Identifying Brown's culpability in Iraq

baldingscot

And where the hell is the opposition in all this? They should be asking these questions

Woody

Fraser
Is anyone going to write anything positive about David Cameron on the Spectator?
I personally am getting sick and tired of this 'Daily Mail - Cameron bashing' that seems to be permeating the media at the moment.
In 1997 New Labour didn't get anything like this level of negativity. None of it is warranted in my view - it is just lazy journalism. None of you ever leave your desks and go out and find 'real' stories, it is just all Westminster tosh.

JohnOfEnfield

....and why has INVESTMENT (sorry couldn't resist the use of this word)in the armed forces gone down year on year as a proportion of GDP whilst you have been in Government,in spite of fighting two major wars.

Dennis Churchill

No wonder Cameron can’t:“Seal the Deal” with the electorate. All part of a political class that is useless and hopeless.

Chuck Unsworth

Well, where do we go with this? I'd agree with all of this - and much, much more.

I would add that the butchery in Iraq continues apace. For example, the police and militia in Basra are known to be deeply involved in assassinations of former supporters of our troops. Thus these people, trained and re-armed by us, with direct responsibility for peace-keeping, continue the internecine warfare. Similarly the 'government' in Afghanistan is deeply corrupt, yet we continue to pour out our blood and treasure on these animals.

Brown is loathed by the military who see him as nothing but duplicitious. His choreographed visits are regarded as political farce. However, he lost the PR war years ago.

Chuck Unsworth

@ Dennis Churchill

And your definition of 'political class' is what, exactly?

Irene

Woody:

My thoughts exactly!

strapworld

WHY is William Hague making this press statement. This is a decision of the Prime Minister and The Leader of the Opposition should be LEADING! Something Cameron finds it impossible to do!

I am sorry to keep on about this but I want to see the end of this disgraceful government and Brown consigned to history (If not, sadly, jail) but I certainly do not want a poor PR person who has been spoon fed all his life, surrounded by his posh pals and with no idea whatsoever what the ordinary person wants or feels.

I want a fighter for my country not an apologist. I want someone who will kick Brown's backside not continually agree with him! I want a leader and Cameron does not fit the bill. He has to step aside for a better person. Someone with fight in their belly not champagne!

Henry Rogers

After the election with, if the UK is lucky, a different regime in power, the enquiry could be given some teeth. Brown might then wish that he had given his evidence earlier.

This week and next nobody, apart from political anoraks, will be paying the slightest attention. Cameron might just as well save his breath till after the holiday.

Fraser, Woody has a point. Coffee House has been getting a bit Daily Mail-ish of late. Or perhaps even New Statesman-like.

Addenough

Some time ago I listened, on The World Tonight, to an excellent discussion on defence spending which included leading experts. At the conclusion it was announced that the Conservatives had been invited to take part but had declined. At that point I realised that they were as useless as Nulabour. They can't kick a ball into an open goal. God help us all in 2010.

Dr Iago

Great stuff Fraser. It is a genuine pleasure to see you back on the case taking names and kicking asses, where complacent names indeed need taking and inert asses cry out for a sharp steel toe capped kicking. We will need much more of this after the election. Many people on Coffeehouse remain (rightly) unconvinced about the direction and focus of a Cameron administration. A key role for the Spectator will be to hold them to account in manner that was entirely lacking during New Labour's first term and which has contributed greatly to the mess that we now find ourselves in.

I really hope that you and the Spectator Staff have the thick skin, self belief and balls to carry off this Watchmen role. It won’t be easy, but we, a conservative administration and the country will desperately need it. I’m certain many Coffeehousers will be urging you on in this role whilst remembering your incisive analysis and trenchant criticism of the present shambles. Your track record and articles like this give me at least some hope.

Unfortunately what I’m no longer so convinced about is the Spectators commitment to the second part of the quote. Who are the watchmen who watch? Well in a fragmented, contradictory but very real sense that’s us now, Coffeehouse – individually and collectively. However we can only do this if we are encouraged and facilitated in this role by you and the Spectator staff.

Where is this going. One word and I’m afraid its Neather. Many posters have requested a commentary and space for discussion but whilst this has been promised it has not been delivered. I don’t know or care about the reasons but I feel the tiny sliver of impact every time I come to Coffeehouse and the Neather discussion still isn’t there. A small part of my enthusiasm dims and a corresponding seed of resentment and alienation from Coffeehouse grows.

If Coffeehouse cannot be a responsive and democratic platform, if the Spectator cannot provide an open forum for those watching the watchmen then who can? Ignoring public opinion, lecturing and avoiding open debate has been a defining characteristic of this pathetic administration. It has also been a hall mark of the supine client media rightly attacked by Guido and Peter Oborne. I think the Neather decision represents a serious cross road for both the Spectator and your editorship Fraser. Please show us that the man who had the bottle to tackle Brown’s evasion and spin in his own press conference won’t adopt Brown’s own tactics in avoiding, sidestepping and finally smothering the issue that has most inflamed Coffeehouse during this last year.

Rant over. Please accept my very best wishes for Christmas and the New Year.

davefromluton

Cameron should say that if he wins the election he will suspend this farce immediately and then arrange a full judicial enquiry

Gawain

Perhaps they don't ask these questions because Labour could easily turn the tables and ask whether the Conservatives will increase defence expenditure and fight the war properly? I'm not sure Cameron or Hague would have a convincing answer. Brown has left the public finances in such a state that ignominious retreat may be the only honest answer.

BrianSJ

Fraser
A good list of questions.
Where is the opposition now and where has it been?

Dennis Churchill

Chuck Unsworth
Peter Oborne gives a good definition in: “The Triumph of the Political Class.”---I think it would have been better to have used the title “The rise of the political class.” As their incompetence will prevent any final triumph.

Chuck Unsworth

@ Dennis Churchill

Three points:

1. Oborne does not provide a definition, per se. He merely describes some perceptions (his, mostly) of a disparate and random grouping.

2. I asked for your definition.

TrevorsDen

I agree with Woody. this carping is pathetic.
Its 2 days before Christmas for Chrissake.

10 points? - the electorate have the attention span of a goldfish - they will be comatose after point 3.

Was thewre an enquiry after Arnhem? The important thing is are we learning the lessons from our mistakes. THAT is the important enquiry.

The points Fraser mentions can be bandied about in the debates.

Besides the Armed Forces vote is surely signed sealed and delivered.

In2minds

TrevoursDen @ 10.34pm - “the electorate have the attention span of a goldfish - they will be comatose after point 3”.

So make your posts shorter?

teledu

Strapworld is right. Sadly, although Cameron doesn't seem to have any fire in his belly, I can't think of any other leading politician from the main parties who does. (Dennis Skinner doesn't count as "leading".)
What a selection of lightweight political tossers we've ended up with. Quick enough to get angry about their expenses but bloody useless at actually running a country. No wonder the BNP and UKIP appeal to so many.

Mike Towl

Crikey lads, steady on. What's the matter with everyone this morning? First you cast dispersions on The Irag Inquiry, surely your not suggesting Gordy has been on the telephone pressurising Commissar Chilcott to keep him out of the dock until after an election. Really! What next? Then you suggest the dear old 'Speccy' has turned 'Leftie'. Think yourselves lucky lads we live in a socialist utopia you wouldn't be allowed to publish this clap-trap in a free society. Come on it's Xmas, be like me, forget cynicism for the season. Give our beloved establishment a bit of positive comment for a change. I for one don't subscribe to the idea John Chilcott is a marionette, with his strings being pulled from Whitehall. You'll all be suggesting Hutton and Butler were a white-wash next! Blimey! And just because the publisher and editor of this estimable tome are, lets say, northerners this doesn't necessarily mean an impending idealogical merger with 'The Daily Worker?' I've read this old rag for too long to believe that! So, loosen up lads, get in touch with reality like me. Have to go now, the nurse is here with my medication.

The Laughing Cavalier

Balding Scot asks "where the hell is the opposition in all this?". Good question, where the hell was Fox? His failure to hold Blair and Brown to account is why I always rate him as useless in the Conservative Home surveys

Colin

Maybe the tories are saving themselves, maybe?

On the other hand the tories abject political stupidity and vanity, with regard to their conduct in the run up to the Iraq scandal has spiked their guns. They have no room nor right to offer any critical destruction of the government's shocking handling of the Iraq war and it's aftermath.

Sadly, it seems they are going down the same road in relation to AGW.

As a final thought, maybe they don't want to win the next election. After all, there's a political logic in that.

Lord Boyders

A bit of positive stuff for our Dave would be a nice Christmas present from the Spec.

RobC

Why was Cameron not more vocal to the troops needs? Simple we collectively elected an avalanche of morons three times on the trot effectively ham stringing the opposition.
The Chilcot enquiry will not be talking to Brown, Alexander or Milliband until after the election ostensibly to avoid party politics doh!
Isn't this decision which is on the contrary,blatantly politically partisan, yet another brush full of white wash.
I personally cant wait for an election to see Brown and this awful bunch of incompetents wiped out at the ballot box.

Tiberius

Woody, Irene, TrevorsD: couldn't agree more. There is at present an "attack the Tories at every opportunity" policy from the jounos on CH at the moment.

I don't want the blog to be a cheerleading forum for the Tories (indeed it is to be welcomed if the blog keeps them on their toes), but the moaning is becoming predictable and tedious.

For a depiction od the reality of the Tories current predicament, read Ben Brogan in the DT today. It's much more intellectually rewarding.

Dennis Churchill

Chuck Unsworth
In his opening chapter Peter Oborne contrasts Peter Lilley with Michael Portillo writing:”Peter Lilley, unlike his cabinet ally Michael Portillo, was definitely not a member of the political class. He had a career as a stockbroker before entering politics...”
Throughout his book he emphases that it is the fact of spending their working life within politics, only holding relatively junior positions outside this area that distinguishes our political class. Even when they have held jobs outside politics these tend to be within a few areas such as the media/PR or law.
So I would define the political class as full time politicians who have never held senior positions outside politics.
Such as Blair,Brown,Cameron,Straw,Hodge,Mandelson,Miliband(s),Darling....maybe you could suggest the odd cabinet or shadow cabinet member who has held a senior position in industry, the Armed Forces or finance?Oh yes,Letwin.

Chuck Unsworth

@ Trevorsden

I'm afraid that we (or, notably, the current political leaders) do not 'learn the lessons' of history - or anything else, for that matter.

The art of management and war is to anticipate, knowing that all one's expectations will be trashed the minute the first shot is fired, but preparing in depth through careful study of history and one's enemies' dispositions.

Frankly, 'learning the lessons' is now a hackneyed phrase which by constant use has degraded to the point that is it meaningless.

One might also ask why it has become so necessary to 'learn the lessons'. Perhaps it's just another example of the failure of the great 'Education, education, education' scam.

Rocketdog

Iago is right. Neather is the key to the door, and both sides are worried about what might happen once that door is open and the dogs (that's us folks) are let out. It stops being a game then and gets serious. This is going to happen anyway, the only question is when, and who is caught with their arse in the air disappearing over the fence with the family silver

Naomi Muse

A good set of proper questions, Fraser, but Gordon Brown won't answer any of them, whatever pressure is put on him.

These questions should be put up singly on a day to day basis in a concerted effort in the media with as many of his advisors as possible set up for answers. Let's see if the rats abandon the sinking ship.

Racia

Well said Woody. I've been thinking the same for a long time.

Ghengis

Hopefully, the unwashed will percieve the arrangement agreed between the enquiry and GB as on being weighted in his favour. If it were otherwise he would appeared upon day one.

Woody

Thank you to all those who agreed with my comments. As a person of mature years hoping to retire shortly, the £400 spent on a new laptop now seems justified because I was beginning to wonder if it had been a complete waste of money.

JONNY

'No wonder Cameron can’t:“Seal the Deal” with the electorate'

If you say so Dennis Churchill.
But Thatcher didn't in 1979.
And Blair didn't think he had in 1997.
And you tell me Dennis,has Brown sealed the bloody deal?
Or has Clegg?
Or Uncle Tom Cobley?
Or did even Wonderman Obama last November?
The hard fact of politics would seem to be the inescapable fact that no one seals the deal until he's got the votes.
And I'll tell you one other thing.
There is a rock-hard residual Labour vote in the country of up to 30%
No Tory on earth will ever seal the deal with them.

Chuck Unsworth

@ Dennis Churchill

Well, Oborne - as illustrated by your reference - has chosen only one criterion, i.e. the lack of experience of a 'senior' post outside politics. That begs the question as to what of those from other callings who have become MPs - for example, journalists, doctors, teachers and so on.

It may also be observed - and argued, that MPs constitute a self-selecting grouping, in that only certain types of persons would choose to become MPs. This is no different to other choices of career or calling.

I think it ridiculous to expect - as some observers do - the membership of the House of Commons to be 'representative' of the population (although I do think that MPs should take care to represent the views of their electorates). It's no more desirable than expecting the Clergy or the Judiciary or the Medical profession to be 'representative'. Further, why should MPs be selected on the basis of their profession, race, religion, colour of eyes, shape of nose or any other damn fool arbitrary criteria? And that is where Oborne's position fails. Maybe he should spend a little time considering the motivation of those who put themselves forward as candidates, rather than their employment history.

Actually it's about ability, not equality. I admire Oborne's tenacity in many matters, but Oborne seems to think that success in one field is a measure of likely ability in another. As we all know, that is simply not so.

Robert Upfold

Fraser,

Your questions nail Brown very effectively.

Brown didn't acquire name of Macavity for nothing. He claims to be strong on policy but we never knowe quite what it is because he says one thing or does another, or makes fatuously unproven statements about 'lifting x million children out of poverty'.

Brown wilfully confuses policy and ideology and although he was silent in public about his actual political he has now emerged as an unreconstructed Marxist attacking the mythical idea of the 'playing fields of Eton'.

Cameron must stress his party's pragmatism and practicality in policy and demonstrate the fixed outlook of his ideogically-driven opponent.

Woody,

You are dead right on the Cameron-bashing. He is not yet in government and is under no obligation take responsibility for Labour's policy decisions.

However, Cameron's Conservatives have made it clear that they will be more business-friendly to help develop the economy to provide sustainable finance for their commitment to support the armed forces, while being compassionate towards the less privileged.

We have to wait for the Conservatives to form a government before we can make a judgement about effectiveness of the leadership, but so far I rate Cameron highly on his ability to communicate with the fractious and often bloody-minded poulation of our disunited kingdom.

TrevorsDen

'strapworld is right' ??

No he is not, he is bollockingly wrong.

Is that short enough?

Dennis Churchill

Chuck Unsworth
No I would not advocate the type of “Representative” candidate list currently being promoted as it just considers the sex and ethnic group of the candidate rather than whether they have the ability and experience to be effective.
If you owned Whelk Stores-R-US you would not employ Cameron or Brown as senior executives based on their CVs outside politics.
You certainly would not employ Brown as a Bullion Dealer would you? But he was put in a position where he sold our gold at $275 per oz against the advice of the Bank of England. The cost to us is estimated at £5 billion.
A classic example of the political class must be Margaret Hodge. A member of the vastly wealthy Oppenheimer family.
She graduated with third class B.Sc in Economics and got a job in Market Research.
Her political career started in Islington Council (Jack Straw was her Deputy as Chair of the Housing Committee)where she became leader of the council during the worst child sex abuse scandal ever to occur in state run children’s homes in this country.
Whether it was irony or just contempt for the electorate she was appointed as the first Minister for Children!
A Multi-Millionairess living in Islington she “represents” probably the poorest borough in London: Barking.
She will be opposed at the next election by Nick Griffin of the British National Party who will no doubt make much of her background.
Labour will need to work hard at the postal ballots—probably set a new record for Social Housing in Multiple Occupation.
With the appalling standard of our politicians, who seem to go from Student Activists to the Cabinet without any experience of managing anything, we need to limit their power and work towards more direct democracy. You wouldn’t trust many of our MPs to fill out a petty cash form correctly, why trust them with so much power?

John

More anti-Cameron stuff from Nelson, Hoskin and Co.
What's it all about Fraser? Are you trying pull the UKIPPERS from ConHome? Or pacify the Barclay brothers?
I've subscribed to The Spectator for many years, but I've become a little sick of its attitude of late.
I don't expect subservience to the Tory Party, but a little bit of loyalty and encouragement wouldn't come amiss leading up to the General Election.

Another John

John. Fraser is absolutely right to have a pop at David C as well as Gordon. Only party hacks and journalists with no integrity disguise their opinions. The Spectator does not subscribe to Democratic Centralism - luckily!

sebastian

NuLab miscalculated when they sent our troops ill-equipped to fight two wars. The miscalculation was monumental. They miscalculated (and continue to), too, in managing the "peace" at home. The economy is a mess and we loiter in recession. The miscalculation is legendary. So we have monumental, legendary miscalculation. Almighty cock-ups that generations will suffer from.
How can these destructive bunglers ever be handed the reins of power again? Ever.

B Phillips

Why bother with an enquiryvwhich is DESIGNED report AFTER the election. Save these questions for the election campaign where Brown will be accountable directly to the electorate.People will then be able to see his true character as he tries desperately to distance himself from ANY responsibility for the present sorry mess

John Hughes-Wilson

The key point in all this is that the Defence Budget has been kept at peacetime values - and been whittled down in real terms - throughout Brown's long term as controller of the UK government's funds.

To try and fight a war where men are dying with the nation's bank manager effectively refusing to spend more money to do so is not just hypocritcal and parsimonious -it is morally wrong.

Brown should be brought to account: the soldiers are too cowed to speak out and the MoD toes the Party Line.

Who then will speak for Britain's soldiers dying and being horribly maimed in what is claimed to be some politically noble cause?

Either get out or fund it properly.

UK Fred

Flim-flam Dave clearly is not opposing as one would expect a leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition to oppose, and he has polarised opinion into to camps: one says "Get fell in behind Mr. Cameron and shuddup, your 'orrible bunch" and the other says "If it's a choice of ZaNu Labour or Blue Labour, I'll vote for a minority party like UKIP, and who knows, maybe if enough people do that, we will have a UKIP MP instead of one of he big three "toe the line" candidates. After all, if they haven't successful run a business, big or small, what chance will they have leading the country."

If Cameron is so intent on being "heir to Blair" maybe he should join ZaNu Lie Baaaah and get all his sheep to follow him. After the next election he won't have much competition there.

John David Barnett

UK Fred

Reading this kind of stuff makes me despair.

amanfromMars

And things are probably a lot worse than you have even imagined, for peace is anathema to war and therefore must be fought against with constant terror alerts and claims of weapons of mass destruction production for justification of its machinery ....... but it only makes foes and enemies of friends? ..... http://tinyurl.com/GreatGamePawns

Why does a Fourth Reich New World Order Program not seem totally ridiculous. And whatever happened to the Project for the New American Century website which so very clearly identified and shared its leadership's views.