CoffeeHousers' Wall 21 December - 27 December

Verity

I think there would be a better flow if The Wall ran for a month at a time instead of a week. It's discouraging to try to follow ongoing developments when the thread gets chopped off in one week.

I realise that it's weekly because The Speccie's a weekly ...

David Ossitt

There is a pestilence in this land that is spreading its malign poison at an alarming rate; we see the effects of this latter day plague everywhere, it is an evil, vicious, threat to all that is good, and all that is proper, it is called 'equality and diversity'.

The high priests; more often priestesses of this new religion will brook no dissent, we must all believe, all non-believers will be outcasts.

Unusual for any religion; its adherents at the same time follow and worship a number of other gods, global warming being one of these, the full list is long, but they all have the one thing in common, that is; those who believe want to control and punish all of those who do not believe.

Disagreement is not allowed; argument and debate is not permitted.

Now that they have banned freedom of speech; freedom of thought is the next thing on their agenda.

JR

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/gove-league-tables-will-be--here-to-stay--if-you-elect-us-1846351.html

I'd point fellow readers to this article which neatly sums up one of the Conservatives problems. They are in favour of less beaucracy but have a need to monitor more to provide for accountability and proper markets in school/welfare/etc provision.

R King

Is Ed Milliband closely related to Wallace of Wallace and Grommet fame?

There's a distinct similarity in the mouth movements when they are talking!

Jon Rosenberg

Do we live in what is now largely a fantasy world? We have a government who when they aren't telling outright lies will obfuscate the issue, public sector unions who tell their members that they will fight and strike for above inflation pay rises when the phrase "compulsory redundancy" is likely to become synonymous with that sector over the next three years. We have world leaders squabbling and apportioning blame for the ruination of the globe at a summit, when the science behind these dire warnings is under increasing challenge and the scientists who are telling us we are doomed wont provide their data or methodology for others to verify their findings.
We have had banks who have invested in sure things that turned out to be no hopers, a general public who have piled up personal debt with, it often appears, no thought of how to repay. We have "reality" tv shows which depict anything but reality. We have members of parliament who have made decades worth of outrageous claims on the public purse and now seem dumbfound at the public anger and shock at their venality.
All of the above, and many other issues, strike me as part of a mass fantasy. As if the Britain now struggles to tell the difference between the two.
Mid-afternoon rant over, back to work now.

Wilhelm

I wasnt paying much attention to the Climate Conference where 900 countries turned up in Copenhagen, its a dog and pony show as the Americans say.

But my ears picked up when Africa pulled a fast one and wanted $65 Billion for green projects, can you believe it ? what a bunch of chancers, they must think we are all zipped up at the back.

Gordon Broon, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, squeeled that he was going to give £2 Billion to Africa, he's very charitable with other peoples money, isnt he ? taxpayers money.

This worthless no mark is giving £1 million to the flood victims in Cumbria, who'll be out of their homes for a year until they dry out. According to liebour, charity doesnt begin at home.

Thanks for nothing.

Sir Graphus

Heady stuff, David O and Jon R.

My cat was run over last week.

Robert Upfold

Why wantonly waste words on Brown, Copenhagen, the Eurostar cockup, or whatever when the UFO pyramid over Moscow demands intense speculation.

The apparition of this polyhedron in the sky should not be treated as a silly season story, for it is clear that Russia has been specially favoured, or disfavoured.

Where is it from? Who is on board? What is its mission? Somebody out there must have answers to these questions - perhaps even the crew itself.

Enlightened beings should make contact with the Spectator coffeehouse and tell the world.

Can we hope that we are about to be rescued by a superior civilization which will allow us to spend unlimited time on the universe-wide web while providing unimpeded travel without airports, security or travel documents?

That's surely not too much to ask for Christmas, is it?

Slim Jim

David @ 3:20pm - Hear, hear! What you describe has been obvious for years now, and I have witnessed it close up, and it's not pretty! Do you remember all the creeps you went to school with? The clever ones, but dull and boring, with few friends? Well, they're running the country now. If the Tories win the next election, do you think they'll suddenly disappear? No, but we would like to know what plans they do have to rid us of this disease. Exile to North Korea?

Rhoda Klapp

Jon Rosenberg, I was about to post on this very phenomenon myself. So much disconnection from reality, so much cognitive dissonance.

My suggestion for phrase of the year, in so many contexts (not least Speccy journos) is therefore:

They just don't get it.

Any other suggestions?

Beer Moth

Well said Mr Rosenberg. Another aspect of said mass fantasy, is the repeated idea put forward here and elsewhere, that either of the two major parties have any interest whatever, in the 'ordinary' people of this nation.

The real interest appears to be in replacing them with 'new and energetic' foreigners.

Ctesibius

On 19th October, 2009, the BBC website reported that: “the UK faces a “catastrophe” of floods, droughts and killer heatwaves if world leaders fail to agree a deal on climate change, the prime minister has warned. Gordon Brown said negotiators had 50 days to save the world from global warming and break the “impasse”.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8313672.stm

Now, I understand that World leaders DID fail to agree a deal on climate change. Can the Spectator please ask the Prime Minister to confirm that he stands by this prediction? Can you ask him to tell us when this remarkable sequence of ‘floods, droughts and killer heatwaves’ will start, and in what order we can expect them?

Verity

For those who haven't seen it, Daniel Hannan provides 10 sound reasons for buggering off out of the EU in The Telegraph:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100020456/ten-reasons-to-leave-the-eu/

Noa Zrk

Given that Christmas is nearly upon us a little festive cheer is surely in order. If only to dispell the gloom caused by Mr Brown's continued and increasingly deranged political existance.
My came today in the Times with the Article by Ricard Ford advising that our legal system allows private individuals to seek warrants for the arrest of people they wish to prosecute for serious offences, including alleged war crimes.

Under the system, the Government and the Crown Prosecution Service are unable to impose checks on, or even have prior knowledge of, applications to the courts for the arrest of individuals suspected of war crimes. The latter are subject to the principle of universal jurisdiction, where the seriousness of the alleged offence means that they can be tried anywhere.

The Magistrates’ Courts Act (1980) allows anyone in England and Wales to apply to a court for a warrant to arrest someone against whom they wish to bring a private prosecution for a serious crime.
Further reading at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6963551.ece

Now think of the opportunities this provides for Christmas presents for friends and colleagues. Never mind trying to haul Isreali ministers over the coals, we can heave Gobbling Gordon up before the beak! 'Slimy Jack' the Minister of Justice himself can surely feel the cuffs tightening!. But best of all I hear you cry, Teflon Tony will now at last get his cumupence for listening to the voices rather than determining to go to war regardless of the evidence.
I'm sure there are other candidates for the Chokey and a set of orange overalls to wear whilst eating the turkey but these three offer an excellent seasonal start for me. Nominations anyone? and of course a merry Christmas to all.

daniel maris

Jon Rosenberg -

Fantasy?

What about people wrapped up in the fantasy of imperialism in the 19th century?

Or the fantasy of nationalism in the 20th century?

Or in the various fantasies of religion that still cast a shadow over us now - they can't all be right can they?

Give me reality TV over imperialism, nationalism and religious supremacism any day...

Seafog

The Coffee House National Debt Counter is flashing away like a rather forlorn and monochrome Christmas Tree - can we have a big article on the national debt when it reaches £30,000 per household - this will probably be sometime between now and New Year's Eve.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Finally back in the Land of the Mousepad. Heartily agree with Verity that the Wall should remain for a month. Just when things are hotting up, dissent and agreement taking place on an interesting topic, then zoom off it goes! This global warming seems quite destructive, I see Gordon's clumsy fist at work. Happy Christmas to you all and take care on the roads.

R King

Will we ever return to the days when politicians, particularly leaders, put the country before their own vanity, self preservation and lies.
Blair is one of the most sickening examples. He still goes around trying to convince whoever will listen (Fern Britten more recently) that he honestly believes that he did the right thing over Iraq when probably the majority of the country disbelieve him. He is totally delusional and he alone knows more than anyone that his beliefs are based a a total fabrication but continues to spout his lies because he will not admit that he got it wrong.

Brown I think is a greater sinner. Complicit in Blairs lies over Iraq and both are guilty of creating a scenario for the mess we are in with Afghanistan. In addition Brown now is acting in a totally reckless manner with the economy and he surely must know that his handling of the economy has put us in this financial meltdown.
And yet for the sake of self delusion and self preservation he continues on this destructive path.
However the aspect which concerns me most is that these two are prepared to place the lives of our troops at risk rather than admit that they got it all wrong. Their self preservation is more important to them than peopoles lives
I just hope that soon, very soon, that these wrongs are put to an end.

Merry Christmas everyone.

mac

You can't kid us Mr Maris. Anti-imperialist? nah, not with your name? "D Star", no less.

And what's your remedy - other than reality TV, of course - to rid ourselves of all the 19th and 20th century imperialism, nationalism, and religious supremacism which you abhor; another 12 years of the progressive Galactic Socialistic imperium - Imperator Balls, perhaps?

mac

Apologies, Mr Maris - don't know my Sea from my Stars; I blame last night's Winterval wassailing . . .

Smog

They do get it.

But they don't care, because they are corrupt, indifferent and frightened - paradoxical, but true nevertheless.

Michael Booth

Well now, seems the government plan to reduce the university grant by over £530 million this year 'because many universities have been taking in too many students' - excuse me, but I thought this was New Labour policy?

Also, seems like the army are stocking up with anti-riot gear ready for a summer of rioting.............

Malfleur

Is anyone monitoring what's being preached in mosques in England? It was suggesed some time back that Spectator writers should tour our midland and northern cities and file a series of articles on their findings. No response was forthcoming though; too warm and cosy in the south of the country to venture into the northern wilds one suspects. Are any of them qualified or able to penetrate the mosques and let us know what is being preached there? There would of course not be a problem if we were talking about a sermon in a Christian church.... Is this not subject matter suitable for articles in the Spectator? Should it be Neathered?

Verity

Daniel Maris writes: "Or in the various fantasies of religion that still cast a shadow over us now?"

I wonder why so many atheists are so vicious regarding the spiritual beliefs of others (which are, after all, none of their business). They always sound so bereft ... so spiteful. It's weird. Why do they care so much?

daifromwales

My thought for today - we understand that Gordon Brown's attack on the Tories will be based on the allegation that the Tory front bench are a bunch of "toffs". Will not such a socially discriminatory campaign be illegal under the Communists' own "Equality Act" (sic).
It would make an interesting test case - perhaps in the European Court of Human Rights?

Last week there was some mention of the Bill of Rights - and that New Labour has abolished it without all that boring business of debating it in Parliament. It's interesting to see that the "Equalities Act" specifically abolishes certain provisions of the Bill of Rights - does that not imply that the other provisions of the Bill survive?

I sometimes wish the Yanks would come and liberate us from dictatorship - instead of "liberating" unsympathetic Moslem nations.

Jon Rosenberg

Daniel Maris,
We're hardly free of the fantasy of nationalism, indeed this is a period when I would say that it has made a particularly strong resurgence. Consider the rise to prominence of national parties not only in Scotland and Wales but in England too. Consider Gordon Brown's "British jobs for British workers".
Imperialism was hardly a Fantasy, it was merely the political reality of its day. We may in our lives deplore it as horrible by the tenets of our own morality (which i do) but given that it was a pragmatic reality for much of recorded history, to call it fantasy seem somewhat... fantastical?
As for religion, on the whole i prefer to live and let live on issues where proof can not be demonstrated one way or the other. I dislike the fanaticism which to which religion can lead, but then i dislike that same fanaticism in secular causes.

Ronnie

A point on which we entirely agree, Verity.

I believe that when making their inordinately aggressive remarks the 'non-believers are looking over their shoulders, just in case...

Anne Wotana Kaye

Hi again,

Back in Mousepad Land and want to say I agree with Verity. The blogs should remain for at least one month, because just when things are hotting up, disagreements etc. off they vanish. Have a very Happy Xmas and a Good New Year to you all, and don't let this Global Warming get you down. It's a blessing - if it is so cold now and causing such travel problems, just think what it would be like without it!

Anne Wotana Kaye

Verity is correct. We need blogs to remain a month, because as soon as discussions become interesting everything vanishes. Thank goodness for global warming. If this cold spell is causing such problems, imagine how it would be without it! Happy Xmas and a Good New Year to everyone.

Maximilian

@ Verity (today at 1:14 pm),

Any comment by a non-Moslem on anything to do with Islam is immediately greeted with frightened squeals of "Islamophobia!"

There doesn't seem to be an equivalent term for comments by non-Christians on Christianity, but I agree with you they always seem to miss the point entirely. Bertrand Russell's book Why I Am Not A Christian is, I think, the most recent case on record of an atheist having something interesting to say on the subject. Poor little Dawkins, for instance, doesn't even get close. He isn't a patch on Russell.

daniel maris

JR - The fantasy of imperialism was (a) that it was ethical (b) that it was going to go on (an empire on which the sun would never set) and (c) that it would enrich us in the long term.

Celebrity culture is also rooted in "reality". There are real celebrities.

Verity - You are confusing (a) religion with (b) a belief in God. There are plenty of people who have a belief in God who belong to no religion. And there are plenty of people who belong to a religion who have no belief in God.

I'd say you were also confusing theism with belief in God, whereas deism has equal right to that claim.

As to whether people who aren't religious have a right to comment on people who are religious, well obviously yes - since people who are religious love nothing more than to talk about unbelievers. Not only do we have a right, we have a duty where religions seek to impose their viewpoints against the spirit and practice of democracy.

That said, I don't personally take much delight in mocking religion as Dawkins and others seem to and I am not convinced by Dawkins' account of evolution - he deserves to be mocked for many of his unfounded beliefs.

Verity

What you wrote in your previous post, Daniel Marris, is: “Or in the various fantasies of religion that still cast a shadow over us now?" Dismissive and deeply silly, because you do not know for sure that all religions, or many, or the notion that there are no deities at all, are fantasies.

Now, you write: “Verity - You are confusing (a) religion with (b) a belief in God.”

Incorrect. I'm not that easily confused. I am responding to your rudeness in referring to people’s deeply held religious beliefs, which sustain them in times of sorrow and trouble, as “fantasies”. Assuming you do not have universal knowledge – and if you did, you’d be too busy to be poncing around on a blog - you don’t know that.

People seek truth. Who is to say that they have not found it?

What I resent is the sneering dismissiveness of the deeply held spiritual beliefs of others.

You continue: “As to whether people who aren't religious have a right to comment on people who are religious, well obviously yes - since people who are religious love nothing more than to talk about unbelievers.” They do? I know some religious people, and talking about unbelievers doesn’t seem to occupy much, if any, of their time at all. They are mostly occupied with living, pursuing their careers, deciding where to have lunch, reading, watching TV, talking, having a laugh. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever heard “unbelievers” discussed by my Christian, Jewish or Hindu friends or Muslim colleagues.

I intuit, and you are free to correct me if I’m wrong, that you refer primarily to Christians, for it is they who draw the most contumely from people like yourself, and they don’t take any outré forms of tit-for-tat.

You are not complaining about, for example, Hindus – who have far more deities than anyone else and whose dieties are incorporated into their lives and thoughts. Nor are you complaining about Buddhists, who may or may not have a diety.

I therefore conclude that you are referring to Christians, who are expected to be the default punching bag for all religions.

And here, you try to cloak yourself in freedom of speech: “Not only do we have a right, we have a duty where religions seek to impose their viewpoints against the spirit and practice of democracy.”

Aahhhh. Islam.

Quite a climb down.

I would certainly concur with any argument that proposed we disallow any Islamic voice in our national workings. This is because Islam is itself a fascist belief system, which is why the commies find it so easy to work in tandem with it.

For now.

Kennymac825

daifromwales said he wished the Yanks would come and liberate us from dictatorship. Wont happen. They need to point to someplace and say "Look, if we are not careful this can happen to us" Also their leader was elected by the people.

Rhoda Klapp

Maris, the empire on which the sun never sets referred to the timezone coverage, not the longevity. No-one who had the classical education which the rulers of the empire enjoyed could have the delusion that empires last forever.

David Ossitt

For the second time this week; today, whilst working in my study with radio 4 playing in the background, Woman’s Hour on radio four featured a poem, this was read in her usual bored dead flat monotone by that most thoroughly awful woman Caroline Duffy our Poet Laureate.

Not for the first time; I thought that this talentless harridan exemplifies all that is bad, nasty, and hateful about the liberal socialist homocentric purveyors of unadulterated crap that now pass for art in New Labour Britain.

Keith D

Verity@12:04
Wonderfully put.
Kennymac825@4:26
Not yet, though I think as in the 40's the Americans will conclude that a free Europe is fundamental to their own defence.A Europe in thrall to Islamofascists is the last thing our US cousins need.

I would rather we prevented the necessity ourselves.

A belief system that routinely employs terror and victimises half of its own followers[the female half] is bound to fail.
We must encourage its progress along that road.

Jon Rosenberg

Daniel Maris,
First Imperialism is neither ethical or unethical, we in our era consider it immoral, because it breaks the moral codes which we have been in the process of developing for several centuries, but have only come to a definitive and widely accepted fruition in the last few decades. Imperialism, has vast areas of ethical choices for both the Imperialist and for the conquered people, even with in the British Empire they were hardly homogeneous. If you look at the education experience of say Indian's or Malaysian's under the British Empire they were vastly different to the educational experience of those in the majority of our African colonies. The ethics of Empire are far to broad, and in my belief interesting, a subject to simply dismiss as a fantasy.
As for describing the notion that the sun would never set on the British Empire as a fantasy, yes with that I am in full agreement, even a cursory reading of history in their own day would have stopped that view from being accepted.
On you final point about Empire whether it was an enriching economic form or not. This is a subject of deep and complex debate among historians. It is true that many subscribe to the view that the Empire was a drain on British national resources. However that does not mean that the notion of a profitable Empire is an inherently fantastical one. If you look at Rome, Spain, China, Russia, they all found ways to make their Empires economies sound for long periods of time. So simply to put forward that because the British Empire might have been an economic failure (a contentious point at best) Imperialism is a fantasy, is not accurate.
Moving on, celebrities. While I didn't use the word in my original post, I'll take your bait.To say that Celebrity culture is rooted in reality is... an interesting point of view. It is certainly not one to which I subscribe. Some celebrities can enrich our lives by their creation of art, but there are many who merely peddle fantasies, and often that most pernicious of fantasies - getting rich quick without effort.
I will sign off here as I have far too many people coming for Christmas to enjoy myself with this debate further until 28th. I hope you and yours all enjoy a happy holiday season.

Maximilian

Speaking of islamofascists, there’s a report that Anwar al Awlaki is missing, believed dead, following a successful air strike against Al Qaeda in Yemen. Al Awlaki was the imam so madly admired by the Fort Hood mass murderer.

The news from Reuters here:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLDE5BN021._CH_.2420

And comment at Harry’s Place here:

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/12/24/the-late-anwar-al-awlaki/

Cuffleyburgers

Happy Christmas all you bastrads and Verity, and you might enjoy this link from the Economist's Bagehot:

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15111272

Verity

In addition, Jon Rosenberg, consult the correct saying, not the saying that some socialist teacher sneeringly taught you. The tense is the present: "The sun never sets on the British Empire". Which was a bald statement of fact.

Beer Moth

For all you failed asylum seekers out there, don't worry, you have forty years of newleft-steeped judiciary on your side:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/8429896.stm

Derek

Read, and weep:

'Wearing the traditional Chinese long gown and
short coat, Sun spoke in English to the assembly.
He said that he felt as though he had returned
home because Hong Kong and the University was
his intellectual birth place. He devoted the best
part of his speech to answer the question he was
often asked: "Where and how did I get my
revolutionary and modern ideas?" To the applause
of his audience he said: "I got those ideas in Hong
Kong". He went on to explain: "More than thirty
years ago, when I was studying in Hong Kong, I
spent a great deal of my spare time walking the
streets of the Colony. Hong Kong impressed me a
great deal because it was orderly calm and because
there was artistic work being done without
interruption. I went home to my home in
Xiangshan twice a year and could immediately
notice the great difference. There was disorder
instead of order, insecurity instead of security. Then
I compared Xiangshan with Hong Kong. Although
they are only fifty miles apart, the differences
impressed me so much that I began to wonder why
it was that foreigners have done such marvellous
things with this barren rock in only seventy or
eighty years, whilst China with several thousand
years of civilisation has not even one place like
Hong Kong". He thought that it was because there
was so much corruption in the Chinese government.
Then he said, "I was told by elders that the good
governments in England and Europe were not at
first natural to those places, but that men had
brought about a change in themselves. In England
years ago there was just the same corruption, just
the same forgeries in courts and the same cruelty,
but that the Englishmen loved liberty and the
Englishmen had said: 'We shall no longer stand
these things, we shall change them'. Then I got the
idea in my head: 'Why can we not change it in
China?'." He admitted that immediately after he
had graduated from the College of Medicine he
decided that it was necessary for him to give up his
profession of curing men's bodies and take up the
task of curing his country. He concluded the
speech by saying: "My fellow students, you and I
have studied in this English Colony and in an
English University and we must learn by English
examples. We must carry this English example of
good government to every part of China".’
Sun Yat Sen, 19th February, 1923, Hong Kong

David Ossitt

Verity

"In addition, Jon Rosenberg, consult the correct saying, not the saying that some socialist teacher sneeringly taught you. The tense is the present: "The sun never sets on the British Empire". Which was a bald statement of fact"

Precise; concise, and as is usual absolutely correct.

I would rather; you on my side in a battle or an argument than a hundred of these pinkoes.

David Ossitt

Rhoda Klapp

“My suggestion for phrase of the year, in so many contexts (not least Speccy journos) is therefore:”

They just don't get it.

Any other suggestions?

Rhoda I replied yesterday but it obviously never arrived; my suggestions would be:-

Any permutation of: “we have learnt, will learn, should learn, lessons from this.

But top of my hate list is “you know who I am” or rather worse “you know who I am, don’t you?

Or the very creepy and sinister “you do not know who your talking to, do you?

David Ossitt

Rhoda Klapp

“My suggestion for phrase of the year, in so many contexts (not least Speccy journos) is therefore:”

They just don't get it.

Any other suggestions?

Rhoda I replied yesterday but it obviously never arrived; my suggestions would be:-

Any permutation of: “we have learnt, will learn, should learn, lessons from this.

But top of my hate list is “you know who I am” or rather worse “you know who I am, don’t you?

Or the very creepy and sinister “you do not know who your talking to, do you?

Nicholas

Pax Britannica. A lot better than the current Third World exported mayhem and Western liberal guilt-fest. Those who wax lyrical about the iniquities of the British Empire conveniently forget thuggery, suttee, piracy, slavery, stoning, flaying, the death of a thousand cuts, cannibalism, the mountains of skulls at Dahomey and other African hell holes and all the other charming, ethnic, Third World practices the cod-commies are so desperate to replicate here and which are currently alive and well in so many places.

Happy Christmas and Best Wishes for a liberated New Year free from the Brown stain to fellow tin-foil hat wearers, window lickers and Christians on the right side of history and the future.

David Ossitt

“A Pakistani court has ordered that two men have their ears and noses cut off, as punishment for doing the same to a woman who refused to marry one of them”

And yet; we are told time and time again by our liberal elite, that the vast majority of Muslims are gentle peace loving angels who just need to be loved and understood.

What a load of old bollocks.

I wish; a very happy Christmas to everyone.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Dear David Ossitt, We all have our own ideas of justice. Not very nice going around without a nose and ears, although I think that being a man in this Nu Labour hell must be pretty grim. The elites, such as Harriet Hardman, etc. who practice a depraved form of feminism cut off (metaphorically) even more sensitive parts of men who fall foul of their doctrines. Personally, I feel like the Queen in "Alice in Wonderland" and would like to shout "Off with their heads"! to all the liberal elite and all the miserable lefties. With those sweet words, I really wish you all a peaceful and happy xmas and a very good 2010.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Seems something is wrong with the new computer. Wanted to reply to David Ossit and say we all have our own ideas of justice. I think the Harriet Hardmans and liberal elite of this Nu Labour regime do even more damage to the men in this country who dare to oppose them. They cut off (metaphorically) even more delicate parts than noses and ears. I will try to send this again. Sorry, if it has already gone through. Once again, the season's greetings!

daniel maris

Verity -

I was not thinking primarily of Christianity. All religions make unreasonable claims in varying degrees. Indeed Tertullian is remembered for declaring "I believe it because it is absurd" - although that is something of a paraphrase I believe.

Religions are not all equal. I like a lot of the Christian narrative - it seems to have many aspects that raise standards of human behaviour. I can't find much that is appealing in Islam. But there is much that is impressive and deeply philosophical in Buddhism and Hinduism.

If religions make claims about how we should be ruled or how we should rule ourselves, or criticise unbelievers then they are fair game. Most religious people are unwilling to debate freely their claims but that shouldn't stop us commenting on them.

daniel maris

The idea that our forebears were incapable of ethical judgement is a nonsense.

There were plenty of British people who opposed the Imperial project. They were known as Little Englanders.

The French Revolutionaries recognised the claims of Negro slaves to be freed and to rule themselves in fraternal association with the French Republic. That was all before Britain really acquired much of an Empire.

Maximilian

I seem to have left it till the last possible moment, so:

Happy Christmas, everybody.

David Ossitt

daniel maris

“The French Revolutionaries recognised the claims of Negro slaves to be freed and to rule themselves in fraternal association with the French Republic.”

“That was all before Britain really acquired much of an Empire.”

All before Britain acquired an Empire utter nonsense; in 1789 at the start of the French Revolution, we the British certainly had an Empire.

For conformation go to:- http://www.britishempire.co.uk/timeline/colonies.htm

Wilhelm

'' That was all before Britain really had an Empire.''

An erroneous comment from start to finish. Obviously he's never heard of the 13 American colonies, but thats the facist left for you. They distort history to suit their own world view. Sad.

Haiti was a very rich country at one time then they became the first independent black republic and its been all down hill ever since, its the poorest country in the world contrast and compare this with its neighbour , the Domincan Republic.

Verity

Daniel Maris, backing off considerably from his original dismissive, sneering post, writes: “If religions make claims about how we should be ruled or how we should rule ourselves, or criticise unbelievers then they are fair game.”

Christianity provides a moral code to which billions of people willingly bind themselves. There is no death for apostacy. People who are committed to Christianity are committed because they want to be. Buddhism does not offer a moral code at all. Buddhists believe all the answers lie within the seeker.

Only Islam, as far as I know, is committed to controlling thought and behaviour. Only Islam sees merit in dictating, rather than trying to lead people to do the right thing through their consciences. It seems to be the most prescriptive religion.

In any event, I’m not qualified to be discussing this subject, but I responded because I took exception to your dismissing all that billions of people hold dear and, indeed, more or less, strive to live by. Christianity is the only religion which gets bashed under the certainty that there will be no reprisals.

daniel maris

D Ossit -

I said before Britain had really aqcuired much of an Empire. In 1789 we had nothing of note in Africa, India had not been secured, and we had nothing in Indochina, the Pacific. Australian colonisation was hardly under way. We did not have New Zealand. We did not have Hong Kong. All we had then was Canada, some West Indian territories, and a few isolated forts here and there.

The point is that even before Empire had reached its height there were plenty of people around who thought Imperial rule and slavery were wrong.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Just listened to the Queen's Christmas message. As usual, it was a ray of hope that decency still prevails, even in these cynical days. It was delightful to hear, as a non-Christian person, that this is still a Christian country, and the Queen spoke of the values which this society must maintain - helping those in need. Whilst showing youngsters in all their diversity from the Commonwealth, Her Majesty maintained the true Christian message. I now fear that the loonies in Nu Labour will try and punish Elizabeth !! with nasty editorials when "The Guardian" resumes publication. I am sure Balls, Straw and Harman must all be gnashing their teeth.

Verity

Daniel Maris writes: "said before Britain had really aqcuired much of an Empire. In 1789 we had nothing of note in Africa, India had not been secured, and we had nothing in Indochina, the Pacific. Australian colonisation was hardly under way. We did not have New Zealand. We did not have Hong Kong. All we had then was Canada, some West Indian territories, and a few isolated forts here and there."

Your point being?

“You respond to Jon Rosenberg above: “Fantasy?
“What about people wrapped up in the fantasy of imperialism in the 19th century?
“Or the fantasy of nationalism in the 20th century?
“Or in the various fantasies of religion that still cast a shadow over us now - they can't all be right can they?
“Give me reality TV over imperialism, nationalism and religious supremacism any day...”.

Leaving aside the aptness, given the quality of your posts, of your affinity for reality TV, actually, other than the garments they are clothed in, the major religions, barring Islam, all carry a similar message. I believe they all promote the belief that there are reprisals for deliberately harming one’s fellow man, whether it’s burning in hell in the afterlife, or karma, in which life is lived over and over again until one has learned and no longer has to come back. The major religions all adhere to the belief that there is more to mankind than the physical body, and that one has control over the spiritual dimension. Freedom of will, in other words.

On your dismissive “What about people wrapped up in the fantasy of imperialism in the 19th century?” It wasn’t a fantasy. It was real. Saying it was a fantasy doesn’t make it so. No wonder reality TV is your comfort zone.

egh

This also in support of David Ossitt @ 10:56 Christmas Eve. Yes, I researched the vile Duffy when it became instated on my horizon: only to find that some of its vilest work was part of the GCSE syllabus. I may never recover from the nausea.

PS: I think this week's strand is one of the best: it's typical of those that would benefit from development over a longer time. So this also in support of Verity et al.

Paul B

You find the following link interesting, its a little long, but worth sticking with imo. Its about joke telling.

http://tinyurl.com/ygzdfgr

James Strong

Another plane under terrorist attack by a mohammedan,allegedly.
We need much more vigorous racial profiling at airports.
It is absurd that middle-aged Protestants and old Jain grannies have the same questions and the same chance of rigorous searching as young male mohammedans.

Derek

James Strong No, not "racial profiling" - cultural profiling, cultural profiling.

Emma Royds

I think that between them James Strong 11:20am and Derek 12:06pm Dec 26th have it right. But if I were in Security at Heathrow etc and I had a line of say 100 people in front of me, 99 European looking and one Arab, I know which one I'd check out first. Race and Islam unfortunately, is strongly linked to terrorist activity. Wicked of me to say so and I shall probably deserve a damn good fatwa for it. The thing is, Osama Bin Laden is probably a very nice but misguided man who has somehow or other (God only knows how) misinterpreted the 'extremely' peaceful message of the Koran or had a bad religion teacher who is probably a very nice but misguided man who has somehow or other (God only knows how)......

Anne Wotana Kaye

Hardly surprising that the latest air terrorist suspect has a home in Londonstan. No doubt, Slimeball Jack Straw will be demanding that the US return him to the UK forthwith, so that his human rights can be protected.

Emma Royds

Seeing as a fire extinguisher and water was used on the Nigerian or was it British chap, will the Americans be accused of waterboarding him? By the way, hands up all those opposed to racial profiling at airport security now????

Verity

Well, Michigan is one of those twerp states that doesn't have the death penalty, but aviation comes under the Federal Aviation Authority, so let's hope they waterboard him then give him a lethal injection. As there were so many witnesses, and given that we already know what his motivation was, I don't think there's any point in wasting money on a trial.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Another question: If this chap is a Nigerian national who completed his studies in 2008, how come he was able to maintain an expensive flat in London's West End? Surely his student's visa had run out, or is the usual lasse faire Nu Labour doles out?

Frank P

Emma Royds

Obviously a close relative of Rhoda Klapp. Sisters perhaps? Difficult to separate, particularly at bedtime I should think.

David Ossitt

"Akmal Shaikh’s British national set to die in Urumqi at 10am on December 29"

"Two members of Akmal Shaikh’s family – his first cousins, Soohail Shaikh and Nasir Shaikh, both of London – leave this afternoon for Beijing on a mercy mission to plead for Akmal’s life"

Am I the only one; who wants to scream to high heaven in frustration each time some foreigner is referred to as British?

Most of the various ethnics who were banged up in Guantanamo; we acknowledged as our own, on the strength of having once bought a bus ticket in London.

Any little drug running slapper; from anywhere in the world only needs to have spent a little time in the UK to have the weight of our Foreign Secretary pleading her case.

Now we have another drug smuggling idiot trying to beat the system by claiming to be a British mad man.

And we have a Prime Minister who is pleading on his behalf.

Frank P

Yet another glaring breach of 'Homeland Security' - not to mention international airport laxity. As for the British 'Intelligence' services, why has this Islamic nutter from Nigeria been allowed to establish a nest in Mansfield Street, Londonistan, W1, adjacent to that ghetto Harley Street and Duchess Street (pissing distance from from BBC Broadcasting House and, if reports are correct, to attend UCL to propagate his insane philosophy among the already heavily ideologically impregnated Islamic contingent in academia.

Luckily for us, most of these deranged pricks can't even tie up their own shoe-laces or pull up their socks without fucking up, let alone set fire to them. But their antics at the very least least expose to the more determined jihadist just how easily it is to breach Western Security at any level. After all, if a transparent jihadist from the US Army is allowed to mouth off pro-Al Qa'ida propaganda and sympathies in the biggest barracks in America without let, and subsequently shoot dead 14 of his comrades, wounding a couple of dozen more, why should we be surprised that a Nigerian nutter can attempt another atrocity over Detroit City and almost succeed:

Last night I stirred from sleep o'er Detroit City,
And I dreamed about those oi-l fields back home.
I dreamed about my mother,
dear old Papa, Sister and brother,
I dreamed about 72 virgins
who've been waiting for so long.
I wanna go BOOM, I wanna go BOOM,
Ohhhhh, how I waaaann-na go BOOM!

(Apologies to Taff Jones).

However, as most reasonably sapient Muslims know, they don't really need to breach our security systems to succeed - they already have it sown up demographically anyway; they are in; they are among us; they are at it; they are comfortable and they are succeeding. No doubt they sit back in amusement when they see our 'defence' mechanisms so easily exposed by the more manic and stupid among their devotees. 'Every little helps' they must mutter, noting the irony of that phrase and who has adopted it as its marketing slogan.

But the POTUS, Barack Hussein Obama, from his birthplace in Kenya - sorry, Hawaii, as he works out in his idyllic retreat and does a few press ups to improve his pecs and six-pack, assures us that everything is 'under control'. I suppose from his point of view, both geographically and ideologically, it is indeed!

Verity

David Ossitt - Fear not. You are not alone. Every time I see some piece of Islamic drug dealing rubbish referred to as British, my blood pressure hits the ceiling.

Knowing the Chinese, pressure from interested parties and "mercy missions" will not work. The Chinese have their heads screwed on the right way. In Singapore, drug dealers are hanged on Fridays at dawn, just in time for the morning's edition of The Straits Times.

As everyone knows that this is immutable, Singapore doesn't have to exact this penalty very often. In fact, probably once or twice a year max.

For dealing in a tiny, tiny amount of drugs, the perp gets the cane, which doesn't sound too bad until you realise that they use the word "cane" to describe a bamboo rotan - a thick, flexible piece of wood that's around six feet long, and the administrator of justice swings it with all his might. They have a special pad that they put over the kidneys, because the force of the strike can burst them. If someone is sentenced to, say, eight strokes of the cane, they do it in two sessions because eight strokes would probably kill the perp. So they give him half, then put him in hospital to recover, and then he has four more to look forward to when he has healed.

I don't think the Chinese will think twice about despatching this arsehole.

In fact, I'm surprised that they've given these special pleaders a visa to get into the country.

Derek

Another important question to be addressed. especially at the anniversary of Operation Cast Lead which purportedly suppressed islamic rocketfire at Israel from the Occupied Territory of the Gaza Strip,but at what cost, is whether the force used against Mr. Abdulmutallab was disproportionate. Schuringa, it is reported, jumped over one or possibly as many as four passengers to reach Mr. Abdulmutallab. This kind of manoeuvre is pregnant with risk for the passengers involved and it is not yet clear whether any of them were injured or worse. Certainly there was always a possibility that they might have been and this should have given Schuringa pause; apparently however he did not as much as request his fellow passengers' permission before committing himself to his reckless action. The Captain of the an aircraft is effectively the law enforcement officer on board a plane in flight and ordinary people should not be encouraged to take the law into their own own hands. Furthermore, a man with his trousers on fire deserves to be treated with a modicum of dignity and consideration, but there was a chance here that the victim could have been seriously injured by the momentum of Schuringa's body and deeply hurt psychologically by the unnecessarily theatrical attention drawn to his trousers. There are constant suggestions in the media that militant islamists have more power in their trousers than in their brains and this kind of reporting can only reinforce that kind of prejudice. It should stop.

daniel maris

Oh dear Verity, you really shouldn't expose your ignorance in this way:

"Buddhism does not offer a moral code at all. Buddhists believe all the answers lie within the seeker."

All Buddhists accept the recommended eightfold path - and three of those eight principles concern ethical conduct.

So, wrong. Wrong in a big way.

And I don't think anyone here is going to take too seriously your call for the torture and extrajudicial murder of the perpetrator of this latest terrorist outrage, now in US custody.

Verity

Maris – The Eightfold path is a recommendation. It’s signposts to people seeking enlightenment.

It’s not mandatory. You can use some of the guidelines and, through meditation, choose your own route. Just as people driving along a long, straight American highway, for example, can go straight along the highway or choose to reach their destination along some side roads.

“And I don't think anyone here is going to take too seriously your call for the torture and extrajudicial murder of the perpetrator of this latest terrorist outrage, now in US custody.”

Sadly, you are correct in that many people who have no power over the situation, i.e. normal citizens of civilized countries, will once again be bereft of justice. I doubt whether the Fort Hood murderer of 14 soldiers who should have been secure in Fort Hood, for example, will ever be offed.

Anyway, what is fun is, the airline moron had that canister strapped to his upper thigh. Too funny. Even if he’d managed to die, those 72 recycled virgins would have had a real job on their hands …

Verity

Also, Daniel Maris, Buddhists believe in free will. No one is obliged to follow any particular path at all.

The goal is enlightenment. The highway is irrelevant.

Once again, hoist by your own petard.

Nicholas

Bearing in mind the well-documented history of the last 50 years of terrorism in the air it is astounding that Muslims are still permitted to buy airline tickets and fly.

Like the non-discriminatory airport security checks it reveals the Western world to be very stupid and self-destructive. Well, in Britain's case we already know that from almost 13 years of elected New Labour "government".

Chief Supt. Harry 'Snapper' Organs

Frank P @7:04 pm,

Following an undercover operation the lads down at C division are currently of the opinion that the cabaret artiste known as "Miss Emma from Chalfont St Giles" could indeed be doppleganger of subject Romeo Kilo. (aka The Tattooed Trucker from Terrington St Clement) The former's condition being somehow linked to the long hours spent by the latter behind the wheel, in the poorly heated cab of a HGV delivering frozen veg to the nation.

Emma Royds

"Obviously a close relative of Rhoda Klapp. Sisters perhaps? Difficult to separate, particularly at bedtime I should think." Ooh, you are awful but I like your style. I was wondering if your name, Frank Pee, makes you our long lost brother?

Verity

Nicholas, I don't know if you saw my post above, but not only are Muslims allowed to fly, this one was allowed to board without a passport.

Plus his own father had written to the US government to say his son might be an incipient terrorist.

Nicholas

Verity, yes I did see it - the mind boggles - but not much because that sort of stupidity is par for the course with the infantile idiots who supposedly "run" things (missing 'i').

And on the news this evening we were treated to the staggeringly imbecilic comment that security profiling Muslims might be "controversial" and offensive to Muslims. What about the offence caused to all the innocent people murdered across the world by Islamic terrorists in the last fifty years? And the offence caused to their grieving families. Barmy.

No, much better to include the 60 year old white Christian granny in the security checks to show we believe in "fairness and equality" (q.v. the idiot Harmon), to swamp the security systems with work and to make it less likely to spot the Muslim terrorist. Personally I'd stop them all flying, period. If they want to fly again they know what to do.

Verity

Nicholas, this won't get through the time zone, but in case it does, of course all Muslims should be stopped from flying to civilised countries. I would say they should be able to fly around Dar-es-Salaam freely, because who cares? - but to Western civilisation, no. Haram.

Ghengis

Nicholas hits the spot again --- if indeed a total ban is placed upon those of muslim persuasion because of the actions of the minority, then the blameless majority will be given the opportunity to prove the often stated claim that they are peaceful

Emma Royds

So Chief Supt. Organs, (Dec 27th 11:16am) it was one of your boys who took down my particulars when I was caught in Mid-itch. Will I never be safe from bent coppers? Now could I beg as a personal favour that you to refrain from drawing further attention to the name my dear mother, Mrs. Paula Royds gave me? I don’t mind for myself but responding to comments such as yours deprives me of the time I need to solve the problems of the world on this blog. I am so thankful though for the sake of my sister Madge that mother didn’t marry her first love, Peregrine Oxtrap.

Jon Rosenberg

Some interesting things while I was away I see.
@Verity: To be able to be so right, so wrong and so unpleasant in one short post is something of a gift. Yes, the statement does refer to a geographical spread of land, on which the sun can not set because it will always be in daylight somewhere in the British imperial possessions. However such a simplistic reading of that expression misses looking at the underlying imagery of a perpetual, perfected stasis which it conveys. It was said when the British Empire was at its hight and there exists within the statement an implication that it will remain that way indefinitely. As for remarks about my history teachers, some would have gloried in being called socialists, some would have been appalled, but as it was a while ago I suspect most of them are now dead.

@Daniel Maris:
I'm afraid you are both grossly misinterpreting my statement and making your own argument from a false premiss. I never said that our ancestors were incapable of ethical judgements, indeed I pointed out an area of Imperial policy making were the ethical judgements of the different people involved were at strong variance to one another. What I said was that Imperialism itself is not a matter of ethical judgement, it is one of morals. Ethics are situational, not conceptual, morals are. We in our age (correctly to my point of view) believe that imperialism is an immoral form of national expansion. For the bulk of recorded history this is not true. Empires where seen as frequently good, stable, and profitable exercises which allowed the majority of their inhabitants to live without experiencing war for generations at a time. This was the moral rational for seeing them as positives things. As I previously argued it is, historically speaking, only in recent decades (since the 1940's) that this has not been the majority view of the British ruling classes. (the view of the rest of British society is much more difficult to express with any certainty).