What do Muslims think?

Austin Barry

Unhappily Islam permits lying. It is called “Al-taqiyya” and is permissible to further the faith.

Daniel Blaning

'The first thing that is refuted is the idea Muslims live parallel or segregated lives..'

I am currently living in the Netherlands and can refute the above comment. I see the majority of Muslims living here as living parallel lives.

Who financed this report?

Beer Moth

An "empirically-based debate about sentiments"

You're getting in a right tizz about this Eurabia thing aren't you Daniel?

Andy Leeds

I think the survey needs to be treated with some caution. It does not echo what have been my experiences of Muslims and Muslim communities here in the UK. There are huge problems within the Muslim communities regarding integration and radical Islamic preachers. We should not bury our heads in the sands merely on the strength of one suspect survey.

Sarnia

Another NL mistake was to foster faith schools thereby encouraging separatism rather than integration. The studies seem to suggest that many Muslims and perhaps Roman Catholics and Protestants might have benefitted from this, particulalry if their various religious events were given due respect.

Andre

This survey and its conclusions are a nonsense. Wander around Accrington,Leeds, Antwerp, Berlin and Malmo. Integration? Fiddlesticks.

DavidDP

Interesting research. It's a shame it's needed, but it's good to have material refuting some of the more swivel eyed baseless claims about muslims.

Publius

"so why focus on Muslims?"

As I recall, there was precious little focus on Muslims until they started killing us.

Now Muslims seem to receive wall-to-wall coverage, and, particularly in the case of the BBC, the endless attempt to understand in order to condone.

Which rather suggests to me that terrorism (sorry: in BBC-speak that's "militancy") works rather well against the West's soft post-modern self-hating bogus-liberal underbelly.

As for your own lack of focus on Muslims, why change now? It looks like it's because you have unearthed a bit of positive spin that you hope might counter the far more obvious evidence that we have a dangerous fifth column in our midst?

Verity

Awwww … they’re just like us, really, innit?

“I don’t write about Christians, Jews or Buddhists, so why focus on Muslims?” Uh, because the Islamics are on a jihad and intent on taking over the continent of Europe and Britain and Ireland? Because Buddhists and Catholics and Jews aren’t aggressing against the native populations, who they are intent on out-breeding? (Oh, yes they are! That is why Allah decided that men could have four wives “if he can afford them” and as many slave girls as he liked: to breed warriors for Allah.

“At any rate, I don’t like talking about collective groups, much as I prefer not to be talked about based solely on my heritage.” Yes, but this group is intent on conquering Europe for their god. I think it is quite legitimate to discuss them in this context.

As Austin Barry points out, one of the many norms of Western civilization to which they do not adhere is taqya and kitman – formalized lying and deceit in the cause of furthering Islam. If it is in the cause of furthering Islam, it is not only permissible, but desirable, to swear a lie on the “holy” Q’ran in the name of Allah. In fact, they get points for it.

“I have certainly shied away from the subject, fearing that emotion and prejudice, rather than argumentation and empirical data, would dominate the debate.” Oh, I don’t think you need be so dainty, Daniel. Many of us kicking around here have lived in an Islamic country and I think I can identify two or three who work part time in the ME, or at least regularly go there on business for a stretch of time. You should not assume the same level of ignorance as your own in the commentariat here. Nor the same level of po-faced self-righteousness.

Verity

David DP - "...more swivel eyed baseless claims about muslims."

Could you expand on some of these swivel-eyed baseless claims, please? Are they more, or less, swivel-eyed than the ravings of Captain Hook, for example, or some of those nasty, aggressive uppity men and women costumed like stage villains who reviled our soldiers on their homecoming parade? Their loyalties appear to be to their far-off tribal communities than to the Britain that most of them were born in.

Daniel Blaning asks a good question: Who financed this report?

daniel maris

Your link did NOT take us to the survey, all its questions, methodology and so on.

Reading the Open Society Institute, it appears to be funded by George Soros or one of his charities. It's clear the website has an opinion about the Muslim community in Europe. It is NOT a neutral polling organisation.

Until I see the details of the survey I refuse to take it seriously.

John Richardson

"There is a lot more,so I recommend you read the report in full."

There is sure to be a lot more from where this came from and therefore I will certainly NOT be reading this report.
Instead I might suggest visiting, living in, a place you want to know about.
Only those who opine for a living waste their time with 'empirical data' about human experience.
For example, I was born and bred in Leicester. The idea of cultural integration or harmony there is an unpleasant joke. That Muslims, for example , 'see themselves as nationals' in Leicester, simply shows how totally banished from the public sphere any trace of English,white,Christian hertiage, has been.
That's my experience.That's my hometown.
Thats why Muslims might not feel as much at home in French Paris, or famously international Berlin. Perhaps I need more empirical data to think this ?
Anyway....

"The first thing that is refuted is the idea that Muslims live parralel or segregated lives."

More empirical gibberish.
Having taught in 99.999% Muslim schools in London I respectfully disagree.
I still remember the shock when I told a class in Leicester the Muslim population of the UK was 5%.
Their estimates ranged from 95% upward.
They thought 'Christian' ment the drunks and prostitutes hanging around the telephone boxes outside our School.

True.Uncomfortable.

Chris lancashire

I live in a town with very high levels of Muslim immigrants and would agree with many of the comments above that integration is fairly minimal. However, it is growing and as generations succeed first and second generation immigrants, it is accelerating.
I would probably prefer not to be starting from a point of such high concentration of Muslim immigrants but,given where we are, there is decent hope for future generations.

Herbert Thornton

Another important - indeed vital - factor that the article misses is that no matter how peacefully inclined Islamic communities may be at any particular time, they are, by their nature, exceptionally fertile ground in which fanatical extremism can arise and spread.

Beer Moth

DavidDP

Please indulge the knuckle dragging, low of brow, Islamophobic ranters among us: 'swivel eyed baseless claims about muslims.'

Avudale

A Gallup poll in May 2009 yielded some interesting results.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/107512/moral-issues-divide-westerners-from-muslims-west.aspx

Muslims are far more against unmarried sex, gays, abortion and porn, with British Muslims the worst on every count.

Nicholas

Re Taqiyya: Qur'an 3:28: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them".

I hope that a Muslim will be able to comment more authoritatively on this belief and how far it may have influenced the report's findings. I also hope that this thread does not degenerate into a "swivel-eyed racist" attack by "swivel-eyed lefties" although I see that DavidDP has started the ball rolling (sigh).

Random man

Most public literature on Islam focuses on the start of the religion when mohammed was in mecca and Islam was in the minority. Very little, if any, public discourse or discussion is given to the later stages of Mohammeds life, conduct and teachings when Islam spread to Medina. According to all Sunni and Shia schools of Islamic thought (Hanifi, Maliki etc) the teachings at this stage in his life take precedence over his earlier teachings if there is any conflict. This principle of 'arbrogation' is applied in all doctrinal teachings. The problem with this is that these are the most violent aspects of the Koran, with Mohammed instigating and prosecuting dozens of battles against unbelievers and engaging in extreme violence.Tribes of Jews are beheaded by Mohammed, women and children sold into slavery, Wives of enemy tribal leaders are taken as concubines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_qurayza

Non muslims are accorded second class status and are subject to degrading restrictions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmis

and the brutal punishments and backward teaching of Sharia law become manifest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law

The problem is that none of this is covered in any public debate, discussion, seminars etc. It is casually and coveniently airbrushed out of any public discourse and does not give the public a full picture of the nature of Islam, Mohammed and his teachings.

Youssef

Please, stop using taqiyyah everywhere you want to discredit the views/values/opinions of a muslim without actually knowing what taqiyyah means. Even the majority of the muslims dont know what taqqiyah is. Sunni muslims, dont have a history of taqqiyah and have never practised it. It is, or was, a feature of shi'a islam. Used to conceal ones shi'a belief when threatened with death by a non-shi'a muslim or non-muslim ruler.

Taqiyyah is not ment to advance islam or the spread of it. It was used by shi'a muslims to stop them having their heads chopped off.

Derek

Of course these aren't in Europe, so that's alright then - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1235763/Pictured-Islamic-militants-stone-man-death-adultery-Somalia-villagers-forced-watch.html

Jez

Awwww, come on Daniel try and get your own material!

This is just a copycat attempt of the Islamic worlds 'What do non-Muslims think?'

How many times are we treated to Saudi Arabia's or Pakistan's mainstream establishment / media outlet's 'hand of friendship' type survey's on how their minority religions feel?

"Absolutely loads, Jez!" i can hear you all say!

Yes, nothing fills me with joy more than tuning into Al Jazeera or Press TV on my Sky package to witness the multitude of self sacrificial gestures of friendship and (hey, unofficially of course) even the fiddling of data to hoodwink their own populations into accepting diverse, alien and even aggresively hostile religions!

So, so Wonderful- and a Happy Christm.... whoa, nearly forgot; A happy 'Winterval' to one and all!

Well done, Daniel. Well done.

Tanuki

I'll consider Moslems 'integrated' into modern culture when the first Islamic same-sex wedding occurs, and the first gay bar opens in Wakefield or the Manningham area of Bradford.

Frank P

According to the Daily Telegraph today in an article on the front page, The Rt Reverend Stephen Venner has called for a more sympathetic approach to the Islamic fundamentalists. The Taliban in particular should be admired for their religious conviction and their sense of loyalty to each other.

The RR Venner just happens to be the C of E Bishop to the HM Forces.

Hmmnn. Are you sure you’re in the right hole, Bishop?

But I’m sure that question has already been asked by the the actress.

Read it all: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6806263/Taliban-can-be-admired-for-religious-conviction-says-forces-bishop.html

Augustus

In the 1200 years between the 7th Century and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire after WW1, the Middle East and large areas of Europe and Asia were under Islamic domination and rule, and these Muslim states were all ruled by Islamic law. There was no seperation between religion and state
and the Muslims were the ruling elite, and anyone else were treated as underdogs. Directly after the Ottoman Empire fell two parallel dreams suddenly appeared. One was the pan-Arabic nationalism which strove to establish a united Arabic area in the ME. The other dream, which was later to be represented by groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood, wanted to blow new Islamic life
into the world. By the time the Islamic Republic of Iran was established, the striving for world domination had actually manifested itself in the form of a state. This led to the nine years war with Iraq which cost millions of lives, and which weakened Iran for some time. The theory that Islam is the 'religion of peace', and that the House of Islam and the House of War
are seperate, is a fabrication of the 20th Century and a political ploy.

As far as the immigrant Muslims in Europe today are concerned, there is no doubt whatsover that they have brought the whole baggage of their culture with them. And what is more, they will increasingly try, one step at a time, to convert indigenous Europeans to their ways of life. Not necessarily all the ordinary Muslims, going about their daily business leading a normal life. They may not even know that this dream exists. Many may even be illiterate. But the elite, the teachers and preachers amongst them; they think, and write, and believe in this dream. That does not mean that an attacking war is about to take place, but it is a war nonetheless. A war with words is sufficient, coupled with ethnic marriages, and perhaps four times as many children as the host nations produce. Only a few, but even so, a significant few, are violent. Remember, after 9/11 took place, how many Muslims applauded and danced for joy.

The only answer is to say that when Muslims come to live in Europe they must play by our rules and live in a society which is liberal and democratic. They must integrate and somehow develope a Western form of Islam which differs in principle from what Islam has been in the past, and still is. Religion and state must be seperate. Islam must become just a personal religious journey through life, with no political overtones. Nothing else is acceptable.

Mike

Unfortunately the Open Society Institute is rather lacking in its patronage info other than George Soros nor does it explain how this survey was conducted. Just like the recent charges against CRU over global warming, without an open book on the Q&A & survey over Muslim attitudes, one has to treat their claimed results with skepticism. The only point I would make is that Muslims who make up the majority of a town or area are bound to feel at home as they have already turned it into a mini Islamic commune.

wrinkled weasel

"I have certainly shied away from the subject, fearing that emotion and prejudice, rather than argumentation and empirical data, would dominate the debate."

And so, Daniel, now that your sensitivities are salved by data that seemingly backs up your world view, now you are ready to talk.

File under: stable door, horse, bolted

daniel maris

I think it's quite disgraceful DK is promoting this survey's results without giving a proper link to the survey.

One should of course put a health warning on all opinion surveys - depending on the lead-in questions, it's quite easy to get a desired result. For example in this case you could have : "Do you agree as a Muslim that Islam takes precedence over national feeling?" "Do you agree that following the teaching of the Imams, it is possible to be both a good Muslim and show civic pride in your local area?" "Do you feel civic pride in your local area?" "Do you think the feeling of civic pride can be extended to take in a whole country?" "Do you feel pride in and identify with your country?" You then excise the lead in questions from the survey report and only give the answers to the last one.

It would be very easy to do. I am not saying it has been done in this case but the fact the Institute is so committed to a certain viewpoint makes one a little suspicious of these survey results .

I'd prefer to trust people's actions than survey responses.

Verity

It is key that people like Daniel Korski remember that Muslim (men) have a religious directive to pray five times a day.

Now, follow this closely:

The man gets up in the morning aware that he has an obligation to go to the mosque for his first prayers. When he gets to the mosque, he takes off his shoes, washes his feet, takes off his watch, tie pin and/or earring if he's a trendy, rings, bracelet and whatever other jewellery, before abasing himself in the now familiar comic position.

After release from the iman, he puts it all back on again. And leaves the building ... already planning his next trip because he has to go through this five times a day. He has to walk, or drive and park, there.

They're planning to go to prayer, travelling to prayer, preparing for prayer, praying, putting all their gear back on, going back to work or whatever, and planning the next prayer trip (or, in the case of Ed Balls' department, their next walk down the hall), when they wash their feet, take off all their jewellery, blah blah blah again.

Five times a day. Think about it.

Think about going to church, synagogue five times a day.

Their mind is always focussed on the next trip. When to leave. How the traffic will be. Where to park ...

Their diety occupies occupies their minds.

Verity

An absolutely brilliant post, Augustus, and thank you!

An issue with one point, where I think you were overly-generous: "the only answer is to say that when Muslims come to live in Europe they must play by our rules."

They can't, Augustus, and your post posits that. They will never stop gnawing away at the underpinnings of our Christian, heritage under our flag of "religious tolerance", which they don't accord within their own ghastly system.

How long, in this instance, and I am serious, before an adulterer in Surrey is buried up to the neck and stoned to death, or a homosexual is beheaded on the Yorkshire moors, and 'elf 'n safety was elsewhere arresting a pensioner for having nail scissors in her handbag?

Topsy turvy. Destablisation of an entire society, which has been ongoing for 13 years now. That's a long trudge, and it's been successful.

Seven years more? Twelve years?

You are being primed.

The Chinese say "Softly, softly catchee monkey...".

We are the monkey.

Geoff Miller

What's all this nonsense about attachment to Cities? Muslims are commenting on attachment to where they live - i.e. Amongst other muslims - hence Leicester did well.

As for "only" 39% of muslims not associating with the country they live in (conveniently NOT broken down by nation)?

Even if true for the UK (setting aside the fact that Muslims are expected to lie and deceive infidels) that would make around 1,000,000 UK muslims who have declared antipathy towards the UK.

Enough said...

They cannot, will not, live peacefully amongst us.

The future is bleak - history will repeat itself and Islam is threatening Europe, its peoples and civilisation all over again.

Shaun

'As Austin Barry points out, one of the many norms of Western civilization to which they do not adhere is taqya and kitman – formalized lying and deceit in the cause of furthering Islam. If it is in the cause of furthering Islam, it is not only permissible, but desirable, to swear a lie on the “holy” Q’ran in the name of Allah. In fact, they get points for it.'

Sorry but this just isn't true. Taqiyya is a thought within Shia Islam that it is better to live under persecution by pretending not to believe in Shia Islam than it is to die, or for others to die, or to suffer needlessly. It dates back to the Umayyad period and the persecution of the Shia after the death of Hosein.

This is in no way a mainstream Islamic belief because it is very specifically tied to the historical experience of Shia Muslims and it's not to further the cause of Islam but to either prevent yourself or another from suffering oppression. The vast majority of European Muslims are Sunni. A relatively minor Shia teaching from the 8th Century is not something that would matter to them.

Shaun

Lindsay Nation

Mr Korski.

There seems to be some doubt about the provenance and reliability of your reference (Soros report?). Did you also draw on such disputed sources for your recent apologia/explanation of so-called "man-made" global warming.

You can't just invite these chaps (extremist/fanatic types of any dimension) in for a cup of tea and then "she'll be right". Leave that soft stuff for the Cameron-Osborne brigade and pray that they will never be tested.

Roy Smith

It's alright talking about Muslims with tidy little data lists, but to be critical would be grossly incorrect and bordering on breaking the law. Even if we take into account their relatively recent intrusion into English life, no protestation to the underhand sneaky little operation that brought them here is tolerated. This is left for the comments section of which most correspondents don't mince their words. It is only when the public speak or are able to speak that we get the true feelings of any particular view out and about. Why shouldn’t the profound religious Muslim topic be different from any other religious topic? It is different, vastly different!

Lady Amelia

Verity

your posts are always worth reading but please check your facts first or you undermine all the good and valid things you say.

There is no obligation to pray in a mosque. There is an obligation to pray. in a muslim city it is common to see people pray on pavements, on bits of grass, or on their office floors. there is no obligation to travel to a mosque. Facts before opinions please.

Peter From Maidstone

Verity, I found your last post rather offensive - though I am not suggesting that it be censored :-). I seek to occupy most of my day in thoughts of God, and try to pray the Hours of Prayer through the day. The Muslims copied these from the Christians of the East. And the prostration should not be mocked for the sake of mockery since there are Eastern Christians who still prostrate themselves in prayer and did so long before Mohammed copied them.

The issue with Islam is not the fact of prayer through the day, nor the manner in which that prayer is performed, but the teachings and socio-political practices of Islam which threaten our society.

Austin Barry

Our domestic Muslim chums may have difficulties reconciling integration with
Sura 8 of the Q'ran:

"8:39. And fight them (that's us playmates) until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism) and the religion will all be for Allah Alone."

One does feel though that across the West the infidel worm is turning.

Keith D

Why focus on Muslims Daniel?Maybe its because every violent conflict in the world has an Islamic context.Are we to assume that Muslims in the West have disowned the Korans call to kill or convert the infidel.

Why would an invader not feel attached to a city already conquered?

Of course we in the UK are fortunate that our government has been so welcoming to our invaders,opening our borders to all,financing separatist faith schools and running a benefit system that encourages our demise through mere demographics.

Of course,I am well aware that my concerns are those of a mindless xenophobic nut who has been quite rightly disenfranchised by my marxist superiors.

It may surprise our New Lab politburo to know,I am not alone.

strapworld

Why am I humming 'Onward Christian Soldiers'? Why have I dug out my old vhs copy of El Cid and Gordon? (Both hero's incidentally look remarkably like Charlton Heston!)

I can see the sadly deceased Gordon Brown strapped to his trusted stead leading his army against the infidel on the beaches of South Shields!

If History is going to repeat itself then, of course, we will win!

michael

'lies - damn lies - statistics'

michael

Al-taqiyya...

a whole host of 'good works' with which to embellish respective salvation c.v's.

'The vast majority' of interviewees per chance?

Vulture

US squillionaire George Soros financed this report.

He also financed Obummer's Presidental campaign.

Makes you think.

salieri

A thoroughly facile post, Mr. K. This survey does not "refute" or "show" anything whatever: at most, it queries or suggests.

It would be interesting to know something about the respondents and how they were chosen. Presumably known extremists were not selected for interview?

In any case, don't you find even the declared statistics interesting? Others have already pointed out that you can readily feel a sense of belonging to a place that you have already taken over, but isn't it significant that 39% do NOT have a sense of belonging to the country in which they live? That 31% do NOT agree (at all) that they get on well with people from other backgrounds? And - if your syntax is correct - that 36% do NOT have respect for the law?

The silliest observation of all is your comment that they care about the same things as the rest of us. Really? You mean, therefore, not just local bus services, schools and health care but also tolerance, freedom of thought and expression, and (deep breath) freedom from being shouted down by moronic bigots and blown up by the their more extreme brethren?

Patricia Shaw

Gee vulture, I wonder what it takes to make
YOU think ??! In the meantime it's nice to see all the regular race hate mongers playing together so nicely.

Archie

What do Muslims think? Who cares!

Yarnesfromhorsham

Agree with Augustus - "playing by our rules" Even so we allow some crazed Imam to spout incitement on our streets week after week. Can you imagine the local CoE vic getting away with that in down town Iran.

michael

This would be the same islamic community that wants to pull down Der Koelner Dom.

Or, closer to home, wanted to ban Santa in Brum.

I wonder if Mr Soros gives a hoot. I supect he's readying for GEORGE v GEORGE .

...whose backing the pound?

TomTom

I would not trust anything connected with George Soros. Leicester was mainly Hindu but the increasing Muslim population is leading to increased assertiveness and friction. Why didn't Soros visit Bradford where Muslim expansionism does not have Hindus to replicate Indian communal politics but simply Kashmiri politics ?

The report is superficial and meaningless. It does noone a service especially since Leicester, Bradford, Leeds, Burnley, Oldham have all produced characters to populate MI5 files.

The loyalty of Muslims to a Grerat Britain with a disintegrating sense of naional identity shows how facile the aged ex-pat Soros has become. Noone can be loyal to a political system that lacks structure or coherent values.

If Muslims can be "loyal" to such a chaotic society they are clearly without any sense of values with regard to family, law and order, or fair play....because the majority population finds itself affronted by the absence of any coherent structure in these very areas

Austin Barry

Patricia Shaw

Many thanks as always for your considered comment. What race is Islam by the way?

Keith D

How tiresome.Islam is a politico religious doctrine and not a race.Period

Tiberius

Is the muslim family in you street, which puts up Christmas lights on their house, practising al-taqiyya? And if so what is the other family, which doesn't mark the festival in such a way, practising?

Derek

Peter From Maidstone On the question of prayer: doesn't it rather matter what people are praying for? I doubt for instance that you and a member of Al Qaida are praying for the same things when you pray. As to the position, the bum in the air posture which Verity, and many others, finds comic is an expression of submission of the will; the prostration of the Eastern Orthodox Christians, one would suggest, is an expression of veneration. Generally speaking, western civilization does not do submission of the will - except in its unhappily totalitarian spasms. Would it be fair to say that Islam only does veneration in its civilized spasms, such as its best architecture or its Arabic calligraphy?

Patricia Shaw. One waits in vain for your definition of racism; but sees more and more evidence that, by invoking it, you deliberately wish to prevent people criticizing cultural norms of which they disapprove but which you support.

Greg D

‘It's alright talking about Muslims with tidy little data lists, but to be critical would be grossly incorrect and bordering on breaking the law. Even if we take into account their relatively recent intrusion into English life, no protestation to the underhand sneaky little operation that brought them here is tolerated. This is left for the comments section of which most correspondents don't mince their words. It is only when the public speak or are able to speak that we get the true feelings of any particular view out and about. Why shouldn’t the profound religious Muslim topic be different from any other religious topic? It is different, vastly different!’ – Roy Smith

Roy, you make an excellent point. Your comment has inspired me to construct a little experiment that will allow us all to test our prejudices; given that this post is largely concerned with prejudice, it may be helpful to everyone to think a little more about the issue and about their own positions.

I invite you all to peruse, at your leisure, the following links:

www.forward.com/articles/7311/

www.noahide.com/infiltration/xmas.htm

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1101158.html

www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058758.html

Most of us have had the evils of Christianity drilled into our heads since childhood; no less, I will mention of the Church’s role in the Rwandan genocide, the Inquisition, and the persecution of Galileo for the sake of fairness.

Essentially, the links and comments I have posted suggest that Islam is not the only religion capable of brutality and deception. Most organised religions have one form or another of proselytising and almost all have numerous theological injunctions to subjugate or persecute non-believers.

I now await the charge of anti-Semitism. I challenge those who will press it to explain how my suggestions are more bigoted and ignorant than those offered by commentpatriots such as Austin Barry, Verity, Nicholas and Random man a propos Islam.

I would kindly ask Patricia Shaw to initiate the anti-Semitic mudslinging, since she must apply her insults across the board if she is to be taken as a fair and serious contributor. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, my dear.

Sometimes we all need a good whipping - and not just a whipping boy.

Philip, London

The report is tainted by association with its sponsor, who uses his politics to further his greed.

Soros is an avowed globaliser and multiculturalist, so any related project that flows from his organisation should immediately set alarm bells ringing.

Verity

Yarnes from Horsham: “Even so we allow some crazed Imam to spout incitement on our streets week after week. Can you imagine the local CoE vic getting away with that in down town Iran.”

More important, can you imagine the local CoE vicar getting away with it in downtown Birmingham? How many nanoseconds before the local plod, kitted out in combat gear, battered down the door and frog marched the vicar down the aisle and into the van waiting – probably parked in the graveyard, having knocked over a couple of gravestones, such was the urgency - with all its lights flashing?

Patricia Shaw (for it is she!): ”In the meantime it's nice to see all the regular race hate mongers playing together so nicely.”<.i> Sadly, the more wordly among us have failed to teach the rabid Ms Shaw that Islam is not a race. She certainly fell for commie lies hook, line and sinker!

Peter from Maidstone, I didn’t word my post with sufficient care when I discussed one aspect of the iron fist with which Islam controls its adherents and am genuinely sorry for any hurt I occasioned. It is not the contemplative aspects of Islam I was discussing, but the mind control.

Lady Amelia, point taken – although I have never, ever seen anyone praying by a roadside, or on bits of grass or on their office floors, but I will take your word that it happens. Although in Muslim countries there is usually (probably always) a room set aside for praying in.

My point was the hunger for mind control. For keeping Muslims focused on allah. It is an aggressive, controlling belief system.

By the way, general question, if they're so pliable and willing to become part of society in Britain, why don't they learn the language? Perhaps because they believe that English is only here temporarily?

Verity

Derek - I find prostration, whether practiced by islamics or any other Middle Eastern sect, rather florid and in dreadful taste. In fact, bums in the air has a sense of panto about it.

Augustus

The veiling of women, honour killings, polygamy, parallel cultural ghettos, refusing to speak the language, and female sexual mutilation, are all things related to Muslims all over Europe. Other immigrant groups (Chinese, East Europeans, Latin Americans, North Americans, Australians, Koreans, Vietnamese) have hardly any difficulty integrating into their host nations. In Germany today, for example, the Vietnamese second generation show, on average, better school results than ethnic Germans. But the exceptions, in every European country, are those from Islamic countries. And yet, while Islam itself boasts to being the only true and best of all religions, and promotes that sense of superiority to all its followers, Muslims delight in seeing themselves as victims and losers amongst the non-Muslim majority, by whom they were originally accepted for humanitarian or political reasons. But they
never mention their own failings or unwillingness to integrate into Western society.

Verity

Sorry I mistyped the code for turning off the italics in the post above.

John Bowman

In my view the mistake has been to define Muslims exclusively by their religion, rather than their cultural, ethnic or native backgrounds or take into account the different range of beliefs within Islam.

It is like regading Greek orthodox Christians as typical of all Christians, or worse the Klu Klux Klan as representing Christianity.

Muslims originate from a number of regional and cultural backgrounds and do not all think and behave alike.

The error is compounded in the UK by the dozy Governments dealing with "representatives" of the "Muslim Community" who tend to be big mouths with an axe to grind and who come from the largest ethnic group: clearly not representative of the broader spectrum of people who happen to share a common religion.

It would now be a good time to stop defining people by their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

We all belong to one community with elected representatives chosen by all, not self-selected representatives of factions of the community.

Richard Stone

Daniel
Are you being ingenuous? Or suggestive in any way?

Austin Barry

I suspect that Islam's profound hatred of our canine chums results from centuries of unfortunate prayer-time incidents.

Daniel Korski

For people who have had a hard time to download the report, see here: http://www.soros.org/initiatives/home/articles_publications/publications/muslims-europe-20091215

Daniel

dr Michael Salt

Daniel, you're squirming. Your article is almost Beeboid in terms of its apologeticis. Do you really not get it?

Richard Stone

In the light of Dr Salt's comment, perhaps I meant disingenuous. Daniel, this is the Speccie and you are not dealing with the sheeple. Shape up or ship out

TomTom

Is the muslim family in you street, which puts up Christmas lights on their house, practising al-taqiyya?

Could be Alawites and as such loathed by Sunnis

Random Man

Greg D: Dec 15th 1:48pm

"I challenge those who will press it to explain how my suggestions are more bigoted and ignorant than those offered by commentpatriots such as Austin Barry, Verity, Nicholas and Random man a propos Islam."

Greg,

You may wish to re-read my previous post. I presented a factual summary of some of the theological aspects of Islam that have endured for over a thousand years as documented in the Koran and re-enforced by rulings from Islamic Schools of thought. If you find these views "bigoted and ignorant" may I suggest you write to some of these scholars as it is their views you are criticising not mine. I am merely summarising some of the theology as they promote. Like you I find the theological points identified as backward and degrading (I presume you agree?), but do aim your fire at the scholars - its their ideology not mine.

Alternatively if you can identify anything that I have written in my previous post that is factually and theologically incorrect, I'll happily issue a correction.

Regards

Random Man

salieri

Thanks for the link at last.

This report no doubt has worthy aims and intentions, but it is tendentious, superficial and self-justifying hogwash, encapsulated in the statement - see “Executive Summary” [sic] – that “religious discrimination against Muslims remains a critical barrier to full and equal participation in society”. The report does not even touch on the possibility:
a) that full and equal participation in ‘society’ may not always be desired;
b) that segregation may sometimes include deliberate self-segregation; and
c) that one obvious reason for both these possibilities might, just might, be religious discrimination practised not against Muslims but BY Muslims.

Statistical basis and methodology? Pathetic. The report’s findings are said to be based on 200 “non-random” interviews conducted in “select neighbourhoods” in each of 11 European cities (London’s being the Borough of Waltham Forest). Half the respondents were “Muslims” and half “non-Muslims”, with an equal male/female division of each in turn. A “Muslim” is defined as anyone who identifies himself/herself as such, whether in a religious context or a purely cultural one. A non-Muslim means anyone else. So that’s 550 men and 550 women who identify themselves in any sense as Muslims, out of what the report itself estimates to be a population of 15 to 20 million Muslims living in Europe - a figure which will have doubled by 2025. Nice.

The report does say that its findings “are not intended to be taken as a comprehensive reflection of the Muslim population and their concerns in these 11 cities” – as it appears, Mr. K, you have taken them. But it nowhere states how either these select neighbourhoods or the interviewees within them were actually selected. As for the questionnaire itself, if you can struggle as far as Annex 3, it would disgrace a first-year sociology student conducting a spot survey at King’s Cross station.

Your first reaction - not to write about collective groups - would have been wiser.

Greg D

My apologies, Random Man.

Your criticism of the nastier theological aspects of Islam is perfectly reasonable and useful in making it clear that a religion with numerous injunctions to kill and subjugate non-believers is going to have a hard time reconciling its theology with liberal democratic norms. I do not believe that you are either bigoted or ignorant at all. Indeed, I am grateful that you provided evidence for your claims, and in large part I agree with just about everything that you have written and posted – especially with your point that the finer (read ‘uncomfortable’) details of Islamic theology are rarer drawn out into public debate.

I tried the very same approach on a different thread vis-à-vis Orthodox Judaism but was pounced upon by commentpatriots hurling the usual abuse. What I was trying to do with my post was to show the more rabid Islamophobes on this thread that their criticisms of some branches of Islam (and it is a most heterogeneous religion) apply just as equally to some branches of Judaism (and, for that matter, some sects of Christianity). The thing, Mr Man, is that these commentators (whose names I should have not associated with yours) cannot see the hypocrisy inherent to their positions; what is good for the Islamic goose is good for the Jewish/Christian gander, but these saucy chefs don’t have the stomach for this truth. I find it helpful to even the scales from time to time – which is, going by the plea for more honesty implicit in your post, something that you too might agree with.

Once again, my apologies for the clumsiness of my post. I wish you a very nice day.

Greg

salieri

Greg,

I don’t detect irony in your post, so forgive me if any was intended.

There is a perfectly respectable argument to be made that some branches of both Christianity and Judaism resemble some branches of Islam in many ways, in that they deliberately cut themselves off from their wider social context in favour of a rigidly restricted and self-sufficient ‘society’ of their own. Orthodoxy, or perceived orthodoxy, is not a precondition of this kind of self-segregation but you could, for example, go to Stamford Hill in London or certain parts of Manchester, and find a relatively closed world of orthodox Jewry with a different yet common culture, morality and language and indeed a respectable system for resolving disputes between themselves. You would find many men who studied sacred texts instead of earning a living, and many women whose sole function was to stay at home and breed.

You might well find points of view which were similar to, if not identical with, those reported in this study of 1,100 self-styled Muslims.

You might well be justified in accusing such people of religious intolerance; they might even be proud of it.

Let’s go one stage further and accept your earlier observation that religious extremists of many different kinds have historically been “capable of brutality and deception”.

And after that comes the point where we part company. Because, you see, I cannot think of a single branch or sect of either Christian or Jewish faith today which believes in murdering people who disagree with them, or enabling others to do so, or condoning – openly or tacitly - others who do either. I know of none who are even encouraged, in your carefully chosen words, “to subjugate or persecute non-believers”.

There is no hypocrisy in pointing out this rather basic distinction, or the implications for us all of its very existence.

JohnAnt

The only conclusion to come to, reading this disingenuous and tendentionous 'report', is that Soros (né Schwartz) must really hate Britain and Europe with passion. I suppose his early experiences in anti-semitic wartime Hungary must have been difficult, and working as a waiter and railway porter in post-war London may have further jaundiced his views.
One always has to ask oneself with Soros, is he buying, or selling?
So all this 'Open' whatever stuff is just about Soros seeking expanded markets. And a bit of revenge served cold, of course.

Verity

Lady Amelia - I responded to your post around 16 hours ago and it never went up. It is now my habit, as a rule, to keep a copy given the mysterious posting system around here, but in this instance I didn't. So here, in a nutshell, not so detailed, is my response:

I accept your word, but I have never, never, never seen anyone praying on a pavement or a piece of grass or anywhere else public in a Muslim country. I accept that you must have done or you wouldn't have written it, but I have not.

Nor have I ever seen anyone praying in an office, although I agree that in some Muslim countries, or perhaps all Muslim countries, companies do provide a quiet room for praying in.

You write: "Facts before opinions please."

Those are the facts based on my own experience. Whether you like it or not.

Greg D

Hello, Salieri.

You were right to read no irony into my words. And thank-you for a measured response – it’s quite refreshing. But -

(And after that comes the point where we part company. Because, you see, I cannot think of a single branch or sect of either Christian or Jewish faith today which believes in murdering people who disagree with them, or enabling others to do so, or condoning – openly or tacitly - others who do either. I know of none who are even encouraged, in your carefully chosen words, “to subjugate or persecute non-believers”.
There is no hypocrisy in pointing out this rather basic distinction, or the implications for us all of its very existence.)

I believe that we can continue walking and talking down the very same path. I invite you to read the links I posted previously once again, as well as this one: www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126890.html . I recommend that you pay close attention to the final sentence of this last link and, if you have the time, to briefly research the histories of the men spoken about therein.

John Richardson

Greg D. and Salieri.

What an interesting exchange.

I am especially grateful to Salieri (16th Dec. 3:30pm) as his posting entirely saved me the trouble of making the exact same points.
Further, as a committed Christian (old fashioned right of right R.Catholic) I have similarly found myself repulsed by the enthusiastic simple hatred of Muslims often expressed here on 'The Spectator' blogs.
Or down the pub.
However, on the whole, I would still say Salieri has the balance of the exchange. Having read Greg D.'s 4:33pm link, it is revealing that, in that last sentence you mention, the Rabbi actually uses the word 'murder'. This must be the crucial admission you suggest.
Perhaps this Rabbi and his merry band of followers demonstrate that any Religion can be twisted.
The problem is that Islam is not being twisted at all.

salieri

Yes, the links are illuminating and amply display narrow-mindedness and inhumanity. Two very pertinent distinctions remain nonetheless.

For one thing, even this extremist hate-ridden rabbi (assuming his outburst to be accurately reported) seeks to justify murder only as a last resort in the face of mortal threat, rather than a default attitude to non-believers; and for another, the vast majority of comments from his co-religionists on the Ha’aretz blog – I lost count of them - respond to it in terms of revulsion, shame and anger in equal measure.

Now, Greg, in your laudable quest for even-handed source material, where can we find the Muslim blogs expressing outrage at the bombers and bigots, and those who seek to justify murdering the infidel?

michael

I used to think that anyone who did not like their local muslim community was exhibiting a fair degree of bigotry and racial intolerance.

Now I think that former tolerance has become replaced by disenchantment annoyance and a not unreasonable degree of anger.

Herbert Thornton

The headline to this blog - "What Do Muslims Think?" - itself displays a western lack of understanding of the nature of Islam.

The sad fact is that Islam trains its followers not to think or at least not to think except in very narrow ways, and to base all their actions on what is presented to them as the will of their deity.

This is so strongly indoctrinated into them that as well as regarding the killing of infidels and Jews as virtue, many of them are also ready to kill Muslims of a different sect from their own - and even members of their own families - for supposed sins of one sort and another. Some even kill themselves in the belief that they will be rewarded in heaven - as the frequency of suicide bombings demonstrates.

To ask what Muslims think is quite pointless. We should instead be asking ourselves - what in heaven's name are so many of us thinking to tolerate and even encourage the presence of Islam in our midst?

Sceptic

I am amazed at the torrent of ignorance and bigotry in this blog which bodes very badly for the future.
There certainly is a serious problem for the West in radical Islam but many, perhaps most, Muslims are not radicals and want to live in peace with the West. A good many are to a greater or lesser degree secularised, just as most western Christians are.

The survey may or may not be eyewash..not enough information to tell..but there are so many factual errors (perhaps based on firsthand observation without background knowledge) that one despairs.
Takiye is, as already pointed out, a Shi'a word and never a Sunni practice and nothing to do with the Jihad. (That does not mean that Muslim radicals, like all revolutionaries, do not disguise their intentions. Within hearing of the enemy of course they do but it is not an injunction of their faith.)
Muslims should perform namaz five times a day but they don't have to go to the mosque to do it.
If they do go to a mosque, one hopes they will not take off their earrings -- because body-piercing and similar customs are against Islamic law as is wearing jewelry and ornaments.

Greg D

John Richardson – I appreciate your comments, and I too think that Salieri makes some strong arguments. Your point about the term ‘murder’ is also a very valid one. However, your statement that:

‘Perhaps this Rabbi and his merry band of followers demonstrate that any Religion can be twisted.
The problem is that Islam is not being twisted at all’

is problematic, in that it is slightly contradictory. If an Orthodox reading of, say, the question of the Amalekites prevails, is this a distortion of Judaism? Or should we rather call Jehovah a genocidal maniac? If not, what makes you say that the violent notion of ‘jihad’ (which has several different meanings in Islamic theology) is not a distortion of the ‘true’ message of Islam (and as for ‘submission’, every true monotheist submits himself to the will of God)? I am not saying that violence and violent language is absent from Islamic theology (this is undeniable) but I do think that the exceptionalism you display towards certain aspects of Judaism is unfounded and unfair. With all due respect, sir, the distinctions you make between true and false Judaism/Islam seem arbitrary and a little prejudiced. However, they do not seem as venomously ignorant as those made by Herbert Thornton (see below).

‘Now, Greg, in your laudable quest for even-handed source material, where can we find the Muslim blogs expressing outrage at the bombers and bigots, and those who seek to justify murdering the infidel’?

Well made points, Salieri, but I’m not sure the sardonic tone is necessary. I do not deny that many Muslims are backward-thinking bigots with chips on their shoulders stemming from the days of colonialism and, perhaps, even further back in history. No less, I refer you to www.freemuslims.org/issues/terrorism.php and www.theamericanmuslim.org as a start. REMEMBER NOW: I know that many Muslims are violent, barbaric SOBs – but I think you’re kidding yourself, and others, if you state that the theological roots of such nastiness are unique to Islam. Once again, I implore you to research the backgrounds of those Rabbis who applauded Shapiro’s book and their positions within Israel and the Orthodox settler movement as a whole. I would also highly recommend Israel Shahak’s book ‘Jewish History, Jewish Religion.’

‘The headline to this blog - "What Do Muslims Think?" - itself displays a western lack of understanding of the nature of Islam.’

Your post, Herbert, displays the same ignorance of which you accuse this blog’s author (or more specifically, a vaguely defined ‘west’). Does every branch of Islam train its followers to think in narrow ways and to kill themselves in the name of God? If so, can you please tell me how the love poetry of Rumi or Hafiz, and indeed the playful mysticism of the Sufis as a whole, can be reconciled with your rather narrow idea of ‘Islam’? And is Islam an actor? Can ‘it’ train ‘its’ followers? Or do specific human imams train their followers to think in specific ways? Should we follow your lead and take Yaakov Teitel as a fine representative of the entire Jewish faith?

This, folks, is the very prejudice of which I talked in my first post.

Greg D

Two short additions:

‘However, they do not seem as venomously ignorant as those made by Herbert Thornton (see below).’ – I retract this statement: there is no venom whatsoever in your post, John. My apologies sir. On the issue of ‘ignorance’ I still reserve my judgement; I beg you to give reason for me to conclude favourably.

Salieri – Your first point, on second reading, is weak. How can infants (whom the Rabbi and his prominent followers deem legitimate targets of lethal force) be classified as mortal threats?

Will H.

Verity - Muslims can pray anywhere they feel like. Do you really think they go to mosque five times a day? It would be a logistical nightmare! What do you think prayer rooms at airports and offices are for?

A lot of prayer simply takes place at home. Prayer times can be in the early hours of the morning, after all.

Herbert Thornton

I see that my posting has raised the level of hysteria so high that there are abusive accusations of "venomous ignorance" and "bigotry".

The attempts to refute what I wrote also included this very misleading assertion -

"....many, perhaps most, Muslims are not radicals and want to live in peace with the West. A good many are to a greater or lesser degree secularised..."

Of course a good many Muslims may not be radicals and may want to live in peace, but that is not the point. They still, as a community, are extremely reluctant to criticise extremism - or are terrified of doing so. The proof of this stares us in the face - because if there were real Muslim opposition to extremism, we would hear of it. Sadly such opposition is pitifully weak to the point of being virtually non-existent. Furthermore - indeed to some extent in consequence - the Muslim community constitutes a source from which extremism easily recruits new extremists. The fact that parents may be moderate obviously does not to prevent their offspring easily converted to extremism. It happens. So long as people have any ties to Islam, their offspring, even if not they themselves, are susceptible to conversion to extremism.

As for the assertion that a good many are "to a greater or lesser degree secularised" - that makes no more sense than does the idea of being "to a greater or lesser degree pregnant". Indeed a Muslim who becomes secularised is no longer a Muslim. And when the penalty for that can be - and often is - death, it is not surprising that secularism in Muslim communities is extremely rare.

The question was put to me -

"Does every branch of Islam train its followers to think in narrow ways and to kill themselves in the name of God?"

Of course not and if the accuser had read what I wrote more carefully he would have seen that I have not asserted that. The Ismaili branch of Islam for example is one that has largely distanced itself from that sort of thing. But in the main Islamic sects, narrow thinking - i.e. testing every idea in the context of Islam - remains strong, confining and opposed to the free exercise of enlightened thinking.

Herbert Thornton

There was an excellent article in the Dec.15th New York Times by Thomas L. Friedman touching on this topic. Had I seen it before I wrote my previous posting I would have drawn attention to it. You can find it by Googling "New York Times jihadism on line".

Amri Baabood

Exactly, so why focus on muslims? Are they not people like yourselves?