Elected police commissioners are a test of whether the Tories are serious or not about their agenda

DavidDP

"The idea that you are not a proper democratic society because the police commissioner is accountable to the public via the ballot box is obviously nonsense. "

I think, actually, you do a dis-service to the argument. I don't aree with Orde, but there are arguments about the appropriateness of certain structures within certain types of institutions which can't simply be dismissed as "obvious nonsense"
While I appreciate that in the more limited space of the print edition such shorthand might be neccessary, I think it a pity that in the infinite space of this blog a more considered, and thus more robust, approach is taken.

oldtimer

Quite!

Let them resign.

dilys

The Met was(is) a New Labour police force. The police should be accountable to the public they serve.

Rick Muir

I agree we need more accountability - but not with the method.

If you codify operational independence - what is for politicians and what is for police officers - you can avoid most of the dangers of 'politicisation' that Sir Hugh raises.

However a single elected commissioner for a whole force area seems to me to be problematic in three ways: it concentrates too much power in one person's hands, on a low turnout for an election to a remote post you risk extremist capture, and having one person responsible for police strategy for the whole of Thames Valley or the West Midlands is setting up accountability at just far too remote a level.

It would be better to give local authorities the budgets (from the police precept) to commission policing for towns, boroughs and rural areas. That would strengthen accountability while avoiding all three of those problems.

A report on this by me from ippr is out next thursday.

Phillip

The act of Hugh Orde making the statement is in its self justification of the policy.

Walsingham's Ghost

Sir Hugh 'Janus' Orde's comments would be laughable if not for the fact that he actually believes the nonsense he is spouting. He is rapidly becoming as disreputable as that other pillar of our illustrious Police Force, Sir Ian Blair.

The Tories must drive this initiative through and get policing in this country back on an even keel.

WG

kein

can someone please explain to me how democratically accountable mr orde is ?
is not ACPO a private business and do they not pay his wages by charging police forces for there "services".is he not a civilian involved in pushing ACPO's own political agenda.

Simon Smethurst-McIntyre

The argument that giving locally elected officials control creates a police state is totally flawed. Under the current situation police forces are accountable to Whitehall targets and objectives so how is that not putting the police under political influence? If anything central control is more of a police state than any level of local control could be.

Verity

“Orde has warned that senior police officers will resign …”. Oh, boo hoo! Senior police officers are part of the problem. In fact, let’s give them all early retirement and start fresh, with public service-oriented individuals.

Orde again: “Even the perception that the police service of this country… is under any political influence, I think that suggests you cannot argue that you are a proper democratic society.”

Remind me again about how that works, Sir Hugh? A true democracy has everyone in power appointed rather than elected? Oh. I see. Kind of like the EU? How can getting a job by being voted in, appointed by the citizenry, be called being under “political influence”?

The police will “close ranks”. Well lah-di-dah. Who cares what a bunch of newly unemployed ex-police officers do?

As I’ve said before, I lived in a big (pop 4.5m) city in the US that had elected police chiefs, and it works. When they’re elected, police chiefs are on the side of the citizens, not the politicians, as it’s the citizens who vote to keep them or chuck them out. It works.

General Zod

The police are already politicised. Happy retirement, Sir Hugh.

Glen Green

"There will be suggestions that elected police commissioners will lead to political opponents being arrested"

Only by youngsters whose only knowledge of political parties has been built up over the past 12 years of a Labour administration. Everyone else will know that this is complete nonsense.

DZ

Perhaps the Mayor of London should be asked for a few ideas on removing police commissioners.

denis cooper

I hope that the headline isn't true, because I have deep reservations about this particular localising proposal.

Firstly my "local" police force is not "local"; it's Thames Valley Police, covering three counties plus Milton Keynes.

I question whether it would be possible to have a meaningful direct election of a Chief Constable for a force covering such a large and diverse geographical area.

I could see it if the people in my town were directly electing a Chief Constable for our local town force, if it was brought back into existence, but not for a regional force.

Secondly, even if we were electing somebody to run a really local town force, with its own budget mainly raised from local taxes, I would question how the candidates would be nominated, what would be the criteria for eligibility, and how the election would be run.

I would hate to see an election where candidates for Chief Constable were being endorsed by political parties - either openly:

"Vote for X, the Labour candidate to run your police"

"Vote for Y, the Conservative candidate for Chief Constable"

or covertly.

Thirdly, it has long been the case that Chief Constables are appointed by Police Authorities made up partly of councillors elected across the area, plus magistrates and others. Apart from the Met Commissioner, who was always appointed by the Home Secretary - I'm not quite sure who appoints him now.

I'd rather see a) these regional police forces broken up into genuinely local police forces; and b) a review of the composition and operation of the police authorities to bring them in closer touch with the general public.

I also think it would be a good idea if the public had the right to directly "recall" a Chief Constable - ie, if say 10% of the registered electors signed a formal petition expressing no confidence in the incumbent officer then he would have to resign - but I'd rather that the appointment of his replacement was still made indirectly.

davidke

The ones who will resign are the ones we WANT to resign. Good riddance.

HFC

I heard Orde this morning. I simply wondered at the bare-faced politicking of a politically appointed copper griping at the possibility that he and all his kind could become answerable to the population that provides his comforable life-style. As Mandelson might have said, he is one of a bunch of chumps.

In2minds

“the police, a totally unreformed public service” - that line says it all.

Chris lancashire

The Police service is long overdue for tackling. The lack of accountability, the paperpushing, the ridiculous pension and retirement entitlements and, above all, the attitude to the public they are supposed to serve require addressing.

I do not know whether elected chiefs will answer all these but it must be better than where we are.

And finally, the reduction in the number of police authorities needs addressing at the same time.

John Moss

Elected Mayors directing local police would be my preference.

Nicholas

Sir Hugh Orde has demonstrated the very issue he says he is concerned about by making, in effect, a political statement.

Had he raised this as an issue in his official capacity (although I think the status of ACPO from a democratic perspective warrants scrutiny), with the standing government rather than the media, and in response to the standing government's policy proposals for policing then that would be perfectly understandable.

Instead he has raised publically a political issue in response to a policy proposal from HM Opposition, whilst serving under a New Labour government and months from a General Election. On the face of it Sir Hugh Orde appears to be politicking on behalf of New Labour or ACPO, either of which is inappropriate and unacceptable. It speaks volumes about how the police service has been transformed under New Labour for him to even consider that he has any right to do this. He is a public servant, charged with maintaining the law, and should remain impartial and apolitical. It is not for Sir Hugh Orde or ACPO to publically raise questions about policies towards law and order but by doing so he and they have demonstrated exactly why a root and branch review of policing by a new government is so badly needed.

He should be sacked.

And the fact that less concern is shown about this than HRH Prince Charles' attributed comments on education shows just how entrenched the broader New Labour/leftist establishment has become. Cameron will need to decontaminate the civil service and quangos or face their obstruction to everything he tries to do.

Philip Walker

DavidDP: Orde's argument was more broad than that. He appeared to be saying that any sort of democratic accountability to politicians was beyond the pale. It was worrying to think that a former chief copper and Acpo man is spouting such arrant nonsense: and implicitly accusing the US of failing to be a democratic country, by the way.

His only reasonable point was that locally-accountable police chiefs might not spend the resources needed on national priorities, like terrorism. (His other example of a dangerous rapist is less clear.) I would support setting up a British version of the FBI, a sort of national investigative squad, to do the national security kind of work. Anything local, though, should belong to a local force.

Editor/James: In the middle sentence of the third paragraph, "effect" should read "affect".

David Bouvier

Under our current arrangements, many of us have a strong sense that our police are at times under political influence, and note that the Home Office schwerpunkt - the "Anti-Terrorist Police" - recently arrested the political opposition on tendentious charges.

Presumably a local commissioner would have the same relationship with the Chief Constable as the Home Secretary now has with the Met - excluding operational decision-making, but with rather less power of patronage or intimidation.

Anyway, the police tail must not wag the democratic dog. If they want to resign that is up to them. That is an bureaucratic threat not an argument against policy. And in the end, we might be better off loosing the dead wood that would resist democratic accountability anyhow. It is not clear that the would be any lack of candidates to step up.

We could start making a list of ones we hope go - the chap in Wales who thinks that Welsh jokes and speeding are the most important issues his force should address would be top of my list.

Rhoda Klapp

Labour have put in place all the mechanisms of a police state, obviously thinking that no government ever will use them for evil. What we need to hear from the tories is that they would dismantle the combination of anti-terrorist laws and rights of entry and surveillance. As ACPO supported or acquiesced to them all, it seems they will need to be dismantled too, or brought into line with the agenda of freedom.

David Bouvier

Police authorities anyway are trussed up like chickens in targets, policies and priorities that are set by Whitehall equalitarians.

Reformed police authorities comprising directly or indirectly elected representatives is an alternative model.

What must be broken is the dead hand of Whitehall (or Marsham Street actually)

echo34

ask damian green about non-political police policies.

denis cooper

I wouldn't assume that either direct election or an alternative method of appointment would immediately produce a new generation of police chiefs with a better attitude towards the public.

In the first instance they could only be elected or appointed from the existing pool of senior sworn officers, who have all received a certain kind of training and will tend to have a certain way of thinking.

What's more the training of senior police officers is now being harmonised across the EU through CEPOL, the European Police College at Bramshill:

http://www.cepol.europa.eu/fileadmin/website/About_CEPOL/2005681jha.pdf

"Whereas:

(1) At its meeting in Tampere on 15 and 16 October 1999, the European Council agreed that a European Police College, hereinafter referred to as ‘CEPOL’, should be established to train senior officers of police forces.

(2) The European Police College was established by Council Decision 2000/820/JHA"

"Article 4 - Seat

The seat of CEPOL shall be in Bramshill, United Kingdom."

"Article 5 - Purpose

The aim of CEPOL shall be to help train the senior police officers of the Member States by optimising cooperation between CEPOL’s various components. It shall support and develop a European approach to the main problems facing Member States in the fight against crime, crime prevention, and the maintenance of law and order and public security, in particular the cross-border dimensions of those problems."

Still, best not to bang on about the EU.

JohnPage

He's a big cheese, but he's not called "Sir Huge"!

Sir Graphus

Breathtaking Gall from Orde.

Mind you, the quickest way to Sharia law in this country will be via elected police chiefs.

You think that elected chief-rozzers will have them serving their voters, clearing up burglaries, rather than serving their political masters, enforcing social engineering. But not everywhere is a leafy middle class area that hasn’t seen a copper in years.

How many people will really be bothered to vote? Council election turnout is bad enough. Where there’s low turnout, then extremists, whose supporters are a bit more enthusiastic about voting, can get their views carried more easily. It always happens. Postal votes will carry more weight too. Fraud is inevitable. You want Sharia law? Get your man elected Chief of Police.

YouCannotBeSerious!

Huge Orde? With a name like that, I'd give him a job for life!

Cuffleyburgers

The principal of directly elected police chiefs is a good one, and their job description must reflect the peelian principles.

The current situation in which the world's most admired police force has been reduced to a bunch of paramilitary thigs at the service of the ruling party is clearly unacceptable - I exaggerate but there is no doubt whatsoever that the police have lost the respect of the public, and policing by consent has given way to policing by authoritarian diktat.

Worse the police seem actively to concentrate on making life a misery for the essentially decent majority and not on the more dangerous and difficult work of tackling the true lawbreakers who make life a misery.

As usual in the case of labour's incompetence, it is the poor, supposedly their core vote, who suffer most, but everybody suffers a fair amount.

Finally Orde's highly political, and in fact partisan, intervention is disgraceful as well as stupid and ill-thought-through.

He should go.

Typical labour apparachik though, he won't.

Verity

John Moss – No. Being a police chief is not some little extra task of a mayor. It’s a full time, on-call-24-hours-a-day job.

Well said, Nicholas! I agree with every word.

My own experience is of Texas, and chiefs of police strive to serve the communities that voted them in. That’s partly, of course, out of a sense of duty and dedication to law and order, and also self-interest, in that they want to get voted in again at the next election. The police service where I lived was outstanding.

What is more, most police chiefs believe in an armed citizenry. They don’t try to hug all the control to themselves.

If Britain had elected police chiefs, you would see lawlessness decline at a rate of knots.

In tandem with this, I would recommend electing judges. This way, the electorate gets the kind of people they want on the bench, and not political appointees being repaid for political favours granted, as in Britain.

Elected police chiefs and elected judges. Sit back and watch the scenery shift before your very eyes.

Tom Pride

Of course under the current New Labour Establishment we would never have political interference with the “operational independence” of the police.

No primary focus on politically incorrect crimes such as family violence, date rape and hate or revenue generating offences such as speeding. No increasing use of “fixed penalties” and ASBOs so avoiding the inconvenience of proving guilt in a criminal court and in breach of the Bill of Rights. No ignoring minority religious groups inciting violence and murder. And as for arresting an Opposition MP under the pretext of National Security for simply embarrassing the Government?

I heard Sir Huge Orde and was bowled over by his arrogance, ignorance and political partiality. Another member of the New Labour Establishment to be flushed out in Week One, sans severance pay, in a US style change of administration.

Verity

Oh, and I forgot in my last post, the right of the citizen to bear arms. Contrary to the police attitude in Britain, the police in gun-bearing states in the US think this is perfectly normal.

In the city I lived in, the police were giving free lessons in shooting and gun maintenance for citizens.

Dr Blue

This rather makes the case for elected police chiefs very well.

Could we also get elected local mayors, prosecutors and health chiefs?

strapworld

As a former police officer may I just say this. IF, and I doubt it, that Chief Constables resign as Orde suggests, then their places will be filled by so many hopefuls! Just consider football managers. One is sacked and before he leaves his office, would be managers are already offering their services!

Now I would urge the Conservative Party to consider what brought about the 1962 Royal Commission. Basically amongst issues of Rhino Whips in Sheffield etcm there was a MAJOR problem with corruption and Watch Committee's. The main recommendation of that Royal Commission was to reduce the number of Borough/Town/City Police Forces into 43 based upon County Structures. There have been a few changes since then but, in the main, the Police have maintained that structure.

that Royal Commission looked into a National Police Force and by a majority decision decided against recommending that.

The Conservatives are considering locally elected Police Chiefs. Local Police Forces. It is beginning to look very much like the old system but based on the French structure.

Orde does have a point, when he argues against political interference. There it has always been there. Remember that during the miners strike the police were called Maggie's Troops- and with some justification- Remember that the Conservatives promised and did give the police the massive pay increase recommended by the Lord Edmund Davies Report into Police Pay and Conditions asked for by James Callaghan the Prime Minister. But Callaghan, who was the Police Federation of England and Wales very first parliamentary adviser, would only bring in the massive pay increase advocated by Lord Edmund Davies in stages. Maggie, as I mentioned, promised to pay the whole amount when elected. She was then assured that every police officer and their families voted Conservative!

That said, There is no doubt that Blair politicised the police far more than anyone before, and also reduced their effectiveness by bringing in the PCSO's etc.

I do believe that for policing to succeed and return to what was the traditional method of policing. IS by policing by consent of the people. I believe that consent can only occur if a Royal Commission into Policing is called for by The Conservative Party. Such a Commission would take evidence from anyone and everyone and make recommendations.

The suggestion for locally elected Police Chiefs should be independently debated, as should a National Police Force etc.

Policing is far too important to be played around with by any political party. It would be a very brave leader who would recommend a Royal Commission and wait for two or three years for it to report. BUT surely if we really want our police to be as effective and responsive as before it is necessary that the voice of the people be heard, both left, right, green or orange!

Think again Cameron and be brave! I know you will find that almost impossible but tinkering will not help but just hinder what is need of a great public debate.

David Lindsay

Having effectively legalised cannabis and lowered the age of consent to 13, both without reference to Parliament, they know where the door is. Good riddance.

Snowman

Nicholas, Verity and Rick Muir sum it up brilliantly, and the arguments put forward by those in favour of electing police commissioners seem sound, workable and reflect more how policing should be run in a democracy. Hard to know how far the Tories will go, but the idea of Philip Walker appeals, too. Local policing and the chasing of terrorists aren’t good bedfellows. A version of the FBI type of a set-up should be considered. Sir Hugh’s intervention doesn’t seem warranted, but is hardly surprising. It’s harder to appease the community than a bunch of politicians.

terence patrick hewett

'Allo, 'Allo, 'Allo; wots orl this 'ere. It's you having your collar felt Sir Hugh. It's a fair cop gov.

Verity

Snowman says "Hard to know how far the Tories will go".

No it's not. If Dave is still Leader, they won't go anywhere. It's very comfortable as it is for the rulers.

Marcher Baron

I listened to Sir Hugh on the radio; I fell about laughing when he claimed that elected commissioners would "politicise the police". That's very rich considering how politically correct the police "service" - it's no longer a force - has become. Let's go back to Peel's principles of policing and make those in charge accountable for failing to deliver. Those police who don't like that idea are welcome to resign; they're unlikely to be the sort who will bring lustre to the force.

Verity

Oi! Where's Frank P?

Hugh

In this debate Hannan and Carswell have useful practical commentd in "The Plan" pp 53-60. and pp 172-176.
Every serious student of the upcoming changes will find it a useful guide I suspect.

pritpip

The finest argument for elected police commissioners is in the report "Partners in Crime" by the Cameroon think-tank Policy Exchange. It was published two weeks ago. It comprehensively deals with all the criticisms of elected commissioners and emphasises the real need for accountability in policing. They suggest that Commissioners should run as independents, and recommend a triple lock of safeguards - pre-qualification (who'd want a convicted murderer as commissioner!), an oath of office (common with many public offices), and recall elections where they breach these standards. Best of all they recommend a Commissioner for each town, rather than one per force area, which doesn't seem very localist. The staggering thing about Orde’s comments is his arrogant dismissal of local concerns like vandalism and anti-social behaviour, recommending merged forces that would be even more remote from communities. Please do resign Sir Hugh and enjoy your two pensions – your colleagues who haven’t reached pensionable age are not in such fortunate circumstances, and won’t be going anywhere. When is someone going to tackle the private company in Labour’s pocket that is ACPO?

TGF UKIP

First of all it was the DPP Starmer misbehaving and having a pop at the Tories and now it's Orde. The New Labour law enforcement establishment is plainly intent on furnishing their political paymasters with as much ammo as they can.

ACPO and the senior levels of the police now appear to be riddled by Common Purpose as much as they ever were by the Freemasons and to a far more sinister end.

In the increasingly unlikely event that the Tories win the GE, they should immediately withdraw all government funding from ACPO ban all civil service interface and tell Chief Constables that if they bung money to it from their own budgets they will be slashed by an equivalent amount and ACPO, an entirely New Labour construct, will wither away within months.

Nicholas

TGF UKIP, I despair that the Tories will tackle ACPO as you suggest (they should) but perhaps Orde's comments will make the Tory Shadow Minister for Policing think again about how he approaches the immense task of improving policing in Britain and getting it back to doing what it was intended to do in the first place. ACPO will be one the major obstructions to this because under New Labour it has grown into such a powerful but ultimately unhealthy junta.

There is no version control on ACPO's Statement of Purpose or Objectives but the downloadable documents now have (Option 2) in brackets and appear to emphasise their central leadership role more than I recall from previous scrutiny. This highlights one of the problems. Just how can "mission creep" in such "independent" organisations be controlled? Who is accountable for just what ACPO does and thinks it does? Reading the documents it is clear that accountability for this organisation is envisaged as being self-policed. There is a Code of Ethics but it is not clear by whom, how or in what circumstances this will be monitored or policed.

I do urge fellow Coffee Housers interested in this subject to take a long hard look at the ACPO website and to note the many intriguing questions its self-aggrandising statements raise.

Nicholas

PS This is also relevant. It is difficult to track the subsequent changes in the avalanche of legislation, regulation and small print launched by New Labour. I look forward to a thorough and penetrating examination of ACPO's rise under New Labour and the implications for our democracy.

http://tinyurl.com/ygv97ln

daniel maris

The Police have become highly politicised over recent years, in the sense that they have been helping shape the political agenda and not just doing what their political masters tell them to (which they have always done).

Nicholas

From the Telegraph, http://tinyurl.com/y8sgjkg

Sir Hugh Orde uses words chillingly resonant of New Labour speak. The usual scaremongering by using a few code words to dog-whistle the extreme risks which are being used to justify the day to day exceeding and extending of powers:-

"Sir Hugh argues that: “There will be no votes in protecting people from terrorism, from organised crime and from serial rapists that cross the country because they won’t be local and they won’t get you votes.”"

A pattern emerges. That might have been said by Hoon. Just how many New Labour apparatchiks are there in the police service? How many of these unelected, unaccountable chief police officers in ACPO are Common Purpose graduates?

Bilbo

Hugh Orde's ignorance is astonishing - it doesn't have to be local policing OR national policing. It can be both. Two tier policing, like they operate in most other countries frankly, tackles both. Orde and his greedy cronies are running scared of the local end of policing being held to account for the first time since the old watch committees. How many chief constables have been sacked in the last decade? None. How many have been allowed to retire with a full pension after some disaster? Eight. Something is wrong in the balance here - and no other part of the public sector is so unaccountable.

Robin

Sir Huge is absolutely right. To describe in your article that the police service is 'totally unreformed' is frankly nonsense. If there's a more inspected public service with higher levels of public scrutiny, I'd like to see it.

Regrettably the world is full of ill-informed commentators writing about things they no little about - Sir Huge is not one of these.

Brian Woods

Orde was interviewed by Adam Boulton at lunchtime today and backtracked relentlessly. He indicated he didn't mean he'd resign, as he no longer ran a police force, but he thought others might. When asked directly what was wrong with someone having oversight as an elected commissioner he said his complaint was they didn't have the detail yet. Bit crazy to threaten resignation over that. And then the killer - why hasn't the Met Commissioner resigned when they have an elected commissioner in the shape of the mayor? Gulp. Stutter. "Er, Blair resigned he wasn't sacked" said Orde. Of course, Sir Hugh - pension protection again. I never thought I’d say this but I’d like to see more of Orde on the airwaves: he simply can’t stand up under pressure.

Nicholas

"Regrettably the world is full of ill-informed commentators writing about things they no little about"

Except that in this case I venture that I do know more about it than you do, Robin, and in all probability perhaps as much if not more than Sir "Huge". Disagreement is no basis for presuming that the dissenting arguments are made in ignorance or without first hand experience of the issues, although I realise that is the reality often faced when going up against the communist bloc in this country.

Harpreet

It is time for Orde and the rest of the Labour supporting public sector elite to resign anyway. He has learnt nothing from Ian Blair's demise.

I saw his dreadful Adam Boulton interview too. One thing that puzzled me was Orde said he couldn't resign as he was already retired from the police. If that is correct, why is he still wearing a police uniform?