CoffeeHousers' Wall 16 November - 22 November

Wily Trout

What is the point of the police?

Haldane

Haldane
November 15th, 2009 8:23pm

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What's a chap to think? Even I, and I suspect many of your readers, are becoming somewhat perplexed at the Editor's failure to venture a comment on the Neather story despite numerous and repeated postings asking him to do so.

Peter

The best news this morning? No agreement in Copenhagen. Is this the first chink in the armoured madness of the MMGW fanatics? Is there now a chance that the sane but barely publicised voices of scientific reason will start to prevail upon some of the global leadership to reconsider the insanity of their policies?

Andy Hopkins

I agree with Haldane. Where is the post on the Neather article? This was a revelation of huge importance and needs to be discussed.

Vulture

I spent the weekend, for my sins, with three leftie media types. All were northerners who now live in London. I was astonished by how often , unprompted by nasty old Rightie me, the conversation turned to one topic: immigration, especially Islamic immigration, and what I can only describe as their fear for the future and their children's future. I nearly fell off the motorway when one, a dyed-in-the-wool Liebourite, revealed that she would be voting BNP because she is sick
of Liebour 'deliberately filling this country with peasants from places like Somalia and Bangladesh who do no work and live off our backs'. Unquote. The Liebour ballot stuffers need to get busy rigging their votes now, cos ( apart from Glasgie, home of the moron) genuine Liebour votes will be very hard to find.

Sam ARMSTRONG

Some people say it's not worth worrying about British politics any more since Parliament is now nothing more than a regional council of the EU. But according to a piece by Mark Steyn featured on Melanie Phillips's page, the EU itself will have fallen by 2030 due to an ageing European population and the grown in numbers of Islamic migrants.

Is there anything worth holding onto any more? Is there any hope of escape from this genocide and how will that happen? Shall all Europeans move to the States or Australia?

If we started rioting against Muslims who would oppress us, would the US Army come and kill us or come and save us?

Austin Barry

Every sentient person understands the dangers of Islamic immigration, even our ruling elite who nevertheless treat the issue like passengers on a late-night, South London train when a gang of hoodies board: don't stare and say nothing and maybe we'll arrive at Clapham Common with our liberal pieties intact.

I suspect though that we are just one atrocity away from what the shrinks call 'the burst into reality' when all the accommodations, relativism and pious, multi-cultural homilies of our complacent, timorous leaders will be shredded along with the flesh of the innocent victims.

Anne Wotana Kaye

What are the use of the police? If it is protectcting people, than it depends if you are on the list of politically correct people who should be protected. On Armistice Day there was a dreadful event in Romford. As elderly Jewish ex-servicemen marched past, together with their non-Jewish comrades, a shout went up from a group of box scouts, "Here come the Jews! Kill the Jews!" No, this wasn't Nazi Germany, this was 2009 Great Britain. The shouts and cries were heard by all save police standing by, and the Rabbi who was present actually had to call them. It is worth noting that the ex-military personnel had fought in World War II against a common enemy, yet the police were not there for them. I believe that if Islamists had been abused and shouted at, instant arrests would have taken place. Even if the Islamists had been shouting against the military march past, I still believe the police would have protected them. I feel sick and disgusted. The BBC naturally gave this a very low profile. For once I am happy to be a senior citizen and not have to pay a licence to the stinking organissation that dares to use the word 'British' in its name.

Tiberius

If I remember rightly, Mark Stein gives three possible outcomes to the Eurabia question.

1. Islam wins under the current terms of engagement.
2. Islam changes to embrace Western values.
3. The West rediscovers itself, and defeats Islamic advancement on all fronts of the Sitzkrieg.

Anyone fancy opening a book?

In the event of 1., the men can hope to survive by keeping their head down and growing their beard a bit longer. The outlook for women, gays and Jews is rather less rewarding.

I am inclined to agree with Austin, ie. 3. with an indeterminate amount of blood spilt, and possibly with troops and even GIs on the streets.

oldtimer

There was an emotional interview on BBC Breakfast this morning with a lady who was one of the many thousands of children deported by the state to Australia. One dynamite question she asked was this: why were they sending British children to Australia when they were accepting children from Europe into Britain at the same time?

It occurred both to my wife and myself, considering the powers now available to social services, that nothing really has changed to limit the power of the state to interfere in the lives of families. Children may not now be deported to Australia but they can, and are, removed from their parents and placed with foster parents/put into care after hearings behind closed doors and with little apparent redress or power of appeal by the parents.

Edward Sutherland

Neather, please.

James Strong

'Youths' rioted in Marseilles after Algeria lost a football match to Egypt.

Why should 'youths' with a loyalty to France riot when a foreign country loses a football match.

The answer, of course, is that they have no loyalty to France;their loyalty is to a different country and a different culture.

It's a danger that also threatens Britain.

We all know what kind of immigration needs to be stopped and which 'communities' must not be pandered to any more.
The ROP sees us as its enemy; we must do likewise.

London Calling

Another sad day at Wootton Bassett. This almost daily return of fallen soldiers is heartbreaking. I marched against the War in Iraq and was against our troops going into Afghanistan. I would march again to bring them home, however a commitment was made and I know we have to honour that commitment before our troops return home.

Never again in our name

Ellen

I despair of British conservatism, which seems mainly concerned with keeping a monied elite out of the cesspit the rest of us are swimming in.

A number of posters on last week's wall flagged up American Thinker. Why does The Spectator not find British writers like AT's Larrey Anderson and James Lewis?

The Wall is supposed (it says on the blurb) to be a means of communication between The Spectator and the readers.

So how many times do you have stick two fingers up at us? We can stick two fingers back at you, too, as if you hadn't noticed. We know what goes on.

Perhaps one day there will be a site like American Thinker that actually rehearses and tests the arguments for real conservatism.

Where's Leo McInstry? He helped us get rid of Clive Davis. Come back, Leo, and we'll have a full-scale assault. Let's use copies of America Alone as a battering ram on the door at Old Queen Street.

All hands on deck. This is an emergency.

PS, here's more American Thinker to help deconstruct The Spectator:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/11/the_at_readers_complete_lexico.html

Tiberius

http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/2624/

Steyn and Coffee Housers Alone?

Andy Carpark

I was sorry to have missed the feature film, 'Young Dave', which finally made it's way to terrestrial television, although I did hear a couple of second hand reports. Loosely modelled on the 1972 epic, 'Young Winston', the film shows imaginative reconstructions of Dave letting off a fire extinguisher, Dave playing the drums with an improvised assembly of kitchen utensils, Dave with his hands on his knees 'playing the whale', and, Dave in more ruminative Rodin's 'Thinker' mode in Radcliffe Square, no doubt pondering the challenges ahead.

The consensus was that 'Young Dave' was an exciting and thought-provoking piece, which stirred viewers into debating by text and on 'Twitter' whether Dave was born great, will achieve greatness, or will have greatness thrust upon him. One thing's for sure: time will tell!

Rhoda Klapp

This is going to be long. Now's the time to skip to the next comment.

OK, only the curious are left. This comment is a response to the Spectator Awards controversy. I would have put something on the Fraser Nelson answers the questions thread but I reckoned it needed some thought, and that my initial reaction would be well-covered by others. I still think Fraser doesn't get it. Or maybe he doesn't want to. Here are my more-considered thoughts (for those who are still with me).

The Spectator exists inside the bubble. That is inevitable, it would not last long if it was too critical of politicians and the political class. The relationship between the media and the political class seems way too cosy to the rest of us. Part of that is envy. I will never meet one of the politicians who outrage me so much. When they have their precious awards dinner, I am outside with my nose pressed to the window. Excluded. Even if I was inside, I suppose comon decency and manners would prevent me from saying what I thought of the whole egregious crew. I imagine that even if Blair or Mandelson stuck out his hand, I'd shake it, against all inclination (whilst observing that Blair or Mandy would be simultaneously looking over my shoulder, checking the room for more important guests, ugh!).

The Spectator is a weekly magazine. That means that editorially it has to do things on a weekly basis. The Blog allows it to get into the daily news cycle too. But so much of the news cycle, daily or weekly, is just so much trivia. Or indeed rigged. The idea that somebody, in the back rooms of No10 or CCO or the Today Programme is getting together to DECIDE what the agenda will be for today or this week is anathema to me. It stinks. Most of those things don't matter to anyone who has a life outside politics. Which creepy non-entity is making a speech aligning himself for a run at the party leadership? Who cares? What's today's press release outlining a possible policy change which has either been announced before or will never happen? Who cares? The things that actually affect me are the same today, tomorrow, last week, last month. They do not fit easily into a weekly news cycle. And no magazine can afford to go harping on about them either, in the absence of some topical event to bring them up.

So, here we are. A readership with legitimate political concerns, of various hue, hanging around this blog waiting for scraps of what we are worried about, and being fed endless pap.
Those of us who are even vaguely of a rightish bent are dismissed (see Fraser's remarks) when we comment as the nasty tendency. There will inevitably be more brickbats than bouquets, but we the anointed few know our audience and they may be safely ignored. I'm fed up with being part of the nasty tendency. I'm tired of being pigeon-holed as some sort of red-faced Colonel with a set of views which is unnuanced and purely right-wing tending to apoplectic ultra-conservatism. If I can be so pigeonholed, then those who do so are not required to engage with my arguments (although they should be so easy to demolish, should they not?) but I and all the rest of the nasty tendency, the loons, the ranting raving right-wing saliva-drippers may be dismissed.

That's what I would like to fix. What we were used to call the disconnect. But it isn't a disconnect. They political class know what we think, but it is their tactic to disallow any way we have to express our views if they don't fit in with the political agenda. I presume that's why we don't ever have a full discussion here of the real issues. Or we are denounced as loons by Spectator bloggers past and present.

There are five issues which seem to be, no not beyond the pale, we may comment on them, and columnists on right-wing papers may write on them, but in political terms untouchable. In every case there is polling evidence that a large percentage of the population feels one way, but almost the entire body politic goes the other.

The issues are:

Immigration, the issue of numbers and control.
Multi-culturalism, the issue of lack of mandate
The EU
Man-made climate change
The war in Afghanistan

In each of these cases, one side of the issue is political orthodoxy, espoused by all three main parties. The other is something mentioned only to dismiss, no matter how many of the non-political population view it. Now, any given person may not be, almost certainly will not be, on the 'wrong' side of all of those issues, but if you are, on any of them, against the orthodox view, you are pretty much disenfranchised as far as doing anything about it. This isn't how a democracy is supposed to function. And the only conclusion is that we no longer live in a democracy, if indeed we ever did.

So what do I expect to be done about it? Well, taking to the streets is a bit OTT, before any other remedies are tried. What can we do right here? Keep commenting with your views, without fear or favour. Keep the pressure on Fraser to discuss the poison issues, even if it discomfits his mates in the bubble. Challenge every time when somebody is called a loon for right-wing views cogently expressed. Campaign for a true right-wing voice here on the blog, for there is no right-wing figure in the country who is allowed to speak for us, except those associated with the compromised Tory party. Our aim ought to be to get to a stage where an articulate right-winger with no party ties could state the people's case (it won't always be right-wing) freely on broadcast TV.

As a first step, I call upon the editor to include a guest blog here, separate from the open-post wall, where individual coffee-housers could post, on an occasional basis, about the issues which concern them. Put up a method of submitting posts, vet them for grammar and offensiveness but not subject, put them up in a blog of the same format as the named blogs.
Fraser? Fraser? Is there anybody there?

Kevyn Bodman

Rhoda,
Thank you.
Well worth reading to the end.
You are right about the Speccie being on the inside. Politicos and journalists feed off each other and stoke each other.
I suspect that politicians have about as much respect for us as I do for them.Most journalists would side with the politicos.

One point I'd like to take you up on from your 5 issues is immigration; it's not really the numbers that matter,nor the colour (not your point I know but I'll say it because it does matter to some);it's the culture.

Many commenters on the wall this week have already stated the true problem there.
That is progress.

Kevyn Bodman

I failed to get on to last week's wall 4 times.
I want to recommend The Albion Alliance.
Some of you will already have found it; if you haven't, do go and have a look.

http://albionalliance.org.uk (I think.)

I have no connection with them except having signed up after reading their site when I stumbled on it.

Republican Tory

"Put up a method of submitting posts, vet them for grammar and offensiveness but not subject, put them up in a blog of the same format as the named blogs."

Very well said, excellent idea, care to offer a reply Fraser.

quadratus

Ne(a)ther regions.
"....the underworld..hell"
Oxford English Dictionary.

Seems to have frozen over?

Rhoda Klapp

Ellen, snap! Hadn't read yours befroe I posted mine. It's true America still has right-wing discourse, whereas we don't, for fear of frightening the horses.

Wilhelm

Visionary Enoch Powell made this very prophetic statement in 1964

'' In the end the liebour party will cease to represent labour, stranger historic ironies have happened than that. ''

Jack Straw quote '' The English arent worth saving as a people.''

Greg Dyke liebour supporter '' The BBC is horribly white. ''

Magret Hodge quote '' The Proms is too white.''

Alan Johnston quote '' I dont care if the population goes up to 70 million''. Better start building some council houses then, eh Alan ?

Peter Hain quote '' The Lisbon Treaty is just a little tidying up exercise.'' Hains arrogance and egotism is breathtaking. The Lisbon Treaty turns England from a nation into a province of Europe. Europe is now a nation, a legal entity with a president, Westminster is now a parish council.

Archbishop of Canterbury wants Sharia law.

Frank Field quote '' A lot of English people are leaving the country en masse because the way Britain is turning out, they dont like it.''

Enoch Powell quoting Euripides '' Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad.''

Shouldnt the liebour party be called the Anti English party ?
Enoch Powell, the best prime minister England never had.

Nicholas

Read it through carefully Rhoda and you have encapsulated the issue perfectly. Not only that but it reassures that there are others out there that share my concerns and frustrations with the current state of political play and reporting. The prevalent scorn which you characterise so accurately is bad enough coming from the left - but expected - but when it comes from the supposed right. . . "Unacceptable views that prevent us from appealing to the centre and getting elected" I get worried about things like integrity and truth.

Thank you.

James Murphy

Sam Armstrong - such is my state of liberal confusion that if I, for one, rioted against Muslims I would have no hesitation in arresting myself, submitting myself to Sharia law, and then cutting my left had off with my right hand and with it my nose to spite my face. would this go far enough? Only time will tell.

Peter

Although I am sorry to hear about the forced emigration which ended 30 years ago I fail to,understand yet another glut of apologies form people totally unconnected and therefore having no responsibility for what happened.

An apology only makes sense if the person apologising was responsible. Anything else is moronic.

And where have all these sufferers been for the last 30 years and more? Why are we only now seeing grieving people all over our TV screens?

Someone enlighten me, please.

MikeF

Something has been bugging me for a couple of weeks now and I feel I ought to get it off my chest. I went to the cinema a couple of weeks ago and saw the film An Education, which has generally got quite fulsome reviews - not least in the Spectator, as I saw in the print edition.

I didn't particularly want to go but a friend of mine did and so I went along. The film is very loosely based on a memoir of the journalist Lynn Barber and concerns life in London in the early 1960s. Essentially the story - and I won't give it all away - concerns a schoolgirl from a rather conformist background, who meets and becomes infatuated with an apparently sophisticated older man who sweet talks the girl's parents, who are depicted as well-intentioned but gullible, into letting him take her all sorts of glamorous places - a Chelsea night club, Walthamstow dog track, Paris.

As it turns out he is rather less wholesome than he at first appears - in fact he is a crook and a liar. He is also Jewish and I understand the film has attracted allegations that it is anti-semitic, though in truth the fact that he is Jewish barely registers - apart from one instance. This is where the girl tells her headmistress - played by arch-luvvie Emma Thompson - that she is engaged to the man but that they will not be getting married in a church because he is Jewish. At this the Thompson character bursts out with a line something like: "But they killed Christ." She then mutters something conciliatory about "that business in the war" - presumably a reference to the Holocaust.

Now this struck me as quite out of character with the rest of the film. In fact I wondered if - in a film that depicts early 60s Britain as fusty, but not utterly appalling - a scripting decision was taken to shove in an episode that would make the average audience member, who of course would not have been born then, think that a type of anti-semitism that is frankly mediaeval was commonplace at the time.

Now has anyone read the original and does this episode appear in it or was the opportunity taken to insert a real nasty into the proceedings? If the former, well fair enough though it still jarred. If the latter, well - as I said - we can't have people thinking that Britain before the advent of multi-culturalist sensibilities was anything but a cesspit of prejudice can we.

London Calling

Rhoda…Very well put into context.

The real issues of course inevitably boomerang back to the Government, which
Reflects poor judgment, uncomfortable to debate and sheer frustration for the many.

You are correct to assert that the Political bubble in which the political media find themselves floating along also makes it at times difficult for journalists to fully express themselves, for example Fraser Nelsons quick response to criticism regarding the Spectator awards, yet no response from Fraser to the numerous requests from Spectator bloggers regarding the Neather report and operation Brace yourself, of which Fraser has been continuously criticised to date. If Fraser doesn’t want to comment on these issues for whatever reason, fine, but the silence is deafening and leads me to think the Bubble has a thicker wall than we realised.

On a positive note, there have been many posts on the Spectator that have been balanced, but I do feel that there is a disconnect at times, which maybe due poor editorial judgment. All the suggestions Rhoda suggests are positive, however I am weary of late, many of my comments have not got through recently and I cant be asked to continuously copy and paste to PH to get through. I am aware this is happening to many who contribute to these blogs, which is a disappointment because it deters people from commenting and joining the debates.

SUSAN HILL

Rhoda.. as I now have a blog on the Spectator but am emphatically not part of the 'bubble', not a London person, not close to any area of government, I am trying to pick up the points you make from time to time. The moment I mention that I live in the country I get an automatic deluge of 'middle class' and 'Ambridge correspondent.' Ambridge, as keep pointing out, is so NuLiebour and PC it's a joke in the country. I share your concerns and am probably on the same side as you on most issues. Part of my brief as a blogger is to look at these issues - from outside the London/Westminster/media bubble. I plan to do just that in between what you might call 'softer' posts - which are simply there to bring a touch of lightness and pleasure to the more serious issues.
I am also on a campaign, which I will not abandon, to ensure comments on CH and to the posts and blogs, even if in vehement disagreement with the writer, remain polite, pleasant and courteous. Abuse, personal denigration and name-calling that would disgrace a playground have appeared too often. If we are to debate serious issues, however vociferously, we must learn to speak with both frankness and with personal respect and courtesy.
End of sermon. Watch my blog.

Frank P

Rhoda & Ellen.

Concur with both the spirit and detail of what you each write, but I fear that the targets of you pleas (and scorn?) are impervious to criticism. This probably means that their dismissive arrogance; disingenuousness and persistent refusal to respond to reasonable requests and clarification is sanctioned, or even demanded, at a higher level of authority within the editorial, proprietorial, or even political, strata.

I know that I am a grumpy old man by dint of my posts, but not by nature. Indeed, as a reader/subscriber of this magazine for much longer than any of its current editorial staff have lived (even Andrew Neil who seems to be badly fraying around the edges) I feel betrayed and saddened. Nelson insists that he is following an historical editorial policy. I beg to differ. I doubt that he has had time to research the historical content of this magazine's editorial bent; he's obviously been too busy fraternising with the fucking enemy. (You didn't really expect me to get through a post without using a single expletive - did you). And you know who I mean by the enemy.

Btw, as I have mentioned before, I am no longer a subscriber. The dumping of Paul Johnson, by means of the age old ploy of making him an offer he simply had to refuse, provoked me to cancel my sub. But frankly many other events since then would have justified this outcome. We, the window-lickers, could all vote with our feet; but that would throwing in the towel. We should strive to badger the buggers until they change their ways. But perhaps if more readers read the magazine in the local library, rather than buying it, it might focus the minds of both the editor and the owners. Perhaps even their political mentors would react to this form of readership protest. And as for the refusal of Nelson to force this magazine through a serious breach in labour's dyke (no - not her ... their defences) the Neather revelations, after promising that he would, then which ever way you cut it, that is cowardice. I hereby award him the White Feather.

The Gateless Gate

Enough already with the long posts.

A couple of words is sufficient - Neathergate.

Frank P

TGG

We tried that; result?

Beer Moth

On the current BBC news front page:

"China has become one of a handful of nations to own one of the top five supercomputers in the world."

Is it me?

Beer Moth

Frank P

Like it.

The Neather Feather.

Verity

Quite the new broom, aren't you, Susan Hill?

Edward Sutherland

Frank P and others: I just wish Fraser Nelson would have the decency to explain to the many bloggers at Coffee House why he feels the Neather revelations and the subsequent revelations by the Sunday Times are unworthy of his attention despite his earlier assurances that he would cover this significant develpoment. If he, unlike many others such as Rod Liddle,Mel Phillips and Minette Marin, feels the matter is so lacking in interest let him come out and say so. Like you I'm being sorely tempted to cancel my hard copy subsription.

daniel maris

I think the problem for Frank P. and others is that really there has always been more of one political class in this country than two. The political class revolves around dining tables and mixes freely with the media class. Labour and Conservative politicians have never been that far apart in reality. Conservative MPs were always a lot less keen on the death penalty and imprisoning homosexuals than they used to pretend. Likewise Labour politicians were always a lot less keen on sending their kids to some God-awful comp.

Very few in the political class suffer any great evils from mass immigration or rampant crime on council estates. Very few have much to do with welfare dependency.

What this country needs - as Daniel Hannan to his credit has identified - is a more effective democracy. That way the people's voice will be heard more clearly and the political class will see themselves more as realisers of the public will, rather than its leaders.

Derek

As Mr. Fraser is obviously spending sufficient time to ruminate with rigour on the Neather scandal, would it not be also timely to weave into his conclusions his view of its relationhip to the Pasquill stink? (See Nick Cohen in Standpoint) This braid of treasonous rot in our political class is fit subject for a new editor of a conservative magazine, though it is understood that in this case he may have been preoccupied encouraging his staff to deliver his magazines on time. Better not though to begin his tenure with a whimper.

Frank P

Daniel Maris

Thank you for amplifying my plea. Hannan should keep his options open. He may be needed later, but we will probably have to make do with Cameron in the short-term, despite his failure to convince many of us that he not just another Blair and therefore the continuation of the worst thing that ever happened to politics in this country.

Beer Moth

Wonderful! We must collaborate more often.

Verity

Daniel Marris, you still, even after the Neather revelations, don't get it? You write, speaking of how close the dinner party politicians of both parties are to one another: "Very few in the political class suffer any great evils from mass immigration".

That's not it.

Even after the Neather (whisper his name softly lest the editor hears us!) revelations. The infusion into our ancient, cohesive, familial society of the toxin of hundreds of thousands of immigrants from a primitive society who fiercely adhere to a belief in a vicious, primitive diety, for the sole purpose of discommoding the owners of these islands was deliberate. It was a deliberate assault against us because the left hates us so.

Verity

Frank P - We cannot "make do" with Cameron, because he is one of them. A self-serving, euro-ambitious lefty. We have to choose an individual bound by conservative beliefs.

It may be too late for David Davis, who was so betrayed by the behind-the-scenes "Conservatives" who slotted previously unheard of (and deservedly so)Dave into place.

Although perhaps not. I don't think I was alone in being absolutely astounded by this unknown apparently beating a known Conservative stalwart in an apparently clean vote.

There is no appetite for David Cameron. Conservatives will flee to UKIP and some, in affected areas will, quite rightly, go to the BNP.

In which case, we would look to someone charismatic, who does well on TV and who is provably a genuine Conservative. And would have the conservative Americans on side. Which brings us back to Hannan.

Frank P

Mark Steyn changes the subject on his website and, as a diversion, provides with engaging commentary a wonderful reprise of Johnny Mercer's music to celebrate the genius's centenary:

http://www.steynonline.com/images/banners/masthead/sotw%20johnny%20mercer%20centenary%20special.mp3

A timely reminder that the world did not begin with The Beatles, or indeed Elvis Presley.

Give your ears a treat and your souls a shot of nostalgia.

EC

SUSAN HILL,

Ambridge, Penny Hassett, The Borchester Echo, are they all to be banned? Why, the Archers has been on air nearly as long as Libby Purves has been doing 'midweek!'

By implying that Archers fans are "NuLiebour" by association are you breaking your own rules? Would you ban mother in law jokes? Crikey! I do hope your'e not coming round to confiscate my Les Dawson tapes.

I think that the Speccie team do a good job in cutting out the worst ad hom excesses and waiving things through when they are in context. Where commenters have developed a long term faux 'abusive' relationship they let things be. And when comments sometimes disappear into the Spectatavoid, for which posters claim are political reasons, they can fall back on the "nah mate it wos the software" defence.

Haldane

Frank P,
Tomorrow night (Wed), at the Jazz Club Soho, a whole evening celebrating the work of Johnny Mercer - should be magical.

EC

Kelvin Mackenzie is on top form in "The Times" today as he reviews the Cambridge students' new e-Tabloid. This is a gem!

http://tinyurl.com/ycfcglv

Patricia Shaw

Interesting Dispatches last night.

Fraser Nelson being shipped over to Israel for a conversion course.

A rather nasty case of CIF Corruption

The outing of all those mock pressure groups like CAMERA, so beloved of Mrs Phillips

And most intriguingly of all, the words of the former UK Ambassador who said that Zionists might be British, live in Brian and speak English, but support another State. Israel, and always put it first.

peter

As an occasional visitor to these pages my impression is that they are simply a sounding board for the same re-worked ideas and prejudices of the same few contributors . Please disabuse me if I am wrong, but if not why aren't new contributions encouraged.....or are they? Or is it simply an idea that has not fulfilled its original objectives?

Frank P

Verity

Much as I agree with your sentiments, I am being realistic. There is no way that the period between now and May is long enough to be able to effect a change of leadership in the Tory Party. Last night's SW Norfolk spat shows that Davy's Locker is not about to be unpicked. And I didn't say we 'can' make do, I said we probably will have to make do.

On a previous thread last week I suggested that Frank Luntz (as you know - an American pollster/political fixer), invented David Cameron in September 2006 by manipulating a focus group on Newsnight. Having seen the Dave and Boris 'docudrama' (mockudarama) on Channel 4 a few days later I now know that Lundz and Cameron were at Oxford together and collaborators - an indication of just how insidious this manufacture of the new Tory leader was; I don't remember Lundz mentioning this to the focus group.

Nicholas, our fellow window-licker, dismissed this Oxford meeting of minds as the ‘high spirits of youth’. Had he watched the programme (he admitted that he didn’t) I think his perceptions would have been different - Nicho is a shrewd dude and doesn't normally extrapolate in the dark.

DD, your preferred choice, obviously lacked the elitist backing and Machiavellian skills available to DC, or shadowy figures from Buck House picking up the blower. (Not unusual for blowers to be picked up at Buck House btw).

I'm not suggesting that Cameron's shortcomings should not be vigorously and rigorously discussed, but his ascendancy to No 10 looks like a fait accomplis now; unlike you I feel that it is important to remove Brown's and Mandelson's baleful influences from British politics, soonest. For the time being Cameron is the only device available to achieve that.

One step at a time, kiddo! We can work on the succession once the current chapter of the Gramscian guerillas is history; if Cameron then falls into step with the Long March, we can surely arrange some effective IED's along the route; I'm a volunteer for the Tory Taliban, but understand that it will be a longer term project than we would have wished, we may have to snipe from the hills pro tem.

Henceforth 'HANNAN'S THE MAN' should start resounding through the blogosphere (previously expressed reservations notwithstanding), but in May the only way to rout Brown and his Bastards is to vote for Dave and his Dissemblers, I fear. Remember Gramsci's ethos - if you can't beat 'em, then infiltrate 'em and destroy 'em from within!

Anyway – my vote is a drop in the ocean (or perhaps I should say The Wash). My MP occupies a very safe Tory seat in NW Norfolk and any dissention here will be washed away with the sand on the next high tide at Hunstanton. That’s democracy for you.

Derek

Patricia Shaw Those Zionists! They're everywhere - even in Brian. Is nowhere safe?

Frank P

peter (11.37am)

A rather silly and disparaging remark. All blogs comprise a regular commentariat and this has a more diverse one than most. What is best about this one is that the hosts are usually at odds with their punters; as most of the punters are supporting the cause this magazine once espoused, it makes for some some rough and tumble. If you want to put the regulars to rights, chance your arm and see how you go. At the moment you're just trolling. Do you also walk in to strangers' homes gratuitously and complain about the wallpaper, by any chance?

And finally if the content of this blog is not to your liking then may I gently suggest that you bugger off and blog elsewhere, cocker. You wouldn't be Peter slimeball Mandelson, bac, would you?

Tiberius

"Quite the new broom, aren't you, Susan Hill?"

Afraid she'll muscle in on your territory, Verity?

peter

Frank P

Ooooh! ( handbag raised ). The girlies are upset, so I had better move on.

SUSAN HILL

EC. It is the production team of The Archers, like most of the BBC now, who are dyed-in-the-wool Nu Lab and PC. The PC part has become a joke. I haven`t listened to it regularly for ages as it annoys me so much. It affects the veracity of the characters and stories when a mother makes no comment at all on seeing her daughter's illegimate (and surprise) baby for the first time and realising its father must be black. As I`ve said on here before, I don`t know anyone among my rural neighbours of many kinds who would in any way disapprove of that, but I also don`t know anyone who would not even mention it ..(the character knews nothing about the daughter's boyfriend so would not have expected the child to be mixed-race.) A few weeks ago, a farmer's wife was talking about getting supper ready and said, instead of something like 'I`ll go and get supper started..' 'I`ll go and start cooking something organic and local.' And NOT in irony. I spluttered over my own non-organic, non-local curry and rice.

Tiberius

I have to intervene on how Cameron beat Davis.

The party membership had a vote on which of the two they wanted as leader. They represented a clear choice of two directions in which the party could go. There was a lengthy hustings through summer and autumn 2005, and Cameron won the vote 2:1.

Cameron won because the membership judged he could take the Tories back to power, a judgement which is looking sound. Davis flunked it in a manner similar to Portillo in 2001 - he didn't show he wanted it badly enough. Cameron was not the creation of a metropolitan elite, shooed in EU-style, but the winner of a vote comprising around 250,000 people (of whom I happened to be one).

As far as I am concerned, he is still the only politician who can deliver a Tory majority. The other options are more NuLab, or a hung Parliament.

This position does only take us to first base. But considering the shocking state of the Tories from 1993 to 2005, it's a success.

Frank P

peter

As I guessed: Peter Mandelson! Don't forget to stroke Fraser's neck as you leave. And offer him a cup of tea ... poppet.

Frank P

Tiberius

So you're admitting that the Tories are a One Man Band? Do the other 249,999 agree with you?

Personally, I think they are shaping up as a No Man Band. Just a collection of W10/W11 girlie men with 'friends in high places'. But I'm prepared to give them a chance until something else turns up; let's stop rifting and get the current bastards OUT!

EC

SUSAN HILL,

I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with the current plot lines of the Argh.. er, ahem ... well known radio soap, as I've not listened to it for over 30 years.

If you are at all sensitive about references to the above then the best thing to do is ignore them. [or you only encourage them and it'll be DBOM with Ma & Pa Larkin next!]

James Murphy

Inspired by our great leader's apology for the hundreds of British orphans' tragically sent out to miserable lives in Australia during the war, I, as an equally insignificant nobody, wish to apologise to the French for having burnt Joan of Arc at the stake; I also feel bad about provoking the Boston Tea Party. Conversely, contrition is a two-way street, and I do feel the Italians could do more to express just a little penitence for their treatment of Caractacus, not to mention raping our dear Queen Bodicea and her daughters. These offences to British dignity will not just simply go away by the usual Italian maintenance of 'omerta' or code of silence.

Tiberius

Frank: what I am saying is that for the first time since Mrs Thatcher, they have a leader.

I'm a bit short on admissions, I'm afraid.

But I'm glad we agree that the imperative is to get NuLab out.

Frank P

James Murphy

Rather than pay the orphan's compensation, perhaps they should offer to transport them back to this Godforsaken hole. That should shut 'em up!

Wish someone has transported me to Brisbane after the War. They don't know when they are well off, obviously.

Vulture

Re. Frank P. & the discussion abt Tory leadership. The Right did have their chance post '97 in the shape of the Quiet Man. Didn't work. Dave is the beneficiary of the unpopularity of Bruin - nothing more. The Tories were probably right to elect him over DD who is pretty thick and incredibly vain and whose posturing over the civil rights of people who want to explode us has shown just how poor his judgement is. My preference would have been for Billy Hague, but he shot his bolt far too soon. And, I fear to say, no bald man has won a British GE since Attlee. So that rules out Hannan too - who is too earnest, too weird and too single issue for broad appeal. No, our white hope is yet to emerge. But he or she must be there in the shadows - waiting for Dave to start stepping on banana skinz - believe me, once he's in power it won't take long.

Beer Moth

peter

Your point taken, let's here what you have in mind.

Augustus

Vulture - I don't know about your 'white hope', but as I see it in this 'modern' world of voting, the average Joe or Jane doesn't give a fig about either traditional Labour or Tory values. You could say that both parties have in recent decades not been seen to move with times. First Michael
Foot's brand, and then later after Maggie, Blair proved that the Tories had been left behind. So what do they want? People who are not very rich don't want their representatives to be seen to be standing for big business or the rich. People nowerdays don't want anyone old-fashioned, that's why it helped Blair to have been a pop singer of sorts. But above all, they want to be represented by 'people like me'.
If Cameron doesn't fit that image because of his elitist background, the only way out for him and his team is to keep generating new ideas. After all, isn't it men and ideas
which have always shaped the world, whoever they were?

Verity

Worth repeating on Coffee House: Lee Jakeman over on The Liberal Centre's Continuing Confusion post, says that the BNP is the new rock and roll. As the Rolling Stones thumbed their noses at the then establishment, so the BNP today thumbs its nose at the Conservative and lefty establishment and produces similar shock and horror. Good observation.

Tiberius

Vulture: clearly you don't see Cameron as the Messiah, but do you see him as John the Baptist or simply a false prophet?

Dic

I just worry that if Dave Cameron had been in place a few years back he'd have been just as happy as Tony in New Labour - and if Tony was a few years younger he'd have joined the Tories - opportunity is all they want.
Although didn't Churchill do much the same?...

(And of course Cameron is a good Scotch name - isn't it odd?)

Haldane

"But, more than anything, we want this Wall to become a means of better communication between the Coffee House team and you, the readers. If you want us to write on anything in particular - add a comment to the Wall. If you want to ask us any questions - add a comment to the WalL".

Is this quote Neather here nor there?

peter

Beermoth - I had not intended posting here following Frank P's puerile display of invective following my earlier post. But out of courtesy and in response to your invitation to participate, it is clear that I am not in tune with the way the Wall works and therefore would prefer to accept Frank P's suggestion to "bugger off". In the long run it will be the best for me and for those members of the "clique" who share his attitude towards those would like to join in. Good luck!

Vulture

@Tiberius: IN terms of historical rather than Biblical analogies, I see Dave as the new Heath;and the coming likely Tory victory as analogous to 1970 - a false dawn that will rapidly end in tears. Then will come a time of darkness, wailing and gnashing of teeth ( similar to the hellish years of the late 70s but worse) after which the new Messiah will emerge. Hannan, in this scenario will be Sir Keith Joseph!

rhoda klapp

Peter, you don't require permission to join in. This post is subject only to the terms explained in the header. You don't have to conform to the clique which you perceive. It isn't really a clique, although it may mostly be a like-minded group, it's not supposed to be an echo chamber. And Frank has no authority, indeed I'm sure would pretend to no authority, to invite you to bugger off. Go, stay, post, lurk, whatever, it's up to you. Be free.

Stuart Seacole Bunsen Burner

I wonder, did anyone else catch the "news" on BBC TV last night? Not the standard climate change/ war atrocities/ health scare/ multiculti propaganda slot, but the bit about the paternity test service being offered by some chemists? A wise man was brought in to opine that such a service was "in nobody's interest", saying that going through a costly, time-consuming and complex legal rigmarole was really the only way to go. A few moments later the female reporter summed up by effectively agreeing with him. It's always so helpful when our sage newsreaders inject a bit of personal opinion I find. The BBC world service radio presenters also have an especially nasty habit of trying to tell listeners what to think, but I digress. Anyway, I felt that a relatively quick, cheap and informal test of this kind might just be in somebody's interest, but whose? Could it be the (potentially) illegitimate child... the "lady" of the piece... the poor old beleaguered tax-payer? Well, no. But isn't there somebody else? Last time I read the stats, it costs an average of 3 squillion euro-pounds to raise a sprog. I think it's at least fair that he who typically pays the majority of the cost can be sure that the little ingrate is actually the fruit of his own loins, but berhaps I'm just a bit old fashioned.

A. MacAulay

Anne Wotana Kaye, I do not have time to read this blog every day, but even though the stream of responses has flowed beyond your comment on the shameful abuse of Jewish ex-servicemen, I would like to tell a small anecdote that reveals that anti-semitism, in all it's vileness is not new to Britain.

My German father-in-law was a POW of the British Army in 1945 and told me that the POW's were amazed (sublimation, hypocrisy, etc. is another discussion) when the fate of the Jews in the Holocaust was revealed to them. Then they were aghast when a British soldier said to them, "Should have killed the f+cking lot"

This appalling statement allowed the Germans to relativize their responsibility and make, as is also general today, comparisons between the 3rd Reich and the British Empire. The Tommies would have done the same if they had the chance, so to say.

Britain is very far from the Weimarer Republik and 1933, but it is ominous and alarming when British citizens cease to enjoy the protection of the law (the Police) because they are Jewish. Very, very alarming!

P.S. If the autobiography of Germany's foremost literature critic, Marcel Reich-Ranici has been translated into English, it cannot be recommended enough. His description of his Berlin childhood in the Hitler years and his deportation to Poland before 1939 and his incarceration in the Warsaw ghetto are of a clarity and understanding, without pathos that is truly remarkable.

A. MacAulay

Sorry! Marcel Reich-Ranicki

David Ossitt

Rhoda,
Thank you.

As is usual your long post was well worth reading to the end.

Verity

Stuart Seacole Bunsen Burner - I agree about World Service broadcasters. I got to the point where I couldn't bear to have the World Service on.

Mr or Ms MacCauly (can't switch back and forth on this Cro-Magnon set up, so posts are inevitably more fragmented than ere, you cite what an anti-Jewish remark by a British soldier 60 years ago or whatever as proof of ... what? Dear God! One comment, 60 years ago!

Vulture, the notion that David Cameron is another Ted Heath has crossed my mind, too. I think he needs to be kept out urgently. I would rather see another year or two of the socialists with the staggers than have a fresh, breezy and overly confident Cameron with his feet under the desk of No 10. I think he's a terribly dangerous man. He's ravenous enough for power to be extremely malleable to people with an agenda.

Nicholas

I don't think that remark was typical at all, although there is no doubt anti-semitism existed in the Army as it existed elsewhere in British society at the time. My uncle was involved in the liberation of one of the concentration camps and described ordinary British soldiers (who had fought since D-Day) being horrified by what they found and innumerable examples of their compassion and kindness towards the former inmates who were predominantly Jewish.

A. MacAulay

Verity. I would say that nearly all contributors to this blog, in one way or another, are socio-political slippery-slopers (as well as being CC deniers of course). I wished to point out with my story that the slope has a long past and that if we care about our civilisation then we have slipped too far when the point has been reached when citizens, veterans, can be insulted with impunity because they are Jewish. The 60 year old story is interesting because it's echo is 60 years long. Also interesting is your supercilious response.

In his autobiography, Reich-Ranicki describes being in a situation wherein he had lost the protection of the law and civilisation breaks down. My father described something similar in that the Japanese and Korean guards in the POW camp in Sumatra where he was held, like the Wehrmacht in Warsaw, knew they were doing wrong but did it anyway because their victims had been "de-humanized" and there was nothing and no-one there to stop them. When it was over and the war lost, these pathetic cowards tried to press afidavits of good treatment from the survivors!

Nicholas

I would rather take a chance with Cameron than have to put up with another "year or two of the socialists" drunk with hubris and power after winning. That would be unbearable and, IMHO, a far more dangerous proposition. It would be like giving Hitler another two years grace on the brink of his defeat because you were suspicious of Monty. No, the priority is to bring New Labour down at any cost - and then kick them too.

Verity

Susan Hill scolds from the provinces, “Abuse, personal denigration and name-calling that would disgrace a playground have appeared too often.” I haven’t seen any name-calling that would disgrace a playground. Name-calling round here is often pretty swank and is sometimes done in foreign languages, or Latin, and peppered with literate references.

Vulture, it wasn’t that Hague shot his bolt too soon. It was that the Tory Party forced the same mistakes on Hague that Cameron is making of his own free will. They tried to make Mr Hague into an imitation Blair – my God, putting him in a baseball cap! Having him and his wife attend the ghastly Notting Hill Carnival, and similar mistakes. That he is true enough to himself that he didn’t carry this enforced posturing off well is to his credit. David Cameron is also trying to be Tony Blair, but genuinely. In fact, he has abased himself by even laying claim to the title ‘heir to Blair’. There is a phoniness about Cameron that echoes Blair, but Hague is his own man.

I don’t find Hannan weird, but accept that voters some might be intimidated by his obvious mental wattage.

I would love to see Hague take another run at it, although he is probably making too much money in the private sector now (all hail!) to be able to spare the time.

Verity

A MacCaulay - "Verity. I would say that nearly all contributors to this blog, in one way or another, are socio-political slippery-slopers (as well as being CC deniers of course)."

Care to translate?

Peter From Maidstone

A. Macaulay, I am not sure that you have gauged the commentariat here correctly. I think I am one of the few who are critical of the state of Israel here and I never post on it. I have found the Spectator and its readership pretty solidly pro-Israel and pro-Jewish. I am certainly not anti-Jewish myself, and would find the comment you posted completely unacceptable.

But it is not as though the Jewish community is being particularly targeted, in my opinion. I think that a great many English communities are also under threat from the government and state bureaucracy.

Ordinary English people are not allowed to be English. The Christian community is told that areas of the country are 'Muslim', and religious festivals are renamed to exclude the religious element. Hoteliers cannot decide who they wish to patronise their businesses and are labelled racists, bigots and hate criminals if they turn anyone away.

Its not just Jews, its not mostly Jews even. All traditional English people find their English cultural way of life under threat.

Verity

A Macaulay - Further to what Peter from Maidstone said, there is far, far more anti-Scottish prejudice freely bandied about than anti-Israeli. Sometimes the freely expressed prejudice against the Scots and Scotland is shocking because we are no longer accustomed to baseless prejudice. (Not that the Scots have much interest in the opinions of the English, but the point is, it is blind prejudice freely indulged in.)

Beer Moth

peter

Shame. It sounded there, like you had something worthwhile to raise. You are going to find life is full of cliques. To hell with them and do your thing.

Anne Wotana Kaye

A. MacAulay thank you for taking the time to read my posting. I agree with what you have written, and it is a sad fact of life that people have prejudices and even if political correctness says they mustn't express them, they lay dormant. The hypocrisy of contemporary British life is that Islamists, even violently anti-Western ones, seem to get more protection from the law and even respect than Anglo-Jewry, many of whom wouldn't agree with me, and kid themselves that they are completely integrated into British life.
Peter from Maidstone, now here I can agree wholeheartedly with you. I see how many British people are denied their Christian heritage. But then I blame these people. Like the Jewish citizens, these basically decent people are law abiding and dont "want to make waves". They accept that they cannot have Christmas decorations, wear crosses to work, nor if they are nurses offer to pray for unhappy NHS patients. I read yeserday that Hook Hand Hamsa has still not been deported to the USA and is costing the taxpayers a fortune in maintaining him in style at Belmont Prison. His wife and criminal sons are also kept in luxury at a 7 bedroom West London mansion, all at the expense of the good old British public. Individual prejudices and hates are unpleasant, but the self-hatred and distain of traditional English life which this bolshie government has deliberately fostered, is more insidious and dangerous than whatever went before.

Verity

Ms Hill scolds from the provinces, “Abuse, personal denigration and name-calling that would disgrace a playground have appeared too often.” I haven’t seen any name-calling that would disgrace a playground. Name-calling round here is often pretty swank and sometimes done in foreign languages, or with Latin quotes, and peppered with arcane literary references. Vulture, it wasn’t that Hague shot his bolt too soon. It was that the Tory Party forced the same mistakes on Hague that Cameron is making of his own free will. They tried to make Mr Hague into an imitation Blair – my God, putting him in a baseball cap! Having him and his wife attend the ghastly Notting Hill Carnival, and similar mistakes. That he is true enough to himself that he didn’t carry this enforced posturing off well is to his credit. David Cameron is also trying to be Tony Blair, but genuinely. In fact, he has abased himself by even laying claim to the title ‘heir to Blair’. There is a phoniness about Cameron that echoes Blair, but Hague is his own man. I don’t find Hannan weird, but accept that voters some might be intimidated by his obvious mental wattage. I would love to see Hague take another run at it, although he is probably making too much money in the private sector now (all hail!) to be able to spare the time."

A. MacAulay

Peter of Maidstone, I had taken it for granted that I wouldn't be confronted with anti-semitism in a Spectator blog and I don't think I'll ever be disappointed in this respect. Nor do I suppose that every person who believes in Israel necessarily thinks everything they do is wonderful. Israelis themselves don't so why should we? The contribution I made as a response to AWK's may not have seemed pertinent to the general development of the commentaries, which is why I qualified it at the beginning, but it was a point I felt worth making, a personal experience interesting in itself. This kind of resentiment is corrosive, exists in every Western country, (including Germany which just shows that the depths of human stupidity have yet to be fathomed) and we are, as AWK just noted, too easily held to ransom by our sense of decency or propriety. So, I wasn't ashamed to go with my student son to an anti NPD demonstration because even though neo-NAZIS may be small in numbers (and braincells) it is very important to answer them clearly and decisively. That's all.

A. MacAulay

And yes, Verity, the English do seem to have a few wee problems in assimilating into a Scotch dominated society. If you read the "Protocols of the Elders of Kirk" you'll see that we're taking over the whole shebang. Bit by bit. Join your local Caledonian Soc. and think of the "White Heather Club".

Anne Wotana Kaye

Susan Hill writes "Abuse, personal denigration and name-calling that would disgrace a playground have appeared too often.” Sorry Miss Hill, but I beg to differ. We few, we happy few, Spectator bloggers to the core, do not resort to such low behaviour. The worst I have ever been called is "a snob", but being a confirmed Elitist, I wear that title as a badge of honour. Seriously, am enjoying your writing, with that plus "The Archers" I feel I am back in dear ol' Blighty!

Beer Moth

Even on Radio 3 they are at it.

A trailer this a.m. for a programme over the coming weekend, in which music can be heard, which has been put together using recordings of the ice cracking as it falls of the edge of glaciers.
Listen out for - I kid you not - 'Melting Point'.

Ferfrigsake.

If I supply the iron bar and a signed letter of agreement, would some kind soul be kind enough to twat me over the head with it please?

Verity

Macaulay - So why is is OK to constantly denigrate the Scots but not OK to say a negative word about the Jews? No week goes by without someone here referring in negative terms to the Scots in a manner that no one would tolerate if the reference were to Jews. I'm interested. You couldn't even keep the sarcasm and resentment out of the post above in which you responded to me. The Scots are the same ethnicity as the Irish - Celtic - but no one refers to the Irish in such negative terms. This attitude predates the Broon, Darling et al. It's a puzzlement.

Vulture

Not puzzling at all, Verity. We have been misruled by Scots ever since that grinning vacuous twat stepped over the No.10 threshold in '97. Most of them are third-rate student politickers who would be hard put to organise a knees-up in a whisky distillery, but let it passs. The real puzzle is why the tolerant English have put up with the hairy-arsed, ginger-tufted, tree-trunked legged Jockerati for so long.

A. MacAulay

You are quite right, Verity. Why indeed? My very dearest German friend happens to be Jewish and I'm sure this has made me generally more circumspect with ethnic ribaldries, with the exception of the French, naturally, who always appear to bei either posing or scratching. Sometimes both.

The simplest answers to your question is that the English no longer feel loved and are preparing themselves emotionally to divorce from the Scots. Or this is the kind of grumbling that can only take place between close relatives, brothers and sisiters. Besides, anti-Scottish resentiments are nothing new, just think of Dr. Johnson's comments or the press attacks on the Bute admin. Also, it’s simple to argue with a neighbour but dificult to get upset about someone who lives down the street. In this sense Jews, who have integrated into the body politic, whilst maintaining whatever they have from their culture are irrelevant in terms of the bigger frictions within the Union. If Gordon Brown was Jewish it would be noted but not held to be significant as his being a Scot is.

And yes, the Irish are now beyond the point where their origin makes any difference to the English. This was not always so. But even through the IRA bombing and murder campaign in the 70’s, which I expereienced in London, I never heard anyone say anything against the Irish.

England was from the first the senior partner in the Union and there is no doubt but that Scotland is smaller and poorer than England. Turning the people North of the Tweed into North Britons never succeeded because it goes against human nature to abandon identity, a culture dictated by geography and ethnicity. Economy is something else. So, should Scotland become independant, don’t expect the Southward flow of Scots to cease, because, “the noblest prospect that ever a Scotsman saw is the road to London”

A. MacAulay

Vulture. I love you too, baby.

Frank P

Steady on chaps! Ms Hill is watching from her side-bar window. She'll be out with the carbolic soap to wash your mouths out if you don't surcease; and confiscate your wooden porridge spoon Verity. :-)

Nicholas

" . . . it goes against human nature to abandon identity, a culture dictated by geography and ethnicity."

That didn't stop New Labour trying it with the English though (q.v. Reichsprotektor Jack Straw, England's own Heydrich, Neathergate and Operation Brace). When we dare to complain we are accused of being racist and all the other pejoratives contrived to intimidate, silence, belittle and demean. And we have a black American ex-hippy in the British Museum presiding over our history, the history of a non-indigenous people in a multi-cultural land that just happens to have three indigenous, fiercely nationalistic neighbours whom no-one dare trample on. Funny that.

Pity the English - but not for too long. They have a habit of biting back when pushed too far, and biting deep, hard and invariably fatally.

Nicholas

And fellow dissident swots and window-lickers of the Lower Coffee House, Ms Hill should get her facts right. She accused me of accusing her of being a leftie. I did no such thing! My rebuttal remains unanswered but I shall refrain from any profanity or from disrupting class further. It's bad enough having one's posts censored but I don't wish to be suspended or expelled for the abuse, personal denigration and name-calling which I regularly and intentionally extend to the officials of the occupying national socialist power. After all, with the nation's liberty at stake, who are we not to remain polite, pleasant and courteous to those oppressing us and their allies - otherwise they might get the wrong idea and think we actually mean to overcome.

Vulture

Like 90% of other CH posters I have become tired of waiting for Fraser's long promised piece on Neathergate, so let me switch subjects and try and get a response from him on another matter: the overwhelmingly left-wing bias of CH & Speccie commentators
on what was, when I last looked, supposed to be a 'Conservative' magazine/ website.

Messrs. Blackburn, Korski, Bright, Massie, and the late and unlamented Davis are or were left-0f-centre on every issue of importance - leaving Mel Phillipps as the lonely voice of sanity and right-wing reason. Why?

Fraser's own hard-nosed demolition of Bruin's fantasy economics gave me hope that when he replaced the ineffably flabby and self-preening W'Ancona we would see a shift back to the Spec's natural right-of-centre
orientation. It hasn't happened.

I don't expect a raft of me tooist reactionaries echoing the broad majority of CH posters. But I ( and I suspect most other Coffee Housers) would like to see just a little balancing up to set in the scales against the overwhelmingly left-liberal media commentariat elsewhere.

Is it too much to expect Fraser to answer this and tell us? (Sigh). I suppose it is.

Richard

Still no open gambling market for the EU, politicians still taking the convenient route and blaming social problems they haven't studied. It has come as no surprise that there is a lack of information available to draw these conclusions http://tinyurl.com/yb7admc #right2bet

Verity

As I said in the post immediately above yours, Vulture - although perhaps it hadn't gone up when you wrote yours - the sneering attitude to Scotland predates the swilling in of political correctness by NuLabour into the national stream of consciousness, so no one thought anything of it. If you didn't like someone, or a whole bunch of people, you were perfectly free to say so.

It struck when I came back from abroad to live, extremely briefly. Of course, 12 years ago, before the toxin of political correctness was infused into the body politic you could hate who you liked.

But coming to Britain as almost a stranger, it struck me particularly.

Andy Carpark

Vulture 11:58AM - In a rough and ready sort of a way, I define myself in opposition to norms of the metropolitan elite, or as Spiro Agnew once called them, the 'effete corps of impudent snobs, masquerading as intellectuals'. If we, the 'Turnip Taliban', are the object of their disdain, we should rejoice and be glad in it. We should treat it as the ultimate accolade.

Wilhelm

You cant make jokes about Africans, muslims, Irish, gays, women, disabled, anybody who lives in the third world.

So that leaves the Scots, Welsh and cyclists because they are caucasions and thats ok.

Robert Pelik

I just came across a remarkably good epitaph for New Labour in G.K.Chesterton (from 'The Common Man'): "unless a man has a philosophy certain horrible things will happen to him. He will be practical; he will be progressive; he will cultivate efficiency... he will do the work that lies nearest; he will devote himself to deeds, not words. Thus struck down by blow after blow of blind stupidity and random fate, he will stagger on to a miserable death with no comfort but a series of catchwords”. I sincerely hope The same fate does not befall David Cameron. Although I am not a liberal, either socially or economically, and therefore not an uncritical admirer of Mrs Thatcher, yet it seems obvious to me, that the fact that she had a philosophy, knew what she believed, was one of main reasons why she was such an effective politician: effective in the sense of making real historical change, not simply surviving in power.

Verity

EC - Thanks for the link. Very funny.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Listening to the news, I get the impression that Europe only want Britain for what it can get out of her. Blair's posturings it seems will come to nought. Unless they need us to fight to get them out of a war situation (World War I), then we are a convenient milch cow to milk for all we are
worth. Let them have an ex-Eastern Bloc Iron Lady to keep them in order.

A. MacAulay

How's the weather? Apparantly not getting hotter as noticed by an internationally renowned publication.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,662092,00.html

The Turnip Taliban

Great news that Blair's lost out on his dream job.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Further grest new: Hardperson is to be prosecuted for various alleged driving offences.
Really great news: These offences carry the death penalty. (cruel) :=(

Haldane

Should we try and keep this thread going? Sort of a Neather region in the geography of CH comment - wer'e already up to 108 comments.

In2minds

I see Susan Hill has written 'Nothing to do and nowhere to go'. First the village youth and now Tony Blair. You read it first in the Spectator.

The Bellman

Now the really important issues are done (the PM has backed Danyl/Daryl), may we have Fraser's post on Neather?

Alexandrovich

Yes, please may we have the promised piece on Neather?
Or failing that, how about your thoughts on the NHS cleaners being supplied from a pool of illegal immigrants?

egh

Right, Alexandrovich @ 11.20 - and their old brooms sweep up a dirty storm in the wards. At least they did four years ago when when my aunt was dying of one of those 'uncontrollable infections;' and I got pretty sick myself, after breathing it in.

I'd say 'Bring back Matron' - only I'm not sure how the marxists would interpret 'Matron,' nowadays....

Rhoda Klapp

In other news, a hacker has published files allegedly obtained by hacking the Climate Research Unit, which appear (if genuine) to show what is no less than a conspiracy to conceal data, misrepresent data and resist the release of data to public examination. Just a heads up to the Spectator, if true this is dynamite.

Nicholas

I see that ACPO are making a political statement on behalf of New Labour that senior police officers should not be politically influenced (as in the Conservatives proposed elected police chiefs policy).

Sir Hugh Orde expresses the following opinion on behalf of his New Labour sponsored, Common Purpose colleagues in ACPO, the unelected and unaccountable body that lobbies for more police power:-

''We should not be influenced by anyone who has any potential or suggestion for a political basis.''

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Damien Green anyone? Full story here:

http://tinyurl.com/yftoc5m

Sir Hugh, where have you been for the last 12 years? The police "service" is now run between the Home Office and ACPO, both hotbeds of politically influenced ideology, and the traditional relationship between the police and public in this country has been transformed beyond all recognition. You can't throw the tenets of traditional policing, the discretion of the constable and civic responsibility out of the window with one hand and then wave the other in distress at the thought that your centralised and newly exercised political power (courtesy New Labour & a succession of draconian communists at the Home Office) is going to be taken away by the Tories.

The statement you have just made is incredibly political - and you should be sacked for it. The political policies of a future government are not for you to comment on, you chump, your job is to uphold the law impartially and apolitically - end of.

Anne Wotana Kaye

I've copied this from a blog I sent, on one of David Blackburn's forums as nobody seems to have responded. Think it would interest EGH and ALEXANDROVICH as I fear many of the workers will be exploited illegals.
=========================================

I'm obviously very simple and must be excused if I cannot understand what's going on. Brown's government is ranting on about providing home care for all the elderly who require it. An excellent idea, because probably only the mentally ill or desperate would enjoy the thought of leaving their own residence and enter that oxymoron, the dreaded care home. Cameron, the 'Blue Blair' is also for the idea. Great! Now for the part simple little me cannot crack. First, where is the money coming from? OK, so I will leave that question to the economists who are so better at fiddling the books than I will ever be. The second question is far more complex. Who will do the caring, and where will the carers come from? I can hardly see the unemployed suddenly throwing up their benefits to help somebody else's granny or grandad into a clean pair of knickers. Neither can I see a queue of unemployed call centre and bank staff waiting to take on this job. So, once again I imagine Britain will rely on foreign labour. How will this equate with the promises to cut down on this source of cheap and ready labour? Anybody who can suggest an answer, please let us all know. Thanks

Private Schultz

Come on Spectator, these leaked emails are talking about you, for eg:

From: "Davies Trevor Prof (ENV)"
To: "Ogden Annie Ms (MAC)" , "Briffa Keith Prof (ENV)" , "Jones Philip Prof (ENV)"
Subject: RE: Climate Research Centre crisis spreads
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 08:33:16 +0100
Cc: "Summers Brian Mr (REG)" , "Preece Alan Mr (MAC)"

WE should make a statement along these lines. We should also stress that McIntyres analysis has not been peer-reviewed (& we need to explain what this means - for the man-in-the street).

Given the fact that this campaign is clearly not going to die down & we now have a silly attempt to escalate it locally (dragging Norfolk's reputation thro the mud), I have revised my view & feel we do need to pursue the spectator more vigorously. To me, it seems straightforward - Keith has been accused of fraud on an official Spectator website - that is (wharever the legal word is).

Trevor

In2minds

Even a year ago an article, such as the one by James Forsyth over on Coffee House, critical of the police would have been rare. So too the comments by Nicholas @ 10.34am above. However, time has moved on and now many people feel something is wrong and a few can go so far as to outline the problem. As Forsyth says - “the police, a totally unreformed public service”. The idea that the public will continue to pay for this 'service' without query is wrong.

oldtimer

@Rhoda Klapp re the Climate Research Unit.

Two links:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/19/breaking-news-story-hadley-cru-has-apparently-been-hacked-hundreds-of-files-released/

Another separate link on the Geography of a Recession, a visual record of the growth in unemployment in the USA from January 2007 to October 2090. It is dramatic and terrifying:
http://cohort11.americanobserver.net/latoyaegwuekwe/multimediafinal.html

http://www.examiner.com/x-28973-Essex-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m11d19-Hadley-CRU-hacked-with-release-of-hundreds-of-docs-and-emails

I wonder what the BBC will report about this?

oldtimer

In my earlier post read 2009 for 2090!

London Calling

I thought Fraser Nelson looked rather dashing in his Top Hat last night on This Week. It got me thinking, how about the Spectator staff doing a naked calendar for the poor working class…and a good laugh at the same time… I know exactly where Fraser needs to put his hamburger…tee hee

Frank P

London Calling

Fraser Nelson on "This Week"? Hmmnn....

Tell me honestly, do you remember the subject he was discussing? The sixth form japery and amdram presentation utterly detracted from the purported 'content. I always have difficulty with his burred, plummy Scots accent and speech impediment at the best of times - and this was not the best of times - but this time it left no impression whatsoever. The sound engineers need a kick up the arse, too. They always bury Diane Abbots's mic somewhere down in her ample knockers and her muffled emissions are also hard to discern.

Fraser's contribution was notable only for what he failed to mention: the Neather revelations.

Having watched watched Neil's late night programme since it was called The Midnight Hour, many years ago, I now note that it is becoming increasingly meretricious; another dumbing down tactic in the counter-culture war? As I said to the missus last night: "How can it be "This Weak."

I'm surprised Itchy and Scratchy stick with it; they are being dumbed down with it. The money must be good. Mind you, in my induced reverie as I nodded off, the vision of either Itchy or Scratchy doing an pole dance at Stringfellows seraglio after the show did afford a moment of sardonic reflection. It would have been almost as as funny as Peter Stringfellows' attempt at serious political comment during the show.

Alexandrovich

egh, did you see C4 news on Thursday evening? I cannot believe that this was not headline news this morning.
Oh, holdup, it's probably filed under Neather somewhere.

Robert Uncle

Global Warmist email server hacked, could these emails be the smoking gun showing
GW deception ? note this is a right wing site, I trust the readers can handle that -

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/11/20/the-global-warming-scandal-of-the-century/

egh

Alexandrovich: no?

I'm stateside at the moment, and listened instead to the World Service patronising the headlines in British ... ahem ... euro newspapers. Even the "left-wing" grauniad, came under fire! Trouble with belgian vowels, we have, you see. So they labelled us all 'xenophobes' and then moved on to 'mainland europe.'

Where, I ask, is Inspector Clusot when you need him? Xenophobes. Rumpystiltzkin (cf Cranmer).

egh

Alexandrovich ~~ so I checked it out online. Looks as if they got the cleaners to write the article! Not only are floor-sweepers now designated 'operatives,' but the story included this little gem: "They raised through the structures of the hospital, with the hospital management service and with ISS Mediclean."

Whatever ... I checked a couple of the links. Does it seem that the fuss is part of the campaign to popularise the renewed push for ID cards, and to excuse the 'national ID database'?

PS How I do loathe that term 'border agency!!** But, of course, like the database, it's not for our benefit, is it? Just there to suit old rumpy, I'd say.

**
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as [a] moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands;
...
This land of such dear souls, this dear dear land,
Dear for her reputation through the world,
Is now leas'd out--I die pronouncing it--
Like to a tenement or pelting farm.
England, bound in with the triumphant sea,
whose rocky shore beats back the envious siege
Of wat'ry Neptune, is now bound in with shame,
With inky blots and rotten parchment bonds;
(Richard II; Act II Sc. i 46-49; 57-64)
Gaunt's prophecy, that was!

Alexandrovich

This Week. It's the general 'tielessness' which depresses me. Okay, I'm old fashioned but does Andrew Neil have to look like Harry Hill without the pens? You'd think that a man vain enough to have a hair transplant could lift his head from his shoulders and sit up straight. And why doesn't MP get it over with and sit on DA's lap?

daniel maris

I think Diane Abbot has a v. breathy intonation, partly an air-swallower I think, which coincidentally I think Fraser is as well. He does lack a bit of punch, but then I guess he's a print journalist.

Andrew Neil has one of the best voices going on TV - and really does pack a punch. Isn't he frae Glasgae?

EC

Frank P, "I always have difficulty with his burred, plummy Scots accent and speech impediment at the best of times."

Can plums be coddled?

That might explain the warm burr and faltering delivery. If unchecked this practice could also lead, alarmingly, to a serious impairment affecting the legs.

Doctors have identified just such a syndrome which is characterised by an awkward gait, sudden shifts in direction and a subsequent state of denial.

They call this condition "praevaricatus neatherismus" or more popularly Neather-gait.

This condition can usually only be cured by the patient himself by the application of a cathartic blog post.

Alexandrovich

Daniel Maris: "Andrew Neil has one of the best voices going on TV - and really does pack a punch."
You'll have to forgive me - and all the Jock posters on here - but, taking an interest in politics, I'm sick to the back teeth of that accent.
Nothing personal you understand.

Nicholas

A good editorial in this week's Speccie, noticeably shifting the ground from d'Ancona which has made me re-consider cancelling my subscription in response to the shock horror of Ms Hill's republicanism (yes, I know, fickle).

The letter from Professor Philip Murphy of the Institute of Commonwealth Studies made me smile too. Comparing Labour's treasonous behaviour with the KGB to Conservative connections to South Africa's apartheid regime. Professor Murphy's insistence on refrain from moral judgements being made in hindsight collides rather noisily with New Labour and the Left's propensity to do just that (unless it concerns their own behaviour where a convenient veil is drawn). Special pleading or attempting to strike a reasonable balance? In this day and age of Gramski paranoia it is difficult to tell.

Verity

EC - "Doctors have identified just such a syndrome which is characterised by an awkward gait, sudden shifts in direction and a subsequent state of denial.

“They call this condition 'praevaricatus neatherismus' or more popularly Neather-gait.”

Brill.

Verity

In response to Cameron having banned a Tory from the party for asking why there weren't more English names on the short lists, a gentleman from Banff, Scotland called Howard Ericson posted this in Mailonline:

"In an article published in the Guardian newspaper on May 13, 2007, Mr Cameron said, "Not for the first time, I found myself thinking that it is mainstream Britain which needs to integrate more with the British Asian way of life, not the other way around."

You deniers, do you still think Cameron's a Tory and not the heir to Blair?

Frank P

EC

Heh, heh, heh. I just thought that his tongue was too big for his mouth. You'll note that I refrained from speculating on why it was swollen, or where it had been employed of late and in light of your ingenious diagnosis I'm relieved that I did. However I fear he will refuse the Doctor's prescription. A hopeless case.