CoffeeHousers' Wall 30 November - 6 December

James Murphy

At the risk of sounding a discordant note so early in the week, may I ask what is the point of Rod Liddle? My question is not gratuitous but posed in order to raise a genuine concern regarding the direction of this much-loved magazine. Rod is undoubtedly a heterodox socialist - but he is still a socialist, that is, an adherent of a creed that abhors private enterprise and actively undermines the related role of family within society. Now, I can understand the presence of this undoubtedly affable man in the context of the New Statesman, or some other lefty rag - but the venerable, anti-big government Spectator? Surely it is not the latter's duty to provide a weekly soapbox for the softly-spoken but ultimately pernicious leftist views espoused by congenial but ultimately addle-pated socialists such as Rod? Let the other 95 per cent of the MSM do that! (Conversely I don't see the Guardian offering a weekly column to Mel' any time soon!) Indeed, as a subscriber to The Spectator, I specifically don't want to see 'all shades of opinion' in its pages, just as I don't wish to see all kinds of behaviour from my children in my sitting-room. On the contrary, my yearly subscription to this venerable old mag bespeaks a desire to see it constantly fight to define and articulate its own philosophy, to be on its mettle ready to defend itself when attacked - as libertarian conservative views incessantly are in this day and age - and to attack vigorously whenever it spots a weak point in its enemy's intellectual armour (after all, there are enough of them in Socialism's flashy Goering-esque intellectual uniformity). My ultimate concern is that Rod Liddle's presence represents the growth of a new kind of intellectual relativism that threatens to invade The Spectator's pages: a kind of wooly liberalism that in the guise of 'balance' actually timidly recoils from the duty of committing itself to a properly analysed and articulate philosophy. No doubt this is due to a perceived market need to appeal to a younger readership, and perhaps to pander to some putative notion of 'tolerance' in today's increasingly insipid intellectual spectrum. This is surely a great shame. I suppose, deep down, my fear is that Rod's arrival signals the potentially fatal dilution of the Spectator's original, clear-cut intellectual identity. Indeed, like Alice's Cheshire Cat, the latter seems to me to be rather tragically beginning to disappear, to be replaced by ... well, what? The Spectator is (or used to be) a lone voice preaching the virtues of intellectual, moral and aesthetic self-reliance in a wilderness of Socialistic group-think. What's happened to change that? Indeed, the need to speak up for the old virtues is perhaps greater now than at any time in our recent post-modern history. So, what then, when all is said and done, does The Spectator stand for at this crucial moment in the post-socialist, post sub-prime, post-christian, post-nihilist, post-everything chaos? A new declaration of intellectual independence with a bill of rights written in detail by the Editor and publisher would be in order, I feel.

Publius

"The Spectator is (or used to be) a lone voice preaching the virtues of intellectual, moral and aesthetic self-reliance in a wilderness of Socialistic group-think. What's happened to change that?"

-- Welcome to the New Spectator!

At least Mr Liddle doesn't suck at the politically correct tit like some of the others. If you want to attack bland PC lefty Hothouse groupthink, then there are other far worthier targets at the Speccie.

Ken

I've never watched Britain's Got Talent but not even I can be immune to 'that clip' when Susan Boyle first hits UK tv screens. Having sampled the tracks on her new album -record breaking album I should say - I am mightily impressed not only by Susan's voice, but by the skills of her producers,engineers and image consultants. The standard 'Cry Me a River' is lovely - and sounds like Barbara Streisand. The whole album is beautifully crafted for the time of year and the intended audience - mums and grans. I wish Susan well. She has a lovely voice - and as Dame Shirley sings - she's 'bought a ticket of a lifetime' I really hope you enjoy the journey.

But hold on.. somethings not right. This is too close to Danny Kaye's story of the ugly duckling becoming a swan. Now forgive me if I'm cynical but I don't believe this fantasy line being fed to us by Cowell and Associates.

The fiction is this.... not too attractive woman of a certain age wanders in off the streets like a vagrant - spouts a load of garbled 'I could've been a contender' gubbins causing laughter and sniggering all over the place - and then she opens her mouth and sings likea pretty good impression of an angel. Panel are stunned! Audience are gob-smacked! TV watchers sit open-mouthed etc! Really? I mean REALLY??

Are they saying that Susan Boyle did not attend regional heats and win through to the tv finals? That this 'wonder' slipped through the radar of every employee of Britain's Got Talent? That Cowell had NO IDEA what was happening and was ignorant of the messianic revelation that was about to happen? Amanda Holden's just an 'actress' paid to act - so she 'acted' surprised and full of emotion.

Now Susan has a good voice and I really do wish her well - but I can't lose this sneaky feeling that the programme could be re-named Britain's Been Conned.

In the nicest possible way of course. The way we pretend to small children that there is a Santa Claus. The way the Treasury did not tell us about those loans.

Are we all children after all - or do they all just think we are.

Nicholas

Just when there are not enough sick bags to cope with the almost everyday attention-seeking disorder announcements of New Labour's personality cult leader along comes one worthy of projectile vomiting.

In Tim Dowling's (Guardianista, RT, Leftist) spoof of Christmas scheduling (page 14) one Gordon Brown is set to make a guest appearance in the Eastenders Old Vic to warn us of the dangers of swine 'flu. Yes, you read that correctly, the ghastly Leftist propaganda sheet Radio Times even has a picture.

It seems their eagle-eyes commissars don't spot everything though. Beneath the image of the haggard grey Brown standing alone amidst the seedy Victorian decor of the soap set is a screen strip in red with the slogan "Catch It, Bin It, Kill It. Merry Christmas".

Quite.

Tim Hedges

Liddle's nothing - they used to have the appalling Sion Simon. Actually, as recently with a couple of pieces on quangos / waste / useless Govt. jobs, I think he is converting, pupating into a right winger before our eyes. We should be grateful.

Michael Booth

No more minarets in Switzerland then...already the outraged are outraging. Sometimes democracy hurts, don't it?

daniel maris

Talking of minarets, I was surprised to see the BBC allow comments on that.

But then when I went into the comments I didn't find one strongly in support of the decision.

Can we really believe that reflects UK opinion?

wrinkled weasel

Michael Booth, Democracy? They don't like it up 'em.

The liberal elite are already in full swing whining about Minarets. CH is one of the few last places on earth where local voices are heard, so you can see why the EU don't like it.

Apparently they are saying it's against human rights. No it is not, it is against illegitimate aspirations for cultural hegemony, and a very one-sided take on what buildings you can erect in places of architectural and geographical importance.

Try getting a replica of St Paul's put up in Tehran and see how far you get.

Stuart Seacole-tastic

Was just renewing my subscription to the BBC radio From Our Own Correspondent podcast a moment ago - I know, I know, I'm just a glutton for punishment I guess... Anyway, I noticed that in the enticing little "other subscribers also subscribed to" box that of the top 4 positions, the Guardian daily and Guardian Weekly occupied two of them. A pretty clear snap-shot of the societal cohort that our licence-fee funded, and supposedly national broadcaster appeals to. FOOC me. And you all.

Also, noticed a bit of trad leftie-bashing being directed towards "affable" Rod Liddle. Never met him, but I do have my doubts that he's been called affable too many times. Sure he's been called a few other things though. Thing is, he may have a bit of softy liberal in him, but it's not all that much, and he's funny! Personally, I can't undersatnd for the life of me why they've got Massie on the pay roll.

Wily Trout

Fraser Nelson apologise? Neather!

Nicholas

Dr Katherine Rake's Anti-Family Rant - some soundbites:-

"Dr Rake predicts that as mothers play less of a role in their children's lives due to work pressures, 'communal parenting' will become commonplace in many families with siblings, grandparents, aunts and uncles stepping in."

Check. "Communal" = Communist. Also social services, neighbourhood spies and the Stasi no doubt stepping in too.

"Dr Rake took over the organisation, which speaks on the behalf of parents and children and was set up in 1999 by Jack Straw when he was Home Secretary, earlier this year."

Check. Another "creation" of Jack Straw, that subversive student communist. Another "organisation" that speaks for parents and children. How many others? With all these thinly-disguised communist inspired quangos, agencies and "charities" speaking for parents and children there is no need for real parents and children to stand up and speak and no place for a democratic, un-vested majority.

"She said there would be no such thing as a 'typical family' in the next 10 to 20 years."

Check. Re-define the aberration as the norm. Make the norm the aberration.

"People are constantly redefining what it means to be a family,' she told the Daily Telegraph."

Check. Imply New Labour's re-defining of the family is being championed by ordinary people. Use the terms "the public" and "the people" to imply a majority mandate as though New Labour have a special symbiosis with everyone.

"What we are seeing is that family shape is changing all the time, the notion of a traditional nuclear family... certainly isn’t the norm now."

Check. Repeat the lie. Make people believe traditional families are not normal.

EC

Mark Steyn is on top form again at the JWR:

The Global Warm Mongers, Ecopalypse Now and "How To Forge A Consensus" - Chicago style ...

http://jewishworldreview.com/1109/steyn.php3

All this and Herman Van Rumpoy's "global governance."

Not to be missed!

David Ossitt

James Murphy

“At the risk of sounding a discordant note so early in the week, may I ask what is the point of Rod Liddle? Rod is undoubtedly a heterodox socialist”

You ask; what is the point of Rod Liddle?

I suspect that he has many good points that qualify him to write for this paper; among these are his total lack of political correctness, his ribald humour, his vulgarity, his oft unusual slant on current events but in the main I am of the opinion that it is his natural honesty that tops the list.

Heterodox socialist, surely not, he is more than likely, a dissident conservative.

Cuffleyburgers

Rod Liddle calls himself a socialist, but in fact in general he hides it pretty well.
I read most of his columns in the times, and here on the speccie, and more often than not I agree with him (although I do occasionally totally absolutely disagree)

Besides, he is often funny, is anti-pomposity, anti-hypocrisy, generally pro-libertarian...

He is also intelligent and says some thought provoking things.

Alex Massie - I think I'd enjoy an evening in his company a bit less than Liddle, he follows very much an Economist sort of line so a bit po-faced and earnest.

I do wonder about Martin Bright. I don't think I've read anything intelligent or amusing in his blogs, is an unrepentent socialist, thinks the only thing wrong with Brown is that he will lose the next election - I hope he is not being paid for the tosh he produces...

Keith D

How very dare they? What is the world coming to at all? The EU must be in a state of MC inspired shock at the audacity of the Swiss populace,s refusal to bow further to the yoke of Islamism. Cue veiled threats, muslim outrage, boycott calls and banner wielding hordes. Wonder what a referendum here would have indicated? Mr Brown,CDM. Ever heard that word? Referendum?

egh

Yes, Patricia Shaw!! Alive and well indeed.

They haven't deemed the Swiss situation worthy of comment yet, either. I keep expecting 'Swiss' to turn into a verboten keyword!

It's all quite Spec-ulation inciting....

Verity

Yes, egh, and if only the banning of any more hideous minarets had taken place in Holland rather than Switzerland, we could have referred to the Neather-lands.

I think we should start a little list of important political developments that don't get a mention on the Speccie.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Daniel Maris: The BBC lives in its own little world, especially conerning minarets. Regarding the BBC's "Have Your Say" and other blogs, what can one say? Far better to read "BBC Cias" - much more honest and impartial.

Anne Wotana Kaye

I meant "BBC Bias". Typing growing worse with impatience at the news. Sorry.

pete-s

Found an interesting story on Biased BBC about an interview on radio 4 this morning. Follow the story it leads to a £7M ed balls financed charity headed by Ali Campbells o/h Fiona Millar, plus an extension to conservativehome exposing these left wing organisations.

egh

And those with the power to make things appear ... can make them disappear as well!!

Now there's 'humanitas' for you!!

daniel maris

Stories that don't get a look in...there's a good theme.

Well nothing about the dangerous dogs issue so far I think.

This will smoke out the BNPers here as well since they all love their staffies and pit bulls which help them look hard.

I think it's an important issue, one that mainstream parties fail to address properly because they are cowardly. It is clear that millions of people across the country, especially those living on council estates are being subjected to outrageous intimidation by drug dealing, dog breeding anti-social types who need to be taught a lesson.

The answer is bleedin' obvious - a licensing system plus proper policing. The police needed to be hauled over the coals for their disgraceful inaction in our main cities.

All dogs should be licensed (as before in our history and as in many societies).

Only people aged over 18 should be allowed to be a licence holder.

All dogs should be collared and chipped and police should have an absolute right to check on dogs. There should be a two tier system. Based on dog DNA. Obviously a range of breeds such as pit bull would be banned outright.

But then we should have a division into smaller dogs considered essentially harmless and larger dogs considered potentially harmful. There should be a compulsory one year check to check on size (with the licence lapsing if it is not undertaken).

With the larger dogs there should be an owner's test before licence issue.

All owners would agree to abide by a code as part of their licence and failure to meet the code would be grounds for removal of the licence and removal of the dog from their care.

There should be a licence inspectorate which would check on dogs being walked and police forces that failed to deliver say 99.9% compliance would be subject to sanctions. Vets and dog breeders would have legal duties placed on them to support the scheme.

All a bit bureaucratic I know but the licence fee will pay for it all and you have a choice: millions intimidated and dead children or happy dogs and children kept alive and unmaimed. There's no middle way on this.

Frank P

EU Directive No. 456179

In order to meet the conditions for joining the Single European Market,
all citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
must be made aware that the phrase 'Spending a Penny' is not to be used
after 31st December 2009.

Thereafter, the correct terminology will be: 'Euronating'.

h/t Janet Owner

Naomi Muse

Frank P - a good one. Especially as euros is the Greek for urine anyway and so when people mistakenly use a plural for the euro, they are calling it pee...

The real plural of Euro is Euro, and so the pedants amongst us shall have their honour satisfied.

What a way to start a really frosty day!

Nicholas

daniel maris.

Codswallop. Will this hysterical and bureaucratic nonsense ensure no child is ever attacked and maimed?

No. Just as the 1997 Firearms Legislation has not prevented the misuse of handguns.

You're not a New Labour policy advisor are you?

EC

Frank P,

Europeen Pres, Herman Van Rompuy, will be insisting on everyone going sitting down next!

Anne Wotana Kaye

Daniel M: Hi. All good suggestions, I agree with them all. BUT, will anybody, police, social workers, etc. follow them up? Of course not. Now this dictatorship is offering people £500 to report on illegal council tenants. Instead of having people to spy on others, it would be better if systems were in place where authorities carried out their responsibilities in an honest way. Ed Balls, is yapping about the poor social workers being overburdened. This is the only so-called developed country which doesn't have a university degree for its social workers. Instead, they pick up where they can many half-educated well meaning workers (often foreign). Dogs, they can't register them, they can't even keep proper school registers.

Maximilian

daniel maris, not exactly a dog lover, are you? Who will decide which are the lesser breeds to be exterminated? Sounds like a job for the BNP.

A friend who lives in Brazil told me this story the other day. Her neighbours kept a rottweiler as a guard dog and they also had a poodle, which lived indoors with the family. One night they had a burglary. The rottweiler, evidently a heavy sleeper, never moved a muscle. The poodle started barking, the family woke up, and when they switched the lights on, the burglar ran away. The poodle chased him all the way to his house and stood there barking at his front door until the police came and took him away.

Anne Wotana Kaye

On BBC 4 there is a discussion on local councils saving money. Well, I happen to know of a very wealthy London borough which states it cannot afford Meals on Wheels for its elderly citizens. They are instead providing (at quite high cost) frozen meals of an inferior quality which these really aged people have to heat up as best they may. Some of these people, living in this 'caring' society only ever saw a living soul when the friendly Meals on Wheels provider arrived. However, this same Lib Dem local authority has the funds to produce leaflets giving information on services and how to obtain benefits etc. This literature is translated into many languages, at great expense. First, I should like to state I believe that anybody who chooses to live here should learn the language. Secondly, I don't think many of those who avail themselves of these foreign-language leaflets really need them. They seem, in general, far more adapt than the native UK population at obtaining every benefit and freebie on offer.

Wilhelm

The Spectator has a little clock counter telling us how much the national debt is going up by.

So shouldnt they also have a clock counter reeling off the days that Fraser Nelson hasnt posted a comment on Neathergate, the biggest scandal of the century, which he promised he would ?

Or is he too busy dressing up in a penguin suit going to society dinners, sucking up to the establishment ? I think Im entitled to an answer to that question .

Angela

The dangerous dogs issue is uniquely British in its scale and prevalence because of the British people’s unique capacity to act like lemmings.

These dogs fight. It’s in their DNA. Their owners train them to fight by getting them to bite tree branches. Then they say: ‘ee only attacks if ‘ees provoked’. The death of that four-year-old is just the tip of the iceberg.

With typical British sanctimony, if you defend these ghastly dogs, you’re a dog lover. And the kids being mauled or killed? Collateral damage. Just part of Britain’s Baby P syndrome.

These dogs are animals and should be treated as such.

They do not need chipping and licensing because that won’t stop anything.

They need putting down: Rottweillers, Dobermans, Pitbulls, American Pitbulls, Mastiffs – all fighting dogs.

The lot.

With a gun.

Yesterday.

Verity

Maximilian - And that this incident was recounted by a friend living in Brazil is relevant how?

Maximilian

Good news in the Grauniad on the outlook for the Copenhagen summit. Any harm a “climate change treaty” is capable of inflicting may not be so very severe, after all:

Canada was meant to have cut emissions by 6% between 1990 and 2012. Instead they have already risen by 26%. It is now clear that Canada will refuse to be sanctioned for abandoning its legal obligations. The Kyoto protocol can be enforced only through goodwill: countries must agree to accept punitive future obligations if they miss their current targets. [. . .]

The Canadian government is testing the international process to destruction and finding that it breaks all too easily. By demonstrating that climate sanctions aren't worth the paper they're written on, it threatens to render any treaty struck at Copenhagen void.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2009/nov/30/canada-tar-sands-copenhagen-climate-deal

Anne Wotana Kaye

Angela: Wrong! The dogs have been trained and bred by Man. Put down the wretched depraved two-legged curs who brought them to this state. Should help global warming to rid ourselves of such degenerates.

Wilhelm

Heard Nick Clegg, leader of the liberals ( which is about as irrelevant as candyfloss ) on the Simon Mayo show this afternoon. Someone phoned up and asked him about immigration and like a pavlovs dog he dribbled '' immigration is a good thing, it benefits the country, the NHS and the nation would collapse without immigrants.''

HUH ? Well thanks Nick for having soo much faith in the English people, you know the folks who went out and built the British Empire, thanks a bunch.

If I had a pound for everytime I heard this tedious mantra , I could pay off the national; debt in a week, nah, make that 3 days.

Verity

Angela - I just can't take anyone who refers to children as "kids" (unless they're a genuine American) seriously. There is something of the uppity poseur in the usage.

Wilhelm

James Murphy 12.12pm

Are you posting a novel, son ?

Frank P

What happened to my post about Dr Tim Ball?

Beer Moth

Angela.

How about my whippet?

Can he stay?

On his couch?

Next to the radiator?

egh

AWK: yes. I never met a poor sad dog who didn't have a really vile inhuman attached - the cause of the dysfunction.

Come to think of it: the same goes for my horse and cat friends.

But then again. We're all supposed to be euros (thanks for the tip! Luv it!) today. --- So I expect our traditional love of animals will have to change, along with innocence until proved guilty and Trial by Jury.

Gosh - where are all the bells and whistles? The fireworks and flagwavings and seelybrashuns? Our self-appointed masters couldn't, could they, imagine that such things would 'incite' unrest: or even 'hatred' of the euSSR? That British Bulldog...

[P.S: the only time my brilliant Corgi-Chow ever growled at anyone was when they seemed to threaten me. I was more amazed than they were!].

Frank P

At a time when there is outcry about States-side about UEA & Climategate and the blogs are buzzing with new detail over there, there is still a virtual hiatus UK side and apart from our Melanie, who is relentless, this magazine seems to have lost interest.

I recommend the following for those who are keen to learn more:

http://www.floppingaces.net/2009/11/28/the-conspiracy-of-the-centuries-reader-post/

http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/driveby/bad_astronomy_gets_worse.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydo2Mwnwpac&feature=player_embedded

There are five sections to the latter link; please sit through them all – riveting stuff!

You’ll need a large cup of coffee and a little patience, but well worth the time spent. Dr Tim Ball is featured - a climatologist of some 30 years standing - brilliant guy. What a story he has to tell.

I started this journey commencing from Gerard Vanderleun’s American Digest link:

http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/driveby/bad_astronomy_gets_worse.php

It was a journey well worth taking and one which all those CH-ers who have been following the Long March for as long as the blogosphere has been going - or like myself, for well over half a century through other media, it makes a great deal of sense.

The NWO is also implicated, not to mention the ubiquitous Soros.

It is important to stir as much shit up as possible leading up to Copenhagen. Get cracking folks. Each of the above links provides a large ladle for stirring.

I was hoping that Melanie would pick it up, analyse it and synthesise it but she is snowed under at present. I fear she is the only one capable of doing an executive report on all the strands involved; but in the meantime it's worth wading through yourselves.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Angela, I don't know you and I am sure you are a good person. I don't want to start a war on this forum, too much conflict in the real world. But how can you say, "These dogs are animals and should be treated as such." Are animals to be shot, ill treated just because they are animals? Whether you believe in G-d or are a nonbeliever, surely you must respect life amd know all living creatures feel pain and have feelings.
Most animals only attack for food or from fear. Is it the fault of certain dogs that they have been exploited, inbred, trained to attack? Because of the few must all be put down? Far better, the people who abused them should be taken away and shot, although shooting is perhaps to kind for them. Those who have reared and trained dogs for the so-called sport of dog fighting, should be placed in an arena and left to the mercy of the very dogs they trained. It is a cruel irony that two of the children who were killed by these dogs came from families who bred and trained them.

oldtimer

@Frank P
"What happened to my post about Dr Tim Ball?"

I tried to post a link to an interview with Dr Ball the other day, but it never appeared. Could it be he is on a banned list? Anyway the interview can be found on YouTube; try a search on Climategate and Dr Tim Ball.

Another blogger worth a read is William M Briggs, a very readable statistician, who does a good demolition job on CRUdgate.

Re the Swiss minarets vote, there is an interesting comment on it over at UK Polling Report. There Anthony Wells points out that the actual YES vote in favour of the ban was 57.5%. Yet in a poll taken about two weeks before, the split was Yes 37% and No 53%. This is a staggering swing in opinion.

No was the preferred option for the Swiss establishment and media. So it seems that the Swiss voters may not have been willing to declare what they really thought to the opinion pollsters.

I suspect it is this sort of outcome that discourages UK and EU politicians from risking referenda - the issue is out of their hands.

Wilhelm

Old Timer

'' Frank P, What happened to my post about Dr Tim Ball.''

Ive posted on numerous occasions about immigration, multiculturism and Enoch Powell, every comment a masterpiece, that aint boasting, thats me being truthful. Did they get published ? did they hell. Some people might think there is a conspiracy against free speech on the Spectator.

daniel maris

Hmmm...much as I thought...

Actually I am very much a dog lover. Don't forget many more dogs (and cats) than people are savaged or killed by these dogs every year.

I think dogs are a lovely feature of our society and a wonderful surviving link to our primitive past. I had a dog as a child, and though I am not that keen to own one now, I am very supportive of responsible owners having them.

Dog licensing will work if the will to make it work is there.

There is no need to slaughter any dogs. Once the licensing system is in place the dogs will simply not be bred.

Nicholas

So Angela, when Britain is wall to wall mumsnet and all the children are safe, everything that can be banned is banned, and there is nothing scary to threaten poor icky-wicky woo what will you do?

Hopefully jump a rocket ship to Mars.

egh

Wilhelm @6.27 p.m: very likely. I say make the most of what we yet may say ... before the euSSR kicks in at full power and turns us off for being subversive, unacceptable, disrespectful, inciteful, hate-filled, conspiracy-nut-racist, xenofob, coffin-dodging, conservative, little brits who can't take direction.

It'll be time we learnt some manners, don't you know.

Anne Wotana Kaye

egh: Hello, I have a feeling that you are an animal lover too. Regarding the fact that we are all supposed to be Euros now (ugh!) no way will I eat a poor old horse. On the positive side, I seem to find the French actually love their dogs and Paris is full of them, trotting along on leads (the dogs) and admitted to cafes where they partake of little snacks. I haven't found the awful restrictions on keeping pets in rental dwellings that exist here in the UK, and apart from that vile habit of eating poor old Neddy and pulling the legs off frogs, the average dog and cat seems content in France.

EC

Wilhelm: "Some people might think there is a conspiracy against free speech on the Spectator."

The Spectatavoid works in mysterious ways! eg. Patricia Shaw keeps appearing and then disappearing. To be fair, Wilhelm, you seem to get comments through on a regular basis.

Whatever happened to George Laird?

I sent in a couple of photos today. A splash of much needed colour, my own copyright, nothing too self-aggrandising in autumnal butterflies and summer rambles one would have thought. Whatever happened to them?

Whatever happened to Jeremy and his graphics?

George, we need another campaign!

EC

Angela,

Dog are dogs. Dogs aren't the problem. Some dog owners are!

Anne Wotana Kaye

EC

The Spectatavoid works in mysterious ways! eg. Patricia Shaw keeps appearing and then disappearing.

Since I mentioned that the photo of Baroness Ashton was really SHE the lady has vanished!

Maximilian

@ Verity at 2.24 pm

Is it legal to keep a rottweiler as a guard dog on your premises in Britain? I don't know, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I thought it was worth pointing out that this happened in a country where the dog owners were on the right side of the law.

daniel maris

Angela -

I told you my post would expose the BNPers. They can just about hide their views when it comes to non-indigenous folk but not when it comes to their dogs.

I have listened on TV to some of the most sickening rubbish I have ever heard from the relatives of the poor child John Paul, all of them trying to wheedle out of responsibility for having lethal animals in close proximity to tiny children.

These people aren't fit to look after children. Full stop. Take away their dogs and take away their benefit tickets. Let the law intimidate them in the way they are pleased to intimidate ordinary law-abiding citizens.

Verity

Maximilian - I don't know. Probably not, because a guard dog may be smarter and make better judgements, than what are comically known as "the police".

EC

Beer Moth: "How about my whippet? Can he stay? On his couch? Next to the radiator"

I had imagined this animal to be a gentle northern soul in a flat cap sitting on the couch, replete after a F&C supper - out of newspaper, enjoying a postprandial Woodbine whilst scanning the sports pages of a tabloid.

But now Maris piper informs us that, as a dog lover, you are likely to a vicious BNP thug who has trained this animal to attack immigrants.

To settle this matter, do you have a photo of you and your pet that you could post up on the wall?

Nicholas

Still posting codswallop daniel maris. "Smoking out the BNP'" with your hysterical dog-licencing rant? What a vile imperative and a nasty presumption. "Dare to disagree with me, the great daniel maris and you must therefore be a member of the BNP!" Tosh!

You belong in the same camp of idiots that screams "Racist" every time someone expresses concern about mass immigration. And it says much more about you and your very narrowly formed mindset than those who dare to disagree with you.

For the record I have a collie cross, rescued, and I am not, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be, a member or supporter of the BNP. For a start they are socialists, who I detest.

Horrible little man. Horrible little posts.

daniel maris

There is no contradiction between being an animal lover and being in favour of dog licensing. Britain had dog licensing for a long time - most of the 20th century I think - and no one accused us of not loving animals then.

Dog licensing will protect animals. It will stop dogs being reared for cruel dog fighting (which also involves cruel and unnatural training practices). It will stop smaller dogs and cats being literally ripped to shreds by out of control dogs.

And of course it will protect little children from the menace of these violent dogs.

The idea that there are "no bad dogs", only bad owners is a sentimental thought but irrelevant. Yes, of course, pit bull terriers are not moral creatures and thus cannot be "good" or "bad" in that sense. But they have been bred to lock on to other animals and not let go and to keep biting and clenching their jaws. They have been bred for incredible endurance. They are potentially lethal animals that should never be left in close proximity to little children - and even adults should be very wary of them.

Beer Moth

EC

I can't quite make this marisian link between ownership of fighting breeds, and the propensity toward xenophobia, can you? I suspect it is given with tongue firmly in cheek.

Fraid I can't supply photo's of myself or Clifford as we are both - how to put it - 'of interest to the authorities'. Me for non-payment of child maintenance and habitual sheep fondling...hic; he for the wanton and public murder of squirrels adjacent to our local play area (not the reds, they're ours)

Nicholas

"And of course it will protect little children from the menace of these violent dogs."

How will licencing do that then? How will a bit of paper protect a child. Better to hold the owner responsible and to invoke a charge of involuntary wounding or manslaughter against them in the event of an attack.

Nicholas

The BBC are reporting the Home Office cuts to policing this morning, but not as cuts rather as "instructions to make savings". Uniforms and vehicles were cunningly mentioned. No cuts to frontline public services then, eh Brown? If the Tories had proposed this the media would be all over it and the socialists screaming fit to bust. Just what is wrong with our politics that the playing field is so skewed, that the Tories get lambasted whatever they do and the national socialists are given such a free ride?

Listening to the news piece it could have been drafted by a Brown propagandist. Probably was.

Beer Moth

Let Police dog-handlers have Pitbulls instead of those puffy GSDs.

That'd flush out the high streets at closing time.

I'm wasted here, me.

Frank P

Back to ClimateGate: Gerard Vanderleun encapsulates the essence this morning in a neat and pungent essay, it's worth reproducing it all:

http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/enemies_foreign_domestic/climategate_first_lie_is.php

>Tell me lies,
Tell me sweet little lies.
-- Fleetwood Mac

As we all learn whenever we feel the teeth of truth's bear trap snapping closed the first lie told to escape the trap is, in retrospect, the most illuminating. This "primal" lie is the one told in haste and either repented or embroidered later as the truth begins to inexorably emerge. That is why to connoisseurs of lies the first and freshest lies are always the most delicious when it comes time to fry them up.

So it is with the first and most primal lie of ClimateGate; "the emails don't amount to much at all." This was the first lie to come out of the mouths of the Alarmists and their supporters and it was yummy. This lie was, indeed, the main "Talking Point" (i.e. Group Lie) for a number of days until a deeper examination of the emails themselves and the read-me files and the comments in the programs gave their first lie and indeed their whole enterprise the lie.

Looking back it is easy to see that the emails, far from being just trivial statements exchanged between pals, partners in deceit, and collegial others, were indeed the window into the entire mind-set that drove and sustained what is looking to be the largest and most far-reaching hoax in the history of science; a hoax perpetuated across decades by dozens if not hundreds of "scientists" for the sake of "saving the planet" and money, and fame, and status, and power. Indeed, this hoax makes Bernard Madoff look like a street-corner three-card-monte hustler. Looking through the window provided by the emails you can discern, with no effort of imagination whatsoever, the much greater real-world environment in which the hoax was born, grew, took on a life of its own, and was fed and sustained until it swept the whole world into its maw.

Think about your own collection of emails written to friends, associates, and colleagues over the years. They form, taken en masse, footnotes and journal entries that document your life. Email does not exist in a vacuum. It replicates in outline the conversations, phone calls, meetings, work sessions, bull sessions, conventions, and all the other multifoliate actions that define your days. So it is with the HadlyCRU emails.

You don't need to read the thousands of messages. Just read around in them and you'll get the picture soon enough.

What comes to life in these bits of electronic notes swapped hither and yon is the picture of a culture in which corruption was so deeply embedded that the fudging of data, the suppression of dissenting views, and the preening over the control of the future of economic and social life on earth was the common stuff of the days and nights. The emails show us a small, elite, unelected and self-selected group that was putting one over on the world and prospering because of it.

What laughs these folks must have had. What rollicking asides, nods, nudges and winks must have passed between them after a couple of pints down at the pub. You can feel the pats thumping on the back, hear the "atta-boys" being muttered, appreciate the chortles as yet more grant money showed up and a whole new spiffy building was erected in which their whole shameful scam could unfold unperturbed.

And when somebody, some hero somewhere - inside the organization or out - finally blew the whistle on the party what was the first thing the HardlyCRU crew did?

It trotted out the first knee-jerk lie, the most amusing one in retrospect, that the emails were just "ordinary communication," a bit of fooling around; that the emails (the most immediately accessible part of the hack package) were really no big deal and that there really was nothing to see here... so let's just move on. Please?

That was the primal lie. Because the emails were, alas, true. They were the door that anyone could read and walk through into the entire sordid landscape of lie. Most people will not understand the arcance code of software programs. Most people will not understand the now bogosified "science" of "climatology." Most people will, as the fraudsters of HadlyCRU knew and depended upon, allow themselves to be "blinded by science." And for decades they were.

But anyone can read the emails and sense, from everyone's deep experience with their own emails, that there was - despite the protests - something very, very wrong going on. Anyone reading the emails catches the tone if not the substance and knows that there's more than mischief afoot and that something in the mindset behind the emails is perverting science.

For a few days the HadlyCRU Alarmists and their fellow travelers could toss out their first and most primal lie, but it was too late. For if you read the emails you could not be blinded by science any longer - unless it was in your personal interest to feign blindness.

Once that happened it became easy to spot the liars at HadlyCRU and among other Alarmist supporters. It was simplicity itself. Anyone who told you that "the emails were a non-event" was part and party to the hoax and the lie. There was no longer any reason to believe any of them. You might not know enough about science, but you knew a lot about email and how it indicated what the real world environment of the writers of that email was like. If you were an honest person, you had to believe, finally, your own lying eyes.<

Posted by Vanderleun at December 2, 2009 7:58 AM

Footnote: Melanie has taken a lot of stick for her resolve and constant contributions over this issue. That events have vindicated her in spades must give her strength to carry on.

Verity

Daniel Maris - I wonder why you are posting on a political blog when your grasp of politics appears to be so fragile.

"smoking out the BNP".

Like all political parties and political people, the BNP actively and energetically seeks publicity. Nick Griffen did not go on national TV programme Question Time under cover. When he is interviewed, he doesn't say his name is John Doakes and votes Tory. They don't have to be "smoked out". They are in our faces.

I think you've smoked yourself out as an idiot.

Like Nicholas, I would not vote for the BNP because the hard left - or Communism/Marxism/Gramsciism/Trotism, if you prefer - is a threat to civilisation. I would like to see the hard left - adopting protective colouration in instances such as the ambulatory emetic Tony Blair - smoked out and destroyed.

Verity

Well, I see, according to The Mail, the Italians are in train to have a referendum on the building of minarets. Yippee!

The downside is, all the muslim immigrants in Switzerland and Italy will come to Britain as "asylum seekers" deprived of their human right to build dominating islamic towers in civilised countries.

oldtimer

For followers of Climategate:
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/Monckton-Caught%20Green-Handed%20Climategate%20Scandal.pdf

It seems that the main stream media were given the link to the CRU e-mails about four weeks ago - and ignored it, including the BBC. It only came out via the internet and the blogging community.

Beer Moth

Verity

I would guess that the movers and sheikers over in Switzerland were working on the idea that if they erected huge penis-like structures all over the place, this would add weight to their efforts to intimidate the kuffir.

Or would that be just pathetic phallusey

Verity

Wow! Climategate and Minaretgate! Certainly takes the heat off Fraser and Neathergate does it not?

PayDirt

Robert Peston in his BBC blog is giving the potential bonus numbers at RBS as:

"Last year Royal Bank paid £900m of bonuses in its investment bank. So right now it expects to pay up to £1.5bn in bonuses to its investment bankers.

Including bonuses it would want to pay to retail bankers and to employees in the rest of the group, it would intend to pay £2bn in bonuses for its performance in 2008."

How crap is that? Bonuses for loss-makers. And the RBS management apparently threatening to resign if they don't get their own way. We are at the mercy of high finance, as the arguement goes that we can't do without them. How about calling their bluff and "letting them go"?

James Murphy

Wilhelm asks James Murphy 12.12pm - Are you posting a novel, son ? - Mea culpa! Post was a bit of a long'un, but then why use one word when ten will do? Plus, it was written late at night when I am prone to pomposity. Thought main thrust of post valid though, to wit, the bizarre charity of offering a home to Leftist opinion when The Spectator was originally set up to promulgate the opposite. But enough, I stand corrected!

Rhoda Klapp

James, please understand that Rod is a notional treasure. Yes, I meant that spellign.

daniel maris

Verity -

I think you know what I was getting at. There are a number of people who comment on Spectator blogs who are obviously BNPers but either hide the fact or try and present themselves as floating voters who are considering voting for the BNP.

The Spectator is an intelligent journal read by intelligent people. Very few Spectator reader could be under the innocent misapprehension that the BNP is a democratic party rather than one controlled by a cabal of totalitarian Nazis.

Patricia Shaw

Daniel - The Spectator once had a reputation for inciteful and informed thinking.

But that was then.

Now its a magnet for bigots, racists and aggressive minorities, attracted by the many like minded sensationists who write its blogs.

Sorry if the truth hurts.

Wilhelm

I just loove the way the Facist left spew out the word ' waycism ' as a threat at every turn, morning , noon and night to shut up and close down the debate. Its very tedious.

The word ' waycism ' is so devalued because of this it is now worthless and meaningless.

Nicholas

And now Patricia Shaw wades in with a sweeping generalisation for which she is not sorry at all. It is that "sorry" which is another one of those socialist code words contrived to add legitimacy and conviction to a comment astounding in its own bigotry. And just who are these "aggressive minorities"?

"Sorry", Patricia, but "socialism" and "truth" are mutually exclusive. Socialism is all about lies and all about stripping political opponents of a fair hearing. If a socialist disagrees with something, the first thing he - or she - will do is to demonise it. And socialism must be one of the most aggressive political ideologies the world has ever seen, whether articulated in communist or nationalist forms. "Sorry", Patricia Shaw, but your post demonstrates all that quite admirably. If you are so disgusted by the degenerate rabble attracted here then why do you hang around sniping? Or is it that the experience reassures your smug superiority, confirms your prejudices, re-affirms your preconceptions and elevates the perceived self-worth of your morality? All of which are perfectly natural responses - for a socialist bien-pensant.

EC

Paticia Shaw: "The Spectator once had a reputation for inciteful and informed thinking."

If nothing else, your comments are always inciting!

Frank P

Nicholas

I was hoping that you weren't going to take Patricia's bait, but as, when you did, you swallowed the dead little grub, the hook, the line, the sinker, the rod and fisher-woman whole, then spat her arse and the rest of the crap out with a flourish, as you swam on regardless - bravissimo! That'll l'arn 'er!

Wilhelm

Daniel Maris barks

'' All BNPers love their dogs, this will smoke them out.''

Quote of the century

Vulture

For those who haven't yet seen it, and to mix the Rodders and Minarets debate - Rod had written an excellent piece on Islam & Europe & the BBC in this week's Speccie. Except for one major factual error: he has the Dutch voting for Pim Fortujn two years after he was murdered. If you are going to pontificate it helps to get your basic and easily checked facts right. That apart, its a good polemic and shows why Rod the Lid, despite his manifest faults and Socialist eccentricity is, on balance, an asset.

Verity

Daniel Marris - are you Patricia Shaw posting under a female name? If you are not, then I think you two should arrange to meet up.

You write, re your BNP obsession: "There are a number of people who comment on Spectator blogs who are obviously BNPers but either hide the fact or try and present themselves as floating voters who are considering voting for the BNP"

Even if there were, so what??? The BNP is a legal party. It seeks voters. Some voters are dismayed by the Lab-Con-Lib party and are opting for stronger meat.

I loathe socialism, so won't be voting for the BNP. I "present myself as a floating voter", because although my natural home is the Conservative Party, if they don't dump the inept, petty-minded, incompetent socialist Dave, I intend to float over to UKIP.

"The Spectator is an intelligent journal read by intelligent people." You just said a lot of them secretly intend to vote for the BNP.

"Very few Spectator reader could be under the innocent misapprehension that the BNP is a democratic party rather than one controlled by a cabal of totalitarian Nazis." Oh, like the totalitarian Labourites and Dave's Taliban Tories you mean?

We are still clinging onto the concept of democracy by our fingernails. The BNP is a legal party. Get over it. Go and have a drink with Patricia Shaw.

Beer Moth

Vulture.

I would fail to see anything strange in the fact that the Dutch people might vote for Mr Fortujn after he had been dead two years.

We British are quite used to the idea of voting for those without vigour.

Anne Wotana Kaye

New development on the savage dog issue. The police have at last established the breed of the dog which savaged and killed that unfortunate little boy. It was a crossbred bull pit mastiff, and one of those deemed illegal to own. The police have now charged the owner of the dog, the child's uncle, not with owning such a dog, but the more serious charge of manslaughter. Ironic, that not only the child was killed by his uncle's dog, but even more ironic that the police are not charging themselves with manslaughter. The dog had been reported as dangerous and living in the area by the housing association which own the family's home, months before this tragedy took place, yet the police admit they ignored the report. No doubt they have only admitted they ignored this matter as there is too much evidence for them to deny any knowledge. Is there any precedent for the police themselves to also be charged?

egh

My original reaction was to post saying that there must have been a huge rise in dangerous dogs in latter day Britain, because I don't remember seeing any in the past - mostly I've known sweet, gentle, intelligent, loyal animals. But then I remembered.

I still have a small scar on my eyebrow because, as a four-year-old, I tried to pet a tethered farm-yard guard dog. My mother rushed in and rescued me rather as I, later and as a 50-year-old, ran across a stream of traffic to rescue my own sweet pet who was running away from some nasty people.

Then there was the doctor who gave me my first smallpox vaccination. He had kept Alsatians (German Shepherds), until one killed his little daughter. The smallpox jab made me very ill, but I think that was normal at the time. However, I later went to a school where nuns bred Alsatians as guard dogs. They built their kennels as a castle, and treated the puppies like princes; and none of those dogs ever hurt any of the students.

I also once had a back garden adjacent to one where several dogs were kept chained and neglected. My mother, then very ill, had been deeply distressed to see several of them attack another and maul it; she never sat outside again. Later, after she had died, I was equally distressed to witness them kill another dog, and I then reported both incidents to the local police -- which did me no good at all with the neighbours.

In at least some of those cases, dog-owners were required to license their animals. I don't think it made any difference, however; it's just a source of revenue for our masters - who treat us like tethered 'outsider' dogs anyway. I say they'd better watch out.

Nicholas

Anne, the issue of the police failing to act on complaints is one of the many aspects of their work that need attention. It is inconsistent. If this had been a frail OAP saying something untoward about homosexuality they would probably have been round mob handed interviewing if not arresting. They have become completely political and their response often seems driven by New Labour's ideological targets - or prejudices. Otherwise it is hit and miss whether a report, concern or complaint will get any action. If it doesn't the only recourse seems to be a complaint against them.

In the old days all reports to police would first be investigated to determine if a crime appeared to have been committed. Any decisions to arrest would depend on that preliminary enquiry. Nowadays it is does this report tick a box on the ideological hysteria list? If so, send paramilitary posse, smash in the door, arrest those accused, get their DNA and ask questions afterwards. Utterly repugnant as well as unbelievably stupid. The result of very bad police management, very bad Home Secretaries, a useless Home Office, the expensive distraction of the CPS, very bad law and very badly trained officers wielding their power as a blunt instrument.

It always amuses me how fond the British are of their literary and TV detectives, those quietly spoken old school gents, when the reality today is so very different.

James Murphy

Who'da thort it? News just in! Good old Saudi Arabia loudly debating the point of anyone attending Copenhagen in the light of the UEA ClimateGate scandal! - Bravo for the good old House of Saud! I'm growing a beard and putting my wife in a burkha immediately by way of gratitude. And what's even more delicious is that the 'useful idiot Leftists will be bent double, doing moral contortions as they desperately try not to appear 'waycist' or Islamophobic in criticising the Saudis! Ah the gods are just, after all!

Anne Wotana Kaye

Egh: There have always been 'rogue' dogs, just as there have always been two-legged ruffians. The difference is that in the past the authorities (usually police)reacted to complaints and the public felt safer. Also, dog fighting was as remote as bear baiting as far as the average person was aware.
Nicholas: Yes, Dixon of Dock Green, Inspector Frost, et al, as far from reality as a Fairy Godmother. I suppose there must be some decent police somewhere, but have never met them. They seem a lot of dingbats, as dishonest and cowardly as the Ministers who control them. They are one of the septic boils that have erupted under all these years of Nu Labour control. A source of infection destroying the very fabric of our nation.

In2minds

Anne Wotana Kaye @ 8.40pm -

“They (the police) seem a lot of dingbats, as dishonest and cowardly as the Ministers who control them. They are one of the septic boils that have erupted under all these years of Nu Labour control. A source of infection destroying the very fabric of our nation”.

And Nicholas @ 5.28pm -

“arrest those accused, get their DNA and ask questions afterwards. Utterly repugnant as well as unbelievably stupid”.

The police like the NHS are simply beyond hope.

peter smaill

The good news for Cherie Blair is that she should contest her lawyer's bill for the pathetic letter reprinted in the Spectator(5 Dec).

It contains: a spelling error (Gaddaffi/Gadafi(noted); failure to use commas to create valid parenthesis (para2); missing punctuation (full stop,penultimate para). There is the common error of stating "inference " when meaning "implication".(para 4).Furthermore, by suggesting the house in question, Waddesdon, as "Lord Rothschild's" (para 2), there is the potentially problematic third party factual issue of whether the gift of the house in perpetuity to the National Trust has been effective.Careless talk costs taxes!
After the revelations of the Blair couples primal scream mud bathing activities I'd have thought nothing like Charles Moore's article could be remotely embarrassing to Tony and Cherie. But certainly this ill-drafted letter is an embarrassment to the legal profession.

daniel maris

Never trust someone who gives inaccurate quotes. Wilhelm misquotes me. THIS is what I wrote:

"This will smoke out the BNPers here as well since they all love their staffies and pit bulls which help them look hard. "

It wasn't meant entirely seriously but I think my instinct was right - it touched a nerve.

Verity - I said Spectator readers are intelligent. I stand by that. You seem to be under the misapprehension that a racist or Nazi can't be intelligent. That's nonsense. Goebbels, Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich and numerous other Nazis were highly intelligent.

My point was that no intelligent Spectator reader could honestly be supporting the BNP as a way of protecting democracy, human rights, freedom etc etc as claimed by some posters here.

If you are thinking of voting you are in good company as I am thinking of also doing so.

Verity

In2minds - I agree that the police and the NHS are beyond retrieval ... but especially the police, which has fallen so low so quickly in every respect. Thirteen years, and wrecked.

At least the NHS has the solution that it could be privatised.

Far from being "the envy of the world" (although why did not one "envious" country ever copy it?) is the service provider to the world. I read last week that in one maternity ward/hospital, out of 80-odd women giving birth, only 18 had been born in Britain. I don't remember if any of the other 62 were English speakers or whether they required translators.

Why is this OK?

I think the moronic phrase "envy of the world" inculcated a show-offy, "look how wonderful and caring we are" mindset that lead to, among multitudes of other examples, that Nigerian woman coming to Britain for a free heart transplant.

Our police force genuinely was, until the Gramscis/Marxists/Trots got in, the wonder of the world. The NHS was always so-so and declining.

The police force in Singapore, though, is what ours used to be. So Sir Robert Peel's ethos lives on ... although somewhere else.

Verity

Well, as G'dafty writes his name in Arabic, there is no immovable English alphabet spelling. But the rest of your points are taken with glee Peter Smaill.

daniel maris

re Question Time tonight. I'd like to give a big up to the Muslim guy who spoke about the Swiss minaret ban. He was from Slough and talked about how the new religious schools (Muslim and Sikh) were dividing the local community (David Cameron please note). And, more surprisingly perhaps, he spoke in favour of the minaret ban on the basis that the minarets were in effect divisive.

Now, that's what I want to hear from UK Muslims - a real commitment to a united community and some appreciation that they are not living in a Muslim dominated society, and shouldn't have any expectation of ever living in one, but rather should make their peace with our society as it is.

I think people underestimate how many Muslims actually think like that guy. They are either Muslims who see Islam simply as part of their cultural heritage, but otherwise not particularly relevant to the modern age, or people who see Islam as now a private religion for the individual, not a vital matter of group identity.

It's difficult for them because their local communities tend to be dominated by the Muslim clerics and scholars who are the most reactionary. Our society should be doing everything possible to ensure guys like that can speak freely.

Peter From Maidstone

Daniel Maris, I also saw that, and thought it was a great comment. But it was greeted with silence! They audience couldn't boo him because he was Muslim, but they couldn't agree with him either.

I thought that the Conservative nonentity was useless and he really put me off voting Conservative. He had absolutely nothing Conservative to say about the Swiss move and joined in the condemnation of the exercise of democracy as being equivalent to extremism.

His response to questions about the a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty were also very weak.

Not very attractive at all.

Peter From Maidstone

Why are no posts being added to the Wall? It would really help to know if this is an automatic system for those who are registered or not?

Nicholas

Agree about QT. The muslim gentleman's well-reasoned comment and the response (or lack of response) it garnered demonstrated just how pernicious the largely self-imposed censorship of PC has become.

Agree about Lansley too. Weak and uninspiring.

And Dimbleby is a useless buffoon. His attempts to inject challenge to the panellists representing political parties is just irritating and rude. Be consistent with your ageism, BBC, and get rid of him.

Frank P

It is very difficult to believe that, given the hue and cry of the last week, that a question on ClimateGate was not submitted by the audience on last night's QT. So who decides what questions are chosen and why?

Likewise the Publisher of this Magazine chose not to feature it on This Week last night, despite the fact that his magazine had given front page coverage to it in this week's issue (albeit a rather non-committal analysis).

We wouldn't want to hold up the NWO by raising issues liable to embarrass the boondogglers in Copenhagen next week, I suppose. Just sayin'.

Just how far does this feckin' record-breaking fraud extend? It makes Bernie Madoff look like a 'Find-the-Lady' huckster in the Yuletide Oxford Street.

Verity

Daniel Maris says he thinks people underestimate the number of Muslims who think like this fellow. We have no way of knowing, but we do know that 150,000 Muslims believe in terrorism and jihad as a means to force Britain to adopt their primitive desert religion.

There are quite a few voices like this in France - and they get airtime - but the only other one I can think of in Britain is Saira Khan. Not exactly an intellectual heavyweight, but a loud, forceful voice and she says the right things.

Verity

Peter from Maidstone - You didn't really believe that promise, did you? They're looking for names so they can do credit checks on you and add you to their mailing lists (which I'm sure, like most mags, they sell on).

Wilhelm

Daniel Maris 1.49am

Bit waycist there , are you a BNPer ? do you have a dog ?

Ian Monier-Williams

This is my first post on the wall and the first time that I have read the postings here. It may have been naive of me to expect the same rational and relevant writing that the magazine is famous for, but I was disappointed at the level of bile and bitchiness that some of the posts contain. Come on wall fans - raise your game!

In2minds

Ian Monier-Williams, Morning! Nice to see you, I too am, “disappointed at the level of bile and bitchiness that some of the posts contain”. I had hoped for more, that is more bile and bitchiness. Still we share disappointment even though we disagree!

Peter From Maidstone

Ian Monier-Williams, it is not exactly polite to make the first post on a forum, (and one made after your first effort at reading any posts), one which criticises those who have spent quite a lot of time reading the magazine, considering their political positions, and engaging in conversation here. It might have been more polite for you to read rather more and perhaps contribute a post explaining your own position rather than simply criticising others. If the posts here are filled with too much bile and bitchiness then perhaps you will not have returned to read mine.

I know that I would rather read a post which has something to say about the desperate situation our nation finds itself in, even if there is some bile and bitchiness in it, than a whole website of mealy mouthed posts which prefer a polite subservience to the socialist and PC agenda.

If the Spectator were not so pinky-leftie at the moment them I am sure there would be less criticism of it than there presently is. But for some unknown reason it has chosen to make itself a competitor of the New Statesman.

EC

Come on then, Ian Monier-Williams, raise your game!

Beer Moth

Ian Monier-Williams.

Welcome - Wilkommen - Bienvenue...and all that malarky.

Don't worry mate, once Verity's rubbed your knackers with Fiery Jack you'll feel right at home.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Hi. Beer Moth:
Wat's rong wif DEEP 'EAT! :-)

daniel maris

Wilhelm -

I'm not a waycist, I'm a wee-alist. And I can detect the bad odour of a sweaty brown shirt at a hundred metres.

Wilhelm

Ian Money Williams

I await with anticipation and frenzied exaltation your next commemt, I hope it will be sharp, witty and insightful on a par with Cicero.

I wont be holding my breath, son.

MaxSceptic

Ian Monier-Williams, Welcome. I'd say your own level of 'bile and bitchiness' was par for the course (or am I mixing sporting metaphors?). To be really bitchy though, you need a suitable moniker. 'Monier-Williams' just won't do - it sounds like Harriet Harman's paternal great-uncle.

Nicholas

daniel maris: "I'm not a waycist, I'm a wee-alist. And I can detect the bad odour of a sweaty brown shirt at a hundred metres."

Doubtful on all three counts. Sounds more like bigotry, delusion and arrogant presumption to me.

Nicholas

Ah, just what we need, another supercilous prig to join the dubious duo of THX1138 and Patricia Shaw in making airy, disdainful, morally superior, bien pensant comments on the comments of the window-licking loons (so full of bile and bitchiness) that frequent these parts. Like First Class passengers peering down their aristocratic noses or through their lorgnettes at the scum in steerage. The reality of course is that the "angry" comments probably represent those who rail against the "frightening group-think that has its thumb on the public windpipe", and/or those "desperate to have a voice in a world whose collective mind seems to have become terrifyingly closed" (q.v. Melanie Phillips), in short the true insurgency.

Anne Wotana Kaye

I say, does any old gel or boy remember this schoolyard song?

Hot snot and bogie pie
All mixed up in a dead dog's eye
.........
The rest is too vile for me to continue, but the reason I have recalled it is because poor Tiger Woods is now metaphorically having to eat Gordon's favourite snack. Far better a bogie on the golf course.
Hope this shocks our latest blogger who has delicate tastes. Don't worry, lad, it's all good filthy fun!

EC

daniel maris,

Notwithstanding your highly sensitive, almost canine, olfactory powers, I think that you should ask Wilhelm the question that is troubling us all...

Is he, or has he ever been, a member of
THE CARAVAN CLUB!

Oh YES! It has been reported that BNPers hold members only weekend rallies where they are given to strutting about in their jackboots & SS uniforms.

Of course not all caravanners are nazis but you can't be too careful. In particular, campervan drivers have a nasty arrogant look about them when you dare to overtake them.

Nope, to be on the safe side we should licence and tax the whole damn lot of the buggers off the road.

I hope this helps.

Patricia Shaw

I wonder if Nelson would be happy to discuss Phillips's latest blog about the opulent conditions in which Palestinians live with a representative of Amnesty International?

egh

"I'm not a waycist, I'm a wee-alist. And I can detect the bad odour of a sweaty brown shirt at a hundred metres."

Gosh that sounds impressive in those m things; especially if euros are weealists!

Must be a long way from home though - I do hope the BNP aim to bring freedom back to footed things: 4-footed or otherwise!

Verity

Patricia Shaw writes, with her normal opacity of thought and expression: "I wonder if Nelson would be happy to discuss Phillips's latest blog about the opulent conditions in which Palestinians live with a representative of Amnesty International?"

As Nelson is the Editor of The Speccie, why on earth would he waste valuable time discussing any of the posts on the site? The posts are for readers who are interested in the subject to respond to, not the editor, for God's sake!

Fraser hasn't even discussed the Neather Report, in which the entire readership of The Speccie has an intense interest.

Wilhelm

'' I can smell like a sweaty brown shirt.''

You better have a bath then.

Martin Turnbull

History teaches those who care to learn that diversity between nations is good and diversity within nations is dangerous. The first gives people the chance to migrate to a society more in keeping with their own beliefs; the second tears apart the fabric of society itself by destroying any sense of loyalty to each other as fellow citizens.
The nation state is able to grant freedom of thought and expression to its citizens because it is based on territorial loyalty. States or political entities based on religion or tribe cannot allow such freedom because they cannot count on the loyalty of those outside their own group and will therefore seek to subdue or exterminate those perceived to pose a threat to the ruling class.
Critics of the nation state always point to Nazi Germany as a natural consequence of nationalism. Not so – Nazi Germany behaved in the way it did because it was ruled by those who put ideology before territory. It made it impossible for Germans any longer to refer to themselves collectively as “We” and to pursue social development as a people. Instead, it divided them into Nazis and anti-Nazis, between whom no compromise was possible.
Within the Muslim world there is no stable secular government and no prospect of stability because executive rule is based on religious belief and not on territory. There is therefore no room for peaceful dissent because any such dissent can only be regarded as a direct assault on the core belief by which the executive legitimizes itself.
The proof of this is readily seen by the fact that nearly all the world’s refugees are refugees from Muslim states fleeing to Christian / nation states.
Unfortunately, Muslim immigrants to Europe expect their host countries to adopt Muslim ways. That should never be allowed to happen, at least not if Europeans wish to retain the freedoms that their ancestors toiled so hard to create.
The ordinary Swiss have grasped it – you can either have Islam installed in your society, or you can have freedom. You cannot have both.

Alexandrovich

Just testing the censorship - not one remark so far about Bercow's wife and her views about David Cameron.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Listening to Politics Show I am disgusted, Whilst no fan of David Cameron, I find it distasteful the way the oikish commentator is banging away regarding Cameron's schooldays. These days, under this Bolshie dictaorship it is more honarable to have attended the equivalent of an old Borsal than a good public school, such as Eton. Bring back standards and throw Nu Labour and its ethics into the dustbin of history.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Addition to my blog above. Did anybody watch "Desert Island Discs"? The BBC non-biased interviewer Kirsty Young nursed Baroness Scotland through her childish choice of music and boring platitudes. Quite a contrast to the way Cameron was treated in another programme, as mentioned above. Why didn't BBC clone Young ask the Baroness if she could manage on the island without a Man (Woman) Friday?

Verity

Not a word in The Speccie or the MSM (except the Mail) about Mohammad Osborne (George's brother) converting to the cult of Islam. He even changed his name! Isn't that sweet?

That should be worth a few votes for UKIP - in case the weakness in the power to reason runs in the family. A friendly word, Mo: it's always better to move up than down. Our advanced Western civilisation was enabled by Christianity.

Verity

Alexandrovitch - I can't be bothered to Google it. What did this awful woman say about David Cameron, though?

Anne Wotana Kaye

Sally Bercow: Self-admitted drink binging ladette, when drunk ready for one-night stands. Now, I am not a prude, nor do I sit in judgement upon others. This woman obviously suits her husband, and is of the same level as himself. But, one thing concerns me, they have produced offspring. In view of the explosion of STDs, including syphilis, did both adults undertake medical checks before they brought these children into the world? This question will no doubt cause more offence than the Bercows' behavious, but it is such hypocrisy that has caused the rise in STD statistics.

daniel maris

Martin Turnbull lectures us about the perils of diversity - and then, ironically, praises the Swiss for their perspicacity in refusing to put themselves in peril.

I say ironically since Switzerland is clearly a diverse state. It includes three main linguistic groups; some 20 or 30 statelets; two branches of Christianity that have been in conflict for several hundred years; and two quite diverse cultural traditions (North European versus Latin).

One could equally refer to the USA as well - a highly successful and yet diverse society.

Nationalism is of fairly recent invention. And what a disaster it was - how much suffering was caused by the nationalistic wars between Europeans in the three hundred years after 1700?

No diversity is not the issue. The issue is "what sort of diversity?". You'd have to be mad to have invited a million Germans to come and make our country more diverse in 1935.

I think in the UK we have yet to sort out what sort of diverse state we with to be. We already had quite a bit of diversity - but we haven't really got a constitution that works well. We've ended up with a mix of archaic monarchism, unspoken federalism, parliamentary dictatorship and no voice for the public. It can't remain in that muddled state in my view.

Anne Wotana Kaye

I was surprised to hear a programme on BBC 4 Radio discussing the dreadful plight of refugees seeking sanctuary from Iraq. Secular murder between Sunnis and Shiites continues, each doing to the other what would be considered outrages if perpetrated by civilised peoples of Christian or Jewish faith. Rapes, torture by electric shock and acid for starters. The Kurds appear in an especially vulnerable condition, abused by Moslems of all sects, and the BBC even admitted that it is preferred to keep their situation as quiet as possible. Reason: many have sought refuge in Jordan, and if their persecution in Iraq was publicised, Jordan would come under pressure to offer them permanent sanctuary. The USA and Britain see no profit in publicising their plight either. These Kurds are among the people Saddam gassed and killed in the cruelest manner. Saddam, the monster who imbeciles in the West believe wasn't so bad after all, and should not have been removed. The position of the remaining Christian Iraqis is dreadful. These people, who state that they were the original inhabitants of Iraq are harrassed and tormented by Moslem Arabs and are caught between a rock and a hard place. I wonder why, a certain vile antisemite who regularly blames Zionists for every ill on earth, from crops that fail to cakes which fail to rise doesn't concentrate her venom on those who are making the lives of those living in Iraq a hell on earth. I think she is carrying a torch for the late and unlamented Saddam Hussein.

Martin Turnbull

Daniel Mathis is correct. I did write of the perils of diversity within a nation and I did implicitly praise the Swiss for their attitude to Islam. (Let’s not pretend the minarets were banned for aesthetic reasons; they were banned because they symbolize a way of life and a religious belief that are incompatible with democracy).

The diversity in Switzerland is indeed both linguistic and religious. However Catholicism and Protestantism are contained within the Christian church; German, French, Italian and Romansch are European languages and in the case of the last three, very similar in their structure and vocabulary, whilst German also draws on a significant heritage from the same source.

I would not agree that there is great cultural diversity between the Germanic and Latin groups because each is descended from Mediterranean culture in whole or in part, through the existence of the Roman Empire; but we can agree to differ there, Mr Mathis, because it makes no difference to the validity of my central point that a nation state is able to tolerate far greater levels of diversity within its boundaries (other than a readiness or even an eagerness on the part of some of its citizens to destroy the state altogether) because the underlying loyalty is to territory, not religious or tribal identity.

During both world wars, Switzerland remained neutral. The country was not destroyed by violence between the German, French and Italian Swiss, who might reasonably have been expected to support their linguistic counterparts in the warring nations. On the contrary, there was never any doubt that the first (and only) loyalty of Swiss citizens, whatever their first language, was to the Swiss Confederation itself, to the sovereign territory of the confederation and to the whole concept of what it meant to be “we” the Swiss.

Inviting a million Germans to settle in England in 1935 would certainly have been unwise, to put it mildly. Why? Because at that time, many of them would probably have given their loyalty not to Germany but to the religion of the Nazis and would therefore have sought to influence English culture accordingly. But, if there were a million Germans living in Britain today (there might be for all I know) would any reasonable person imagine that these German immigrants would pose a serious threat to the stability of British culture? Why not? Because their sense of identity is founded on their Germany as a territory and that identity is not threatened in any way when they live in a foreign country.

Contrast that with the state of mind of an immigrant to Britain (or to any Christian country) who is a practising Muslim. His fundamental belief is that ultimate authority rests with Allah and with the interpretation of the Koran (by whom, incidentally?) and that no man-made body of authority can contradict this. It is clear that his first loyalty will not be to the elected government of his newly adopted country; but will continue to be towards those authorities within the Islamic world that claim the right to govern him regardless of his whereabouts.

At the end of the Thirty Years War in 1648, it was agreed that huge forced migrations should take place within Europe. It was to be the ruler who decided on his state’s religion and citizens of a different religion were required either to renounce it and embrace the official religion and pledge loyalty to the ruler or to emigrate to a country where their religion was authorized. The same thing occurred in the 1920s with the mass exchange of Greeks and Turks between each country, based not on language but on religious affiliation. Tough as that must have for those involved, it almost certainly prevented years of subsequent bloodshed.

It is an old saying; but still right: You cannot serve two masters. It is for Muslims to decide which master they serve – the laws of the land where they have sought and been given sanctuary or the laws of Islam. If the latter, then better for everyone, including themselves, that they migrate to an Islamic country.

Martin Turnbull

Daniel Maris - my apologies. I just realised I had misspelt your name.

egh

Daniel Maris - I think you view Britain in our present situation: as a deconstructed land occupied by its enemies.

British culture and its unwritten constitution worked, heretofore; but surely we should remember that the development started long, long, before 1700. Britons had gradually asserted themselves and their rights against invaders, and our special set of diversities produced a fabric of compromises and balances that made the country the best I ever knew. The Britain I grew up in provided levels of freedom to think, say, and be that I've experienced nowhere else.

It wasn't perfect, of course, nowhere is. But it was a beautiful place, it was ours: and we retained the freedom to grow and develop further. But the commies and the euros got a hold of us and produced the mess we see now - I think we should include that in our considerations.

The deconstructionists of Britain strike me as a child who has broken the most precious heirloom in the world out of spite: to prove that it's base material. Oblivious of the terrible situation, the infant proudly takes the pieces to his parents to show that the object was never special. He expects them not to care, or to get a new one.

Among constitutions and cultures, though, I see no new models out there of 'acceptable' quality for us - certainly none that the euSSR presumes to manufacture and enforce.

Maybe Britons can once again mend our systems to suit the times. The cracks will still show, but then they always do. So bearing in mind that utopia is unattainable, perhaps we can avoid dystopia by careful resuscitation and nurturing of the wisdom that dumbing down has almost eradicated.

I believe that would require honest understanding of who and what we are, though; and of what we have stood for and accomplished in the past. If that involves re-assessment of the propagandized marxist versions, so be it. At least we can analyze all the pieces. Then we have a foundation on which to re-synthesise.

But I hope we never throw away the pieces and pretend they have no value. Not when those pieces constitute everything that mattered to our forebears - and therefore to us.

Verity

egh - 11:04 ... heart breaking.

What they have stolen from us ... and can we ever recover what they hacked off us with extreme malice?

Twelve years of a virus called Tony Blair and I think the entire political bloodstream is infected.

A bloodless coup.

I think, as a country, we are gone.

daniel maris

egh -

What a load of true blue tripe.

You bet it wasn't perfect. Don't forget we did execute our king, overthrow another, and we did have 5 million people out on the streets demanding liberty (the Chartists).

Constitutions are made by people.

The truth is our constitution is rotten through and through. To take one example, we are supposed to have a secret ballot but we now have about a third of people taking up the postal vote which can be subject to all sorts of pressures.

Our constitution is becoming like one of those irrelevancies of the Holy Roman Empire as the EU superstate grabs more and more power. Wasn't it pathetic the way we thought we had scored some kind of "victory" getting the nonentity Baroness Ashton elected as foreign minister. Only after do we find there were all these other important jobs going to French and German nominees.

Hughie

I've just seen Ed Milliband on Sky News suggesting that the Cockermouth floods were an example of AGW. Either he's stupid or he thinks we are.

The really frightening bit is that so many of the powerful across the world are all singing the same song because normally they can't agree on anything.