Dealing with China in 2010

CDM

The author betrays his historical ignorance when he speaks of the Westphalian state system. That system was built on the principle that states ought not to interfere in the internal affairs of other states.

What is a demand for special treatment for foreign nationals if not interference in the domestic affairs of other states? If it were not so serious, the spectacle of those who would undoubtedly identify themselves as opponents of Western imperialism demanding the Chinese change their ways would be utterly laughable.

SUSAN HILL

None of your suggestions would have much clout. If they can`t get the European goods they want they'll find a way of making them and even if the carbon thing - let us call it by its proper name of CO2 so we don`t mix it up, as eco-fascists do, with Carbon as in soot - were not nonsense, the Chinese actually care not a jot about all of that. They pay lip service for their own ends -many of their scientists have poured scorn on the whole thing, which is the best thing one has heard about China for years.
We have actually almost no leverage against them - though I agree that the whole of Europe might cause them to falter in their marching stride for a moment. BUt how are you ever going to get the whole of Europe to agree about anything ?
When the Russian Bear was growling and prowling in the 60s and 70s a leading international scholar said 'never mind them too much. Look towards China, whence the real threat will come.' He was right. It soon will, if terrorist Islam doesn't get there first.

Vulture

It is indeed, as you say Mr Korski, 'time to face up to reality'.

The reality being that any sorrow over this Pakistani drug smuggler's very welcome assisted demise is confined to you and your ilk. As usual, the overwhelming majority of UK people hold a somewhat different view to the political class. In this case, that view is that China's way with drug dealers is admirable and should be applied here forthwith - thus clearing up at a stroke the vast majority of our crime and social malaise.

As it is, we shall have to wait before Sharia law is introduced before getting our way. But since you chaps are speeding that day too, we shouldn't have too long to wait.

As to Sino-Anglo relations, the reality is that nothing this pipsqueak nation says or does will make the slightest difference to Beijing, so your pompous pontificatons are so much wasted air. Cordially yours.

Bickers

Much as I agree with the thrust of your piece, China did us all a favour by stopping the Global Warming/Climate Change madness in Copenhagen, which is clearly based on dubious (CRU email scandal) and far from settled science.

There are so many opportunist politicians leading Europe and the US that it's easy for China to undermine them, as they're standing on thin moral ground.

When Europe acts undemocratically (Lisbon Treaty/Constitution) and sets about building the EUSSR without its citizens consent then China has a free pass to do almost anything it likes, and it will.

Pie

Face facts. China won't change its personality. It can only be stopped or controlled by economic or military strength. Only a properly right wing British government can compete. Any other type will make us subordinate to the growing super powers.

Taipei Exile

Let's get Catherine Ashton on the case. That ought to do it.

Wilhelm

Everyone should congratulate China on sorting out Britains criminals because Britains liberal judges sure cant do it.

wrnkled weasel

Best start learning Mandarin.

George J

You've been reading the Guardian again, Daniel. Most of the public reaction I've read to the execution of Akmal Shaikh was along the lines of, "Wow! I wish we could do that to our drug smugglers."

I'm sure most of those people would agree with your call for "a better use of Western assets in the same cold, calculating way that China acts." We do waste an awful lot of bullets.

Beer Moth

What anger?

The Chinese executed a convicted drug smuggler according to their law. What a ridiculous leap, to link this to some kind of problem with Chinese power.

Austin Barry

The 'anger' over China's despatch of the drug runner was almost entirely bogus hand-flapping by our ruling elite and busybody bleeding-heart pressure groups. Apart from an appreciation of China's robust penal system, and a certain perplexity about the criminal's 'British' status, I've not seen or heard anything that suggests anyone really cared.

Edward Sutherland

China will respect us as a nation when we are worthy of respect. The Chinese government and people, I imagine, will feel nothing but contempt for us in our current enfeebled state. As a nation we project neither military, political, economic or moral power. Address these manifest shortcomings and they might deign to recognise us.

Laughing Larry

Before you start your moral crusade can ask them to keep buying our Gilts?

Moraymint

I'm with the common sense brigade, ie I'm NOT with the politico-media intelligensia who think Akmal's execution was a "bad thing", per se.

It seems to me that the Chinese have a clear set of rules on this matter and applied them. Akmal knew that, but chose to ignore the conditions - at his peril. Oh, that our own political class ruled with such clarity.

Don't forget too that the majority of British people would like to see the reinstatement of capital punishment - much to the irritation of our political class.

Personally, I'm against capital punishment btw. However, for the UK to get all shirty about life in China is a bit rich ... given the ocean-going disaster that our own political class has made of running this country.

It's a bloody joke; our own politicians need to get their priorities right, methinks.

Verity

Vulture, as always, is correct. And so is Beer Moth.

Putting Britain's international reputation on the line for a Pakistani slime-ball drug smuggler only makes sense when one realises that in a lot of densely muslim populated areas of Britain, dozens of neighbourhood "uncles" - or postal-vote marshalls, as we might style them - will have been following this closely.

Having lived in Singapore, I am witness to the fact that Chinese pragmatism produces outstanding results. These people are awesome and I'm a fan.

I am baffled that Daniel Korski seriously seems to believe he is addressing people who agree with the liberal givens.

Verity

The Chinese have contempt for weakness, so I can imagine how they regard the unelected prime minister (in Brown's case, I don't capitalise the office) of Britain.

Another thing, Korski: the Anglosphere (after O'Barmy and the gurning, chattering Broon have been voted out), including the great nation of India, doesn't unite formally to provide a counter balance against China, we will all be dancing to their tune.

If we want to continue dancing to our own tune, we need to unite to form a legal entity. This way, we could have an equal partnership with them based on power and mutual respect.

I am a huge admirer of the Chinese. But it is better to be friends with them. They are a very clever race.

John Richardson

This utter rubbish is pristine MSM.

This is the kind of article that anyone with a brain or a mind has learnt to scroll down to read decent intelligent comments posted by thinking people below.

Once these articles would irritate or annoy me. Now they cheer me up as I see a widening gulf between these writers and the country as a whole.
This writing is surly reminiscent of 'Pravda' in the early eighties. Almost hysterically self deceiving. No longer bothering to pretend to even acknowledge real life.

Why ?
1) The majority in this country have always supported the death penalty.
2) Pakistanis holding 'New Labour Brit Passports', do not concern us. There is zero evidence they even concern Pakistanis.
3) No-one wants to interfere with the Chinese legal system even if they could.
4) The Euro solidarity to which you refer has never existed.
5) Lying 'Human Rights Activists' have long ago been sussed by the gen. pub. He was not insane.
6) To compare and contrast the media concern for a foreign smack dealer with our own two hostages to the Somali scum is liable to actually ferment civil disorder.A bad thing.

Korski.
Can you honestly claim that any in you immediate social circle NOY EMPLOYED IN THE NEDIA shares your twisted values ?
If so I am wrong.
I'll take that bet.

Rob

Though your initial comments show promise, I believe your second to last paragraph shows economic and political insight of an elementary school student.

1. Making travel more expensive and difficult for Chinese tourists hurts US more than them.

2. Our stores go empty when we try to "not buy" Chinese goods - almost everything is produced there. Remember what happened back when we tried that with textiles a few years ago?

PAUL GILBOY

You are clearly still on the Christmas sauce, asking us too endorse a hostile stance to China because they have exercised their sovereign rights, to stem the flow of drugs to their country. You must be completely ignorant of history; has no one told you of the opium wars that Britain waged against china to peddle opium to the Chinese people.

What moral stance can Britain make to China, when history tells them that the British are degenerate drug dealers?

Fearless Frank

"China cannot consider itself civilised," said one of our political pipsqueaks (can't remember which one) over the execution of a drug smuggler with a British passport - though why this particular execution among the hundreds they carry out annually should be decisive wasn't clear.
The west and the "world leading" nations show a deluded conceit when they talk about China not being quite ready to take its place at the top table.
They don't get it - China doesn't need or care about our approval. It can do what it likes.
Talking about executing drug dealers - the opium wars cast a long shadow.

Daniel Korski

CDM

You are right, the essence of the notion of sovereignty, in the Westphalian system is about control: the capacity to make decisions with regard to the people and resources within the territory of the state. But this principle was never so clear-cut and has become even more watered-down in recent times.

Not only are the overwhelming majority of today’s armed conflicts internal, not inter-state, but the proportion of civilians to military killed in them increased from about one in ten at the start of the 20th century to around nine in ten by its close. This has presented the international affairs with a major difficulty: how to reconcile the foundational principles of UN member states’ sovereignty and the accompanying UN mandate to maintain international peace and security (“to save succeeding generations from the scourge of...") with the aim to promote the interests and welfare of people within those states (“We the peoples of the United Nations”). As you know, the answer was the Responsibility To Protect, authored by Gareth Evans and others.

But though Responsibility to Protect included new language, it drew on historical traditions of interference and even legal rights that trump state's rights. Such ergo omnes obligations, for example in the case of genocide, are well-established in international jurisprudence. My point -- the Westphalian system, though based on the idea of state's sovereignty, always had many exceptions to the principle of non-interference and does entail responsibilities as well, though China and many other similar-minded nations would like to ignore that part of history.

Snowman

The times of the West calling the tune are over, Daniel. You better get used to it quick. The centre of wealth creation has begun shifting East with China turning into the engine that ‘s driving the transfer of economic might from the old world to the new. You’ve missed it, or just forgotten it? The Americans may still sit on the largest chunk of accumulated wealth, but it’s being increasingly thinned, just look at the size of the US IOU’s that China holds. A possible reversal? Don’t think so. Can you see any signs of either the Americans or the Europeans switching emphasis from consumption to accumulation of capital? Can they, anyway?

The Chinese display an entrepreneurial hunger not unlike that which brought immense wealth to America (and Europe prior to that) before redistribution rather than creation of it took hold. The only risk the Chinese may be exposed to is through the dichotomy of their economic model and their political set-up. If the country succeeds in seamlessly aligning the former with the latter, she will be unstoppable. Their labour resources dwarf those of either Europe or America without the baggage of pseudo-liberal manipulation. Her middle class layer, and more to the point, its university educated segment, are growing at a rate faster than that of any other developing country except perhaps that of India. Bar any unforeseen event disrupting the flow of capital, know-how and trade, China cannot but dominate this century.

To do anything that spoils our chances in participating in the relocation of the economic power base would be insane. On the contrary, we should do everything to mould our economy to that of China. And it wouldn’t’ come amiss if we looked at their common sense approach in areas other than economics, their stance on global warming, punishment of criminals amongst them.

(The family and friends of Mr. Shaikh should have our sympathy, but sadly, it was the guy’s conscious decision to get involved in an act of smuggling the Chinese punish by death).

Wrnkled weasel suggestion’s top notch. You have any children or grandchildren? Get them a nanny speaking Mandarin, it’s the best investment on their behalf one can currently make.

Coeur de Lion

What was Akmal doing in China? Tourism?

David Lindsay

As Copenhagen illustrated, what China doesn't want doesn't happen, and to hell with the mere President of the United States. This is the Chinese Century. Will that be so bad? China still makes things, builds things, mines things. She still puts the jobs, heat and light of her people first.

She is emerging from the gangster capitalism that always follows Communism by returning to her own culture, which is firmly centred on the family and the local community, reveres tradition and ritual, upholds government by moral rather than physical force, affirms the Golden Rule, is Agrarian and Distributist, has barely started an external war in five thousand years, and is especially open to completion by, in, through and as classical Christianity.

And she takes Africa seriously, even going there to secure the food supply necessary for her to give up the extremely anti-Confucian one child policy.

So a very warm welcome indeed to the Chinese Century. We, too, need to get back to making things, building things and mining things. To prioritising jobs, heat and light. To the family and the local community. To tradition and ritual. To moral rather than physical force. To the Golden Rule. To Agrarianism and Distributism. To a pronounced aversion to war. To the classical Christianity that completes and transcends Confucianism, in no way destroying it. To a very Classical and Patristic openness to, and interest in, Africa. And to the glorious celebration of the fact that the very last thing wrong with the world is that it has people in it.

Nicholas

Too late. Should have told them to take a running jump in 1997 and embarked on re-armament with a huge navy and the best aircraft carriers in the world.

Publius

Verity writes:
"I am baffled that Daniel Korski seriously seems to believe he is addressing people who agree with the liberal givens."

-- He doesn't. It's just baiting, which some gormless twit has persuaded Mr Korski is the same as good journalism. Plus, of course, he despises Speccie readers.

Verity

Snowman, you are right. The Chinese are outstanding managers of money. They are energetic and brilliant at it. (This goes for Chinese women as well, btw. They are outstandingly successful entrepreneurs.) What is more, wherever the Chinese have settled, that area becomes successful through their enterprise and pragmatism. Malaysia owes a tremendous debt to the Straits Chinese.

I agree with David Lindsay: a very warm welcome to the Chinese as an important international actor. At the same time, I have suggested that the Anglosphere gets itself formalized in some way to provide the weight and balance to ensure that we retain our place at the top table. The Anglosphere, of course, includes the brilliant nation of India. Gosh, we live in exciting times! I love it!

Daniel Korski, do not quote the UN at me. The UN and the long outdated premises on which it was created, is now a large part of the problem. It should be disbanded.

(What’s “too late”, Nicholas. There was no reference in your post.)

thomas

For your information Mr. Korski the British public does not give a stuff what Europe does about anything, we care about our own laws and our own problems.

Secondly we are all somewhere on a scale between ambivalence and satisfaction about the execution of a Pakistani drug dealer with a Bristish passport.

Now why don't you spin some more fantasies about the Euro-amy that will never be?

logdon

He wasn't even British so why are we defending this POS, proven criminal?

Because he was that protected species, a Muslim with attendant bloc votes and the constant threat of another bombing in our own back yard?

The hubris of his family post execution was quite revealing, accusing the Chinese of arrogance and an inhumane attitude. Now where have we witnessed that before?

Are the jihad executions, on camera with a helpless squirming victim paraded like a piece of meat supposed to be civilised?

Maybe now they know how it feels and maybe now , dealing with the grown ups they'll realise that all law is not hollow sham to be perverted by whining and threat.

And where were the records proving his insanity?

They’re never guilty are they? Always some ploy or excuse.

Reading the news blog accounts and corresponding reader comment we are clued up. Not much sympathy for the dead clown who thought China was as soft a touch as Britain.

The clueless ones are the ones in power until May.

Upsetting China over this piece of trash has to rank as El-Braun’s final touch to the masterpiece he and Man/Boy Miliband have been working on all year.

His next one is scanners at all airports, scanning everyone until some Burqa bint creates a huge fuss about her human rights and it all falls apart.

Watch this space.

By the way, Happy New Year to the erudite and informed regulars on this blog who never fail to elucidate, amuse and have held my very own insanity at bay for the past year.

Verity

Thomas says, referring to the commentariat here: "... we are all somewhere on a scale between ambivalence and satisfaction about the execution of a Pakistani drug dealer with a Bristish passport."

Put me down for the "Satisfied" column.

Dan Boston

It's a bit late to start thinking about what we should or could hold back fron China, they have been stripping out the west's manufacturing, mining, shipping and communications interests over the last 15 years (not to mention doller reserves) and we have blindley let them go in the name of globalistion and competition. China now hold most of the aces and the west will be singing to their tune in the coming decades.

Verity

Frankly, Dan Boston, not a bad tune. Family values, steady loyalties, mind-boggling pragmatism and the ability to create a plan and see it through.

Something else, if China were the top nation, there would be no islamic terrorism in the skies. None. Zip. Nada.

logdon

Obama at Copenhagen to China.

You must open up to international inspectors.

China at Copenhagen to Obama.

Remind us again, when do we get our trillion back?

Obama, on flight home.

Shit!

David Lindsay

Verity, there is no Anglosphere. There is the Commonwealth, especially those parts retaining the monarchy. And then there is the US. Two completely different things. Completely.

MaxSceptic

I don't like China: the country, its politics or its culture. (And yes, I've been there - numerous times).

China is, however, a sovereign country - which is why we owe them our eternal thanks for torpedoing the folly of Copenhagen.

Like China, I am also a supporter of capital punishment.

So, at a time when here in the UK a hoodlum with over 50 convictions is allowed to walk the streets and terrorise people in their homes, China rigorously follows its own penal code and executes a convicted drug smuggler caught with 4Kg of heroin.

(And I doubt that in China anyone is ever allowed to accumulate a criminal record of 50 convictions, let alone be freed to walk the streets and commit more...)

I can only sit back and observe the impotent bleating of our politicians and other 'progressives' who rushed to the media condemn those cruel, nasty Chinese, and offer 'sincere condolences' to the family of a drug smuggler... on the very day when 3 more dead bodies of our troops were solemnly saluted as they pass slowly through the streets of Wootton Bassett.

So long as we remain morally bankrupt and have the political and economic backbone of a jellyfish then we (with or without the supine EU) have about as much leverage on China as a eunuch has of procreating.

Noa Zrk

"...what about making travel by Chinese tourists to Europe a bit harder and more expensive?...".
So that's why Brown is mumbling about full body scanners in UK Airports? To harass Chinese grannies?

Verity

Not so, David Lindsay. Read James Bennett's 'The Anglosphere'. American law, except in Louisiana, is based on English Common Law. The language is English. English principles of justice prevail (everywhere in the Anglosphere except in England and, in some instances, in Canada. Ask Mark Steyn.). Even discounting a common language, which is a pretty large element to discount, the United States has a lot in common with India and Oz, as in Common Law, for one.

Central and S America (save Brazil) will probably one day form a giant bloc with Spain based on nothing more than a shared language and history of being conquered by the Spanish and therefore having similar traditions and values.

What I have suggested in the past, David Lindsay, is, we dump the United Nations, or let anyone who wants it have it, who cares? and form a loose, though formal, series of treaties with the other Anglophone countries. I think most of us feel we have more in common with our Kiwi cousins than with the Belgians or the Bulgarians.

daifromwales

Quote:
"Daniel Korski is a senior fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations. Formerly, he worked for the Department for International Development, on secondment to the US State Department, and for the House of Commons Defence Select Committee"

I don't know about the rest of the Speccie readers - but the above text scares me. Does he really believe that Britain's support for a "Briton"(sic) running drugs into China will do anything apart from arouse vague feelings of contempt from the Chinese? For them, it's a bit like being insulted by next door's pet dog - and woe betide us if they idly kick the annoying little thing.

Paul T Horgan

I too have little sympathy for the execution of a heroin smuggler, especially by a country that suffered the Opium Wars of a national of the other belligerent. The painful history left scant opportunity for mercy.

However we all know that no Brit in his right mind would smuggle heroin into China, so therefore this chap must have been well out of his, which clearly was not taken into consideration by the Chinese.

The media could have started the campaign for commuting his sentence a bit sooner than two days beforehand. Or was there some 'quiet diplomacy' going on? If there was then it clearly was a tad too quiet.

Verity

daif from wales: "Does he really believe that Britain's support for a "Briton"(sic) running drugs into China will do anything apart from arouse vague feelings of contempt from the Chinese?"

No. He doesn't. And he is too stupid to give a crap. The audience this performance was aimed at was not the Chinese, but closer to home at the tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of illegal postal voters from Pakistan whose envelopes are collected and marked for them by the neighbourhood "uncle", or vote marshall.

This was all for the Pakistani audience inexplicably in the midst of our green and pleasant land.

mandeville

Korski's article must the most fatuous I've seen on the web. Printed newspaper sales are falling day by day because readers are looking for more "in touch" articles in the blogshere, then low and behold this cringingly sycophantic article appears.
Where do I go now?

JohnBUK

Have we learnt nothing? Am I right in thinking China has weapons of mass destruction? Can they be launched in under 45 minutes? Have they not killed one of our esteemed countrymen contrary to British and EUSSR law? Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
See you in Beijing.

Edmund Jerk

The Chinese are callous bastards for executing him - regardless of whether he was mentally retarded or not, execution for drug smuggling is beyond the pale - but what are we going to do about it, send Milliband - or better yet Comrade Blair! - to go over and threaten the Chinese with a block on their imports? Dream on. We're all coolies now.

David Lindsay

No, Verity, the language thing is little more than an accident, there has been extremely little migration to America from this side of the Irish Sea since before independence, and in fact the single largest bloc among white Americans is German, as in fact many phrases in American English bear witness, being verbatim translations from German.

Black Americns are actually more likely to be of British descent than are white Americans. But they are not even America's largest minority now, having been supplanted by the Hispanics.

The Americans have no especial concern for us, and why should they have? But we reamain oddly preoccupied with them. I honestly have no idea why - they treat us like dirt a lot of the time, and certainly not as anything special the rest of it. But then, why should it be different?

There are these islands and the Commonwealth, especially the countries retaining the monarchy. And then there is everywhere else. Including America.

John Richardson

Verity.

Are you suggesting that the (politically) alien Asian block vote could swing to the Conservatives ?
There was zero public 'Asian Community' support for the failed smack smuggler.

Even the thickest 'Community Leader' knows
Nu Lab will give them even more of our money than any other Government.

This accusation of yours is ill thought out.
It maligns the people you refer to and that is an incredible achievement.
Unintelligent at best.

David Lindsay

John Richardson, in several areas Asian Labour Councillors have already crossed to the Tories for specifically ethno-sectional reasons, and have been welcomed with open arms.

It was David Cameron whose vehicles toured Ealing Southall blasting out in Asian languages that Hindu, Muslim and Sikh festivals would be made public holidays under the Tories. It was his “Quality of Life Commission” then proposed giving the power to decide these things to “local community leaders”. What else would those figures be given the power to decide in return for filling in every postal voting form in their households in the Bullingdon Boys’ interest, and making sure that all their mates did likewise?

To the statelets thus created – little Caliphates, little Hindutvas, little Khalistans, and so on – people minded to live in such places would flock from the ends of the earth, entrenching the situation for ever.

Amadeus Plonquer

Greetings from snowy Beijing. Let me just start off by saying that this article is a load of utter tosh. The author has obviously never lived, worked or probably even visited China - and it shows.

Reading other open commentary blogs in the UK over the last week shows an overwhelming support for harsher treatment of drug peddlers than the UK 'government' (thats a laugh) provides.

I think the UK would be better served figuring out how to rise above China in industry and trade rather than the old socialist trick of trying to drag everyone else down to their own pathetic level.

Amadeus Plonquer

Verity said: if China were the top nation, there would be no islamic terrorism in the skies. None. Zip. Nada.

This is so true. Last year I witnessed an event where passengers en masse refused to boar a plane leaving Xian until a moslem was removed. The poor sucker was ejected and told to take a train. The Chinese may copy many of our societal trends. But political correctness is NOT one of them.

Verity

John Richardson ... I am baffled. You seem to be highly strung and not altogether coherent. I have absolutely no idea what you are writing about.

David Lindsay - So what? You haven't destroyed my point - or even argued it. No matter our differences, there is a vast Anglosphere tied together not just by language, but by Anglo Saxon Common Law.

Jeff

Hmmm, the following conversation was recorded between the Chinese president Hu Jintao and the American president Barack Obama:

Hu, "Hey Barack, I am examining your latest loan application, but I am distracted by a barking poodle in my yard. It appears to be yours."

Obama, "sorry about that. I will shut it up asap."

Hu, "thanks, and while you are at it, tell it not to sneak class-A drugs into my country."

Obama, "will do."

T in China

Erm a few things

Support the death penalty or not, I'm not sure drug smuggling warrants death in a civilized society. Lengthy imprisonment in an austere prison - sure. Law should not just be about deterrence but about proportionate retribution.

The guy was clearly guilty but his 'trial' was a disgrace. All you sinophiles should remember that even the guilty deserve a robustly fair trial.

What Daniel has got absolutely right is the
hypocrisy China displays on the international stage at the mo. There's still an annoying strain of paranoia at the top about Western intentions towards China. They're not yet acting in the way a responsible great power should. Good thing though: new century will have more than one great power, more than two.

Yes, the opium wars were bad but the Chinese are always looking to play the victim as a distraction from the fact that China's woes in the 20th Century have been almost always entirely inflicted by other Chinese.

Geoff Miller

If you look at peoples comments on the execution of the Pakistani Drug trafficker in most papers you will see there is little sympathy for him.

Labour however has jeopardised our relationship with China over this man - and yet stands aside when true Brits are kidnapped and murdered around the world.

It's all so bad that you can but conclude that we are being ruled by the most stupid of people.

We need not openly to vote Labour out but engage in a systematic overhaul of the electoral system, stop Labours postal voting frauds, clear out the civil Service, Public Sector and Quango's of all Socialist/Marxist/Communist influence.

TomTom

It would obviously be wrong to end all UK-China links over Akmal Shaikh’s execution.

Aha. The 'British' return importing drugs into China ! Even the Subcontinent link to Britain's shameful historical precedent is maintained ! And a British Government backing up the trader as if the Colonial Master was going to punish China for insolence....it is farcical beyond parody

JohnBUK

T in China "Law should not just be about deterrence but about proportionate retribution".

Well it seems even execution didn't "deter" this chap. Perhaps he was so concerned about the promised rewards he didn't think of anyone else not even himself!!
We disagree on the death penalty but I'm afraid the law doesn't represent justice in the UK by a mile.

Malfleur

There is a good case for a blog on China, but Mr. Korski's is not the right one. Setting aside some of the saccharine and partial views of China in this thread for the moment, I have to agree with Verity when she says that the Labour government's talking up of this case was cynically calculated for domestic political gain among its constituency of muslims and bleeding hearts after a decision that any damage to Anglo-Sino relations was a price worth paying for electoral advantage.

If the Labour Party were not ideologically bankrupt, it would have chosen instead to speak out in strong terms following the sentencing of Mr. Liu XiaoBo on Christmas Day for subverting the power of the Chinese state, something which mutatis mutandis Coffee Housers are calling for in England on this site in increasing numbers without any sign so farthat any of you among the latter have fallen foul of our police or courts. Mr. Liu's method of subverting state power, which is one also debated here as an alternative in our country to a violent uprising by the British people which some of you have also called for from time to time without untoward consequences, was a declaration calling for political reform, greater human rights, and an end to one-party rule in China.

Tsk! Tsk!

Ah, well, two years porridge in a Chinese gaol - and after all he's had plenty of practice - no problem, But wait a minute - AND two years deprivation of political rights! - going a bit far there, chaps.

Now, if Brown had made a fuss about Mr. Liu's punishment, he would have been accused of interfering in China's internal affairs. If, however, he were not ideologically bankrupt, he would have taken the stand that, in the absence of the Soviet Union which gave so many of our Labour politicians their start, China is now the fatherland of the working class and every Labour politician and voter thus turns to that country as a fount of justice and so must raise its voice in Mr. Liu's defence where an obvious aberration in the Chinese justice system has occurred, etc. etc.

Meanwhile, some of our Coffee Housers seem to be edging towards an apology for the Opium Wars. Perhaps Brown might remove the burden from their hearts and apologize for them and for us all for that misconceived attempt to introduce China to the Industrilal Revolution 140 odd years before they were ready for it.

Before that apology though can we have an apology from the Chinese government for the murder of Ming Ming which hurt the feelings of the British people as perhaps no other act of the Chinese Communist Party has ever done?

Don't tell me Coffee Housers that you have forgotten Ming Ming so soon?

Meanwhile in Hong Kong, though not in orderly Singapore, thousands of disorderly rabble took to the streets on 1st January to demand universal suffrage... Let's hope that Ming Ming did not die in vain.

logdon

When in China do as the Chinese do.

Because Britain and the EU seem hellbent on abandoning statehood and states which reflect the wishes of the majority, why should China adopt this lemming philosophy?

Rather than kowtowing to some seventh century desert religion which has nothing at all in common with the mass views of the indigenous populace, they preserve their own integrity.

And China is the repressive, undemocratic regime?

Nicholas

Verity: (What’s “too late”, Nicholas. There was no reference in your post.)

Too late to take a stand. We lost the face to do that when we cravenly handed Hong Kong to Red China in 1997. Kowloon peninsula and Victoria Island were ceded to Britain "in perpetuity". Only Kowloon north of Boundary Street and the New Territories were subject to the 1997 lease. When the terms of the treaty were put to Red China they refused to recognise the treaty - so why was 1997 an issue? If you don't recognise a treaty as legitimate the dates specified in it are irrelevant.

Red China got their cake and ate it and were able to piggy-back their communist capitalism on Hong Kong as gateway to the West. We gave away a whole vibrant, successful community in the process of democratic development that we were responsible for to a totalitarian, communist regime. The British behaved STUPIDLY and without strength, giving up a prize that the Americans had exploited more successfully than they had. Britain's post-war, defeatist, anti-colonial, parochial, leftist and craven stance has been the subject of derision or apology since 1945. The USA determined that we alone should lose our Empire after WWII (Hawaii, ha!) and fleeced us to the point of being unable to sustain it.

We should have emulated the Americans and made Hong Kong a county of England, more effectively regulated immigration (which we are incapable of - drowning our territories in uncontrolled immigrants of the worst kind) and told Red China to go take a running jump. They would not have dared walk in. They haven't done it to US-abandoned Taiwan.

We make the wrong allies, the wrong friends and the wrong choices. But then I am an unapologetic Imperialist - I think Pax Britannica was good for the world and certainly better than what we have now.

Verity

John Richardson - Are? you? kidding?

There is no way the "Asian vote" - and how despicable that we imported this vote; it's not even home grown - would go to the Tories. You misread my post.

Nicholas - You are correct. We should have made HK a British county, as the Americans made Hawaii and Alaska states, to make sure the world understood that they were in the fold and not alone. Very far-sighted and astute.

Malfleur

Correction Mr. Liu XiaoBo's sentence on Christmas Day for publishing a call for constitutional reform (Charter 08) was eleven years imprisonment and two years' deprivation of 'political rights'.

Jeff

"Engagement with China is non-negotiable and any alternative strategy is simply not credible. But by being so clear in our public criticism of China's handling of this case we are demonstrating that it is not business as usual."

Those words were uttered by the British foreign ministry, in its comments about UK-China relations in the immediate aftermath of Akmal's expiration.

So move on... move on. In case you haven't noticed, the UK is not exactly a country of much significance to the Chinese these days, and your collective ability to change this fact is rather limited, nay, close to nil.

Recognizing this fact is the first step toward recovery, err, I mean a realistic foreign policy toward China.

kchan

The world is full of drug traffickers, one less doesn't matter. Uk and those countries who are lenient to drug trafficking, ought to thank countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, China and the other Asian countries who execute them. Find some other excuse to gain political points Gordon. The poppy cultivations in Afganistan and distribution of opium were originally supported by the British, were they not. How soon we forget. Is there a brotherhood here?

JohnAnt

I've just seen the BBC report that the family (and Stafford Smith) are calling for a coroner's inquest "so that some of our questions can be answered, and the terrible mysteries surrounding my brother's apparent death, 7,000 miles from his family and all alone, can be resolved for us." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8438522.stm
Stafford Smith 'said an inquest would give the family a "crucial insight" into Mr Shaikh's final hours.'

Eh?? What's this about? I've never heard of executed criminals getting a coroner's inquest, or the family getting the body back. Unless they're just trying to rile the Chinese, it seems rather a pointless demand.
Or are they implying he wasn't executed and has been chucked in gaol?

Steve in Beijing

For those who "love China" and are admirer of their way of doing business, just come in China and try to leave here for a while - then start talking. I dunno a lot of Brit' who can stand live in China for more than a couple of years... except if u came for the cheap fake alcohol and the easy stupid girls - but is that still business or culture heh?
Steve.

Bored in Shanghai

And to the Chinese here who are bleating on about the British importing Opium into China 150 years ago, have you forgotten how Mao funded the Red Army when based in Yenan?

Yes, he did so by growing & marketing opium to areas outside his control.

Before you start quoting a historical backdrop (should that be histerical?) to your reactions, try to remember that not all of China's opium-related history was down to evil colonising Brits.

Kennybhoy

Verity wrote:

"Gosh, we live in exciting times! I love it!"

Amen! LOL!

"May you live in interesting times."
Ancient Chinese Curse(Alleged)

And by way of contrast, a Judaeo-Christian benediction.

"May God deny you peace but grant you glory."
Miguel De Unamuno