The pessimism of the left

Tom Jaffray

Give us a break Fraser. The woman has the insight and analytical ability of a fencepost.

Dave B

Giles Conran wrote a super review of Mz Toynbee's 'Unjust Rewards':

"...unique blend of snobbery, bitterness, jealousy and thwarted ambition, cobbled together with the tawdry and risible clichés"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/giles_coren/article4488462.ece

AndyinBrum

welcome back Frazer.

Look, he's right about Polly's writting and also why she's talking bollocks. Some people appear to just want to moan for the sake of moaning and picking fault for no other reason than to make them feel morally superior.

Thats what the Daily Mail Online's for isnt it?

Judy

The quality of Polly's judgement, as well as her Lady Bountiful condescension was demonstrated by her falling for one of those Nigerian fraud scams-- they certainly knew how to press her buttons....Only the vigilance of those evil bankers prevented her from being taken for a great deal more than she was.

Edward Sutherland

Is this the same Polly Toynbee,a frequent flyer to her villa in Tuscany? See her getting her comeuppance from Richard Littlejohn on Question Time in May last year- it's on YouTube and is delicious.

Nicj Leaton

Quite.

Just how Poly expects to pay for this largess and debts is beyond her. Perhaps she has never had to pay a credit card bill in her life.

When she realises the British Standard Peasant on minumum wage is taxed 2K a year to pay for all this largess and pork my MPs and Lords, she might change her tune.

DZ

Question: why have I stopped buying the Spectator?
Answer: I don't like the friends it keeps.

Simon

Every so often you do redeem yourself with sensible and thoughtful posts. It is the season of goodwill after all.

Tankus

I like the way , in her razor sharp insightful opinions, Gordon went from the grand messiah and the second coming, to the the political equivalent of a Norwegian blue. (eee's shuffled his mortal coil )all within a 12 month, and without the slightest embarrassment or apology.

muppet

General Zod

Are some of you really thick enough to think Fraser was praising her?

(that would explain a lot)

David Lindsay

Toynbee has the four fatal flaws of the SDP, to which she adhered: the betrayal of Gaitskellism over Europe; the betrayal of Christian Socialism, of Gaitskellism (although that is almost completely forgotton now), and indeed of much of High Toryism over nuclear weapons; the decadent social libertinism of Roy Jenkins; and the comprehensive schools mania of Shirley Williams.

She is thus powerless to resist the social, cultural and constitutional Marxist overthrow of Old Labour, which really did deliver the Welfare State, workers' rights, consumer protection, strong communities, conservation (not environmentalism), fair taxation, full employment, proper local government, a powerful Parliament, and, albeit up to an insufficient point, a base of real property from which every household could resist both over-mighty commercial interests and an over-mighty State, all the while seeing nothing wrong in strong support for the monarchy, the organic Constitution, national sovereignty, the Union, the Commonwealth, the countryside, grammar schools, traditional moral and social values, controlled importation and immigration, and a realistic foreign policy.

She is thus ultimately lined up with the Conservative Party's Whigs: capitalist, libertarian, broadly or strongly secular, globalist, committed to making the world anew even at the barrel of a gun, uncritically supportive of America when defined in those terms, scornful of the Commonwealth, ferociously Zionist in the original sense of secular Ashkenazi nationalist, and osetensibly scornful of State action.

Rather than with the Conservative Party's Tories: agrarian, socially conservative, staunchly Christian, patriotic, highly cautious about intervention abroad, at least sceptical about American influence, pro-Commonwealth, Arabist if anything in relation to the Middle East, and unashamedly supportive of exactly as much State action as these principles require.

In the coming realignment, she will be, and she increasingly is, on the side of the bitterest enemies of almost everything in which she professes to believe.

Little Fluff

Polly is the Battered Wife of New Labour; however bad it gets she just can't let go. She, like millions of other 'old' labourites have never got over the great Blair Betrayal.

And yes her view of human nature is simply wrong; the cynicism of marxism infuses everything her side do. Although I wouldn't say the right is overtly optimistic about human nature it does, at least, acknowledge the realities.

Fergus Pickering

Two things. First to Polly Toynbee, though what's the good of talking to the silly old bag I don't know. 'Knowing that human destiny is in our own hands'... How do you know? You get this feeling, do you. I don't for one minute think that human destiny is in our own hands. One day I die. Quite soon. One day this planet falls into the sun. A long time until that, I hope. Human destiny! Twaddle dearie. Trust in God and take short views. You atheists areall the bloody same.

Oh, and one for you. Human beings are basically nice. No we are not. Have you heard of the Fall of Man? Try the opening of Paradise Lost. 'Of Man's First Disobedience...' You follow that sentence all the way down. Not a nice man, John Milton, but a longer-headed one than you or me. If you want to know what a conservative is then read your Oakeshott. If you are not like that, Fraser, then you belong with titty Toynbee and you are (Gawd help you) a Social democrat. But you seem much too nice a man to be like that. You are a Scot, aren't you? Where's you Calvinism, man. A scot without Calvin or without whsky... Well, here's to you and a Happy New Year. I will not mention Christmas, since we Scots know thatone day is no more holy than another.

Amadeus Plonquer

Mr Nelson you are BUSTED!

We can all see through this pandering to the moron class as an exercise in spin. This article is all about pandering and setting the groundwork for your forthcoming admission that you are deliberately destroying our planet by using disposable nappies.

Geoff Miller

If we actually ditched the Toynbees of this world and adopted democracy Britain would be a more tolerable place.

No overcrowding, no mass immigration, no Islamism, lower crime and sensible punishment, nuclear families rather than topping the league in teenage single motherhood, manufacturing, care for the elderly, far less benefit dependency and so on.

As long as the Toynbees of this world have more influence than their one vote they will seek to break everything whilst looking down with contempt upon the masses whose lives they ruin from a safe place - insulated by their money and privilege..

Moraymint

Hear! Hear!

Excellent piece. Can you get this made into a poster and put up looking down over, say, Piccadilly Circus?

ajs

Great article, beautiful hidden sarcasm. (I hope). And hats off to the coiner of "Battered Wife of Socialism".

Yow Min Lye

"Many think the science is still in dispute. Why wouldn't they when the maverick billionaires who control most of our press keep pumping out climate change denial day after day?” says Polly.

I would hazard a guess that most of the ordinary people she slates pick up their news from the BBC. And we all know what a incorrigable bastion of climate change denial Auntie Beeb is, don't we.

Robert Upfold

I understand your POV Fraser. It is well known that a new baby has a strong tendency to mellow judgements.

In this case you've confused the Elmira Gulch, a.k.a the Wicked Witch of the West, with Glinda, the Good Witch of the North.

Nevertheless, a very merry Christmas to you!

Pie

I'm more of a fan of Toynbee's worst enemy, Auberon Waugh. His Spectator columns were brilliant. Can't you put them online?

Beer Moth

In the same way that Cameron and his party exasperate, by their inability to puncture the putrefied and inflated body of this dead government, to be fitted into its coffin; this piece totally fails to pierce Toynbee's aged and decrepit outlook.

The more I read over it, it becomes clear that you both are of the one mind. Underneath the polemic ceremony, neither of you are genuinely interested in the 'ordinary' person. You are inhabitants of the same stratum and your tussles are no more than aggressive attempts to conceal the basic understanding which roots your lives.

She tells her stories about her 'ordinary' people, and you tell yours, each evading what the ordinary British person is and wants; and while all that goes on, we truly ordinary people - the ones who built the country and who work to pay to run it - are being swamped out of existence with the blessings of you both.

Neither of you represents us.

Mitch

It must be terrible to be Polly and realise that virtually everything you believe and hold dear is wrong.The thought that you have wasted your entire life on nonsense must be too much to bear hence her flight from reality to Tuscany.

Dorothy Wilson

Polly's face in the picture at the top of this article is enough to turn milk sour! Her thinking ditto.

FrankFisher

Polly's a self declared fascist - although of course she would deny the label. She's sick of the little people and their persistent refusal to vote the correct way; look at what she's calling for in her latest column: a consensus across mainstream politics so the punters *can't* vote against her beliefs. Dozy mare. I dont' think she has noticed that there is one national party whose leader has already come out against the CO2 madness...

Oh but Frazer, you're wrong too. On people I mean. What does everyone you have ever met have in common? They're all different.

Simplistic views from left or right that say "all people are...." are tosh. Ditto this absurd claim that everyone around the world wants the same things - they very clearly do not.

I modern politics would be pragmatic, loose, enabling and not imposing; a functional politics that aimed to provide infrastructure, basic and firm policing of directly harmful crimes, and nothing else, and support for contract etc. Conservatism isn't quite as devoid of value as the childish fantasies of the Left, but compared to a firm bright libertarianism it's obviously lacking in both direction and potency.

Publius

@ Fergus Pickering and Beer Moth.
-- Agreed.
-- Do get a grip, Mr Nelson.

EC

"we truly ordinary people - the ones who built the country and who work to pay to run it - are being swamped out of existence with the blessings of you both."

Well said Beer Moth.

As belligerent tax gatherers say the world over, "Do your work, pay your taxes and keep your mouth shut!"

That's about as much input from the hoi polloi that is wanted.

John Bowman

“Many think the science is still in dispute. Why wouldn't they when the maverick billionaires who control most of our press keep pumping out climate change denial day after day?”

And which papers would these be? Perhaps the BBC too.

Marcher Baron

I'm not sure I believe that man is inherently good, but I certainly think he needs to be given the chance to show he has the power to redeem himself without being controlled by some power-crazed control freak in Westminster. No wonder Neather admitted that Labour was out to change the character of the British people to short change the Right's belief in man's natural goodness by importing every T,D&H from the world's worst regions along with the hard-working. That, coupled with incentives for promiscuous and feckless behaviour will eventually breed the necessary voter base for Labour's beliefs. Time for a change!

Tim Carpenter LPUK

Toynbee may be many things but she is no Libertarian.

Fragmeister

Polly stood for the SDP in one of the Lewisham constituencies in 1983 and was trashed by Colin Moynihan. She seems stuck in 1983. One thing that 1989 nd the fall of the Wall proved was that the left, social democrats of all kinds, haven't got a clue what human nature is.

TGF UKIP

Come, come chaps, can't you see this for what it is - a trail for a special award to the old witch at next years Speccie Luvvie Fest. Harperson this year, Polly next. Nice one Fraser, I always appreciate a fellow wind-up merchant.

But meanwhile, what an interesting phrase of Never Neather's that is in his final para "I'd place Tory paternalists in the side of the bad guys."

Now let's see who fits the bill of a "Tory Paternalist" down to a T. Perhaps someone who very recently described himself to Peter Oborne as "a relatively liberal One Nation Tory" and who sought "a more equal, fairer, greener society."

Yes, I think we can add this to the list of signals of Never Neather's growing impatience and disenchantment with the Speccie's former pin-up boy.

Welcome to the Verity Club, Fraser.

HayekwozRight

Polly intelligent? She barely scraped 3 O'Levels from a top public school.....

cmp

Excellent stuff Fraser, though evidently too nuanced for some

Chuck Unsworth

Battered wife?

Toynbee is not.

She's totally breadcrumbed.

John Richardson

Personally I agree with Beer Moth.
Mr Nelson, your judgment and discernment regarding Polly Toynbee is appalling.
I remain to be convinced that she is intelligent.
I understand she holds her 'position' as her father was a success.Not because of her own efforts.The left media machine also probably thought it was 'progressive' to employ a famous historian's daughter.
Her writing is predictable and always boring.She is a Mathew Paris of the left.
She has never had an idea in her life.This is why I haven't read her for years but groaned whenever she turned up on the television (all the blinking time but now I don't watch TV so that's OK.......).
Regarding her as somehow important demonstrates your alienation from real life I'm afraid. Rather like the conviction that Peter Mandelson is important,you chose to write about him in the 'NOTW'.
Then again,you also think there is global warming and that humans are causing it.
At least you are consistent.

This article, and what it betrays as pointed out by others on this blog, is why people hate politics.
Usually they are right to.

Dorothy Wilson

Polly's problem is that she has never grown up. To borrow from Churchill: anyone who doesn't think like Polly at a young age [shall we say around 10?] doesn't have a heart. Anyone who still thinks like it when they should have become mature doesn't have a brain.

Sam ARMSTRONG

There's a piece in Quentin Letts' new book describing her perched upon a stool looking pious in a Grauniad editorial meeting. He describes her and her ilk as possessing at once an almost Christian-like concern for the welfare of humanity along with a shrewd Tuscan-property magnate type quality. Qualities that are at odds with each other and I would think that it is quite difficult being Polly Toynbee, quite hard work indeed.

Pricky Gayes

I believe human nature is nasty, brutish and in need of restraint, which is why I describe myself as a conservative, and why I describe Fraser Nelson as a foolish libertarian whose view of human nature is fundamentally no different from that of the liberal left.

Steven Clarke

You seem to be confusing Conservatism with Liberalism.

Tim Carpenter LPUK

The pessimism is not of the Left, but of Authoritarians who aim to control, nudge, forcibly collectivise or, recently, communitise us. And yes, this includes the Lib(soc)Dems as well as Labour, BNP, Tories and now,possibly, UKIP since Nigel Farage has stepped down.

The fight is not Left-Right but Authoritarian-Libertarian. Is the State your master? Do you think it "knows best" and so you want others to be forced to accept the yoke you crave, or is the State your servant, the administrator? The Right has plenty of Authoritarians, but, while focusing on other areas of our lives, they still think they know best and are determined to impose it.

Ps I used to think Polly an imbecile but I realise that she is not, because she is certainly a disingenuous and hypocritical Champagne Socialist. Imbecility would be an excuse.

BenM

Fascinating.

But I agree with Polly. Leaving money "in the hands of the people" is a euphemism for: "leaving money in the hands of the rich".

Tax and government is an exercise in accountability of the rich elites which blinkered libertarians like Mr Nelson here would allow to ride roughshod and without check over the rest of the population.

That is the politics of rank selfishness we've madly followed these last 30 years which has got so much of the anglo-saxon world into the mire it is currently drowning in.

I don't expect Mr Nelson to ever see the error in his narrow, wrongheaded worldview. But he shouldn't try to critique the Ms Toynbees of this world who, unlike he, have the gumption and the guts to stand up to the rich and powerful instead of fawning to them.

Cuffleyburgers

Stop being so pseudo journo - the woman is a typical ghastly hpocritical champagne socialist in the worst sense of the word - people like her have done untold damage over the years.

She has every right to her opinion but it worth rather less than my dog's.

gareth

Socialism is very optimistic, just look at the French Revolution, Russian Revolution, National Socialism, Chairman Mao or any progressive socialist movement including New Labour.

Churchill was a pessimist and Abraham Lincoln, and it has to be said as regards the power of the state to do good, so were Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.

They all arrived at their own made ends.

David Ossitt

Tom Jaffray
“Give us a break Fraser. The woman has the insight and analytical ability of a fencepost”

Tom your comment maligns the fencepost.

Ian C

Oh! rich irony, Fraser,

"this, of course, is the mark of a good columnist"

which, displays the fatuity of column writing if this is the sort of drivel one can "admire". It merely confirms what we in the real world have known for a longtime - that column-writer's only have a 'job' in order to sell copy. Fatuity sells more copy than quality, so columnists become more fatuous in order to get printed to get paid more. That is how Polly Toynbee's existence,especially, is justified. Along with many more from all sides of the political divide. Even here on Coffee-House where at least 50% of what is posted (probably more like 75%, but that's still much better than most publications and blogs of this tyoe) is of the fatuous variety.

Column writing is only of any actual no-economic value when the reader learns something that they have not discovered for themselves already eg new facts and the aspects of an argument they have not consdered and/or evidence to suppport same.

All else is dust. Polly Toynbee especially.

Mr Ocelot

She has a beautiful chin. Why she wastes her breath berating capitalists is a mystery - when she has so much going for her, and so many successes to notch up. I loved her performance in From Russia With Love - those shoes with spikes suited her better than writing propaganda..

Noa Zrk

Fraser. The link introduction to your whimsical piece contains an inadvertent ungallantry, which nevertheless made me laugh,omitting, as it does "degrees" to leave it reading "she is 180..." Juvenile I know and I can only hope the evident toothache her photo shows her to be enduring has been resolved.