CoffeeHousers' Wall 7 December - 13 December

Anne Wotana Kaye

Let's see if I make it first in this forum!
Media busy with news that Gordon Brown wants depression tackled and depressed people returned to work. With a bloody depressive as prime minister I don't know what to say. Whilst feeling sympathy for those who are depressed, with a PM like Bruin what can we expect?

Ken

Is Amanda Knox the victim of negative press coverage? This has been relentless since she was first arrested? Did the Italian court find her guilty for a spurious reason?

Certainly I haven't seen any firm evidence in this trial other than vague circumstantial information about Knox's 'strange' behaviour after the murder. Hang on - she was barely out of teenage years. How many adolescents do you know that behave 'appropriately'??

How many people realise that the term 'Foxy Knoxy' does not refer to her doubtless sexuality - but to her style of defending when she played top amateur soccer in the USA - years before she went to Italy. Yet the term sticks - like mud and the smoke that 'always' means fire.

I am not convinced Knox was involved directly in this heinous crime. I could believe she was young and stupid enough to incriminate herself by acting stupidly at times of expected gravitas. I could also believe that she may have started out with a false loyalty to - someone - and been less than forward about the events of that few days.

Meredith is dead and that, as always, is unfair and tragic. I feel for her family. If it had been proven to me that Knox was a murderer I would support what amounts to a life destroying sentence.

But if she is a lying, conniving sex bitch - she must be a wonderful actress to fool all her family - who of course know her better than anyone else on earth. They are clearly and genuinely dumbstruck at the result of the trial. I feel even more for them strangely.

Meredith's killer/s should be punished. But it does no service to her to jail a potentially innocent person of a similar age.

The real force in this trial was the Press and the constant drip drip of deliberately negative opinions on Knox. She became a scapegoat.

Regrettably the Italian judiciary do not seem to have been rigorous enough to see through this guilt fog whipped up by journalists and reporters.

Truly a shameful set of events.

Pete-s

The giving up of the GB rebate and the growing controversy of the CAP should be brought up by the media.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6737797/Stitch-up-Now-France-excludes-Britain-from-special-talks-on-EU-farm-spending.html

With Bliar giving up £3B a year he must have had permission from Brown in the first place.

Nicholas

This morning I woke up to BBC Radio 3 news with three announcements one after the other referring to Gordon Brown doing this or that. No Prime Minister, no government, no other ministers - just Gordon Brown.

The BBC are trying to make a personality cult out of this muppet worthy of something from the 1930's Soviet Union or North Korea. Big Brother.

Vulture

@ Ken : YOU don't have to be convinced - it wasn't an 'Italian court' that found her guilty, but an Italian jury - who had sat through months of evidence which you and I have not - who convicted her.

The evidence was admittedly circumstantial but seemed pretty convincing to me: primarily the way she kept changing her story after her arrest. I used to report Crown Court cases and in my experience innocent people don't change their stories as the evidence changes: they have one story and they stick to it.

I think that Amanda Knox is as guilty as hell.

Austin Barry

Ken

"Truly a shameful set of events."

Eh?

Without being a member of the jury you seem to have decided Ms Knox is innocent, DNA evidence and attempting to fit-up an innocent man notwithstanding.

That her family think she is incapable of the crime is meaningless - Mrs Violet Kray always assured us that the twins were 'good boys' and Mrs Shipman was convinced of the good doctor's bona fides.

As a non-Jury member all you can safely assert is that, paradoxically, for you the jury is still out, but shameful? No.

Frank S

'Green' is now most often used as a qualifier to policies and attitudes which strike me as blatantly ignorant, arrogant, malevolent, and to people who are those things, plus also humourless. This last feature has been mentioned in a couple of posts I read today about greenie attempts to intimidate journalists:

http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2009/12/7/another-journalist-threatened.html

http://nlt.ashbrook.org/2009/12/climate-scientist-to-revkin-we-can-lo-longer-trust-you-to-carry-water-for-us.php

So, the word 'green' has been taken over by political activists, and now serves as a useful flag or indicator of double-speak, dirty-dealing, and dubious science. I have started asking others what 'green' means to them, and their replies have often been instructive to say the least!

Sam ARMSTRONG

Has anyone else noticed that London branches of fast-food chain SUBWAY have notices everywhere saying: "All meat Halal"?

I was hungry over the weekend and thought I would eat one of their subs. I turned on my heel and exited fast when I saw this notice.

If I were to approach a cow, and slash its jugular vein, then eat the cow, I would get done for animal cruelty. But in this weird world, SUBWAY can sell the meat on and it's fine.

Naomi Muse

As a reality check I put up a prospective petition on the No 10 web site.

The powers that be decided that it was an issue 'that needed to be directed to parliament' and not a suitable petition subject.

It was a tiny foundation brick in the construction of a good and honourable parliament. A small reality check that might stop some self-seeking prospective MP from signing up as it could be legally binding.

This is what I sent in:
"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to: 'set up a
document for all prospective MPs to sign up to stating that they
solemnly swear to provide service to the country with honour,
showing respect for all fellow-citizens. This should be done before the next
general election and apply to all candidates.'

We despair of politicians who appear to be self-serving,
lacking honour and fail to connect with us, or show concern or respect for
us.

The symptoms are clear. The expenses scandal, misleading
information; our questions are avoided and many other issues
which cause us not to trust politicians.

Attitude determines action.

All action should go back to the precept of respect for others.
Flipping second homes, charging living expenses, making profit
out of taxpayers’ money and milking the system would not occur
except in rare instances.

MPs are elected to serve the country (their constituents in
particular) and work for the common good.

All prospective MPs should understand this clearly and publicly
acknowledge that the principle of service with honour will
determine their actions, at the point at which they apply to
stand, by signing a straightforward declaration to that effect which
is a grave reminder that to serve is not to primarily self-serve.

The same reality check should apply to all prospective and
existing elected representatives in local government at all
levels."

Of itself it is nothing of note. Along with other attitudes expecting honourable behaviour together with an acknowledgement that it is a privilege to be able to serve as an MP, could lead to the tipping point where that hope becomes a reality.

Naomi Muse

I would believe the jury. I have not heard all the facts but they have.

Robin James

The arrogance of this government knows no bounds. Having sold our gold for 1/5th of its current value, abolished "boom & bust" so that we are now just bust, allowed uninterrupted immigration putting undue pressure on many public services, led us into one illegal and another unwinnable war, we are now told that the labour party should be allowed to continue to govern us because the alternative party is now led by an old Etonian. Blair Brown and their henchmen lost no time in appointing their cronies to the House of Lords (raising cash doing so) and in any event Blair is the product of a private and privileged education himself. The class war which the Labour party wish to reinvent is pointless and only designed to cover up their appalling economic record running the country into the ground over a period of 12 years. Unfortuanately the election process is heavily and unfairly biased in favour of The labour party who rule on behalf of at best 1 in 3 of those who vote and much less of the population if you take into account those who choose not to waste their time in the polling booths.

Rosie

On another topic entirely - I would really like to know what a potentially incoming Tory government would do about this country's counter-terrorism strategy, Contest 2, with its 4 strands of Prevent, Pursue, Protect and Prepare. I know the most about Prevent (which is interesting as an aspiration but does not appear to be working well). Can anyone enlighten me? (My knowledge of Prevent is at both an academic and practical level)

Verity

For anyone who hasn't already been there today, I strongly recommend a quick trip over to Rod Liddle's blog, which is sizzling. Over 200 comments so far!

Billy Blofeld

The Spectator should post a wall of shame / competence after the PBR.

The aim of the wall is to highlight and measure how badly individual journalists are taken in by Gordon's PBR distraction gimmicks, rather than report on matters of substance relating to the countries economic position and stability.

Verity

Knox tried to fit up that black bar owner who police investigations proved to be entirely innocent and nowhere anywhere near the scene of the crime. That fellow from the Congo or somewhere, Guede, opted for a quick trial and he confessed to being in on the murder and he said he acted with Knox and her boyfriend.

What kind of a person tries to clean a kitchen knife with bleach, unless trying to erase her DNA? (Didn't work.) She appears to have bought the bleach specifically to clean up after the planned murder.

What kind of a non-murderer kisses and canoodles wih her boyfriend outside the house where a terrible murder has taken place?

What kind of a non-murderer gets arrested and starts doing cartwheels around the police station?

The stupidity and naiveté of American lefties who think they're going to get the US Secretary of State involved in a perfectly legitimate trial in a perfectly respectable country beggars belief.

Murray Knight

Who's up for a military coup?

Martin Turnbull

I may have missed the obvious, but what happens to the previous Coffee House Wall blogs? Can we access them and if so how?

Ken

What I find shameful is that the media were allowed to wage such a long-term targetted negative campaign against Knox. Yes I do find that shameful.

There is a great difference between good accurate reporting and the detritus that has often passed for journalism over this case.

Before you lose your cool by jumping in where you don't need to - let me spell out what I personally think about the verdict. Like you I wasn't in the courtroom but this is my opinion.

1. I don't know if she is guilty or not
2. My fear is that the case has not been sufficiently proven.
3. I feel the media campaign has had a seriously weighting effect against Knox in this trial.
4. I worry that having now she has been convicted many will jump on the bandwagon to almost legitimise the guilty verdict.
5.I believe most if not all of the evidence was circumstantial.
6. She may be a nasty horrible little murderer - or she may not.

I don't think it has been proved either way.

But the media and those that believe what they say have probably made up their minds.. the wall is down - the international mob has yowled for Knox's head. I find that shameful.

Are there not enough wrong convictions in history to make you feel just a little uneasy about this case??

AAE

Further to Frank S -

On Day 1 of the Copenhagen shindig, can we just remember that the EU began life behind the curtain of being a Franco-German iron and steel cooperative. This conference is to set up a legally binding world-wide structure which will be the scaffolding of the socialists dream of world government. AGW is just the figleaf for all the usual tools of socialists. Redistribution, taxation, the use of slander and libel to abuse opponents, more and more layers of petty regulation but which criminalise offenders - in short, tyranny. We are dependent on articulate CoffeeHousers to keep this in the public arena, and those few journalists like Melanie Phillips, Mark Steyn, Chris Booker and wise voices at Standpoint, but there seem to be no politicians with the intelligent perception to see the big picture. Copenhagen looks less like part of The Long March, more like The Great Leap Forward.

In2minds

Sam ARMSTRONG @ 2.22pm – I agree. But I think you will find that many people won't respond here. The reason is there's a huge ding-dong going on over at Liddle's blog. So on matters concerning vibrancy all our energy has been sapped, were are exhausted!

Verity

Murray Knight - Me.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Frank S: Read your comments on Green with interest. To use an American expression - Zac Goldsmith, a renowned ecologist is very fond of the Green Stuff!
Verity: Alas, Little, sorry Liddle, saw fit to refuse my comments on Diana Abbott, a true coconut if ever there was one!

Martin Turnbull

Considering the amount of money the government throws at repairing the health of people who have contributed to their own sickness, would it not be a good idea to give a financial incentive to those who do try to look after themselves?
At the gym I go to, you often see elderly or fat, or fat and elderly people trying hard to improve their fitness level. Good for them.
Maybe free or subsidized gym membership for the over-60s would be a start. It would cost little in comparison with the expense of hospital.

Wilhelm

Went over to Rod Liddles blog and posted 127 comments on hypocrite and phoney Diane Abbot and the two black rappers who threw a girl into a canal. Did they get published ? Well, what do you think ?

Have you ever noticed the only people who get upset about ' waycism ' are middle class, guilt ridden white liberals who live in nice middle class leafy neighbourhoods far, far, far away from the ghetto. Send their children Tarquin and Daniel to private schools and would never ever dream of using public transport. Its strange, isnt it ?

Pie

Conjecture: Cameron's game is up.

Cameron's goal was to modernise the Conservative party, so as to increase the BBC and Guardian's coverage of these Tories. Climate change, same sex marriage, blah blah, everything anti-British and disgusting you can think of has been supported by Cameron. The modernisation strategy has worked and now the Tories are taken seriously by the liberal media class. Job done.

Next year we get to vote on the actual government that will be coming in. Due to modernisation, voting in the Tories will mean no new grammar schools, more same sex marriage, more funding for the climate leeches, European rule, blah blah. Cameron's done his PR man job of changing the Tories image. But there's no way a man of these policies deserves to become Prime Minister. These are the looney tunes policies of an out-of-touch toff.

Look past all the assertiveness techniques and marketing skills, and see that Cameron has realised that he's followed the wrong direction, and that his value as leader is approaching nothing. Modernisation has gone as far as it needs to serve the Conservative party's ends. Cameron is opposed to his own party on nearly every issue imaginable. Times have changed and the times demand a genuine person, rather than a phoney image master.

The job of Tory leader now calls for one who follows genuinely Conservative policies. It's time to get ready for a leadership election. David Davis or Liam Fox for the win.

Hughie

I saw Ed Milliband on Sky News this morning suggesting that the Cockermouth floods were manifestation of AGW. Now either he's stupid or he thinks we are.

Eamonn Holmes gave him a cushy ride with no hard questioning. No questioning at all actually.

It's frightening to thing the worlds most powerful are singing the same song about this guff when normally they can't agree about anything.

It beggars belief that one world group could be coordinating this ruse, but I'd love to know who it is. They have some power.

Wilhelm

Ken ( Inspector Clouseau )

'' Meredith is dead and that is always unfair.''

No kidding ? A police criminologist from Scotland Yard read Knox's diary and said on SKY news that she has a Rose West type personality. So there.

Alexandrovich

I suspect you may have a horse in this race Ken, however please list all the parents of murderers who have said:
"We knew all along they would end up this way. It came as no shock to us. They got the justice they deserved and there will be no knee-jerk appeal. Yes, we could tell from the outset and now feel a tad guilty about not addressing the warning signs earlier."

Patricia Shaw

Peace and Goodwill to all men?! What, including Palestinians then?! Crickey!

Speaking of which, Phillips has dodged the racist bullet which seems to have shot Liddle instead.

Case of mistaken identity, me thinks

Edward Sutherland

I've given up on the Coffee House Wall; nearly given up on the Spectator subscription as well-probably won't renew after Christmas-on account of its utter spinelessness over the Neather business.

John Richardson

I for one am glad that we have all moved on from that boring 'delibarate importation of millions to change the make up of the Country forever' business.
Thank goodness you're leaving the poor Editor alone as well.
He gives an undertaking.
Then he fails to honour it.
You ask him about it.
He ignores you all.
That's the way it works savvy ?

After all your still here.

Beer Moth

This bash over in Copenhagen. I have to admit I'm all at sea with the whole bit of it. This way one minute, that way next. How are we to know? Right now I'm coming round to being a bit sceptical about the sceptics actually.

But what was the American woman on about? Her who started talking about her grandchildren and let her intonation go all Yasgur's Farm and then fell to blubbering? She must have rehearsed it like that surely?

Verity

Has anyone read anything about anyone writing an exposé of Common Purpose? It seems very strange that there isn't one, doesn't it? I've Googled it but can't find anything other than that exceptional presentation by Brian Gerrish. Surely he cannot be the only person in Britain investigating this opaque orgnisation?

Martin Turnbull

I haven't had any luck entering anything on Rod Liddle's blog and I notice that it's getting very heated and there are lots of insults flying about. So...here's what I wanted to post there anyway.

Diversity between nations is good; diversity within nations is dangerous. Before getting shot down over this belief, I will elaborate briefly but hopefully clearly.
Diversity between nations enables individuals to seek a new life elsewhere if they find their beliefs and aspirations fundamentally incompatible with those of the nation into which they were born. Tens of millions of Europeans went to America for those reasons. America welcomed them – but, required them to become American in their ways and provided no government help whatsoever to new immigrants. Their own communities were expected to do this until the new arrivals found their feet. It worked. They did become American.
The millions of immigrants who have entered Europe in the last forty years, have not been required to fend for themselves and nor have they been expected to embrace the culture of the country that welcomed them and gave them sanctuary.
No society can remain stable if a significant percentage of its population is composed of newcomers for whom the host nation’s ideas, culture, religion and way of life are anathema.
What is a significant percentage? It depends on the cultural gap between immigrant and host. In Britain, a million French or Italian or Jewish or German immigrants would be assimilated with no problem because their outlook on life is virtually identical to that of the indigenous British. Another advantage is that they are the same colour. You cannot spot a German at five hundred yards; you can spot a black man or a brown one – and that is the tragedy of the situation. Colour is a badge you can’t remove. Whatever your own colour, you are prone to judging others by theirs. It is wrong and it makes life difficult for all; but it is as it is. Yes of course there are many people who make a point of accepting those who are different; but immigration has to be looked in the context not of individuals but of the whole of society.
Britain has 60 million inhabitants. If there were just 100,000 blacks or Muslims in the country, their presence would not be regarded as a threat by the general public. With perhaps two million from those groups now present, collectively they are regarded as a threat by the host population - not because of their colour but because of what their opinions and outlook are thought to be.
Liberals can argue as much as they like that such an attitude is wrong, ignorant and immoral. History shrugs its shoulders at them. Politics that ignore human nature are doomed to fail.
I have no doubt that most blacks and muslims desire only to live, work in a decent job, bring up their families and enjoy unremarkable, law-abiding lives. They are the ones who suffer most because of the lawless, violent and dangerous actions and beliefs of their brethren.
The only way to repair that damage is for the black and muslim communities to turn on those who break the law within their own group and to assist themselves in the creation of a properly integrated community.
It seems unlikely to happen.
We are left therefore to face the consequences of being governed by those who never allow reality to interfere with their beliefs. What a shame for all of us.

Derek

Edward Sutherland is lucky to be receiving his subscription. If I wanted to cancel mine, I would have to cancel a contract that the Spectator had failed to perform. Since delivery of the issue of 1st August, to date only three other editions editions have been received, and of those two popped together in one envelope as a sop. Standpoint's December was delivered on 6th December - ok, it's a monthly but all the same... it seems to be out-sourced to the same outfit in Sittingbourne. A Kafkaesque element has crept into the affair now, whereby I am overdue for a response from the Subscription Department to my email notifying them of further failures and asking them to provide replacements. Perhaps Spectator's Subscription Department could provide consultancy services to the Royal Mail.

There is an advantage for Coffeehousers though in this dilatory Spectator management - receiving bugger all for my subscription for such an extended period has largely removed my interest in posting comments. Should I employ the time writing to the magazine's advertisers? I don't want to become one of those nutters who can't simply pay their subscription, receive no issues and shut up.

Vulture

@Pie: can I congratulate you an an exceptionally perceptive and true summary of what Dave has done to the Tories?

As a result, we are faced with an exceptionally unpalatable choice at the next GE - (though, thanx to Dave's surrender to the EU, arguably it doesn't matter that much). I usually agree with the wonderful Verity, but where I do part company from her is over her insistence that Dave has to lose the Election and then be deposed in favour of a true Tory. IMO a continuation of Liebour rule, or, still worse, a LIb-Lab pact will certainly
spell the final end of England. So I would like to see a narrow Tory win, followed by the ousting of Dave when he makes a complete cock-up of it, as he inevitably will for the reasons you cite.

My candidate for the succession would be Liam Fox. Hague has already had a go, and besides, he has been complicit with Dave in the EU surrender when he could have had the power to insist on a referendum had he chosen to. Davis, too, blew it for me with his ludicrously self-important resignation/ hissy fit. Since then he has become the member for Al-Queda East, regularly speaking out for those who would blow us all to bits. He is a man of very limited
IQ and almost unlimited Ego.

As for the prospect of a military coup, while I would certainly be up for it - the Army being abt the only British institution left with a shred of honour, decency and public respect (not to mention efficiency) I have had quite a lot to do with various Generals and Colonels recently - even a Field-Marshal - and they are still wedded to our constitutional norms which have been so comprehensively shredded by LIebour. So we come full circle: of the two evils, Dave is to be (slightly) preferred to Bruin. But only slightly. He's truly terrible. (Sigh).

MikeF

I thought of posting this at the end of Rod-Abbott blog, but perhaps this is a better place. Either way if we are talking about making assumptions of criminality and using stereotypical images to reinforce them you can hardly do better than this:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Border-patrols-to-keep-criminals.5891772.jp

Sarah

Peter Hitchens makes it clear why Cameron cannot seal the deal:

"There's nothing necessarily conservative about Toffs, or about the rich. Small 'c' conservatism, especially moral and cultural conservatism (which the wealthy elite, Labour and Tory, often snobbishly despise as suburban) comes from other places."

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2009/12/toffs-at-the-top.html

Anne Wotana Kaye

When the Berlin Wall finally came down, apart from the joy of families and friends reunited, there was the scenario of a Pandora's Box flung open. Previously Nazi officials who became Communist bureacrats were let loose on the Western world, switching titles, and swiftly asserting themselves under a new regime. Two sides of the same coin nevertheless. Criminals of an extremely high intellectual calibre, from the previous USSR and other Eastern Bloc countries came out of Pandora's store and with their wealth were able to manipulate the property markets, llegal drug industry and prostitution. When this vile Nu Labour is finally defeated, I wonder what the result will be. Will the BBC disgorge its socialist-orientated employees and management, to assimilate into a new Britain. Or will the Mandelsons, Balls, Harmons,Straw, Darlings et al change their politics outwardly, whilst still keeping control and gripping Britain as fiercely as ever by its wind pipe?

Vulture

PS> I see that even Tory loyalists are getting very restive abt Dave. There's a good post on Conservative Home today from its Editor Tim Montgomerie who calls attention to today's Times editorial criticising Cam for failing to 'seal the deal' and give people positive reasons to vote Tory rather than just vote against Liebour.

Time says Cam is at his best when up against it and at his most flaccid when he appears to be coasting to an easy win. Reading between the lines I think Tim and other loyal Tories are just asking Dave to be what he never can be: a real conviction Conservative.

Raffles

Rbs Board rumoured to have resigned. Sure it wont upset too many people but given the tax payers own so much of it, it would be nice to think we could get some money back and one does need a competent board.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Patricia Shaw
December 7th, 2009 8:08pm

Report this comment

Peace and Goodwill to all men?! What, including Palestinians then?! Crickey!

Speaking of which, Phillips has dodged the racist bullet which seems to have shot Liddle instead.

Case of mistaken identity, me thinks
=========================================

It's those naughty Zionists once again!
What a pity the mainly Moslem Iraqis dont celebrate Christmas, maybe then they'd stop murdering each other. I soubt it. It is their raison d'etre.

London Calling

Iraq dossier WMD evidence 'came from taxi driver' - MP
I thought is was bad enough that WMD evidence was obtained from a student thesis
now it turns out it was a forty five minute taxi drive in Baghdad…

You couldn’t make it up…but someone did….

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8401473.stm

Austin Barry

There's an amusing comment from Rod Liddle on Alex Massie's blog ("Obama & Reagan").

Rod surely is the most pungent and amusing columnist in the UK. With Rod on this side of the Pond and Mark Steyn on the other, there is hope for us all - or at least we'll be amused as HMS Britannic sinks or is boarded by Islamic pirates.

egh

Here's testing the censor, yet again.

All I have to say is: Murray Knight - Me too!

Maximilian

@ Martin Turnbull at 5:29 pm

These links should take you to the previous two Walls. Further back than that, I‘m afraid I’m as lost as you are.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5563533/coffeehousers-wall-23-november-29-november.thtml

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5583283/coffeehousers-wall-29-november-6-december.thtml

In2minds

Austin Barry @ 1.34pm – Yes I spotted that too. I'm really enjoying the Liddle blog at the moment but have not made much of a contribution, as with the Massie blog on the same subject. Some of the newbies going at Liddle are like shooting stars, short span stuff but still entertaining and some have taught me a thing-or-two.

Also most of them expect to be taken seriously, that is to miss the point, a bit like the Monier-Williams man. For me even the really clever people who write with elegance are 'up for it'. Now what's wrong with that?

However, I wonder if Massie and Liddle have learnt from all this? If you look at the Liddle blog there are 158, 329 and 9 replies to his latest three articles. The score of 9 is for the football article which, I think, shows that most Speccie folk see football as systemically dull. Pity Liddle does not! Oh and I see Clive Davis, remember him? Is getting well without us, as we without him!

Beer Moth

This man is a hero. Beer gut and all. Just didn't nut him hard enough.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8402557.stm?ls

Patricia Shaw

Anne Wotana Kaye - Define your argument clearly please

In the meantime, Phillips and Nelson aside, Andrew Neil is the real culprit, encouaging this shoddy nasty little rag to repalce construtive debate with racist bigotry, especially from the likes of Phillips, and of late, Pollard.

Ken

Wilhelm & Alexandrovich - unlike both of you, who, like me have not been privvy to all the evidence in this case, I do not have a solid cast-iron belief that Knox is guilty.

Again unlike both of you, I do not share your 100% certainty in the correctness of jury verdicts. Have either of you heard of the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four? All convicted in a similar way - and all innocent.

At the risk of labouring the point - unlike the two of you I do not know whether or not Knox is innocent or guilty. But for me enough doubt remains for me to consider the possibility that she may be innocent - the case for murder not having been proven (to me) by a mass of circumstantial evidence amidst a hate campaign whipped up by international media and an ill-informed public.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Patricia Shaw: Good day!
My argument can be defined very simply. You appear to be both a bigot and a rascist whenever Israel is mentioned. One can certainly critisise a country as one sees fit, but you blame all the ills of the world upon one small country, which in my opinion is the only democracy in the Middle East. The fate of the Iraqi Kurds, as I wrote of in a previous blog, just pass you by, as do the insults and mockery British subjects are subjected to in this very country. I am referring to the fanatic Islamists who behaved so vilely in Luton and other places, as fallen British military were honored. You appear to be filled with an obsessive hate for Zionism. Again, this is your choice, this is still a fairly free country, and in any case you can practice your prejudice openly, especially if its against Zionists and not Imans, who seem a protected politically correct species. Finally, if you think "The Spectator" is such a rag, why bother to read it so avidly? Life is too short to waste on literature or anything else we find distasteful. I hope this answers your question.

Ken

WHAT A PAIR OF BERCOWS!

Are John and Sally the new Hamiltons?

Can't you just see the future crass TV show territory these two could infest! (Watch out Jeremy Kyle et al)

More to the point - is the office of Speaker now at it's lowest ebb. These Bercows make the previous incumbent seem somehow ... dignified? Is that possible?

Ho Ho Ho - a whole new career in PR calls to Johnny and Sal. Those who can transform an image from 'Gorbals Mick' to dignified Speaker of the House of Commons must surely be snapped up by image consultants for people with mononym nicknames and mysterious South American 'peers'.

Nicholas

Patricia Shaw at it again. What a tiresome individual.

Rather than the Spectator my concern is the shoddy, nasty little party in government, personified by people like you, which forces rather than encourages the replacement of constructive debate with state sponsored propaganda, political correctness and repression.

What you don't like to hear you want to shut up and you do it by pejoratives and then legislation. You and your kind are fascists Patricia Shaw. Shoddy, nasty little fascists. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and set up a fake charity with all the other strident, gobby fascist wimmin, to lobby for the suppression of the Spectator and its readers because we write and say things you don't like to hear? That is about the measure of your pea-brained "construtive (sic) debate".

Verity

AWK - Israel most certainly is NOT the only democracy in the ME. Jordan, while being a monarchy, like us, is a beacon of democracy and an absolutely wonderful country.

Lady Longford

Ken,

I think, re the Knox case, that you may be suffering from a version of Lord Longford syndrome. There are many sufferers of this disease, most to be found in the ranks of the penal-reform industry. Perhaps you should apply for a job in the Ministry of Justice. Or on the other hand you could just have the hots for Ms Knox.

Martin Turnbull

Maximilian - thanks for the links to the old Coffee House entires

egh

Martin Turnbull: you can also type 'Coffeehousers' Wall' into the search box top right. Then click on the list of past weeks, as required.

Derek

Patricia Shaw Would you define "racism", please?

Anne Wotana Kaye

Ken: naming the animals should take a double-barreled form: Berk-Cow

Anne Wotana Kaye

Verity: Sorry I haven't responded to you posting until now, but somehow I seemed to have missed it. (Was it held up)? You are basically correct, although I believe the Jordanian monarchy is rather more than the purely constitional one we have here. Jordan does have a parliament, and does quite well when compared to many ME and indeed other countries too.

Frank P

From our old friend and recently dormant furriskey (good to know he's keeping his finger on the repulsive):

WHERE IS RICHARD BRANSON WHEN YOU NEED HIM?

Muslim suicide bombers in Britain are set to begin a three-day strike on Monday in
a dispute over the number of virgins they are entitled to in the afterlife.

Emergency talks with Al Qaeda management have so far failed to produce an
agreement.

The unrest began last Tuesday when Al Qaeda announced that the number of virgins a suicide bomber would receive after his death will be cut by 25% next January from 72 to only 60. The rationale for the cut was the
increase in recent years of the number of suicide bombings and a subsequent shortage of virgins in the afterlife.

The suicide bombers' union, the British Organisation of Occupational Martyrs (B.O.O.M.) responded with a statement that this was unacceptable to its members and immediately balloted for strike action. General secretary Abdullah Abulbul Amir told the press, "Our members are literally working themselves to death in the cause of jihad. We don't ask for much in return but to be treated like this by management is a kick in the balls."

Mr Amir accepted the limited availability of virgins but pointed out that the cutbacks were expected to be borne entirely by the workforce and not by management. "Last Christmas Abu Hamza alone was awarded an annual bonus of 250 virgins," complains Amir. "And you can be sure they'll all be pretty ones too. How can Al Qaeda afford that for members of the management but not
72 for the people who do the real work?"

Speaking from a cave somewhere on the Afgani/Pakistan border where he currently resides, Al Qaeda chief executive Osama bin Laden explained, "We sympathise with our workers' concerns but Al Qaeda is simply not
in a position to meet their demands. They are not accepting the realities of
modern-day jihad, in a competitive marketplace. Thanks to Western
depravity, there is now a chronic shortage of virgins in the afterlife. It's a straight choice between reducing expenditure and laying people off. I don't like cutting wages but I'd hate to have to tell 3,000 of my staff that they won't be able to blow themselves up." He defended management bonuses by claiming these were necessary to attract good fanatical clerics. "How am I
supposed to attract the best people if I can't compete with the private sector?"
asked Mr. Bin-Laden.

Talks broke down this morning after management's last-ditch proposal of a virgin-sharing scheme was rejected outright after a failure to agree on orifice allocation quotas. One virgin, who refused to be named, was quoted as saying "I'll be buggered if I'm agreeing to anything like
that........it's too much of a mouthful to swallow".

Unless some sort of agreement is reached over the weekend, suicide bombers will down explosives at midday on Monday. Most branches are supporting the strike. Only the North London branch, which has a different union, is likely to continue working. However, some members of that branch will only be using waist-down explosives in order to express solidarity with their striking
brethren.

oldtimer

For Climategate watchers, another good post here:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/09/hockey-stick-observed-in-noaa-ice-core-data/#more-13939

Whatsupwiththat rarely disappoints; this post is another worthwhile read, providing a much needed historical and geological time perspective.

Rhoda Klapp

Where's my last comment? It had absolutely everything, anti-AGW, anti-EU and with a little dig at the Spectator to boot. Brilliant, it was. If I could only remember it.

Pie

Why aren't my comments getting through on various threads? Is it a technical error, a legal issue, or do the editors not agree? Anyone else having this problem? I really love the freedom given to comment leavers on Conservative Home. You don't have to wait to see your comment and you are not subject to censorship (within very good reason). How about a freer comments section Mr Nelson?

Ken

Lady Longford

You couldn't be further from the truth. All I am saying but no-one listens is that I am not convinced personally that Knox is guilty. From what I've seen no real solid case was proven. I've seen enough cases where the police arrest the first likely suspect and if nothing and no-one else crops up - pushes the case through to get a 'conviction'. Of course there have been a good many times when such convictions are later deemed unsafe and overturned.

Ijust have a feeling that there are things about this case which do not fully ring true. I'd want to see the true killer punished. If Knox is that killer then so be it. But surely someone apart from me can contemplate the possibility of a miscarriage of justice in this case?

David Ossitt

Patricia Shaw.

"Anne Wotana Kaye - Define your argument clearly please"

"In the meantime, Phillips and Nelson aside, Andrew Neil is the real culprit, encouaging (sic) this shoddy nasty little rag to repalce (sic) construtive (sic) debate with racist bigotry, especially from the likes of Phillips, and of late, Pollard"

Who are you to ask any one to define anything; on the evidence above I’m surprised that you can spell define.

Verity

Did it strike anyone else as strange that in the cartoon above the Coffee House masthead, featuring Boris and Cameron, Cameron is depicted as having brown skin and looking a bit sub-Continental? Are the people in London really that daft? Why stop there? Why not put Cameron in a little Bakri Omar Muhammad chapeau and sketch in a little beard?

Greg D

Frank P, you are a cheeky chap indeed. I like that one - it blew me away!

Verity

Ken: "But surely someone apart from me can contemplate the possibility of a miscarriage of justice in this case?"

Well, yes' the entire militant wing of the People's Republic of Washington State. It's their senator who has tried to get the US Secretary of State involved in a perfectly legitimate trial, held in public, in a fellow democracy.

Those who did not sit through listening to, and looking at, evidence in a court room for over a year, and observing the behaviour of Ms Knox in the courtroom, should not assume that they have a better insight than the judge and jury do.

And don't forget that Knox accused a perfectly innocent local businessman, Patrice Lamumba, of being in on it when he not only had an alibi, but dozens of people saw him going about his normal business in his bar that night.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Latest from the Goebbels Directorate of Nu Labour Polical Correctness.
THOMAS THE ENGINE IS SEXIST AND SUPPORTS CLASS DISTINCTIONS!
If nobody believes me, and thinks I've finally flipped my lid, I attach a link to prove I am not wrong.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234547/Thomas-The-Tank-Engine-branded-right-wing-conservative-demeaning-women.html

Verity

AWK - I am still trying to post that George Osborne's brother has gone commando and converted to Islam in a very silly outfit.

Ken

Verity: I discount openly partisan types like those in the US campaigning to get 'one of their own' back etc. I don't condone Knox's tactics or behaviour at all. I do know how irrational some hormonely ravished adolescents (like Knox?) can be - how gobsmackingly stupid their behaviour can be. Knox played right into the sensationalist hands of the press/media hungry for 'a good story' and never recovered.

I'd like to have seen the solid scales of justice (if they still exist) squashing such elements in this trial. I do believe the media set the basic agenda here and I'm not convinced that the court system in Perugia remained aloof from this.

In a way I hope I am wrong and that Knox is the evil little Rose West type everyone seems to think she is. But then Jade was villified in UK (I could not stand her personally) and was then raised as a latter day saint by the same people who threw rocks at her a few months earlier.

One always hopes that true justic can ride over these irrational swells and troughs. That's the core of my point. I don't think they have in this case. If so, an innocent girl may be condemned to a quarter of a century in custody for something that was done by someone else - who may be walking about freely. That's all.

EC

AWK - thanks for the TTTE link.

The blogosphere is ablaze! Professor Shauna Wilton (Political Studies, University of Alberta) has made Rod Liddle look like a minor or even amateur iconoclast.

Great publicity for all concerned - with the Winterval break only just around the corner.

Mind your Gramsci! As 'Nick from Sacramento' put it on the DM Blog, "Professor Shauna Wilton is a typical communist leftover who has entrenched herself in academia."

I was wondering what this particular agent of cultural cringe change actually looked like. Why? To see what sort of feminist she appeared to be. Feminists are always either fat or thin, never normal, and always ugly. I found a photo in the Edmonton Journal: http://tinyurl.com/yadcmkk

As feminists go, this one appears to be building up a healthy head of steam. I estimate about 200 psi and rising.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Verity: I saw your posting last week. The man is completely bonkers. Truth is stranger than fiction.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Re: Thomas The Engine - It wasn't Nu Labour, it was a Canadian nutcase who made the proclamation. Still, I'm sure Harman et al will jump on the bandwagon destroying Thomas's reputation. They tried to do it to Noddy!

Frank P

For some years now Nick Cohen has been masquerading as an 'insider critic' of the Left; his mask fell off last night on This Week with his disdain-packed little vignette on sceptics of the AGW religion. When expertly eviscerated by The Boss, with the assistance of both sidekicks Itchy and Scratchy, Cohen's visceral hatred spilled over the seething cauldron that is obviously his real self, with much hissing and spitting. I think the worst part of it for him must have been the tepid faint praise of his piece during Abbott's contribution to the debate (she couldn't go the whole hog and join the 'enemy' but her resentment of Cohen's past treachery shone through). He really put his foot in it when he suggested that a leak of the Speccy office emails would produce as big a scandal as the UEA fiasco. Andrew Neil's reaction to that was masterful. Obviously Cohen walked into a trap and as a result we also at last got some inkling of where Andrew stands on the issue, despite the somewhat ambivalent stance of most of his editorial staff at the Speccie in their quest to please everyone. This was This Week back at its best. More of that please, next year (we will forgive any silliness next week for the 'festive version' of this year's last show).

Nicholas

EC- Yes, she has the look of one of the pigs in Animal Farm.

Reading the article actually reveals it to be worse than the headlines. And of course the female marxist bully completely misses the irony that the comrades have been brainwashing and poisoning the young with their view of the world for several decades and are still doing so. Or that their big fat red-starred controllers are usually infinitely worse than the big fat top-hatted controllers they replace.

And yes, I'd so much rather have a deranged and mad-eyed, menopausal marxist "baroness" waving her zealot's flag and crusading to ban this or that than an erudite, middle-aged, hereditary English nobleman, at one with the land, conscious of his duty, suffused with reason and no axe to grind, in our upper house. Yes, what an improvement. What progress. Tick the box and weep.

Derek

Verity's post may have been held up while liberals at the Spectator HQ debated the implications of her language. I have viewed a photo taken at the ceremony and there is something of the pantomime Aladdin or possibly dame about the costume to justify the word "silly"; but "gone commando" is I believe an American slang expression which, in the English legal circles in Hong Kong in which I moved in the 1980s at least,used to mean having taken a decision to wear trousers without first putting on underpants. There does not seem to be any evidence of that, at least from the photograph which I have seen. The expression may therefore have given the gentlemen in Old Queen Street pause.

Verity

Ken - Jade didn't kill anyone. She was just a lout who got cancer and did die with some grace.

"I do know how irrational some hormonely ravished adolescents (like Knox?) can be - how gobsmackingly stupid their behaviour can be."

Dear God, the woman's 22 years of age. Not some hormonally ravaged 14 year old!

An open court of law in a civilised country found her guilty. Perhaps your problem is, living in Britain, you have become unaccustomed to people being punished with purpose for their gross offences against a civilised society.

That gal's a thrill killer.

Verity

Nicholas, well said!

Derek - Amusing post. I used the phrase aware of what it means. I was referring to George Osbourne's brother Mohammad recklessly discarding the underpinnings of our advanced Western civilisation. That's why I wrote that he'd 'gone commando'.

EC

Why is it the case that militant feminists are usually also three-baggers?

Ken

Verity: You miss my points completely. I was NOT comparing Jade and Knox. I was comparing the effect of the media in BOTH cases and how thick media-led people often jump howling & spitting bile on board the GET THEM stories or bawl like little children (over Saint Diana or Jade's death)

I am not a member of the lilly-livered 'let the ASBO detritus off when they attack a pensioner' Brigade. FAR FROM IT.

I support strong decisive justice and punishments commensurate to the crime - ALWAYS.

But you then need to be as certain as it is possible to be that your judicial system is delivering accurate verdicts.

You have decided that Knox is a thrill killer. OK so if there was a death penalty involved would you sentence Knox to death? Are you that sure? Or are you like the howling harridans at the foot of the Guillotine during the Great Terror baying for the decapitation of the latest aristo?

I will try to get it across again.

a)I do not KNOW FOR SURE who killed Meredith.

b)It MAY or MAY NOT have been Knox.

c)Knox is a strange girl possibly caught up in an out of control situation and handling it stupidly.

d) The media have played a VERY prominent role in thie case

e) I am uneasy at the verdict. Something does not feel right to me.

f) I feel the media have 'led' this case far too much.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

Let's hope so - Merry Xmas to all our readers

Andy Carpark

On another thread, one of the regulars observed that all goes quiet in here between the hours of twelve and three. He is not wrong. Doubtless our betters are sitting around with napkins stuffed into their collars, quaffing pints of claret and expectorating gobbets of chicken into each others' faces as they debate the prospects Boris's hypothetical leadership challenge and other vital stuff. Not for nothing did the recently departed jornalistic doyen Keith Waterhouse list his one recreation in Who's Who as 'lunch'.

Vulture

@Ken: You have devoted far too much of your week raising questions abt Amanda Knox's guilt without answering a couple of queries yourself.

Viz: 1) Why would an innocent person change her story at least three times after her arrest?
2) Why would an innocent attempt to frame a real innocent person (Patrice Lumumba)?

3) Why would a jury, having heard the evidence for months, unanimously convict an innocent?

You ask whether we are sure that she was guilty. Sure I'm sure. So, it appears, is everyone else on this thread except for you.
The jury's NOT out. The verdict is Guilty.
Take her down.

Frank P

Vulture

Ann Coulter buried any doubts about Amanda Knox last night on the O'Reilly factor last night. Guilty as charged, wicked as Satan's sister.

Verity

Ken, No. I did not miss your point completely. I got it very clearly. No need to “try to get it across again”. I think we are all able to grasp your points. You are infatuated with thrill killer Knox, right down to the point of styling this 22 year old woman a hormone ravaged adolescent.

“But you then need to be as certain as it is possible to be that your judicial system is delivering accurate verdicts.” NSS.

“OK so if there was a death penalty involved would you sentence Knox to death? Are you that sure?” I’d listen to the appeal, and then decide. She implicated a completely innocent man: This bar-owner Lamumba, who was seen by many customers working in his bar all evening. That is not the act of an innocent person wrongly accused of a crime. It is cold, calculating and completely self-serving. She cleaned the murder weapon with bleach, obviously thinking that bleach would destroy her DNA traces. It didn’t. Who uses bleach to clean a kitchen knife? In fact, she had bought two bottles of bleach for use in the small cottage. Who buys two bottles of bleach? Unless they anticipate a very large cleaning job coming up?

A window had been broken to make it look as though there had been an intruder. But it was broken from the inside. The only people who had been in the house had been poor Meredith, the completely innocent victim, Knox and the boyfriend and one other person – Guede. When the police drove up, Knox and the boyfriend were standing outside the cottage waiting for them, kissing and canoodling.

When she was taken to the police station, Knox was still on a high and did handstands and cartwheels round the police station.

BTW, What is this pretentious “Merry Christmas to all our readers” deal?

Patricia Shaw

You have to wonder, who would make a better editor for the sorry Spectator?

Nelson the avowed racist, who gleefully perpetrates Phillips' falsehoods about Gaza and repeats racial slurs against Palestinians,

Or Knox, a murder suspect beloved of the US right.

I guess it depends who you re trying to impress.

Austin Barry

Just in from the Global Warming Circus:

"The Prime Minister upped the British figure at the last minute from £1.2 billion to £1.5 billion - the largest national share - to encourage bigger offers, particularly from Spain and Italy."

Which recalls this quote from Napoleon Bonaparte:

"The great proof of madness is the disproportion of one's designs to one's means."

Brown is a chump. An absolute chump.

Austin Barry

Patricia Shaw

Your posts suggest that you may possibly be quite mad, but treatment is readily available and it is possible, with chemical assistance, to work through the more florid episodes even if you may be both physically and intellectually monocular.

Verity

Patricia Shaw - "Or Knox, a murder suspect beloved of the US right."

Wha'?

It is the Washington State and American Neanderthal lefties who are crying foul over the conviction of Amanda Knox. Most of them had probably never heard of Italy before this story became big news and don't trust "foreigners".

Derek

Patricia Shaw.

Is it permissible in your world to repeat or even initiate cultural slurs against Palestinian Arabs? I haven't myself noticed any racial slurs against "Palestinians" in the Spectator's pages; but perhaps, for instance, you believe that carrying reports of the looting and destruction of the Gaza greenhouses can be characterized as such. Perhaps you could have a go at defining "racism" for us as I requested earlier. I think the exercise may show that you have your language in a twist.

Derek

As Ms. Shaw struggles with the problem of how to present us with a definition of "racism" which does not either expose her remarks against Israel as ridiculous or trap them in the same net that she is trying to set for others, she might like to take a short, improving rest from her labours by reading the speech of Andrew Roberts which Melanie Phillips publishes in full on her blog of 9th December.

I do not yet see Patricia Shaw's name among those commenting on Andrew Roberts' speech, but I have noticed that she takes a rather sharp view of Ms. Phillips writing, though not - so far as I am aware - of the work of Mr. Roberts. I hope this does not mean that she is planning to analyse the speech without first having read it, and prefer to suppose that she will adopt a nom de clavier on the site, such as the esteemed Henry Sidgick.

Verity

Derek/Patricia Shaw - Palestine, Gaza, Israel are down the hall at Melanie Phillips. Many thanks.

Nicholas

Is Ed Balls a Muslim? The reason I ask is that in his letter to the Spectator this week he wrote:-

"I disagree with the views expressed, as would the vast majority of British Muslims."

With that strange turn of phrase and his expensive fitting out of his London HQ with a prayer room I begin to wonder.

Ken

Verity:

Your name means truth (with overtones of hope). The pursuit of truth demands an open-ness, a willingness to consider other possibilities even if you personally find them distasteful or irrelevant.

Watch this video and ask yourself if your rigid beliefs about this case actually do correspond to the meaning of your name.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8409263.stm

I'm done knocking my head against brick walls over this. My only hope is that true justice is done without fear, favour, prejudice or media interference.

Ken

Verity

Nicholas, v good. He might attend the same mosque as Mohammad Osbourne, George, the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer's, brother.

Verity

Ken, the mahatama des nos jours, writes, re convicted killer Amanda Knox: "My only hope is that true justice is done without fear, favour, prejudice or media interference."

I doubt if the lefties in Seattle and their state Senator have a lot of sway in courtroomns in Italy.

daniel maris

Ken -

Yes let's hope true justice is done and Amanda Knox serves the next 25 years in prison. However, I think we can be fairly sure that American diplomatic pressure will result in her early release, then she can write a book about how innocent she is and live the rest of her life as a millionairess. While Meredith's memory fades to nothing. Shame on you.

Derek

May I recommend Caroline Glick's article, Narcissists and Madmen;to my mind, an effective skewering of liberal mauvaise foi focusing on Copenhagen and Tehran where tragedies are being spun for us all (http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2009/12/narcissists-and-madmen.php)

daniel maris

I see the McCanns are back in Portugal. And that, my fellow democratic citizens, is all we are allowed to say on the subject although they can speak freely as they wish.

Beer Moth

daniel maris.

You're allowed to say a bit more than that. Spit it out man.

Beer Moth

Derek

Thanks for the link. Glick now bookmarked.

Paul B

Why has a British court given Tiger Woods the following injunction against British Newspapers.
http://tinyurl.com/ycmj6f7

Its a bloody disgrace. I for one would enjoy reading the spurious facts of his goings on, it will provide titillation and what right to privacy does the newspaper infringe. If you can`t do the crime..

Woods get the wood out....ooo er Mrs!!

EC

Nicholas, Is Prince Charles a muslim?
http://tinyurl.com/ybkn2oy

Verity

Daniel Maris - I don't think there will be an any American "diplomatic pressure" put on Italy with regard to murderer Amanda Knox. The citizens of the People's Republic of Washington State want her to be magically innocent, and that Washington state senator is looking to make a career out of this and get a national profile, but I don't think there's much appetite in the country at large for Amanda Knox. In other words, bandwagon time; but I don't detect a lot of outrage outside the state of Washington and among some feminists left over from the Eighties.

In addition, I think Hillary Clinton is too sophisticated to let an event like this interfere with diplomacy among allies. And Obama, let's face it, is interested in no one but himself.

MaxSceptic

Amanda Knox seems to be the bete noire du jour. In the absence of any real motive I remain unconvinced (the 'basic instinct' kinky-sex-game-gone-wrong motive the prosecution alleges appears flimsy and lacks corroborative evidence).

I know: it was Foxy Knoxy who took Madeline...

Verity

Max Sceptic - Convicted killer Knox played soccer when she was in junior high school (age around 13 to 16) and was so skillful and quick that her teammates called her a "fox in a box". As her surname is Knox, it didn't take it long to morph into Foxy Knoxy. The junior high nickname has absolutely nothing to do with the recently tried and convicted sadistic thrill-killer.

This is a gal who likes taking bizarre risks, as in, she caught the eye of some man on a train in Italy and they went into the loo and had sex. She lives for thrills.

Your comment regarding little Madelaine McCann was in appalling taste and Dr and Mr McCann have done nothing to merit that comment. Making light of a tragedy to be thought entertaining on a blog is nauseating.

Peter From Maidstone

Just saw myself on Songs of Praise - Christmas Special - for a few seconds. The programme was filmed some months ago at the RAH and was interesting. My wife and I felt like some of the youngest people there! And we probably were. But it was good fun.

Frank P

EC (11.53am)

'kin 'ell!

I'd better keep my eyes skinned for minarets on the roof of Sandringham House; I could hear the muezzin's call from where I live. And there was me thinking I was doing a good job, helping the 'Defender of the Faith' by keeping an eye on HM's Norfolk gaff as I take my constitutional with the trouble & strife each day. What are we going to do with HRH?

What a wonderful shit-stirrer you are! :-)

Wilhelm

Maxseptic

You are being facetious in regards to the Madelaine case, grow up, son.

MaxSceptic

Verity,

If all the participants (male or female) of 'brief encounters' went on to commit killings then the planet would be strewn with bloody corpses.

In the same way that a spliff (joint) or two does not lead to mainlining heroin, casual sex and other such cheap thrills do not lead to murder.

Regarding the McCanns: I accept that my comments may, in your opinion, be tasteless. Feel free to skip my comments. (I shall, however, continue to enjoy your trenchant comments).

Verity

Max Sceptic, No.

If all the participants (male or female) of 'brief encounters' went on to commit killings then the planet would be strewn with bloody corpses.

That’s true. So what? They don’t.

How many manipulative American girls ride on trains in Italy and give someone the cue for unintroduced sex in the loo?

I know, you wish there were more and that they were riding your train, but Knox has a history as an unalloyed thrill-seeker.

In the same way that a spliff (joint) or two does not lead to mainlining heroin, casual sex and other such cheap thrills do not lead to murder. Proof, please.

Regarding the McCanns: I accept that my comments may, in your opinion, be tasteless.

The Leftie, pretend courteous, concern for the feelings of others: “in your opinion”. Feel free to skip my comments. Doesn’t everyone?

Derek

Frank P. EC is a stirrer indeed! On the ball though perhaps? Mr. Pipes does adduce information which begins to assume a pattern,no? The Financial Times Weekend Arts Section's lead story recounts how after 1989 the Romanian Securitate and nomenklatura morphed without great difficulty into the country's renascent capitalist class. Meanwhile the Spectator in its issue of 7th November begins to give chapter and verse for the treasonous connection of certain members of the Labour Party and its trade union allies with the Russian state. What then would be more natural than that those at all levels of society with a taste for authoritarian and perhaps totalitarian systems should transfer their loyalties to Islam.Wasn't something very similar at the heart of our constitutional battles in the 17th century?

Nicholas

EC, Frank P and Derek - just before this Wall comes down - yes, the apparent attraction of trendy lefties to Islam must reside in admiration for its authoritarianism and a desire to clone and subjugate society. The Nazis were also enamoured with Islam and New Labour is very similar in many ways to the Nazi party (certainly closer to the Nazi party than old Labour). The relationship between New Labour and Islam bears further scrutiny but the sinister and unhealthy overtones are obvious in the most cursory review of news stories and societal developments. By focussing approbation on the "extreme" elements of Islam, New Labour's artificially engineered society is induced to accept more easily the other "more moderate" aspects.

Anne Wotana Kaye

This morning I feel like Humpty Dumpty, so before the wall comes down (as Nicholas states), I will have a good whine. The computer hasn't arrived, promises, promises. It should have been here a few days ago, but despite endless phone calls from my end, there are yet more excuses. "Its coming any day now," I am advised in terrible Far Eastern accents, or at least that's what it sounds like. Of course there is no proper phone number to call, a damn call centre, different buttons whilst a voice keeps hissing that my custom is important, I am valuable, bla bla, bla. Why have we allowed things to come to this pass? I bought the damn thing truly believing in my naivity that it was manufactured here. Now at this late stage I am informed it is being shipped from Shanghai. To sound corny, ormust be a bloody slow boat from China! No wonder British manufacturing, banking, and everything else have gone down the spout. I am ready to declare war on all dealers who use call centres and despite NOT being Green, I don't see why my purchases should be shlapped from the ends of the earth. Let's start a revolution!

MaxSceptic

Verity,

In my salad days I had my share of splifs and cheap thrills.

I did not progress to 'harder' drugs, and have - to date - not killed anyone.

Proof enough? (But you've skipped this comment anyway....)