There are moral absolutes: aspects of Sharia are barbaric

John Richardson

Credit where credit's due.

More of the same from Mr Blackburn.
For years Tachel has campaigned to reduce the age of 'consent',for homosexual sex, to fourteen years.
This is who he is. Check the 'Outrage' website if you wish moderator. It shouldn't take long.

I mean, credit where credit's due, the Gestapo DID put rapists and serial killers into Aushwitz. As well.
Credit where credit's due. The Mafia will be most annoyed if you steal money from them.

Credit where credit's due after all.
We all share common ground don't we ?
No need to be nasty.
Don't be negative.
Our current Society has been built on compromise and mutual 'respekt'.
Credit where credit's due.

porkbelly

"Sharia is an attack on Islam"??? Shome mishtake surely?

Diogenes

Two very different points are being conflated here. (Indeed, this may be the message you are trying to get across.)

1) Sharia law is in places really very nasty.

2) Christianity is at least somewhat dubious and should not be allowed to impose its values on those who do not accept its tenets.

Both good points. Right now, however, pragmatically, 1) seems to me a lot more pressing than 2).

Michael Booth

Oh come on stop sitting on the fence with the 'aspects' bit - Sharia Law has nothing to do with our country's beliefs, culture, law, understanding of liberty or aspiration.

Verity

An outstanding post by any measure, David Blackburn!

In the maltreatment of women catalogue, we must also include polygamy, a very abnormal and cruel construct. This is in the service of breeding warriors for Allah. (The law about adultery only extends to women, as far as I can judge. I’ve never read of a man being stoned for adultery. Given that Mo gave men an open pass for as many women as they like, with four wives and unlimited concubines “as long as he can afford them”, no need to bother. He was all heart.)

There is also the slave issue. Muslims still keep slaves, although in Britain, sometimes a daughter-in-law fulfills that function. But they are notorious for importing people from very poor countries and then withholding their little pittances of wages, promising, “You'd only spend it. I’m putting it in the bank for you.”

Michael Booth

Have to agree though, Tatchell does not make a good case for disestablishment, and the C of E is not exactly an oppresser, is it?

John Moss

I've been saying this since 2001.

Fundamentalist Islam is homophobic, racist, sexist and barbaric to animals, but the faith does not allow "the words of the Prophet" to be challenged or "re-interpretted" in any way. Which is odd really, because those who propound fundamentalist views seem to have no problem "re-interpretting" things to allow suicide bombings and I am pretty sure there was no TNT around at Mohammed's time!

Fundamentalist Islam and the Sharia Law which forgives it has no place on earth in the 21st century.

Edward

Sharia is an attack on Islam, Muslims and enlightned society?

This is incoherent.

Edward

Sharia is an attack on Islam, Muslims and enlightened society.

No wonder Blackburn did not get Fort Hood.

salieri

This is news?

Edward Palmer

Any progress towards limiting the influence of any religion in schools would be useful. Adults may believe freely whatever nonsense they like - it's the indoctrination of children I abhor, whether it's Christian or another religion. Sharia law is totally incompatible with British values and must be resisted, but let's sort out the insidious corruption of innocents too.

David Ossitt

David Blackburn.

“Somalia is an extreme example of the Sharia oppression that exists in large parts of the Muslim world. As ever, Muslim women are often the main victims.”

Here we go again; by stating that Somalia is an extreme example, implies that most areas under Muslim control are moderate and gentle and are not oppressive, that Sharia law is as kind and as benevolent as European laws.

This is overcooked codswallop; the Muslim world and Sharia law has nothing to teach us in the enlightened west, other than that we must always be on our guard against its spreading influence.

old fogey

Like Porkbelly I was dumbfounded with the theory " sharia is an attack on Islam, Moslems....". Such an argument is worthy of Tony Blair at his most anodyne. We are used to being deceived and patronised by our political leaders concerning the Islamic problem, but when journalists in a conservative paper start to take the ostrich position then we are in trouble.

dilys

No faith does dominate government. If the Cof E did the PM moral compass would have functioned more accurately.

stillvotingBNP

You forgot the usual waffle about the "tiny minority" of extreme muslims, "islam means peace", somali immigrants enrich our culture, etc, etc.

The Church of Irrelevance? Who cares!?

Occasional Ostrich

David Ossitt
November 20th, 2009 7:47pm

Glad I read your comment to the end; at the outset I wasn't sure which direction you were going, but your conclusion is absolutely spot-on.

General Zod

is that in the same category as the "tiny minority of BNP racists"?

Sharia is utterly abhorrent to morality and an insult to the intelligence. If it were not so cruel, it would be absurd, with laws such as that which counts a woman's evidence as half that of a man.

Beer Moth

"Sharia is an attack on Islam..."

Splendid. Good luck with separating the two.

Jim Dyson

This article is a cop out. All other comments have said why it is much more coherently than I ever could. I was born and brought up in a city that is dominated by Muslims and I'm literally scared of what my life may be like in ten years. Least people are talking about things like this, 5 years a go, we'd all have been aplologising for eachothers comments. Hope I am making some sense.

Verity

I was so astounded that David was attacking any issue of Islam that I missed where he was apparently trying to say that shariah was not really an integral part of this belief system.

Shariah is the blood which courses through every cell of the body of Islam and is the direct word from head office. Always was.

Herbert Thornton

Mr Blackburn's piece reminds me somewhat of the three monkeys' exhortation - "Speak not, see not, hear not evil" - but with one of the monkeys sneaking a momentary peep and spotting just a bit of it.

A much more realistic commentary is to be found here -

http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-peaceful-majority-may-be-dangerous.html

TGF UKIP

Being beastly to Sharia - the Archbishop of Canterbury would be horrified with this post.

Leo McKinstry

If Sharia is an attack on Islam, then why do reputable opinion polls show more than 40 per cent of Muslims supporting its implementation in Britain? Why are quasi-official Sharia Courts now flourishing in Muslim neighbourhoods across the country? There were at least 86 of them at the last count, their establishment overseen enthusiastically by mosques and Muslim leaders who obviously regard Sharia as a bulwark of Islam.

Holly ......

As in Iran, this is a generational thing.
This is horrific to us, however we DO have an appauling record on domestic violence and people in this country DO kill their spouses.Religion/faith has nothing to do with it really.
We also have to endure the Harriet Harmans of this world who, for reasons only known to themselves, believe their gender is better or worse treated than the other.So bring in all manner of stuff that makes neither truly equal.
The stoning to death of women is not done because they are a women, it is because the man wants rid of her, and divorce is not an option.Ex's can be such a drag, what if she goes on to marry someone else? That would be an insult to his ego.
If I had a choice(at the time) of ending my last marriage with the divorce,(1979)or chucking rocks at him...I would have chucked rocks at the no good shit.
Not all women are killed and not all the men are killers.
We do not like it when Europe interferes with our country so we should not go around the world doing what we hate.
They as a people are the ONLY ones who can sort this out long term and we should leave them to it.
As in Iran, sadly MANY will be killed, but they can not kill everybody,hope is with the young,those in power now will grow old and die,while the young wait to inherit and teach their children well.

AAE

"Sharia is an attack on Islam, Muslims and enlightened society" is a ridiculous conflation of mutually opposed worldviews, and as incoherent as others have well noted.
Reminds me of the news conference which the Metropolitan Police held before we even knew the extent of the horrors of the July bombings in London 5 years ago, when Brian Paddick prefaced his statement with a homily about how Islam was a religion of peace. Even had one subscribed to such guff, that day should surely have rubbed platiduninous noses in stench of reality.

Roy Smith

Sharia is part and parcel of the Muslim crackpot ideology system. Any country allowing the immigration of these brain addled people into their midst is about as stupid as taking up dope with the intention of it bettering their life. Once a citizen they have to be courted for their vote and promises made for the continuation of their insidious practices and nauseating delusions. This, whilst they continue to denigrate the culture and everything their host country can provide, with the small exception of the cash for their living, and the provision for their further expansion provided free of obligation.

Verity

Holly - the regulars here know that I am always pleasant, not to say emollient .. violence in Iran is NOT a generational thing. The generation that was there before the bonkers mullahs took the US Embassy (because Jimmy Cahduh was too stupid to know what to do, even with seasoned advice) is now the older generation, and they are the ones who lived in freedom under the Shah.

“…however we DO have an appauling record on domestic violence…”. And spelling.

“The stoning to death of women is not done because they are a women, it is because the man wants rid of her, and divorce is not an option.”

Wha’? Divorce is not an option? Not even if the man says “I divorce you” three times in front of witnesses? Are you sure? In sharia, as you clearly well know, Holly, that’s a legal divorce. Ten seconds.

Are you claiming that men who couldn’t say “I divorce you” three times in front of witnesses (ten seconds) always have the option of getting a hole in a public street dug, their would-be ex buried in it up to her neck and have public passers by throw rocks at her until she’s dead ... ?

Isn’t this a bit showy, given the alternative to saying “I divorce you” three times?

Here’s one more stupid contribution, Holly: “As in Iran, sadly MANY will be killed, but they can not kill everybody,hope is with the young,those in power now will grow old and die,while the young wait to inherit and teach their children well.” Given that those who illegally grabbed the US embassy are now in late middle age, what the hell are they going to “teach their children well”?

Little manipulators like you really irritate me.

Fergus Pickering

Islam is primarily, and obviously, a religion of war. Christianity is a religion of peace. Christ, though obviously a man with a temper, said that the peacemakers were blessed. Mohammed, on the other hand, was a warrior. Is it not the duty of the devout Muslim to slay the unbeliever? Oh, and don't anybody quote the OT at me. The OT is not a Christian book.

Hysteria

um.... is this an existential threat to our nation and way of life? In which case sending our armed forces to combat this in various theatres makes sense.

Or do we withdraw, impose much stricter controls and not get involved. Do we send our young men to die for the sake of oppressed women in far off places?

Counter Seacole Jihad

Counter Jihad

1 To resist further Islamization of Western countries by eliminating Muslim immigration, refusing any special accommodations for Islam in our public spaces and institutions, and forbidding intrusive public displays of Islamic practices.

2. To contain Islam within the borders of existing Muslim-majority nations, deporting all Muslim criminals and those who are unable or unwilling to assimilate completely into the cultures of their adopted countries.

3. To end all foreign aid and other forms of subsidy to the economies of Muslim nations.

4. To develop a grassroots network that will replace the existing political class in our countries and eliminate the reigning multicultural ideology, which enables Islamization and will cause the destruction of Western Civilization if left in place.

YA

"Sharia is an attack on Islam, Muslims.." is an attempt to play clever demagogical operator, armed by Western "sophistication" and "divide and rule". C'mon be realistic. That is the same as to try to convince crocodile that his teeth are his enemies.

Face the truth - political Islam and Sharia are antithetical to free society. Islam is inseparable mix of clerical fasicsm and tribal death cult. Muslims who feel that they are victims and hostages of this inhumane retrograde socium, - should leave it, and others should leave free world.
Mass apostasy is the only way out.

Long live free speech, free woman, and secular order. Give us de-Islamization now (..oh and better informed journalism please).

YA

"..stoning, are particularly brutal and cruel.."

Stoning is a way of ritualistic killing having roots in the darkness of anthropoid evolution. Let university professors argue that the main thrust towards modern humans was bi-pedalism or whatever. Human sacrifices, mob murders by stoning, and cannibalism are not less important.

The creature who first used a stone to kill a rival, was a giant of thought and action, dwarfing Groves, Fermi and Oppenheimer by megaton times.

Creatures who use stoning as punishment today, only follow the path of their ancestors. They are exhibits confirming the reality of anthropoid evolution, the reality of darkness from where we came. And yes, because they still do it - they belong to the past.

Geoff Miller

"Sharia is an attack on Islam, Muslims and enlightened society."

Eh? Sharia IS Islam.

Sharia courts operate in the UK, the Archbishop of Canterbury welcomes it, Lloyds bank have Sharia compliant mortgages, non-muslim children are forced to eat halal food at school - its all around us.

What planet are you from?

As long as we have self deluding Liberals in positions of influence we are lost.

Liberals must either have a mental illness, be craven cowards or take mind altering drugs.

Mr Blackburn you are a Dhimmi.

English Electric

Like others, I'm baffled by the comment: 'Sharia is an attack on Islam, Muslims and enlightened society.' Sharia is an important aspect of Islam. It's not one we like and many enlightened Muslims reject it. But it is an aspect of it nonetheless and commentators should stop prevaricating.

Tatchell's attack on Christianity is another example of the failure of our liberal elite in tackling the problems that Islam brings. Liberal commentators feel apologetic about criticising Islam because it makes them feel racist. So, they attack other creeds along the way.

Beer Moth

Holly......

Great post. You be sure to come back and tell us how some of your other divorces panned out.

Holly ......

Where did all the protesters come from in Iran? The moon?
They were born and raised in Iran,educated in Iran and STOOD UP to the leaders!
It IS generational.
How many generations ago did women get the vote in this country? Did people die for that?
Children no longer go up chimneys, gays & lesbians now have rights.... The young...change things....over generations.
Has Britain ALWAYS been the way it is today..NO.
VERITY YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS CORRECT EITHER.

Holly ......

Beer Moth..divorced onced at nineteen, re married at twenty nine....still married to Mr Holly...twenty years 2 June 2010.
Cards & flowers welcomed.
Holly
xx

Ken

@Verity: "..they are the ones who lived in freedom under the Shah"

..err... rewriting history are you. The Shah was a nasty dictator with a particularly insidious secret police force as I'm sure the Iranians would be the first to remind you.

That said Sharia is Islam and the West is plainly suicidal if it persists in our society, in tolerating any aspect of a time-warped belief and its foam-flecked propagators.

Moslems must conform to our culture or return to whence they came, no ifs, no buts.

Vulture

@David Blackburn: 'Aspects of Sharia are barbaric'.
As in:
Bishop: 'I'm afraid you have a bad egg'.
Curate: 'Oh, no, my Lord - I assure you - parts of it are quite excellent'.

Do wake up and smell the blood, you fatuous Liberal nitwit.

logdon

"Sharia is an attack on Islam, Muslims and enlightened society. "

Other posters have commented but really, David this is the biggest canard your culturaly relative mind has ever come up with.

Shariah is Islam. Its the bedrock of the faith cum political ideology.

Do you not read anything other than the MCB inspired taqiya?

Are you so indoctrinated that any bit of old bullshit, just as long as it's not nasty to those poor, put upon Muslims, is swallowed hook, line and sinker?

Here's one, go to any ME country and try telling them that Shariah is not Islam. Easier, try it in Manningham Lane in Bradford and see how long you'd last.

If in doubt do not spout the deception as gospel, that way lies the ridicule other readers are quite rightly posting.

Verity

What gullible, soft-headed and deeply ignorant Westerners, who persist in looking at Islam through the prism of their own civilisations, don't understand is, "religion of peace" refers to the peace that will descend when the whole world has been conquered for their Allah. In other words, when everyone stops defending their own religions and their own ways of life and knuckles under to their personal belief system, there will be peace.

That is why what we roughly describe as the West, is described by them as Dar al Harb - the House of War, which it will continue to be as long as we defend our societies against Islam. When we all sign up - or submit, because Islam is a religion of submission - to their diety, there will be peace and the whole world will be Dar es Salaam. Islam.

It's a fascist outfit, which is doubtless why Tony/Cherie Blair, Jack Straw and all the NuLabour crew find it so appealing.

Augustus

Disguised as religion, Islam has penetrated the democracies with the aim of replacing civility and liberty with the barbarism of theocracy and Sharia. In fact, Islam's multi-pronged attack aims to destroy all that liberty offers.

In deciding what constitutes a religion one should remember that to be a loyal and faithful Muslim a Muslim must adhere to, and perform many obligatory acts, as specified in the Koran and the Hadith/Sunna
during his entire life. But irrespective of what the term Islam may mean, the facts on the ground conclusively demonstrate Islam's
violent nature from its very inception. But no need to go back to the days of Mohammed and examine historical records. Just a few contemporary events make the point: The savage Shiite-Sunni bloodletting in Iraq; the barbarism of the resurgent Taliban in Afghanistan; the genocide in the Sudan Darfur region; the Somali killings; the Iranian mullahs murdering of their own people, and their support of mischief abroad; the cross border attacks by Lebanese
Hezbollah; the incessant terrorist attacks of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and the fatwahs
of the Palestinians against Israel.

The writing is on the wall. Islamic Sharia law is taking over many parts of Europe, and common law in Britain. Freedom is priceless. We in the West should accept no price for it.

Herbert Thornton

Verity - With one nit-picking exception, I agree with you entirely.

Just to nit-pick - the division is usually described not as one between dar al harb and dar es salaam but as one between dar al harb and dar al islam.

Dar es Salaam is a city in Tanzania. (I lived there for nearly 8 years).

Hysteria

Herbert - to de-pic your nit -
Dar es Salaam (Arabic: دار السلام‎ [translation: "house of Peace"] Dār as-Salām),

The root is actually the same - Verity is correct I think

Verity

Hysteria, thank you and welcome back! I wondered where you'd been. You must be back in Space City.

Herbert Thornton

Hysteria -

I do not dispute that the root is the same.

But I suggest that in English usage - and I think also in Kiswahili - "Dar es Salaam" refers to the city.

Verity

Herbert Thornton, with respect, no, in English we're not referring to the city you know so well but few in the Anglosphere have ever heard of. No offence.

Dar-es-Salaam, in Tanzania or Brunei means the same thing: the house of Islam. Pronunciations may differ. We cannot say spelling may differ because we are not au fait with their alphabet and will probably never bother to be so.

But Hysteria is correct, and not just because he judges in my favour.

You write, But I suggest that in English usage - and I think also in Kiswahili - "Dar es Salaam" refers to the city.” … and with respect, I suggest it does not, because there can be no comparison between the breadth and depth of the English language and the tribe to which you refer, except among people who know nothing of the Q’ran.

Please, no offence, Herbert Thornton, but what the hell relevance does Kiswahili have to people in the West? Who the hell in the wider universe cares about some crappy, unadvanced tribe’s definition of doggy poo?

Sorry to be so direct, because I respect you and your opinions. But this is just plain silly. Dar es Salaam means the land of islam. At least, it does in SE Asia. “Dar es”, barring local accents, “s’islam”. The house of Islam. Thus, the ruler of Brunei pronounces his country a slave of Islam while he goes to London in his private plane and stays at The Savoy.

And we are – and we wear the badge with pride – Dar al Harb. Yippppeeeeeeeeee! The inventors of the world they so slavishly buy in to. A legal code adopted on every continent. Trains and railway tracks. The internet. Phones. Planes. Microwaves. Washing machines. Vaccinations. Brain surgery. Trends, which they haven’t had in the desert for a thousand years, like pop groups and movie stars and TV programmes (when was the last time you enjoyed a TV comedy from Somalia?) … Refrigerators. Air conditioning. Cars …petroleum … Highways; Traffic lights … Air traffic control - Satellite TV - Jeans … Cute fashions …Reality TV - Concrete blocks. Space exploration.

None of this came out of the desert.

YA

Verity: enjoyed your cinological digression.

Herbert's citation might be related to the kind of Stockholm effect.

Everyone who visited Middle Eastern countries can recollect constant feeling of insecurity. In every hotel you always feel not only as host but also bit of a hostage. After leaving unharmed, you feel instinctive gratitude to these good people who had an opportunity to harm you but didn't.

This isn't paranoia. This is real psychological backround, a consequence of the millenia of Islamic teaching stating plain and simple that non-Muslims can't have human rights.

So the "Kiwahili" citation is probably the same type of "respectful" reflection.

Again, there are many reasons why Islam should be rejected "as is", moderate and unmoderate pieces alike. This is just another illustration.

Seacole

You are correct Verity - it came out of a love of trees and abundant nature.

Verity

Seacole – Don’t get your point.

Ya, what an interesting observation! I agree with you. I would absolve Jordan, though, from your judgement. I’ve always felt very easy and comfortable there and even considered moving to Aman at one point.

I’ve only ever been in airports in the Emirates - very modern, bustling but I did have the creepy feeling you describe and did have a sense that they had complete power and could do me harm if they wished. And a sense of relief when the plane took off. I’d never thought about it before, but your observation is absolutely correct.

Maryam Namazie

Several hundred people joined the successful rally organised by One Law for All on November 21, 2009 in London's Hyde Park that Peter Tatchell was highlighting. Acts of solidarity against Sharia and religious laws also took place in nearly 20 countries around the globe.

To hear coverage of the rally on BBC Radio 4's Sunday programme, click here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qnbd
(from 2400-3100 minutes).

A more detailed report on rally to follow shortly on www.onelawforall.org.uk.

Herbert Thornton

O.K., I accept the point that a great many English speakers have never heard of Dar es Salaam, so that they view the expression dar es salaam as synonymous with dar al islam.

However, just by way of taking a last kick at the topic, I invite anybody interested (if anybody is) to Google "Dar es Salaam" & see what it produces.

Herbert Thornton

YA,

I've been puzzling over your suggestion that my reference to Kiswahili was some sort of "respectful" reflection.

If you were hinting that I have some sort of bizarre impulse to coexist with Islam, perhaps it will help counter that notion if I say that my favorite painting is a reproduction (proudly displayed in our house) of Ilya Repin's famous painting, housed in the Hermitage, of the Zaporozhian Cossacks writing their reply to Sultan Mehmed IV of Turkey. You can see it here -
http://nol2ter.com/xe/files/attach/images/280/655/Repin_Cossacks.jpg

Verity

Anyone who is familiar with Herbert Thornton's postings would know he is not a candidate for Stockholm Syndrome re Islam.

It's an honest difference of opinion. We should write to Robert Spencer.