to put it mildly, I've been around a bit.

DavidDP

If true, it's deeply shaming. There really needs to be an inquiry.

The difference between us and them is that we are fighting for civilisation, freedom and democracy. The cause is fatally undermined by such behaviour if true.

Watt Tyler

I was hoping that people would see that this piece of journalism (ahem) was just so wrong in so many ways that they wouldn't leave a comment. I thought that it didn't warrant any effort on my part, at least.

Frank P

David DP

If untrue it's even more deeply shaming that a shyster would peddle anti-British propaganda without proof, as he has done in the past. But oh! How you would like to to be true.

Edmund Jerk

David DP:
Yes we really do look civilised, don't we!? Oh how those Iraqi prisoners, after being tortured and raped, must dream about the coming of Magna Carta and McDonalds! Freedom, individual liberty and democracy - all genuinely precious ideals that don't seem to be working out well here - but who cares about that for Britain!? Instead we can force democracy on the Arabs at gunpoint, because the armchair hawks in Washington and Westminster know best!

I really do look forward to more of "the cause" especially in Afghanistan, which, last I heard in never-never-land was about to become the Sweden of the East.

Mike Kingscott

So, the MOD has come forward with this information? The same MOD that is getting flak for being paid £47 million in bonuses? Can you not see a correlation between the two?

JohnAnt

How can any 'allegations' about anyone be 'shaming'? In law a trial must end with a guilty verdict before anyone is shamed. If the allegations prove false, the complainant is shamed.
Is the Spectator now modelling its headlines on the red-tops? And have you considered the way your sensationalist 'guilty until proven innocent' publicity might complicate the work of our American allies in Iraq?
What is truly shaming is the way journalists jump on anything that might sell more newspapers, regardless of the consequences to the national interest.

Snowman

The gist of DavidDP’s point @ 5.35 shouldn’t be dismissed lightly. During fighting everything should be fair game, however brutal, unthinkable - it’s either us or them. To come on top our troops can hardly behave nicely trying to destroy an enemy of a medieval make-up. After the combatants are taken into custody, rules of sanity-cum-humanity should kick in, however. One doesn’t have to be a subscriber to any of the ‘uman rights’ pap to accept that. The Nazis, by and large, did.

Still, the allegations sound serious, and it matters not that as a country we are a soft touch, the lawyer involved has a record, the mullahs themselves enjoy beheadings and the rest. The Army should look into it, and do what and where the outcome takes them. But not the bloody Independent with its hidden agenda. And ‘if proven will it shame the British Army?’ Bollocks, it will shame the individuals involved, unless it was sanctioned from the top, and everyone was encouraged to do it.

Verity

Where are the two comments I made around nine hours ago?

The Speccie is drawing its wagons into a circle. I am sure I am not the only regular poster who is being censored for holding an opinion opposing the accepted theology of the New Spectator.

Harlan Leyside

Such things and far worse happened in all wars.
War was hell.
What was malignant was Britain's military system that always closed ranks, aided by an establishment that ensured truth would remain hidden, culprits protected.
This allowed the likes of Blair and Duncan-Smith to go gung-ho into a war of aggression, promoting it as if war was good vs evil, as if an hostile invasion of a sovereign state could ever be remotely be justified.
Hugely complicit in this were the media, who perpetuated myth of a clean war, where horrors were barely touched on.
TV coverage of the invasion of Iraq resembled video-game fantasy, stripped of bloody consequences, horrific injuries, trauma, terror, ruination of millions of lives.
While not relieving him of responsibility, Blair's toy soldiers approach was to some degree understandable, given his lack of personal experience of military realities.
But Duncan-Smith, as an ex-military man, had no excuse. His enthusiasm for invading Iraq was an obscenity, callous and careless. For those in his party who eagerly followed his lead yet now seek to blame Blair's deceit over WMD for giving their support, there should be open condemnation at their breathtaking hypocrisy (Michael Howard springs to mind).
If there is truth to these latest allegations, we can be certain that it won't be the British that will expose it or hold those involved to account.

Dorothy Wilson

Those who point out the record of Phil Shiner are absolutely right. I seem to remember hearing his father say that he was ashamed of him.

Michael Booth

Key word here - allegations.

My understanding of term - things not yet proven.

Your understanding is?

logdon

Last night the BBC gave the reason for the delay in reporting these allegations was fear of intimidation.

Yeah, right!

More like the ambulance chasers now trawling the place asking if anyone would like to make a quick buck out of a self loathing HM Gov funded by British taxpayers.

Whenever Stafford Smith and his cronies pop up on my screen I now switch off either metaphorically or literally.

Vilipend

Our "brave boys" have always behaved like this.
As the Indian knows, as the Irish know, as the Boer know.

brianha

what a load of old rubbish!
dont believe a word of these malicious politically motivated smears and quite why you and the bbc get so excited without any evidence is beyond me.

Frank P

Dorothy Wilson

Shiner's father was ashamed of him?

I'll bet his grandfather Ronald would have liked to have had a session with him on the barrack square, too.

Frank P

Verity

The New Specstatesman ... pleeeease!

Promise of Avalon

Brutal behaviour is, indeed, unacceptable, but let us not forget that abuse allegations are a weapon of war used by our opponents.

Frank P

logdon

'Stafford-Smith'

I agree, what a weird looking cove that guy is. I'll bet when he visits his punters in stir, the other cons think he's an escapee from the Section 47 block.

Isthereanybodyinthere

Seriously, I don't know why I keep coming back here. I had a friend once who went off his rocker and not in a good way. For years I would continue to visit him, hoping that he would have recovered himself but it was not to be. Eventually I just stopped. People do. When people do stop then you're going to need a new demographic to buy the thing. I'm not sure who they are.