CoffeeHousers' Wall January 4th - January 10th 

Nicholas

"Naturally conservative voters", disdainful of Dave, will not vote Tory because of it and instead facilitate the risk of another term of New Labour?

With friends like that who needs enemies? Looks like the "naturally conservative voters" are going to screw up the chance for a Conservative government after 13 years of New Labour on the basis of some pathetic "Ya-Boo!" spite.

"Oh, woe are we! Dave is not our ideal of a Churchillian/Thatcherian leader so we are going to throw our toys out of our pram and bang our little fists and scream and scream and scream!"

Idiots. Like hostages complaining that the special forces who rescued them spoke to them roughly.

Verity

TGF UKIP must be feeling quite chuffed now that Hilton's been outed. That Cameron is taking his orders from this man beggars belief. Pathetic and greedy for power.

I am still hoping for a hung Parliament and a new Leader installed.

Derek

The Wall's preamble carries a standing invitation to us to invite the Spectator to write on specific topics. Last week, for the second time I suggested that the magazine's writers might be sent from time to time to our northern cities to report on what they find. I myself would particularly be interested in a series of reports on the nature and effect of the muslimisation of these cities, if indeed that has occurred to the extent that some people suggest.

But a series of on the spot dispatches on any aspect of that "here be dragons" territory for our "provincial metropolitans" (pace General Zod) would make welcome reading either in the magazine itself or on a thread in these blogs.

It came as no surprise however to find that Melanie Phillips is the first of the Spectator writers to be commissioned in this fashion, albeit by the BBC rather than our editor and her article published in today's Daily Mail, rather than in our magazine. Her piece focuses on her personal look at unemployment especially in the area near Blyth in Northumberland.

If conservatives expect to build their fortunes north of London, their writers should get up there, use their eyes and ears, and start reporting back.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

The degenerate Islamic Anjam Choudary, head of Islam4UK, is planning a march through |Wootton Bassett, wiyth empty coffins. His plans to pollute this little town, truly a National treasure in the cesspool the UK is bevoming, have even brought forth a remark from Brown, that it is not fitting. Thsi scum of an Islamist, stated that if he had selected another place, the media would not have jumped on it. The son-of-a-pariah-dog is correct. The UK citizens are the most apathetic people around. They allow these swine to literally defeceate upon thgem. Can one see any Moslem country allowing a procession of cross-bearing Christians or Jews carrying the Magen David? Bown has at last muttere4d something. Now, we await if Cameron has the bottle to stand up to the enemy within. Speak out Cameron! !

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Apologies for typographical errors - I am so upset at what indignities are allowed, so please excuse me.

London Calling

I find it very disturbing that Anjem Choudary,of Islam4UK, has chosen Wootton Bassett to march five hundred members with empty coffins to highlight the deaths of Muslims in Afghanistan, for which Anjem Choudary said he chose the town to attract publicity. Many UK Muslims have voiced opposition to this march should it take place on the basis that Islam4UK do not represent Islam. The question I would ask is who does? The silent peaceful moderates or the extremists? The silence is deafening.

Whilst watching Sunni Muslims blow up Shia Muslims and visa versa on our television screens in Pakistan and elsewhere its hard to understand who actually represents Islam. I would have respected a march through Bradford or any other area in the UK that has a large population of Muslims to highlight the Internal battle between fellow Muslims against each other first and foremost, the death of innocents
within and beyond. I would respect the Muslim Council of Britain if they were more vocal regarding the truth, not the publicity of Islam4UK inWootton Bassett to promote propaganda for the extremist cause.

It is deeply offensive to the families of the fallen and the community of Wootton Bassett to be used as a publicity stunt in this way. Its only purpose is to ignite community division, gather more followers of hate and slander the good name of moderate Muslims who no doubt be targeted in any backlash.

Noa Zrk

Nicholas.
"My party right or wrong" will not win an election for the Conservatives. Neither will a leader whose stated policies are virtually indistinguishable from those of the current incompetent government.
You don't hold the keys to the safe containing the enshrined commandments of 'new' conserativism so personally abusing those who don't share your views on this won't win the Conservative any votes either.

Alun Reynolds

Anne, I heard about this on Sunday and listened to this odious little man this morning on the Today program.
Mind you I know what the Wootton Bassett people will do if he does run his little show there. They will quietly close their doors, close their curtains and, if they are out and about on their business, they will quitely turn their backs on the scum.
Aparently though, the local constabulary and council are unlikely to allow the parade.

AndyinBrum

AWK if a bunch of religious eyjits want to march down a street in this temperature wanting to make a political statement, then so be it.

Me I wouldnt give them an iota of coverage and hence not give them any oxygen of publicity.

Instead we'll ahve an over the top hysterical overreaction from a number of drama queens, both in the press and on the blogosphere giving these nutjobs exactly what they want

wrinkled weasel

Will the predicted collapse of the Euro save Brown?

The news today is that business is booming for manufacturers, and especially since the weakness of the pound is attracting a lot of overseas money.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown was not enthusiastic about joining the Euro when, back in June 2003 he declared we were not ready for the Euro. He gave us the famous five tests, which I am not going to repeat here, since they were so subject to interpretation and spin as to be meaningless. Nevertheless, Brown, at this point, was against it. There then came a hint, in December 2008 that Brown was wavering: "Desperate Gordon Brown eyes the Euro" screamed the Guardian. Typically, Brown has wavered over the issue, and perhaps it is his dithering that has saved us all in general, and him in particular.

Peter Obourne is in Grim Reaper mode over at the Observer with this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/03/peter-oborne-end-of-eurozone

Oborne writes:

Consider the facts. In Spain, unemployment has already reached a gut-wrenching 19.3%. But unemployment for those between 16-24 is a catastrophic 42%. In Greece, youth unemployment is 25%, in Ireland 28.4% and Italy 26.9%. Marginal eurozone countries such as Greece, Spain and Ireland are not just in recession. They are in depression – and so long as they remain inside the euro there is no exit.

These stats put our problems into another perspective, do they not? Perhaps not surprisingly Europeans are taking full advantage of the devaluation of the pound to buy up our products and services. Obourne believes that, "The European single currency amounts to an experiment in social and economic engineering on a scale only very rarely before encountered in world history."

istockAnalyst's story on Saturday was entitled: Will The Euro Become The Most Hated Currency For 2010?

The writer paraphrases Milton Friedman: A one-size fits all monetary policy doesn't give the member countries the flexibility needed to stimulate their economies.

If tthe Obourne quote is not an exaggeration, and you believe Friedman, it would appear there is a prima facie case for Brown to have an awful lot of leeway. It may only be the kind that allows him to dither a bit more, but he can sit and dither while Rome burns.

AndyinBrum

Here's a question for one and all.

Is it heroic to stand on a land mine, or be hit by a roadside bomb, in the course of your normal duties, or is it just unfortunate?

I just ask as we appear to be cheapening the phrase of herorism to make ourselves feel better about our troops getting injured doing stuff that is bog standard, ie patrolling, driving trucks, whilst the ones doing the real heroic stuff, bomb disposal, rescuing injured comrades etc.

This does not mean I'm not all for Help the Heroes and actively help fundraising for the British Legion, I just think we're losing sight of what is heroic and what is just plain gutwrenching, heart breaking bad luck.

David Ossitt

We; who frequent the Coffee House are possibly guilty of neglect; one of our number, is possibly, having a nervous break down, and so far, his cries for help appear to have fallen on deaf ears.

phil January 4th 12:09pm,

In his reply to Amanda in America, at Rod Liddle 27th December. Another Islamist succeeds only in burning his balls. wrote:-
“You ply the same lonely road as me -You pour out your heart and use your brain, show compassion for all human beings, and then as usual here you are ignored ,at least by most who only wish to see what they have written themselves ,Nasty left wing emissions abound and they are responded to ,but thoughts like you have just fade into the background .I am beginning to realise it is all pretty pointless” (sic)

This poor chap is obviously suffering; he is feeling unloved, undervalued, ignored, but it gets worse.

On Coffee House Wall 28th December to 3rd January, in his harrowing reply to the excellent Anne Wotana Kaye 1, he wrote:-

“thank you, you are one of the few ,a little while ago I wrote on rod liddles thread about the problems of the feral youth and what he had written about black kids -I proposed a solution to do with youth clubs and asked for help at least with words -what happened here nothing !!! not even an insult” (sic)

phil is in his own words is lonely, his compassionate words are being ignored, his intellect and kindness go unacknowledged.

I do hope that my brief missive; shows phil, that somebody else has read his posts and has taken the trouble to make a comment.

oldtimer

For Climategate watchers, it appearss that
Viscount Monckton has written to Kevin Rudd, the Australian PM, offering him a personal 30 minute briefing on the errors of his ways re AGW. He also lists the 100+ Australian delegates who accompanied Rudd to the recent Copenhagen conference. Perhaps any interested Australian visitors can keep us posted about progress on this one.

I have tried the link to the Whatsup site, but the Spectator seems to have a block on this particular site.

Cuffleyburgers

Re the Tories - Nicolas is right; Cameron may not be espousing exactly the policies we would like, but objectively it is insane to risk another 5 years of Brown's gloating incompetent spiteful socialism by making some sort of toys-out-of-the-pram gesture such as voting for UKIP instead.

Re Wootton Bassett march by towel heads - it would be foolish and counter-productive to ban this. Far better to let it go ahead and cmpletely ignore it. By carrying out this insulting act they will do themselves more harm than good. Decent muslims will be repulsed and embarassed. The rest of us will be reminded how hateful the violent (presumably) minority are.

At the same time it might be a convenient moment to re-run the danish cartoons in a tabloid newspaper - just as a contribution to the debate of course.

Verity

Monkton is absolutely superb. And he speaks extemporaneously.

Tom Pride

Andy , surely it takes courage to go out on patrol knowing that each step you take might mean your death or the loss of your legs and /or arms and / or sight and / or genitals? To see that happen to a comrade and go out again the next day . . . not a bog standard job. Guts – every last one of them.

James Strong

Of course Islam4UK should be free to march;we are a free country and we allow,and I welcome,peaceful demonstrations.
But not incitement to violence.

This is not a pleasant decision to take, but let's not think it is a diificult decision.It's an easy one.

Yes, the proposed march would be offensive to many but there is no right not to be offended.

I also disagree with the comment above that no publicity should be given to the march.
I've watched and listened to Anjem Choudray for a couple of years;I would run his speecehes as advertisements with just the subtitle,'This is really what he said, we haven't changed a word of it, make up your own minds.'

I'd like to see such an ad run in cinemas up and down the country.

Let people know the truth about what Islam4UK advocates.

Tiberius

A very good post, Nicholas.

The votes gained from the Centre will outweigh the votes lost to the UKIPPERS, a key effect in the marginals. William Hague's leadership was an example of what happens if you don't court the Centre.

I read Heffer recently screaming about Cameron's comment that the Tories were like the LibDems. He signally failed to acknowledge (perhaps he hasn't worked it out) that it is the LibDem vote Cameron seeks in order to win the Election.

Of course Cameron could take the advice of many posters and journos on here and move along the spectrum towards shock and awe. But he knows that if he did that, he'd lose more votes than he'd gain. Thank goodness he knows this, because the UKIPPERS certainly don't.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

AndyinBrum: I read your posting very carefully. Andy, when dealing with normal people whom one does not agree with, then your advice of ignoring them makes good sense. But I am old enough to recall the rise of Hitler, and I remember the jokes, the mockery and the funny walks and moustaches. Whilst the world was acting the fool, laughing at Hitler or simply ignoringf him, the man didn't go away, instead his power grew and eventually he was master of large segments of Europe. If we as civilised people decide to ignore the indecency of this Islamic movement, they will decend to even worse outrages against our norms and ethos, until one day we will find they are in power and hold the reins of control. I am not being a drama queen, I wish I were, but these are not naughty children wanting attention. They are a dangerous element, equal to the Taliban as a force with both feet on British soil. If we don't take car they will have our throats under those marching feet.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

AndyinBrum: I read your posting very carefully. Andy, when dealing with normal people whom one does not agree with, then your advice of ignoring them makes good sense. But I am old enough to recall the rise of Hitler, and I remember the jokes, the mockery and the funny walks and moustaches. Whilst the world was acting the fool, laughing at Hitler or simply ignoringf him, the man didn't go away, instead his power grew and eventually he was master of large segments of Europe. If we as civilised people decide to ignore the indecency of this Islamic movement, they will decend to even worse outrages against our norms and ethos, until one day we will find they are in power and hold the reins of control. I am not being a drama queen, I wish I were, but these are not naughty children wanting attention. They are a dangerous element, equal to the Taliban as a force with both feet on British soil. If we don't take car they will have our throats under those marching feet.

Rachael

The Brussels Journal has syndicated this to the The Daily Mail.

It is time for the West to open its eyes to 'the true faith of Islam'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1240485/It-time-West-open-eyes-true-faith-Islam.html

An excellent piece but why are there not more homegrown writers doing this sort of thing?

Is it because of the sheer expense of writing on this subject?

See Melanie Phillips here:

'The courts are being used by Arabs and radical Muslims to shut down discussion of Islamic terrorism or extremism.

'In what appears to be a co-ordinated campaign - aided and abetted by certain English law firms - writers who draw attention to suspected terrorism networks or extremist statements find themselves promptly served with a writ for libel.

'The fact that the grounds for such lawsuits are often preposterous is all but irrelevant given the intimidatory effect of the apparently bottomless pockets behind them.

'Such 'libel tourism' is proving a chilling weapon in the armoury of those who are waging Islamic holy war.

'It is also turning Britain into an international pariah as the country whose courts are now the most hospitable in the world to attempts to stifle discussion of Islamic extremism.

'In one infamous case, U.S. author Rachel Ehrenfeld was sued for libel in Britain over her book Funding Evil about the Islamic terrorist money trail.

'Her book was not even published in the UK. But 23 copies sold over the internet which were shipped to Britain opened her up to a libel suit, in which she was ordered to pay £130,000 in costs and damages.

'This case has led a number of U.S. states to pass a special law to prevent English libel judgments from being applied to books published in the U.S.

'Britain has now become the global centre for this kind of legal censorship over a growing range of issues. The rich and powerful flock from all over the world to use its courts to stifle scrutiny of their affairs.

'And, by definition, the public are unaware of such suppression since, because of the risk of libel, no one can tell them what it is they are not being allowed to know.

'The result is that there are increasing occasions where rogues, malefactors and incompetents are getting away with extremism, negligence or other bad deeds without any public scrutiny at all.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1237392/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-Death-free-speech-Is-Britain-censorship-capital-world.html

And Fraser Nelson here:

'Investigating or writing about Islamic terrorism (which we do, on a point of principle) is perhaps the single most expensive thing that a UK publication can do (more than war reporting) because you can be guaranteed that lawsuits will follow. Even spurious claims can often get a settlement, because the process of engagement is so costly for the magazine or newspaper – and often no-win-no-fee means the complainant faces no outlay at all. We can even be sued for linking to overseas websites, or sued for a comment on a website.'

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5665301/what-you-wont-read-about-terrorism-in-britain.thtml

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

online?

David Ossitt

AndyinBrum

“Here's a question for one and all. Is it heroic to stand on a land mine, or be hit by a roadside bomb, in the course of your normal duties, or is it just unfortunate?
I just ask as we appear to be cheapening the phrase of herorism(sic)to make ourselves feel better about our troops getting injured”

The answer to your question is no, it is not heroic, it is unfortunate.

And yes the word ‘heroism’ is being cheapened and misused, but not by the military not by the public, not by the families, or the bereaved, but by a lesser man, a grey cowardly man who stands up in our parliament and spouts his false words of sorrow and regret, whilst at the same time, he deliberately underfunds our armed forces.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

AndyinBrum: I read your posting very carefully. Andy, when dealing with normal people whom one does not agree with, then your advice of ignoring them makes good sense. But I am old enough to recall the rise of Hitler, and I remember the jokes, the mockery and the funny walks and moustaches. Whilst the world was acting the fool, laughing at Hitler or simply ignoring him, the man didn't go away, instead his power grew and eventually he was master of large segments of Europe. If we as civilised people decide to ignore the indecency of this Islamic movement, they will descend to even worse outrages against our norms and ethos, until one day we will find they are in power and hold the reins of control. I am not being a drama queen, I wish I were, but these are not naughty children wanting attention. They are a dangerous element, equal to the Taliban as a force with both feet on British soil. If we don't take care they will have our throats under those marching feet.

Edward Sutherland

"...to become a means of better communication between the Coffee House team and you, the readers..." An explanation is still awaited as to why Coffee House/ Spectator dropped the Neather revelations like a hot brick. If this was the States, some decent investigative journalists would have got the bottom of Labour's real purposes on immigration, Instead, we have to make do with a pathetic post from Massie, clearly acting under orders to kill the subject.

welease woger

Verity commented:

"I am still hoping for a hung Parliament and a new Leader installed."

You sound like Charle Clarke.

John Richardson

Nicholas/'Tiberius'

If what you say about the 'middle ground' makes sense then Thatcher would never have won an election.
More worrying for us all, if you are correct, then Cameron should be 25 points ahead. Not down to single figures in any polls.
The country should be 'Ready For Change' or whatever the brand is now.
Enough people have sussed him for Ladbrokes to have stopped taking bets on a hung Parliament.
How might you explain this (please, without personal abuse insults etc.) ?

PAUL GILBOY

We are now months away from a general election and, spite and vitriol is pored on the head of the conservative party leader, who leads a party who share conservative ideology, who’s central tenants are family, the sovereignty of parliament and the authority of the Crown.

For thirteen years we have seen an authoritarian and brutal ideology imposed upon the British people, where people’s freedom to speak, order their own lives, or call their own homes their castle has been robbed from them.

A tyranny has been imposed that has left our nation bankrupt, defeated and, sold for aggrandisement of this brutal ideology. What was once ours is no more.

Three million people with no affinity, allegiance or indeed even outright hostility walk our streets, claim social housing before the native born and, place an intolerable burden on the NHS. A gift won through our forefathers struggle on battlefield as diverse as the jungle of Burma, the deserts of North Africa, the fields of France and the frozen north Atlantic.

Families and decency have been torn to shreds, with the state passing off doctrinarian instead of education.

The Crown is side lined and the people who answered our call when we were on our knees are treated as a mere bagatelle.

Parliament is invested with swine that steal and lie and fill their boots with the largesse of the public weal; and they have handed over the sovereign powers that could only be achieved when they scrapped the treason laws. But regardless of a law or not it is treason. What was once ours is no more.

Some people say they are conservatives but this is not enough for them to stand the line with conservatives and take back what is ours, ours by right.

This fight we are about to enter will be absolutely brutal because our opponent are brutal lying fascists; And as our parliamentary party system only allows one party to govern it will never be UKIP, who sole strategy in this fight will be to inflict maximum damage on conservative people and the conservative party.

In this fight if you say you’re a conservative and your not with us you’re a traitor.

Tiberius

John R: I would not abuse a fellow poster!

I don't think that Margaret Thatcher campaigned away from the Centre. The radical policies that came after she gained power were not in her manifesto in the form they ultimately took. It is also the case that the Centre can move in different eras.

As for the polling, it is simply not possible for the Tories to command a 25 point lead. David Lindsay is particularly well briefed on the psephology of this. If it were not for Cameron taking the party to where it is, there would be no lead at all.

I agree that the country should be ready for change, but we have about 27% of voters who would always vote for either Labour or Conservative, come what may. With constituency boundaries favouring Labour with about 15 seats if both parties achieve the same share of the vote, it becomes apparent how difficult the Tories' job is regardless of who is leader. That is why Cameron has done so well (where Hague, IDS, and Howard failed), and why he cannot move from the Centre before being in office.

I have always said Cameron (or any Tory leader) would do well to get a majority of 30. As the politics develops via a broadcast media in particular, which is mostly favourable to Labour and hostile to the Tories, it's no wonder a hung Parliament remains an observable outcome.

But my conclusion is that the hustings will win it for the Tories. The shadow front bench has the greater intellect, and Cameron is very good in debate and on camera (although I wouldn't recommend he buys Osborne an ice-cream any more than I would recommend William Hague punches a voter), and the Tory activists are much greater in number and motivated than their exhausted Labour counterparts.

phil

David Ossitt
January 4th, 2010 3:39pm thank you DAVID :) :)Happily I am far from that breakdown ,but I was being serious when I said (and I should have emphasised most)people never bother to comment or do anything -I know you do .I also make it my business to acknowledge those that write sensible comments -I wish others would -now if I may I will get back to banging my head on the wall :)

David Ossitt

PAUL GILBOY.

Thank you.

Tiberius.

I agree.

Nicholas

Noa Zrk: "Neither will a leader whose stated policies are virtually indistinguishable from those of the current incompetent government."

That is rubbish (not you but the statement). It wilfully ignores everything Cameron has spoken about or written.

I can understand disappointment in Cameron as a Conservative leader - I also share that to some extent. But to suggest he is the same as Brown & Co is just michievous and counter-productive to the broader conservative cause. Also the timing is pants.

One might think this is the work of cunning Labour trolls.

phil

Alun Reynolds
January 4th, 2010 2:50pm-ALUN I remember a film from the period when the yanks were here preparing for D Day and one amorous young guy was pestering outside a pub where he had intentions on the daughter .the old man opened his bedroom window late at night and enquired what he wanted .The reply came back" a pint of half and half please" -,one minute later a bucket of half and half was poured on his head "half mine half the wifes"-hopefully senor choudry will get the same hospitality in WOOTEN BASSETT :)

AndyinBrum

"Tom Pride
January 4th, 2010 4:08pm

Andy , surely it takes courage to go out on patrol knowing that each step you take might mean your death or the loss of your legs and /or arms and / or sight and / or genitals? To see that happen to a comrade and go out again the next day . . . not a bog standard job. Guts – every last one of them."

Oh, please dont get me wrong, im full of admiration for the guys and guyettes out there, but I just dont think its heroic to get injured doing a job you volunteered for and get paid for when all you're doing is what you're trained for.

I know a kid (well he's over 20 now, who threw himself on a grenade to save the rest of his team, fortuantely his bergan took the brunt of it and he was relatively uninjured. Thats Heroic, standing on a mine whilst on foot patrol isnt.

Its just my humble opinion

Holly ......

PAUL GILBOY.

THE REAL DOWNTURN
Evil walks among us,yet the signs we do not heed.
Evil walks among us,through our lifestyle and our greed.
Evil walks among us,very subtle very sly.
corrupting all our children, with the adults left to cry.
Evil walks among us,if you look it's all around,evil people killing while the good lay in the ground.
Evil walks among us,and we can not let it win,luring some with money,luring some with sin.
Evil walks among us,but from most there is disgust.
Evil walks among us,in our outrage we must trust.
Evil walks among us,through the corridors of power.
Evil walks among us,bringing this, man's darkest hour.
Evil is in power,judge the action,judge the deed.
Evil walks among us,and it's signs we need to heed.
Evil walks among us,and it really is our fault.
The shallow wants of people is what we really need to halt.
Evil walks among us,growing stronger,hard to slay.
Evil walks among us,set to eat us all one day.
Evil walks among us,with one purpose set in mind.
Evil walks among us,with one purpose set in mind.
Evil has to rid us of the thoughtful and the kind.
Evil walks among us,we must fight it and be fast.
Evil walks among us,can the good in people last?
Evil can be beaten,if we're firmer and we're strong.
Give the children boundaries,so they know what's right from wrong.
Evil walks among us,using chances he has had,have we learned the lessons, what is good and what is bad?
Evil walks among us,do we turn and look away? Or do we re learn morals and defeat the bad today?
Written 1/6/2009.
I am so glad not to be the only one to understand what Labour have done.
Thank you.
I was rock bottom when I wrote this.

Nicholas

I think those complaining about "personal abuse" need to grow thicker skins. We are within months of an election of critical importance for Britain. For supposed conservatives to continuously attack and in some cases heap personal abuse on Cameron, to threaten to vote in ways which will only aid Labour because of his largely imaginary shortcomings and then to be offended when someone bluntly tells them their attitude is stupid taxes reason. And it does seem childish. Would you really rather have a perfect Tory party in opposition for another 5 years? Well, the reality is that you won't get the perfect party anyway but you may indeed get the opposition - and it will probably be for longer than 5 years. No offence to you people personally but I'm finding it hard conceiving anything more stupid than that approach.

Either you are Labour trolls working another "cunning plan" or you are not committed conservatives in the sense that is generally understood it. If you are, then I begin to understand more why the Tories have been so long in opposition and the worst government in British history was able to win three elections. Losing with your integrity and ideals intact is still losing - and what will harm Britain more? Labour hold on so hard, with no merit whatsoever, because above all they are tribal.

Also, the accusations of Cameron's policies being identical to Labour and/or not existing are simply not borne out by Cameron's speeches and writing - which I assume you haven't listened to or read properly because your ad hominem attitude towards the man takes precedence over everything else.

I wish a tenth of the complaining you do here about Cameron was directed at the real enemy. I have a passion for that battle. I'm afraid my scorn for people who should be friends but who sound more like enemies is becoming equally passionate. Tiberius and Paul Gilboy have it exactly.

Edmund Jerk

I'm willing to give Peter Hitchens' advice a go and not vote at all. Especially when all three of the prospective MPs I could be sending to Parliament have identical beliefs. This isn't me 'throwing my toys out of the pram' either: they're all pro-European and are all self described 'progressives'. I don't think I could consciously vote for any of them.

John Richardson

'Tiberius'

Thank you for your insult free response. As is clear from this and other threads it is Nicholas who resorts to insults & abuse.
Anyway, back to the politics.

Though before my time, I always regarded M.T.'s 1979 policies as being very radical indeed :
secret ballots;
no flying or secondary pickets;
cancelling Exchange Controls;
most importantly the Medium Term Financial Strategy, abandoned by Howe.
So radical were these measures she met most opposition from inside the Cabinet.
I recall Germans saying to my small family in 1982, "You British...no one admits to voting for her and yet still she wins!"
Even then, the 'right wing' majority, was cowed into public denial of it's values.
Even with healthy Commons majorities.

You are obviously correct about the realistic size of any poll lead. On the other hand no Government has ever been worse than this. Cameron has proved poor in opposition. Brown should be afraid to show his face in The Commons. Or the street.
I understand boundaries have been distorted to the advantage of urban (Lab.) constituencies. That correspondents and essayists have informed me of this, and not Conservatives, is confusing.
It seems to confirm there lack of vigour & self confidence. Didn't they notice ?
Why not make an issue of the 'Boundaries Commission' ?
Why not rock the boat ?
Speaking of which, again ,you are correct about the 'progressive media'. This is a cancer that will not go away on it's own. The failure to angrily confront distortion and bias is a symptom of the 'Conservatives' existential crisis.
They never fight back.
This I regard as a consequence of their being contaminated with 'progressive' ideals. I imagine we would disagree.

As for 'the hustings winning it for the Tories', we shall see.
My opinion is that the two party duopoly is finished as there is no true 'Conservative Party'. Just shades of Red and Pink. With bits of Green.
Cameron is good on camera in a chat show style. I wonder if enough people want a salesman ? I say, he is a few years out of time, as when he turned Green when the clever money went 'sceptical'. Those huskies.
Bad timing.
As for activists. The destructive energy of Labour's people will never fully dissipate.
As for Conservatives I do not have a clue how they will answer the doorstep question "What will you do for me?"

UKIP are the only National Party who seem honestly to relish the prospect of a ballot. They seem truly optimistic and even 'in touch' (ie 'Climate gate').
I'm not a member and have never voted for them before, by the way.
Certainly will be doing.
Regards.

Peter From Maidstone

Nicholas, I certainly don't think that Cameron is the same as Brown. I am actually sure he is a decent sort of man. But I am yet to be shown where he stands for anything which is not tinged with pink. He speaks about equality, fairness, being green, climate change, etc etc and nothing about the EU, immigration or Islam. So it is hard for me, even though I would like to support him, to find very much to support him in.

Is this mean spirited of me? Or is it unfortunately a reflection of the way things are at the moment? I find it hard to see why I should support someone who does not seem very conservative at all just because he is the leader of a party that describes itself as Conservative.

In the same way the Liberal Democrats ceased being very liberal or supportive of democracy a long time ago. Should I support them simply because I value classical liberalism and they have the word liberal in their name?

John Richardson

Nicholas.

I have never complained about your abuse.
I drew attention to it.
This seems to have irked you. You seem almost to hover around embarrassment and this would be good. Good, because outside of the suffocating clasp of the MSM, the Internet blogs are all the politically aware have. Polluting them with abuse drags the whole thing down Nicholas.
However, you then proceed to hide behind the general election. As a moral coward might*, you suggest it is the enormity of the Nation Crisis, soon to be decided at a pivotal General Election, that obliges you to abuse those with whom you disagree.
OK.
Well.
How about this. It is cowardly to blog something you would never say to somebodies face because you were either afraid to, or too well mannered.
Or perhaps the pressing National situation forces your tongue...or finger...
Why not just stick to the politics ?

*'might' you see.
Not; 'you sniveling cowardly bastard'.
That would just be abusive. It's unmanly to insult strangers on the Internet. It cannot advance any argument. Who know ? The people you are calling 'idiots' at 1:43 4Th Jan. might actually be the 'Special Forces' you refer to.

Derek

I would like to second Anne Wotana Kaye 1's post on Anjem Choudary and Islam4UK's plan to march in Wootton Basset.

The principle to apply in these cases is thrown into relief in the slogan formulated many years back by an American friend of mine who had also seen the 1930s, had lived through the rise of the Soviet Union and who had fought in the Second World War, had studied history and was a great defender and exponent of the theory and practice of American liberty and its roots in our own traditions of freedom.

The slogan was: "No civil rights for Ghenghis Khan!".

That slogan should be on the banner of those pledged to stop Choudary.

Wilhelm

It always bemuses me when people get upset about supercilious piffle like good manners but dont get upset about important things like radical islam, Neathergate, EUSSR, the mps expenses scandal.

Very odd, isnt it ?

djw2009

Dear Coffee House Team,

Did you notice how the BBC and Sky did not cover the Queen's Police Medal being given to the vile Cressida Dick? They covered all the other awards. Maybe you can write a story on that.

Kathleen

The hero and have we undervalued heroism?
By acknowledging a person in the service of others, who by their actions and choices have placed them on a path which places the lives and community before themselves. A journey from which they return to us transformed. The returning and the outcome of the return contains a message for our own journey.
Be that outrage, love, commital, injustice, support, denial, grief, political aganda...whatever it inspires the witness to feel, to voice, to act on is the continuance of the journey.
Whether the hero drove trucks, birthed children, cared for the infirm, governed nations, saved forests or spoke the words of the soul. Any person who takes on an ideal; (symbolised in the wearing or not wearing, of a garment, you could call it a uniform) lays aside their own self, their own self-preservation to give to a higher end, namely to serve others whether they want to or not, fulfill the requirements of a hero.
The question, potentially, is not do they deserve to be heroes?
The question is more probable to say, is the ideal they began their journey for; the God/words/actions that inspired, the political force who acted, does this ideal increase life, inspire harmonious community growth and will it support the future direction as a whole.

Nicholas

John Richardson. I don't quite know how to respond to your post, but I will try.

"I have never complained about your abuse. I drew attention to it."

And the difference is?

"This seems to have irked you."

Not at all. New Labour irk me and the prospect of 5 more years of them courtesy of "conservatives" like you irks me.

" You seem almost to hover around embarrassment"

No, I'm not embarassed - or even hovering around it (however one does that).

"However, you then proceed to hide behind the general election."

??? Difficult to respond to that. The whole thrust of my posts which have so excited you is about the general election. I'm hardly hiding behind it having given such offence to you and the other "conservatives" so determined to ensure another 5 years of New Labour.

"It is cowardly to blog something you would never say to somebodies face because you were either afraid to, or too well mannered."

You do not know and cannot know whether that statement is factual until you hear it from me face to face - or not. If I had a group of you suicidal "conservatives" in a room, even a large one (group and room), you might be surprised at what I was prepared to say to you. Seeing your faces might make me rather more forthright there than here.

"The people you are calling 'idiots' at 1:43 4Th Jan. might actually be the 'Special Forces' you refer to."

I don't see how the two are necessarily exclusive but again I need to remind you that I was characterising the political idea (falling on the sword because the leader is not who we wish - are Labour doing that?) rather than the person. This does not seem to have penetrated yet. And the small boys deference or awe for those two words "Special Forces" that you seem to expect? The "conservatives" so desperate to lose the election could be anything - vicars, trick cyclists, steeplejacks, big game hunters, morris dancers, etc. It is irrelevant. The political idea of a "conservative" scuppering Tory election prospects because he or she doesn't like Cameron is, in the circumstances of our national situation, indeed idiotic. Ergo those espousing it must be idiots. If it is not perhaps you could explain how this is a winning strategy for conservatism, preferably without getting so personal. If you think that a conservative supporting Cameron to defeat New Labour is equally idiotic from the point of view of a "real" conservative then please explain that too. I really don't mind if you think my stance is idiotic or that I am an idiot writing rubbish, codswallop, etc. Perhaps one of the problems for conservatives is the rise of so many timid creatures terrified to offend and the demise of robust and forthright argument not afraid to employ such "terrible" words as idiot, rubbish, codswallop, etc., in favour of the oblique attack? The paradoxical elements of that in those who espouse a strategy of Tory defeat genuinely puzzle me. They want a more robust, forthright leader who will display more ire in his attacks on the government but then they get offended by a few robust and forthright words on a blog from a genuine conservative? Come on! Get your story right!

However, your own oblique attack (the asterisked one) is very much more abusive, very personal and far more ill-mannered than anything I have written; your mask has slipped so no moral superiority from you please.

Nicholas

Peter from Maidstone: "Is this mean spirited of me?", etc.

No, not at all and you have explained your stance with commendable honesty. Much of it I agree with. The only thing I would point out is the alternative. Are genuine reservations about Cameron as important as the danger and damage to Britain inherent in another New Labour victory?

In reality we are not voting for Cameron but for our local MPs and perhaps in actuality for a party. I plan to vote Conservative come what may because I look at Cameron and look at Brown and see what would really be bad for this country. And I know that a vote for any other party could in effect be a vote for New Labour.

I do not buy this idea of Cameron being identical to Brown - or Blair - or New Labour. I think that is an extreme exaggeration and not borne out by his speeches or writing. It does worry me that Cameron adheres too much to an inner coterie of advisers, the "sofa politics" and "modernising" dogma, his green agenda is iffy too, but that is not enough to make me want to give victory to Brown - who is a monster. Then there is Brown's "cabinet" - a greater assemblage of villains, deceivers, misfits and ne'er do wells it would be hard to find - unless one went back to Berlin in about 1936.

I am also aware of how difficult it is for Cameron to show his true hand as a Tory. We live in a country where the socialist narrative of a minority has become the national narrative. The public narrative is "bolshy" and Cameron has to deal with that. He knows that the media will jump on his every word whilst letting Brown get away with the most outrageous deceits on an almost daily basis. There is a bloc of socialism, beyond the political arena that infests and is embedded within our public life.

I also do not buy the idea that Labour victory would result in a new, stronger leader for the Tories and the collapse of the new Labour government in a couple of years. A couple of years? Look at the damage they have inflicted in the last six months! In any case I think that underestimates the extreme deceit and cunning of New Labour. If they won I think it would bring a permanent political darkness to Britain and they would use the new lease of power to make it impossible to eject them.

I'm not about to reject Cameron's 80% to give Brown's 10% victory, "chavvy injunction" or not.

Nicholas

Kathleen, but all of that could be applied to dedicated socialists. Are they heroes?

The word has been de-valued. Heroism is the display of selfless courage in the face of death for the sake of others. Risking almost certain death to protect fellow human beings whether in war or peace. The policeman on the beat or the soldier on patrol is not a hero but he may become one in the course of those duties.

John Levett

The prospect of another 5 years of this appalling government is undeniably dreadful but I will not vote for any party that obliges me to mandate a belief in catastrophic, anthropogenic climate change. As things stand, that leaves UKIP or the BNP.

phil

Much interesting debate between Nick and his friends ,but perhaps we all seem to have lost track of what the real problem of politics is .The politicians in my younger days came to parliament out of conviction and no doubt some still do ,but essentially now it is a career and driven by personal success and dare I say greed .
------------
We have just seen the culmination (I hope)of the worst aspects of this greed and I cannot say it is the fault of any one party .Personally I am a Tory by inclination believing in free enterprise but also in the responsibility we all should have within a decent society to one another ,therefore a proper health service and sensible taxes both to fund our activities and encourage business.We have had that in the past but in my opinion only from Tory governments apart from 1945,I am old enough to remember SET and TES ,taxes at 98 percent on investment income and a stranglehold by the trade unions on our enterprises .I also remember employers saying they were closing down their trading activities because of a combination of high interest rates ,stupid fiscal policies and an inability to even discipline certain appalling activities of their employees .They invested their capital ,lived off the income and a lot of unemployment ensued .Then came MT and suddenly all changed ,our nation began once again to feel both pride and success ,but later sadly I feel as power corrupted ,many began the process which has continued to this day of "I am looking after me pal and bugger you ".
--------------------
We need to find a way of bringing in the best of our society into parliament for all the parties and most certainly we have not done that recently ,it has to become once again a career driven by conviction rather than financial achievement.It might even be sensible for parliament to build accommodation for MP,s to use rather than tempt them to profit from trading in property and it cannot be too hard to have their expenses paid directly from a government office for the more major items other than taxis etc .I do not think 8000 pound TV,s and pond repairs would get very far .
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The practice of denigration of anyone in authority has degraded us too ,as anyone who watches Question Time will see on a weekly basis .Many are coached in politics to talk over their opponents and strangle their opinions, a prime example being Yvette Cooper who never allows anyone else's opinions to be heard .I would like to say something about Paxman and co and the cult of the presenters ,who manage to interrupt so much that we never get the facts that a guest wishes to put to us ,but I want to keep my temper so I will not .People hear are talking of respect and or insults and some think neither is important ,of course they are ,as is calm debate ,I do not see it as weak to change one,s mind when persuaded by a different opinion ,that is the way of a person with strength of character .So to close if anyone thinks anything I have said is worth considering I would hope they will offer better advice than I can give as to how we can change things for our mutual benefit .

Alun Reynolds

@ Phil

Ho ho ho! Here's hoping :o)

Paul B

In my garden this morning, I have seen Blue,Great,Coal &Long Tailed Tits. Green & Gold Finches have also graced my feeders.. Sparrows,Dunnocks,Robins & Wrens have flitting around ,their chests puffed out, with their egos to the fore. The delightful Pied Wagtails, Blackbirds, Starlings, Thrushes, Greater Spotted Woodpeckers have also paid me a visit. Not to mentions the Crows, Magpies & Jackdaws. I apologise for the long list. Whilst out driving about a mile from home, I saw a large Buzzard perched in a bare tree. I have seen Foxes,Rabbits & Hares to. Muntjacs & Fallow Deer, all this very morning.

I have been thrilled by the sight of haw frost clothing the hedgerows and trees.

I have seen the Flag of St George, flying proudly over my local 16th century parish church.

This just reminds of why I love my country and why I know it will endure, despite the temporary damage inflicted by the evil Socialists currently in charge of the old girl.

It is also why I would urge any Conservative to read Nicholas wise words above, and despite any reservations you may have about Cameron, if you really care for the country , then come polling day, you must put your cross against the Conservative candidate if you want to protect Brittania from further harm.

Andy Carpark

There are many variants of the proverb but the Japanese version is, 'He who first raises his voice has lost the argument.'

John Richardson makes several excellent points about netiquette (my expression, not his) to which his antagonist responds, counterproductively, with disappointing petulance. In my judgement he has thereby lost the argument and revealed a large and precious ego in the process. He is not the first chatroom swell whose popularity has gone to his head nor will he be the last.

En passant, I shall be voting Conservative because the local candidate is standing for the first time, has come up the hard way and is therefore hightly unlikely to mutate into a Notting Hill stooge. I would also encourage others to do so on the 'Barbary ape principle' (see Devil's Kitchen passim). I have also held steadfastly to the view that the Cameron clique are a bunch of clowns and respect the decision of those who will cast their vote elsewhere for that reason. They will have made their own calculation of how it will influence the national result and that calculation is part and parcel of what a free election IS. A plague, therefore, on anyone who claims the Tories have the backing of a categorical imperative.

John Richardson

Nicholas.

If you do not know how to respond to a posting, then do not bother. It is unlikely you will do yourself or your political position justice. The problem is that when you DO have something incisive to contribute, it will be lost amongst the anger or confusion. So 'we' all lose out.
You have simply misunderstood or misread several key points in my postings.
I won't repeat them as you could re-read them in the (somewhat) unlikely event you wanted to be clearer about my opinions.
Though, unfortunately, I must point out my asterisked abuse & insults were there to DEMONSTRASTE how easy and 'CHEAP' cyberspace insults are. Not to insult you. I do not think you are a bastard.I do not know you or what you might say in company, obviously. Though you do seem to confuse emotion with commitment. From your postings it seemed that you imagined only those who support Cameron (put simply) where being abusive as only they could see the vital necessity of his victory. Hence your use of 'idiots' for those you disagree with.
Now to politics.
I would be interested to read your views on my posting directed to 'Tiberius'. Though I imagine '79 is even more before your time than mine (not a slight!). Thatcher's pre election radicalism ,or lack of, is relevant to today.
You do ask me a number of political questions, but if you re-read them, they are not clear. Again, I'm not trying to annoy you. They are based upon several assumptions. One being that I am a 'c/Conservative'. I am not Nicholas. Never said I was.
I am a 'far' right religious patriot. You need a country worth conserving to be a conservative. We don't have one.
Only the memory of England, and mercifully some rural enclaves, are worth preserving in this contemporary 'Babylon'.
A Hungarian friend (in 1995) once explained that in his home land; "We always had votes, elections, conferences, pacts, campaigns, manefestos everything....it's just that the Communist Party had all the power."
The political process and democracy itself are two different things.
This is what people like me fear. That democracy itself is enfeebled as all main parties hold to the same dangerous multicultural, anti-family, pro EU agenda.
This is why I invited you to propose one or two policies to make conservatives/right wingers belive in Cameron.
One example I would be grateful if you might address.
Why doesn't Cameron simply say," We will lock up lots more criminals than now for much longer periods and build the prisons to do it. Though deporting the 20% of illegals in our prisons will free up lots of space." ?
Surly he cannot imagine this would 'cost him votes' ?
The only reason must be because he accepts the 'progressive narrative' about crime and 'depravation'.
Hence he is a progressive in blue.
'Would 4/5 more years of Brown be better?' you might ask. Honestly, the next occupant of No. 10 will not be there for very long. The party duopoly is breaking down & I suggest 'thinking' Lab. members long ago realised associating the 'Conservatives' with the commimng austerity would be a smart move. Hence the 'scorched Earth' economics of the last 18-24 months.
Cheers.

Wilhelm.
You use racial slurs. Carry on if you wish.
Hiding behind important issues does not alter that.

phil

John Richardson
January 5th, 2010 1:19pm-JR ,I do not wish to interfere in your disagreement with Nicholas .but you will see that I went to a lot of trouble to write my bit earlier today ,you have "bollocked " Nicholas but never found time to add one opinion about what I hoped was constructive suggestions and so far I cannot find any earlier either. Why is it so necessary for you all to argue over the minor details of propriety and never say a word to progress our ailing nation .
-----------------------
I did in fact have some input into the manifesto of MT albeit from "outside the ring " -I had meetings with the head man from central office at their request ,met with Geoffrey Howe and later Leon Brittain again by their request ,made representations on behalf of business people and offered suggestions ,and progress was made -I have done my bit ,it is time others did so to instead of arguing here and suggesting nothing ..Internet manners do have importance and even a word to say you do not agree is far better than studied indifference .
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Just for my friend David Ossitt ,I hope he finds this calm and measured :)

Wilhelm

John Richardson says '' Carry on.''

Thanks John, I do my best, its always nice to have fans, much appreciated.

Wilhelm

'' My asterisked abuse and insults are not to insult you, were there to demostrate how easy and cheap cyberspace insults are. I do not think you are a bastard I do not know you.''

No one's buying it. If you are in a hole, stop digging, son.

Beer Moth

Paul B

Sounds great where you live. Trouble is, you're not typical in that most of us now have to travel a great distance from our homes in order to experience England...if you get my drift.

The one most frustrating thing about Cameron and the party he leads, is that they have nothing to say, on the most pressing issue - ie mass immigration and its consequences - which offers any hope.

Until any such mention comes from their quarter, then I am left to conclude that a Tory government would preserve the present arrangement, and that is why they lose my vote.

Nicholas

John Richardson - OK. You are not a c/Conservative but a far-right religious patriot. Let's leave it there, then. Emotion and commitment confused? Not sure about that. My commitment might be to ensuring Brown fails in his desire to hold onto power, but I have no control over that. I do get emotional about it. I detest New Labour.

I can assure you though that 1979 was not "before my time". I was fully grown and productive many years before that. Unfortunately most of the Thatcher years I spent abroad. It strikes me that she was a necessary emetic to a post-war slide towards a soviet-style communism that the recent Labour government has now revived and continued. I expect in a few hundred years time historians will be able to distinguish the period 1945-2010 as a continuum of socialist aggrandisement in Britain. Their post-war success having been blunted effectively by MT in direct confrontation they then opted for the stealth approach, culminating much more successfully in New Labour & Friends, but forcing on them certain confusions that are now beginning to unravel.

Andy Carpark. Difficult to raise one's voice online but my understanding is that you do it by using block capitals. I do occasionally use them but usually just to emphasise single words simply because this wretched system does not permit the use of italics. Your appraisal of me comes as a surprise though and I thank you for the compliment. I just consider myself one of the usual tinfoil hat wearing windowlickers here, nothing special. I have followed your posts with interest too, but would not presume to judge your ego on the basis of those alone, other than to mention that they do appear to reveal a concern with popularity, ego, etc., that I do not happen to share.

And you make your "judgement" on me obliquely, to the room at large (as it were) which is also revealing. Disappointing, but revealing.

Nicholas

Phil, I forgot to mention that I did read your earlier post today and agree with most of it. However, I think the parameters of what constitute "insults" have been extended here, perhaps reflecting the obsession with offending and being offended that Britain seems blighted with. On a blog that hosts Rod Liddle I'm surprised that anyone should bother.

John Richardson

'Phil'

Unfortunately my last submission has not appeared.A shame as I thought it important that you realised your pertinent 10:30am posting had not appeared (or less likely,I had not read it) when I submitted my 1:19pm comments.
Your point about constructive suggestions being especially apposite(time...I'll submit something later).

Nicholas.
With all sincerity, your political analysis does suffer a tad from what do appear at times to be insults.Perhaps you don't care but it gets in the way...
For example,regarding your last posting, from 'I can assure..[through to]..unravel'. This is a political perspective I share without qualification. I hate all New Labour stand for.

(Boy....I really hate New Labour......How much?.....Oh,I hate them so much already.....OK...Your In!)Enough Python.

However, I think 'their' 'long march through the institutions' includes the existing political parties.
When the Con Conf. was opened with 'Happy Diwali' and Cameron, without prompting or electoral necessity,chose to support 'Civil Partnerships' then it was sadly obvious the Conservatives no longer existed.
I think Cameron ( who seems largely inoffensive) is 'in the politics business' and is not right wing at all.
Therefore to support him supports the Party Political racket that has bankrupted the country.
I recall from an earlier posting that you do not believe a rapid second Gen. Ele. will be called. We differ on that.
I think whoever attempts to 'front' the consequences of bankruptcy to the Nation will be electorally finished.
I recognise it is dangerous, but surly Brown should lie in the bed he made ? Only then would he received the wholesale national contempt he certainly deserves.
Otherwise the BBC will headline 'More savage Tory Cuts,This Time It's .........'
Fill in as appropriate.
If Labour really wanted to win, Brown would be gone.This explains the scorched Earth economic policies of the last 18 months.
If Harman actually is to be the face of the Labour campaign, then they are staking everything on defeat (joke...sort of).
Regards.

Nicholas

John Richardson: "However, I think 'their' 'long march through the institutions' includes the existing political parties."

What I suggest may have happened is that socialist Political Correctness, Newspeak, Doublethink, etc., has had such a strong and pernicious impact upon our public discourse that it tempers what people are prepared to say. I think it has been a most intimidating development that has truly robbed us of freedom of expression and honest debate. Conservative politicians who appear to have succumbed to the long march are probably, in reality, just afraid to stand up and stand by traditional conservative principles. They know they will be flayed by the socialist media and those in their own party who are determined not to frighten the horses. In true East German fashion the "narrative" that is played out daily on our TV screens, radios and newspapers, is not the way the vast majority of ordinary people really think - but they are too intimidated by what they feel they should think to speak out in dissent. That has probably been one of the most successful aspects of the socialist cultural revolution here. In breaking down the old establishment deference the socialists have actually replaced it with something far worse which has cowed the population.

The socialists have a knack for presuming a "chummy", "we all think the same way" consensus. One can see it deployed by their trendy TV comedians (Marcus Brigstocke is a prime example). But it is a consensus with a dark and sinister edge. Anyone who falls outside that "chummy" socialist family is a pariah and characterised as such. Unfortunately they have pretty much cornered the market in mass media so it is little surprise that those working in the field (and Arts and Academia) largely conform - including, unfortunately, Cameron. They even use the words conform and comply - the former ironic given the blossoming revolution of 1968, the latter decidely sinister.

More recently I think the artificial dam blocking the river of reality has shown signs of cracking, with people so frustrated by PC that they are prepared to challenge it and to be provocative in public, especially as it now features in many oppressive new laws. This has not yet extended, as far as I know, to Arts and Academia (I look forward to the first right wing artist viciously satirising the new hidebound left wing establishment!). And Cameron, bless him, seems to be behind this curve and a little too timid to take advantage of it. Therein lies much frustration for his potential supporters, as evidenced in these columns.

The other negative impacts are no doubt the rise of "professional" politicians, the influence of European style politics (and bureaucratic government, justice and policing) and the great use of advisers (including propaganda types). So it becomes the message and how the message is presented rather than the reality of the situation. That has all been admirably summed up by Phil.

All this has been very un-British if I may say so. As a nation in our recent progress we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. The very institutions, protocols and practices that made our parliamentary system unique and effective have been discredited and undermined by people who did not and do not value them, on both sides of the House. There appears to be little sense of history, historic continuity or legacy other than in ceremony. At school our parliamentary system was held up as uniquely effective and successful where European models were not. Then the socialists appeared in strength with their axe to grind . . . It's far from being an improvement over the old world, but irritatingly they pretend that it is.

In facing up to this socialist threat - or not - the Conservatives seem to delude themselves that they are still playing some gentlemanly game of parliamentary cricket. That the basis for our parliamentary democracy has not been bankrupted by New Labour for the most cynical and self-serving reasons. Britain's current mass delusion probably needs the risk taking of a Nelson or somebody prepared to deliver Napoleon's whiff of grapeshot to break it. Unfortunately that charisma and boldness is nowhere to be seen in our political arena or in our media circus. Everywhere mediocrity - the result of years of socialist oppression perhaps?

Nicholas

John Richardson, to continue with the rest of your posting. Yes, I can see your thoughts regarding the election. But I still think it is a dangerous outcome simply because I do not believe, if Labour should win, that they would abide by any rules of conduct. I think it would give them a boldness to rival Mugabe in demented venom and signal truly dark times for our nation.

The last six months has revealed them to be certifiably barmy, especially Brown, and quite prepared to conspire in the most outrageous lies and deceits. An electorate mandate would, I feel, reinforce their insanity with hubris and sweep away all barriers. The shock to the opposition would be so great as to leave them supine, even more ineffective than now. Mugabe has demonstrated how a financially and morally bankrupt country can still be oppressed and exploited and I don't think I am exaggerating in suggesting that Brown has all those qualities. In fact I think his personality and temperament fit him to being the worst type of dictator. In addition to his devious, manipulative and spiteful ways he has vanity aplenty. If he should get in again I fear only the bullet not the ballet box would rescue us from him.

If Cameron does get in, he needs to pretty quickly dismantle and disempower the socialist bloc beyond the HoC, including the BBC, with as much priority as tackling the economy, because otherwise exactly what you suggest will happen will! Brown's army may be defeated but his fifth column will still pursue the fight by other means and Labour in opposition are as nasty as Labour in government.

Whether Cameron is up to this remains to be seen.

Verity

Well, the big announcement about terrorism that we've all been waiting for from Obama: He says he's going to "tighten up" security.

Well, whoop de doo!! Calm down everybody!

What could be tighter than stretch underpants with a bomb lodged in them? (And now, they are down-playing like mad, claiming to have released him, the second Detroit-bound Nigerian Muslim, on the same day, who was at first claimed to have a bomb jammed up his rectum.) Now the Obama administration is claiming "nothing to see here folks. He was just feeling icky for the 45 minutes he refused to open the loo door. We've already let him go".
Uh-huh.

Am I alone in not believing this?

I think this fellow is in custody on some lesser charge ... let's say endangering the kidneys of fellow passengers by occupying a loo for 45 minutes. They can't do otherwise without admitting that all their millions of dollars' worth of new body-scanning equipment has been rendered useless before it was installed, because it isn't an Xray machine and can't scan body cavities.

You have to laugh.

Kathleen

Hello Nicholas,
To whom has the word been de-valued?

Austin Barry

Verity 11:33

Apparently, the second Muslim Nigerian boarded the US-bound plane without checking-in any luggage. But then why would that indication of a one-way trip to oblivion raise any suspicions?

Without wishing to appear a conspiracy nut, there does appear to be something odd about the incident.

I did, though, enjoy Obama's 'I'm-surrounded-by-dopes-it's-nothing-to-do-with-me-folks" security speech. He really is a piece of work.

Nicholas

Kathleen - I thought that was the thrust of the thread about heroism - that the word (or concept) has been de-valued. Or am I missing something?

To whom - I suppose the general public at large encouraged by the media?

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

IS THE NETWORK OK

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Verity:
What could be tighter than stretch underpants with a bomb lodged in them?
A pair of M&S Masgic Knickers. Bought a pair once and nearly burst after eating dinner. By the way, how is the Global Warming where you are???

phil

Iwrote this on the fifth but it got lost and Nicholas has updated since then ,but I think it is still pertinent-
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John Richardson
January 5th, 2010 1:19pm-JR ,I do not wish to interfere in your disagreement with Nicholas .but you will see that I went to a lot of trouble to write my bit earlier today ,.
I have tried to make constructive suggestions and yet I have not had any feedback ,even a disagreement with my ideas would be better than what is happening here ,I cannot find any of those in all the earlier posts and as David O has pointed out ,I wonder sometimes why I bother
Why is it so necessary for you all to argue over the minor details of propriety and never say a word to progress our ailing nation .
-----------------------
I did in fact have some input into the manifesto of MT albeit from "outside the ring " -I had meetings with the head man from central office at their request ,met with Geoffrey Howe and later Leon Brittain again by their request ,made representations on behalf of business people and offered suggestions ,and progress was made -I have done my bit ,it is time others did so to instead of arguing here and suggesting nothing ..Internet manners do have importance and even a word to say you do not agree is far better than studied indifference .
--------
Just for my friend David Ossitt ,I hope he finds this calm and measured :)

phil

John R and Nicholas -glad to see we have got back up to date and we are back on track -it is emotive here is it not :)-but can be most rewarding

John Richardson

Nicholas.

Hello again.
I read with great interest your 8:42 & 8:52 postings.
Our interpretation of the contemporary political situation seems ever more similar.
For example; the BBC I regard as the single most destructive agency 'outside' of Government. If only more English people possessed the 'self preservation instinct' they were surly born with, the License Fee and all it entails, would no longer exist.
My last (unposted) submission expanded upon this & the issue of funding the BBC....perhaps why it was not posted....mustn't encourage criminal activity...anyway...

We share a healthy contempt for the poisoning of the public sphere with lies. Sometimes I discern a negative feminization of public discourse. Also, for me personally of course, when people learn to love lies they are not only damned in the next world, but submitting to slavery in this. It remains a question of moral choice.

I hope you are correct about Con. MPs retaining conservative values, but I harbour serious doubts. Peter Hitchens some time ago cited a 'Conservative Council' sacking relevant employees who refused to organise homosexual 'adoption' of children.
You are correct about the 'attack dog' media and how they would treat 'conservative' views (whilst ignoring 'DC's' coke/a cola past) however I have little sympathy actually. It is their job to tell the truth about single parenthood or the long term unemployed or the EU or mass immigration or AGW or whatever.
I do not understand why the Con. Party has not waged a long term campaign against the BBC's bias. They have no excuse not to. People know they are being lied to and would be receptive. I fear ideological pollution, and the infestation of professional politicians, as you mention.

At present it ain't a pretty sight.

You are correct again to expect the worst from the current cabal. They are as dangerous as any other mediocre gangsters.
However, the deficit is what it is.
The Bankers have almost privatised the Government of the UK via debt (I accept this suggestion may need more expansion).
'Our children's children will have to pay the debt', lie our politicians.
No. We will.
Either the 'gentleman's game' of gently bleeding the wealth creators is managed under Con/Lab....
Tolerating the gigantic Welfare State.
Funding the NHS.
Allowing continued mass immigration.
Funding the EU.
Maintaining the anti-family experiment.
Funding 'inclusive' socialist education.
Funding alien colonisation of whole tracts of the country.......
.......or it stops.

There is some truth in the 'year zero' phrase you (was it you?) used.
However, what would happen if a successful Iranian revolt led to 100s or 1000s of Iranian applications for 'asylum'.
The Judges would grant those applications.
Our returning troops would face the prospect of very wealthy hate filled 'clerics' living in there country.
Is this impossible?
We might be facing a 'year zero' whatever the party political system comes up with later this year.
I will not vote for values I abhor.
It don't work.

See you at the barricades ?

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

On Womens Hour today, the oracles were proclaiming that a reason why children were speaking so much later is because their buggies face away from the mother, whilst the child sits in a passive manner. I have noticed that the children in buggies, lugged onto buses whilst the push chairs block everyone's passage along the vehicle, seem to get older and older. I suppose it is easier to pull a buggie than train a child to walk on a pavement. But that is another issue. Here I'd like to ask fellow posters if they think that the reason many children are speaking so much later, and arriving at the infant's class age five, still not potty trained, is because many are dumped in state nurseries? I have a theory that many mothers do not speak to their babies or young children, and amongst the less educated class dump them before television sets. The middle classes in the more affluent areas appear to use foreign-born au-pairs for the early childhood years. I have noticed that these young people spend an enormous time on their mobiles (as do mothers) and the child minders speak with very strong foreign accents. I have further observed toddlers stuttering in words which do not have the accepted English sentence structure, making me convinced that the children are naturally imitating their minder's use of language. Please could anybody offer an explanation? Thanks.

John Richardson

Austin Barry.

"Without wishing to appear a conspiracy nut..."

Throughout the entire flight there was an unidentified man, standing,filming the 'terrorist' in his seat. He filmed the other passenger extinguishing the flames.

Without wishing to appear a conspiracy nut...do you buy any of this?

phil

John Richardson I SEE TWO VERSIONS OF MY RECENT POST WENT UP. IT WAS BECAUSE THE WEB SITE WENT DOWN .I tried to withdraw the first because of things you had said later but unfortunately both went up,so sorry about that if it sounded harsher than it would have been etc etc .totally confused now ! must be the weather :)

Ghengis

New Labour Parliamentary Party ---Hoon and Hewitt --- Brown ---- Secret Ballot --- this should get the handbags on the move

Verity

V nice pics, Paul B.

Verity

"Nicholas and John - Thanks for a very interesting string. Needless to say, I agree with you. And re the BBC, I have been saying for years that this toxic organisation should be closed down with extreme prejudice. It is too far gone to be privatised. I want it dead. It isn't salvageable. And I want the top echelon sacked with their long list of shortcomings discussed in public. The government can sell off its backlist and buildings and put the money from the sale into the Exchequer, so that it will be used for the people who paid into it at knife point. And all the ethnics that have been force fed into people's homes will have to look for employment on merit. While I'm solving Britain's woes, I want around 1.5m Pakistanis, Somalis and Nigerians to be forced to bugger off. That would leave around 500,000, if I'm not mistaken, who would naturally draw a lesson and step out of the limelight. The illegals would be packed off with nothing. The legals would be given a small consideration to help them get started in their homeland, which is not Britain. (This is what the French do.) On leaving, they would provide a sample of their DNA and a retinal photograph, so they couldn't sneak back in. And would also be microchipped. Re the Iranians who might become asylum seekers, that would be fine with me. They seem to bring net benefits with them. They're charming, very clever and funny. The gals favour very high heels, slap to the max and big hair. And the men are, in the main, handsome. What's not to like? I loved the few I met when I was living in the US. And American friends who lived in pre-Revolution Iran have nothing but good to say of them. (I realise I'm painting this with a broad brush.) AWK - Re this scary anthropogenic climate change, to give it its official, pretentious name - so nutso that it could only have been thought up by Al Gore or an academic - where I am, it's bloody freezing. And the houses don't have heating, although we're all air-conditioned to a faretheewell. The sky has been a dismal grey for three days now. Very cheering."

Verity

I don't know what happened to the formatting in my post above. It was all neatly paragraphed when I sent it in.

Verity

Iain Dale thinks Brown ought to call an election this week. In fact, he thinks Brown ought to go and see the Queen today.

Such a bold move could work...

phil

Am I really reading the flagship of British journalism ,one that stands for all that is best in our land or has this become a purveyor of such filth that what sounds like a descendant of Enoch Powell has been allowed to write the worst racist attack I have ever witnessed in a British paper and then has the gall to complain that it was not set out to her satisfaction .I would like to sign this "disgusted Tunbridge Wells" but I am phil and deeply ashamed that she has been allowed to do this .We never get anything sensible from her just sarcasm and abuse but this is ten steps too far .

Paul B

AWK- my wife is a child minder and we have numerous in out of house over the years.

I would agree with some of your observations especially about television and parents not speaking to their children. I would also throw into the hat diet. To assist in learning to speak, its helps if children have foods that requires them to masticate. Frequently foods these days are soft and require no effort. Raw veg is excellent for children but we frequently boil it to a pulp -removing the goodness and taking any away effort required to chew.

Weather update, North Oxfordshire has received about a foot to 15 inches of snow within the last 24 hours. Glorious it is to. Bit of a hard job driving home at midnight last night. My usual 30 min journey taking about 90 mins, but it felt good arriving home.

Been looking into the Met Office website recently and its crammed with "Climate Change" baloney. Their local forecast for my area was light snow showers. Me thinks they should spend more time looking after then present and leave the future to take care of itself.

Paul B

Ed McLaughlin- I like your use of black and white photography. The area your phto was taken ? At a guess a Tor on Dartmoor?

Anne Wotana Ksaye 1

Paul B: Your home sounds an excellent environment for children, concern for good food and I'm sure happy and loved children. Just the type of child caring which this Nu Labour would like to supervise, monitor and destroy. In my opinion a family home is superior to any nursery, especially for the very young. Thanks for replying, and I agree with the importance of developing the jaw muscles.

Frank P

Austin Barry "I did, though, enjoy Obama's 'I'm-surrounded-by-dopes-it's-nothing-to-do-with-me-folks" security speech. He really is a piece of work."

Yes … not only that, but he’s a 'piece of work in progress' and unless the Septics wake up and attempt to stop his progress in the mid-term polls, I fear the US hegemony will be completely destroyed by 2012, it’s already tumbling. Not that a USSSR will ensue that soon, nor an extended Neo-Comintern, but the resultant chaos of western capitalism holed below the waterline as a result of the Alinski-inspired take-over of the US Administration, does not bode well for the future of our species, particularly as Western ‘leaders’ have put us in hock up to our necks with the enemy. As for Islamic jihad, let me pass on that one in this post and deal with the impact on the UK.

The only question that is left now is not if but when to take to the highways, the byways and city streets to chase the whole cynical insulated political elite (and their puppeteers) from their plush enclaves, so that we can start afresh? Even that involves a profound problem! Where do you see the replacement material? Not on my radar, I'm afraid. The vital organs - the once reliable infrastructure of British society - is now completely maggot ridden and we're hoping that the wet neophytes spawned in the think-tanks of policy wonkery will improve our political ethos, restore our sovereignty and stop the spread of inimical invasion of extreme religious fervour and internal cultural moonbattery; not to mention the restoration of a balanced economy? Some hope!

While I appreciate the fervour of Nicholas and his desire to oust Prime Minister Asperger from the usurpers chair along with all his aparatshits, I still long to see a grown-up Tory with some gravel in his guts, with a voice at least one octave higher than a castrato and cojones bigger than peanuts leading the conservative party to replace Brown & Co; but nobody of stature has appeared since Maggie and I doubt that such an animal now exists.

It was interesting to see the eventual convergence of John Richardson and Nicholas during their debate above, but the synthesis of their joint brainstorming did nothing to reassure me. They both (and I) agree on the damage done by NuLab, but they also seem to basically agree that any replacement will be a wing and a prayer at best.

I will, of course, hold my nose and vote Conservative. In my constituency, even if,as a warning shot to the Cameroons, I had any inkling to be mischievous and give my vote to one of the other rag tag and bobtails lurking about, pretending that they have some claim to power, it would be pointless because it is a dyed-in-the-wool Tory constituency. But I do feel that expressed frustration is not only fair but essential, concerning Cameron’s poor performance in Opposition and his unwillingness to give a clear indication of his intentions over Europe, Border control, the multicultural mess and Law and Order. He needs to know that he’s in for a rough ride from his supporters if he doesn’t shape up when he takes the reins, as he undoubtedly will. His spat with Brown at PMQ today didn’t perk up my enthusiasm in the least – on the contrary! I thought my TV had changed channels and that rather than watching PMQ I was watching a programme about Middle Eastern oil – all those Kuwaiti Tankers looming large on my screen.

John Richardson

'Phil' and others.

I said I would try to propose a constructive idea to help save ol' GB.

When Frank P wrote;

"...replacement material?....The vital organs....once reliable infrastructure of British Society - is.....maggot ridden...."

It reminded me of an idea.
The human material of Parliament used to be working people. That is Doctors, businessmen, 'gentlemen' retired military etc.
Obviously there were some problems, but High Treason on a grand scale was not one of them. Nor organised theft.
Also, the Party system could not bribe individuals.
This is what the 'abuse' of Blair's 2005 Expenses dispensation was actually all about of course; £ bribery.
The Party system bribing individual MPs so they would not oppose Lisbon (in my view).
I recently read that 1/3 of Lab. MPs are in some way part of the 'Government'.
Huuum.
The Party machine creating 'Posts' to bribe MPs with....

So.
I propose.
A limit of four/five terms in Parliament.
That's it.
Then you have to actually WORK for a living*.
Terms in Cabinet do not count.
Though ambitious MPs would have to garner support from other MPs for promotion etc....those other MPs would have there 'fixed term' status to discourage internal tribalism and political corruption.

Now those maggotss in our social infrastructure.
The above MPs would not be 'lifers'.
Hence, GPs, Headteachers, busybodies...no...not busybodies, forget them, they wouldn't get elected.....instead local businessmen, well known journalists, demobbed Officers...allsorts...might do a stint or two in Parliament.
They would be conscientious as they would be aware of a life after 'politics'.
I do not think 'politics' is actually difficult...Keith Vaz made the Cabinet (!!?)
All MPs to be obliged to be domesciled in the UK only for life (it's a sacrifice the rest of us would have to accept I'm afraid).
Finally, 60k a year wage.
That's it. Zero expenses would re-introduce the 'rulers' to the cost of living.
For the rich a stint as an MP would again be 'service'.
For the rest, they could live on £1200 a week.
There are Maggots of course Frank P. but they need decent fruit/flesh to feed on.
I hope my idea could liberate the decent individuals in our society to wrest back politics from the Parties.
As for years of 'experience', knowing the system, 'safe seats' and the rest, look where it has lead us.
Any thought ?

* Imagine the possible roles they might find,

"Now at 'The Lads Working Men's Club Dance' we have Dennis Skinner (Who used to be an MP of course) sinnging a Country & Western melody....no booing..I said NO BOOING!"

Beer Moth

Paul B

Thank you. It's Ingleborough, North Yorkshire, one of the Three Peaks.

Wilhelm

John Richardson

Do yourself a favour, son and dont pull the '' waycism '' card stunt on us, first of all, its tiresome and it just wont wash. Just keeping you right.

Verity

Equally important, John Richardson, would be a requirement that no one was eligible to stand until they were 38 years of age. They should be able to point to achievements in the private sector by then - very important to the electorate because, once the public sector is slashed by the Tories, the vast majority of the electorate will be dependent on the private sector to sustain themselves. MPs must understand how it works and prove that they have navigated it successfully.

In addition, MPs should be encouraged to maintain their links with the private sector throughout their tenure as MPs, with after-dinner speaking, consulting or whatever. This should not be forgotten: the wealth creators are the engine of any country. The only one, as far as I know, on the Tory front bench who has maintained his links with the private sector is William Hague, who understands one hell of a lot more about how Britain ticks than the fleas and ... err ... ticks who occupy seats in the House full time.

And of course, the Marxist and Gramsci Student Unionists on the Labour benches have never even sniffed the air of a private sector establishment.

And back to my King Charles's head: The disenfranchisement of the welfare sector is critical to the health of the nation in very many ways. For one thing: it would be fair. Those who do not contribute should not be deciding who is spending other people's money. For another, obviously, it would put an end to politicians squandering money in the cause of, buying votes from the couch dwellers. Once they no longer had a vote, the socialists would stop catering to them.

Noa Zrk

I'd prefer to see a voting system that rewarded effort and achievement. Everyone should have one vote, if they are a UK born citizen of UK born parents, or have served for 10 years in the armed forces.
After that additional votes would be earned through working and paying taxes; tax votes not bloody tax credits, having a degree, then a post degree, owing a property or having a mortgage on one.
Of course benefits spongers, criminals and illegals can all watch enviously from the sidelines, if they can find the switch to turn the X Factor off.

Verity

Noa Zrk - I don't like that idea, which was first mooted by Neville Shute around, gosh, I don't know, 60(?) years ago.

All voters should have an equal voice, because it is equally their country. They have equal ownership in our shared history and their forebears doubtless helped shape the country one way or another, whether they mined coal, worked in construction, were railway porters or whatever. It's their country too, and we are all equal under the law. So I don't like that idea.

Taking into consideration that short-term unemployment is often not the unemployed person's fault, I would like to see welfare recipients automatically clicked off the electoral roll after, say, two years without contributing. If they're career non-contributors, they should have no say in how other people's contributions are spent.

Also, as I mentioned above, that they have a vote encourages a certain quality of politician to cater to them regardless of the national interest.

Once employed, if ever, it is a computer click to restore them to the electoral roll.

I would also like to see the influence of the public sector diminished at the electoral box, but this is more complicated. They are not contributing to the national wealth, so they should not really have the same rights as people who are.

Yet, many of them contribute directly to the well-being of society. Certainly our Armed Forces earn their vote. So do fire fighters. So do ambulance crews. Once, I would have included the police force, but their contribution is now laughably diminished and they seem to enjoy the status quo.

Anyway, Labour having rejigged the entire country, the voting system needs to be rejigged, too.

(And while I'm on a roll, elected police chiefs and judges. But that's a different blog.)

Paul B

I agree with Verity that MPs should keep in contact with the private sector. Second jobs for MPs have become something to be sneered at and derided. In fact they are positively good thing. The old Parliamentary working times should be re introduced, so the major debates and votes take place of any evening when members have finished their jobs. If this doesn`t suit the family life of members tough, they are there to represent and serve us- which is a huge honour and family life comes second to that. The great old Parliamentarian Gwyneth Dunwoody used to emphasise this point.

Not so sure on the 38 years of age idea Verity.I recognise the idea of getting experience into parliament is good and well intentioned, but in a House where there is currently 653(?) members,there is room for inexperience the Joie de vivre of youth. Even in a house of 500 members that room will still exist. Its also the principle of taxation without representation. Although U38`s will still have the vote, they will not be represented in Parliament, that's not right.

Similarly with the disenfranchisement of the Welfare client state. Pork barrel politics have always been with us. I agree the Welfare state needs sorting out/dismantling. Its the source of many of our societies ills and not just the upfront financial cost to us. That said the taking away of the vote to those in receipt of benefit and working welfare state is not the answer imo. You are coming at it from the wrong end. Sorting out the welfare state is the right answer. Making work rewarding (reduce taxation). Make gaining an education something to be proud of, rather than sneered at. Bring back self responsibility so that if a male goes around fertilising many different women, he becomes responsible for his subsequent offspring, not me or my pensioner neighbour who still pays his taxes and many millions like us all over the country.

Peter From Maidstone

I generally agree with Verity and others in regard to voting reform, and the issue of multiple votes was raised here a little while ago when someone recommended reading In The Wet.

As I have described earlier I would remove the franchise from long term unemployed and benefit claimants unless they had paid a significant number of years of tax or were willing to join an approved voluntary activity scheme. I would give two votes to members of the Armed Forces who had served in a conflict zone.

I do not agree with posts that suggest that everyone should equally have the franchise since everyone does not equally pay into our society. There should be voluntary schemes and activities which allow people to retain the franchise, but someone who has not worked, and will not work, should not be able to vote himself benefits.

Personally I would increase the age at which a person might become an MP to 30. This is the canonical age for the priesthood, and with good reason, since a certain maturity is required in such positions. I see no reason to insist that Parliament must have 20 year old MPs since there are 20 year olds who can vote. We do not have such a system where each category of person must have a proprotional representation.

phil

Are you all too embarrassed to make any comment on what that woman wrote at 2.57 on the sixth Jan or am I the only one who felt ashamed to be on the same thread .If this racist outburst is what I am being a part of I really wonder what the hell I am doing here .I know she has some elderly sycophants who enjoy her supercilious and abusive remarks and when they are relatively harmless ,who cares? but this stuff was disgusting and I do not want to be associated with it .If any of the victims of her outburst read it ,I apologise on behalf of what I think are the decent Brits who may have ideas on limitation of immigration but certainly not those .

James Murphy

Brr - it's so delightfully cold, isn't it? Nothing to do but watch and laugh as AGW fascists lose their footing in the miraculous landscape of statistical snow and ice! Meanwhile, two very obvious pieces of logic for them to chew on: if this freeze is just a blip in a trend, what happens if there's another blip next year, and the year after that? At what stage do those blips themselves constitute a trend? Secondly, re. the absurdity of the very notion of a 'trend', permit me to cite a pertinent (and suitably childlike) central heating metaphor: if I heat up a room constantly (and for 'room' read 'world', etc, etc), it doesn't suddenly stop getting hotter for no reason (the blip,) it just gets hotter and hotter until I stop heating it! - Oops there goes a religion.

Wilhelm

Phil

Merry Christmas

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Good things and good news sometimes happen. Jonathan Ross is shuffling off the BBC nasty coil. Does this mean that the coup against Gordon Brown was a success and Brown will be now stepping into Ross's equally stinking shoes. If they also dump that revoling sweetie Stephen Fry, perhaps Lord Mandy will trip in to take his place.

phil

Wilhelm
January 7th, 2010 2:29pm -bit early dont you think:)

Verity

Ooooh! Daniel Hannan wrote a piece in today's Telegraph titled "Brown will survive ... again" and ... it's been taken down! One can't access it. Why? I can't imagine them taking down one of Hannan's pieces without good reason.

What does it all meeaaaan????

Nicholas

Phil - I'll respond to your post about Verity - with trepidation. It's called freedom of expression and we either have it or we don't. The 'no right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded cinema' line is a recent socialist construct, contrary to several hundred years of our history and making mockery of the many anti-fascist deaths in WWII, part of the PC package, contrived to stifle dissent and honest debate. Some of those foam-flecked socialist bigots believe that even discussing subjects like racism and immigration is proof of racism and hence we have such socialist delights as "positive discrimination". In furtherance of all that they have brought in hate laws intended to criminalise speech (next target thought) and our friends over the water are already introducing a crime of "psychological violence" to criminalise married couples who utter abuse at each other in arguments. No doubt that will be thrown on the groaning EU legal bandwagon and forced on us too. It won't be long before being rude is criminalised, except for socialism's stormtroopers of course.

I may disagree with Verity's posts, and I frequently do; I may find them objectionable, but I would not deny her the right to post views that may offend some, (q.v. Rod Liddle). I wish more journalists and writers would break out of the PC straitjacket. Only by breaking out en masse and speaking or writing provocatively will the whole rotten edifice of PC come tumbling down, because it will be impossible to pursue and prosecute individual cases. Good! Nobody should be criminalised for what they say or write - or, heaven forbid, think. There should be no right not to be offended.

Also, since we are on the subject of offensive posts, your use of the term "elderly sycophants" is ageist! Are "elderly sycophants" worse than "young sycophants"? If so, why?

Verity

Peter from Maidstone - While I agree that maturity and balanced judgement have set in, with most of us, by age 30, I still think that a 30 year old doesn't have sufficient experience in the rough and tumble of the commercial world. The world isn't about government; it's about commerce.

Most 30 year olds, no matter how clever and dedicated they are, haven't achieved much seniority - by which I mean, a decision making role - by the time they're 30. I could compromise and go with 35, if push came to shove, but still prefer 38 as an age at which one can reasonably expect a clever and determined person to have accomplished something and be fit to contribute to the governance of a country.

Beer Moth

phil

Yes, it would appear you are the only one.

David Ossitt

phil
January 7th, 2010 12:18pm

“Are you all too embarrassed to make any comment on what that woman wrote at 2.57 on the sixth Jan or am I the only one who felt ashamed to be on the same thread .If this racist outburst is what I am being a part of I really wonder what the hell I am doing here”

What you are doing here; is quite simply making a fool of yourself, you keep on attacking this lady, over on Rod Liddle’s Blog ‘Another Islamist succeeds only in burning his balls’ you at January 7th 1:03pm upbraid me thus:-

“David Ossitt
January 6th, 2010 7:27pm -DAVID I have to say that I am surprised that you go along with the remarks of a woman”

My reply to you I enclose here:-

Phil
January 7th, 2010 1:03pm
I can not think; why you should be surprised, that I have agreed with a post from that excellent lady, Verity.

She is; in my opinion, one of the most astute, intelligent and knowledgeable of those who post on these blogs.

I find; that I invariably agree with the opinions that she expresses on these Spectator Blogs, not all, but a great many of them.

I do not find anything she writes to be racist; on the contrary, I find it very refreshing that she does not pull her punches, and that she is always totally frank and honest in pointing out the flaws and faults inherent in multiculturalism, and in her warnings of the real and present dangers of unfettered immigration.

Phil;, I have taken the trouble to re-read some of your posts, on reflection I find some of them quite odd.

David Ossitt

phil
January 7th, 2010 12:18pm

“Are you all too embarrassed to make any comment on what that woman wrote at 2.57 on the sixth Jan or am I the only one who felt ashamed to be on the same thread .If this racist outburst is what I am being a part of I really wonder what the hell I am doing here”

What you are doing here; is quite simply making a fool of yourself, you keep on attacking this lady, over on Rod Liddle’s Blog ‘Another Islamist succeeds only in burning his balls’ you at January 7th 1:03pm upbraid me thus:-

“David Ossitt
January 6th, 2010 7:27pm -DAVID I have to say that I am surprised that you go along with the remarks of a woman”

My reply to you I enclose here:-

Phil
January 7th, 2010 1:03pm
I can not think; why you should be surprised, that I have agreed with a post from that excellent lady, Verity.

She is; in my opinion, one of the most astute, intelligent and knowledgeable of those who post on these blogs.

I find; that I invariably agree with the opinions that she expresses on these Spectator Blogs, not all, but a great many of them.

I do not find anything she writes to be racist; on the contrary, I find it very refreshing that she does not pull her punches, and that she is always totally frank and honest in pointing out the flaws and faults inherent in multiculturalism, and in her warnings of the real and present dangers of unfettered immigration.

Phil;, I have taken the trouble to re-read some of your posts, on reflection I find some of them quite odd.

phil

Nicholas
January 7th, 2010 4:36pm.TREPIDATION NOT NEEDED !! I read carefully what you write and show respect for your opinions I hope ,I should have said one elderly etc, he knows who he is ,but probably as one myself I think I have the right :)-----I suppose you know the one about the guy going into a bar in the USA and shouting all lawyers are assholes ,and somebody shouting back I object to that -why said the shouter are you a lawyer ?.no I,m an asshole !!
---------------------
You know I believe in free speech ,but for me it must come with responsibility and for a person to write ----"While I'm solving Britain's woes, I want around 1.5m Pakistanis, Somalis and Nigerians to be forced to bugger off. That would leave around 500,000, if I'm not mistaken, who would naturally draw a lesson and step out of the limelight. The illegals would be packed off with nothing. The legals would be given a small consideration to help them get started in their homeland, which is not Britain. (This is what the French do.) On leaving, they would provide a sample of their DNA and a retinal photograph, so they couldn't sneak back in"-------------is way beyond the pale .Even Enoch did not speak like that and it is not the first time .When the American election was current she even accused one of Obama,s mentors of murder !and claimed he spoke one way to blacks and another to whites and casting aspersions on him "blacking up" both of which of course were lies ..
------------------------
Nicholas I could continue with her atrocious remarks which make a mockery of free speech ,but mostly I do not care what she says as most of it is ignorant rubbish ,to make these racist comments on a site such as this is too far for me .I am not in the habit of ad hominem attacks ,a bit of banter maybe ,and I do not consider this is one ,it is merely a plea for a standard of decency in a place that I inhabit -I actually even wondered whether it was a case for the police to investigate but I was not brought up to sneak .
---------
I do not want be be tarred with the brush of posting on a racist site ,which I am sure this paper has never been ,so I am shocked that her post even went up -I will put it down to the weather and not the moderators who I hope will see fit to allow my comments .

phil

David Ossitt .I said I agree with free speech and you are free to insult me as in fact I realise you have before ,I have tried to be polite and assume it was a joke ,it obviously was not .I will rest easy in the certain knowledge that the vast majority of normal and decent Brits will think as I do -They may well worry about unlimited integration as I do but they will not come out with racist and vile material as we have seen here and I am sad to have to address someone who agrees with it.Your opinion of the woman is your privilege ,I will stick with mine .

Austin Barry

Phil

You're wrong chum. Verity's bracing posts are based on acute empirical observation and completely free of bullshit, political correctness and hand-wringing self-hate. More power to her.

David Ossitt

Phil

“I will rest easy in the certain knowledge that the vast majority of normal and decent Brits will think as I do”

You must see a doctor; is it possible that you are ill, what makes you claim your own opinions are in fact “certain knowledge” how and when did you hear the opinions of “the vast majority”?

How dare you; have the brass neck to imply and infer that only those who agree with you are the decent Brits?

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Phil: I'm really sad to see the way this wall is crumbling and going ga-ga. Surely this is the one place in the nu labour cesspool where we can be free to express ourselves. Debate and disagree, discuss and offer logical rhetoric. This is what we are doing here, blogging away furiously or hunt-and-peck and checking the speller. AS it so happens, I thoroughly enjoy Verity's comments. Don't always agree with them, but I'm not the type that goes along one hundred percent with anyone. Verity is full of intelligence, wit and doesn't do bullsh*t, I'd miss her if she wasn't around. So tell me, Phil, are you just being an agent provocateur, or is this long cold winter of discontent sending you in search of stimulation. I won't say "cool it, pal", it's too damn cold, but have a nice cuppa. I leave the choice to you. Good night.

Peter From Maidstone

Verity, I don't disagree with 35 or 38, since I am in agreement with the principle that an MP should have experience and maturity. Acting as an assistant to a politician should not count as valid life experience - since it is not experience of life at all.

Kennymac825

Phil nailed it. Her comment was entirely inappropriate.

Verity

Gentlemen - and now AWK1, who has just jumped in - thank you for an elegant and gallant defence.

Verity

Peter from Maidstone - Agreed! Nor does working in a quango count as real life.

Wilhelm

Kennymac666

Nah.

phil

Anne Wotana Kaye 1
January 7th, 2010 8:15pm Anne I am certainly no agent provocateur ,just a guy who is not a racist,and is appalled by the words I read ,I have no wish to support unchecked immigration and I have made very clear how much I despise the militant Islamists ,but I am sorry to say I see no difference in the opinions of verity in as much as they are so openly racist ,Enoch Powell was thrown out of the cabinet for saying less,she at least has stopped at telling them to" bugger off." but will still pay them to go .Sorry Anne not for me .I had relatives who never managed to evade the nazis and one who was the only one left to tell the tale ,do you really think I would go along with excluding genuine refugees ?
-------------
I do understand the frustration of many ordinary Brits with how our governments have handled the situation and I am just as upset by it ,but I will never take it out on innocents ,nor allow it to be said when I am about without making my feelings known .I am surprised to have misjudged some of the people here ,one of whom has turned out to be a complete buffoon ,but I do not think I have got you wrong ,you are better than this and your words have come in a ladylike fashion and I am listening ..

phil

Kennymac825
January 7th, 2010 8:55pm -well said I have at last found a courageous soul.

phil

Wilhelm
January 7th, 2010 9:33pm You are being naughty again and I THOUGHT WE WERE FRIENDS !!:)
Please at least tell everyone that you are a supporter of the BNP and you have the courage to be open about it ,rather than some here who think they are Tory,s and beyond reproach when sipping their tea at the golf club -You are honest and do not hide your feelings and at least I have to admire that albeit I do not agree with you .

Wilhelm

To quote George Orwell

'' Freedom of speech is NOT to say agreeable things that people WANT to hear but to say disagreeable things that people DONT want to hear.''

The far left believe in free speech when its the same as their viewpoint. Diane Abbot, Peter Hain, Jacqui Smith all said so but they didnt want Geert Wilders or Nick Griffin to be heard. You cant have one or the other.

In America where they actually have free speech, you have Jewish lawyers defending the rights of the Ku Klux Klan to voice their opinions.

If you lock people up for their opinions, isnt that what Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Adolf did.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Phil: Hello again,
I was about to turn the wretched laptop off when I decided to have one more peep. Well, I saw your posting, and I must gently tell you (only my opinion) that you are allowing yourself to be wound up. I don't see any racists here, just people expressing their concerns. and many more playing word games. I've done it myself, Phil, trying in a childish manner to 'shock'. You are very sensitive and get wrought and then let yourself in for verbal teasing. Guess these are forums, without gladiators we have word-warriors. Unfortunately the majority of new immigrants arriving here have not been legitimate asylum seekers. Most are not fleeing from the equivalent of a Hitler or Stalin, indeed quite a few, from Kosova were actual perpetrators of murder in their home country. Many from muslim countries are economical immigrants or here to alter the basic western nature of this country. Why if so many of them are disgusted with western values didn't they seek new homes in other Islamic countries? There is certainly a large choice of them across the globe! The people fleeing the Nazis never tried to influence the countries in which they sought a haven. There were no marches with coffins to mock the allied forces who died for the freedom of all the peoples of the civilised world. People are right to show anger when hospitality and citizenship are rewarded with a slap in the face. Phil, I urge you, try not to look within yourself and all your unhappy memories.Take this blogging for what it is, a game. Good night.

Derek

The clue, perhaps, to the location of Phil's position on the political spectrum is to be found in his comment above, January 6th, 2010 12:25pm, that he had '...input into the manifesto of MT albeit from "outside the ring "...'

He was therefore, it appears, one of the "Wets" - a useful term which should be revived. The Wets were the forerunners of the PC.

I see that David Blackburn, in the most recent thread in the CH, notes an article by Archbishop George Carey that would put that reverend gentleman in the Verity camp.The article by the Archbishop appears in the Times under the heading "Migration threatens the DNA of our nation
If we are to stop the extreme Right, we must respond to real fears over the number and nature of those coming to Britain".

If Carey comes, can Nelson's Neather piece be far behind?

Kennymac825

Wilhelm,
My wife considers me a bit of a devil at times.

Verity

Derek writes: "If we are to stop the extreme Right, we must respond to real fears over the number and nature of those coming to Britain".

I for one do not want to stop the extreme right. I want more of it.

What I want to obliterate to Kingdom Come is the extreme left: Jack Straw, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper, Jacqui Smith, Harriet Harmon, Cherie Blair, Peter Mandelson, Margaret Beckett, Patricia Hewitt and all their toxic army, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Chavez, Castro, Ché Gueverra ...

(Hitler, Derek, was extreme left, not right. Your clue is in the name of his party: the Socialist Workers Party. In other words, the same party in spirit as those I mentioned above. Understand this: your enemy is the Left, not the Right.)

Bring on the extreme right! Far right - Maggie, Churchill, Hague, Redwood, Howard, Anne Widdecombe, Reagan, Hannan, Bush, Palin, Sarkozy (oh, yes he is!), Lee Kwan Yew and Lee Hsien Loong, and other fine freedom-loving capitalists. What an invigorating roll call!

Paul B

Phil, like you I didn't`t agree with Verities post you refer to and I especially didn't`t like the tone of it. However, freedom of speech is non negotiable, you either have it or you don`t. As soon as you start proscribing the outer fringes of speech, then you are in trouble. I may not agree with Verity, but I will fight for her right to say what she believes.

I found your thought to report the matter to the Police (although not enacted) disturbing and instructive. Why would you even think of going to the Police? Thats quite totalitarian behaviour and not the action of one who believes in free speech.

I would say to bloggers that in the same way that Verity has the right to freedom of speech, so do the Islamic organisations who are proposing to march in Wootton Bassett. You cannot pick and choose, although the proposed march is an objectionable offensive stunt, we are better to let them have the march than to ban it and then the marchers become martyrs to their cause.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Let's get away from all this serious business. Thinking of the latest 'scandsl' regarding a politician's wife, I started humming "Please Mrs Robinbson....."

phil

Derek
January 8th, 2010 12:07am How did I "become" in your eyes a wet ?,they were the ones that did not agree with MT and I can assure you I am no pink liberal -I put my thoughts to the head man from central office and later the others that I mentioned ,all at their request ,so you leave me at a loss to understand what you are saying ,much of my message was in fact carried out, although I do not claim that it was due only to me ,that would indeed be laughable ,but it was the thoughts of many from the professional and business sectors that in the position I held I was aware of .
.
I am just as fed up with unrestricted immigration as no doubt you are ,but I am drawing the line at barking racist invective from a source who has referred in the past IN THIS PAPER to Obama "blacking up " at meetings with the black community in the USA .I am proud to be a Brit and I am trying ,without much success to uphold the values of decency and tolerance that is our past .I believe I would be applauded at Hyde Park corner and our lady friend would have rotten eggs thrown at her and seen off in a hurry .I am a newcomer to this wall stuff and maybe one can say anything as Anne WK perhaps is suggesting so although I appear to have fallen into a predominately far right column I will stand tall and say that I believe my opinions are those of most Brits who inhabit polite society .
----
AnneWK,thank you for your continued kindness ,I do understand your message and I am sure you do not have a racist bone in your body ,in this case we will have to disagree on the purpose of some posters,but I hope that is all ,as I did write to you earlier in the week to tell you why I write my thoughts .
---
Wilhelm ,you have made some valid points regarding free speech ,but I hope you will not mind me correcting your last sentence in as much as those people were killed for what they were ,not for what their opinions were .I have a friend here (I hope ) Herbert Thornton who supports the BNP usually on Mel,s threads ,who is as frustrated as many here but has never said anything in the least racist .I respect his opinions even though I disagree with them in certain aspects .he certainly has never suggested the immigrants "bugger off " and any of the other horrible phrases that were used and unless my memory has deserted me nor have you .

Rachael

Enoch Powell is one of the few figures to unite Left and Right. His famous speech on immigration united the ordinary folk of conservative bent and, even more so, the ordinary folk of the Left to support him. The rank-and-file union members saw the sense of what he said.

He was ousted not by the public (what electorate anywhere wants mass immigration – that’s why Labour left that part of what they’d do out of all their manifestos) but, as usual, by the cowardly political elite, aided and abetted – as these cosseted goons always are – by the BBC.

Powell’s prediction that we would see blood pouring through the land like the river Tiber overflowing with blood has already come true on 7/7 when the blood poured round the tunnels of the underground.

The political elite don’t care.

The public, though, have rumbled them. Labour’s core working class vote realise they are being bred into minority via Hijra, the Islamic doctrine of immigration, and are finally understanding that Labour has nothing but pure ideological spite toward them that it covers with honeyed, phoney words about ‘yuman rights’.

The Conservatives’ core vote see they, too, have been deceived by their party and those in it who would demonise Enoch Powell. They now like immigration because it meant cheap labour for a few fat cats.

Result: we are seeing the mainstream political parties crumble before our eyes. Who’s going to do the grass roots work of knocking on doors? Precious few believe such claptrap.

All that Verity said was this: “And all the ethnics that have been force fed into people's homes will have to look for employment on merit.

What’s wrong with this? Why should people be waltzing into jobs because of their religion and skin colour?

“While I'm solving Britain's woes, I want around 1.5m Pakistanis, Somalis and Nigerians to be forced to bugger off. That would leave around 500,000, if I'm not mistaken, who would naturally draw a lesson and step out of the limelight. The illegals would be packed off with nothing. The legals would be given a small consideration to help them get started in their homeland, which is not Britain. (This is what the French do.) On leaving, they would provide a sample of their DNA and a retinal photograph, so they couldn't sneak back in. And would also be microchipped.”

Is this really so very different from the immigration policies of places such as Japan and India? They don’t do mass immigration over there. If I’m right, it takes about 10 years to get Indian citizenship. It’s certainly not an easy country to gain official citizenship to.

The message is clear: they don’t want masses coming in. Those who do try to get in face so many hurdles that if they are really that committed, they will be totally subsumed into the host culture and will not set about undermining it.

And why must Britain take all the world’s refugees?

Verity suggests forced repatriations. How else will the situation improve so that we can be like Japan and India and all the other countries that believe in sovereignty and looking after your own? I wouldn’t go along with the microchipping suggestion, but if someone’s booted out, why shouldn’t their DNA be stored here?

I read all this guff in the financial pages about Japan’s government bond market collapsing and think to myself: as if they give a damn. Japan will rebuild itself no matter what because it has retained the core essence of its culture.

The Left knows how important tribalism and sovereign power is: that’s why they recommend it for all the African countries. And it’s why they’ve done so much to try to abolish such core traits of human nature here. Everybody else is entitled to these things – but not us. They wanted country this ruined and they went for the concepts that would do that.

Given the obsession of our culturally illiterate financial journalists who bang on about Japan’s broken bond market, it’s high time the Financial Times was sold alongside bog roll.

It’s the culture, stupid. That’s why Japan will survive.

Bugger the economy. Although I think Gordon Brown did that anyway.

phil

Paul B
January 8th, 2010 9:32am Your post came on after I had written my last chapter (honestly I am not trying to write a book) I agree with virtually all you have said .I am passionately in favour of free speech ,but it has to have responsibility .Lives have been ruined by slander and libel.
----------------------
As regards the police ,it was just a passing thought ,immediately dismissed because that is not my way ,but have you never glanced at a passing blonde and had thoughts that of course you immediately dismiss :) ---We thankfully do not have the thought police here yet .Have a look at verity,s latest post .I do not think ANNE WIDDICOME and others would be happy to be included in her list .

Nicholas

Mighty amused last night when the BBC 10 o'clock Propaganda Kompanie broadcast wheeled out a tame weather man to remind us with a supercilious wag of his finger (as though speaking to the infantilised morons that Herr Braun's Nazi Party want us to become) that climate and weather are not the same things. This severe winter weather does not mean AGW is not a reality he sermoned, as I tried to see whether the little badge on his coat really was a hammer and sickle. Thirty year trends are what's important he pontificated, not sudden cold spells. "Bollocks!" I shouted at the screen, remembering the very severe British winters of 1947 and 1963. Ah, I thought, switching off Mr Global Commie Weatherman and luxuriating in the memory of Britain BB - Before Blair, Before Brown, Before Beatlemania - 1947 and 1963. To school plodding stubbornly through the snowdrifts in short trousers with chapped knees to sit in a draughty classroom in abject fear of a teacher who had recently traversed Europe inside a tank turret and who took no prisoners with his booming voice, the result of his deafness. The Head was a kindly man, though, whose gentle demeanour and quiet voice gave no hint of his fours years imprisonment by the Japanese. Both were sure and certain of where they came from and of where we were going - BB.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Rachel: A brilliant piece of writing. Straight to the point, logical and completely accurate. I agree with your remarks, including Enoch Powell, who was far too bright and honest for the mediocre politicians surroundig him.
Nicholas: I too found the Weather Dictatorship as a cross between Dad's Army and Fawlty Towers! Weather/Climate, on and on he went.

phil

Rachael
January 8th, 2010 11:22am not rachael griffin I suppose ? this is what this wall is descending into and I am sure not what its purpose was -I am beginning to wonder where I can read,certainly not the Guardian/Independant -maybe the Telegraph /Times -There are so many great writers in this paper -and now THIS !

Rhoda Klapp

Verity didn't write anything racist. She did not advocate hatred or indeed different treatment by race. She is concerned with those of foreign nationality who immigrate and do not assimilate. In a democracy, the voters would be asked before this sort of thing was allowed. We were not asked. We never will be. And now we are not to question it either.

Paul B

Phil, re your passing though. Point taken.

AWK, re Mrs Robinson. Its a very tragic affair.Seems to me she needs her own "Bridge Over Troubled Water" to ease her mind.

Mrs Robinson also includes the couplet
Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you (Woo, woo, woo)
What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson
Joltin' Joe has left and gone away

What would the UK give for our own political "Jolting Joe" right now.

Wily Trout

There was a time when I could get nicely off to sleep watching Newsnight, with Paxman et al droning on and on. Nowadays it wakes me up with irritation and outrage and leaves me tossing and turning in anger all night. Back to counting sheep, then.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Paul B: It certainly is a tragic affair, but I always find something comic even in tragedy. Never mind, soon it will all blow over, and new 'scandals' will fill the headlines. Indeed "A bridge over troubled waters."

Derek

Verity. "Derek writes: "If we are to stop the extreme Right, we must respond to real fears over the number and nature of those coming to Britain"."

If you read the post carefully, you will see that the statement was in quotes and was part of the title to the Times' article by Archbishop George Carey.

Paul B

AWK, I understood you were trying to be amausing and attempted to respond in the same way, following your Simon & Grafunkel reference. I thought too terrible to say suicide must be the 51st way to leave your lover.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Phil: You wonder which newspaper to have. I my home we no longer have a morning newspsper. We enjoyed "The Telegraph" which was pretty unbiased and well writen, but there wsas a serious problem involving its print. It came off on our hands and onto clothes and furnishings. Several times I wrote to the paper, but they couldn't evn give us the courtesy of a reply. Now we have "The Spectator" weekly, a well written and interesting journal. We also buy "Private Eye" which reveals a rather accurate picture of contemporary life. WE keep it in the loo, where it provides many happy hours.

phil

Paul B
January 8th, 2010 12:46pm try "the boxer"

Peter From Maidstone

AWK, I must recommend Standpoint. Only a monthly I am afraid, but the articles are all interesting and well written. I wish that the Spectator would copy some of their approach - not in all respects of course.

What is it with the Daily Mail. I occasionally read it over my wife's shoulder, but having expected it to support Cameron it seems to delight in opposing him at every turn.

phil

rhoda klapp well it rhymes anyway -----"verity didn't write anything racist ,she didn't advocate hatred or different treatment by race "-who then were the 1.5 million + another 1/2 million ? Were they Yorkshire lasses or scousers ,no of course not just people born with a different skin colour to yours.Too many of you are writing Klapp with no doubt a sickly smile of embarrassment on your faces, even my heroine AWK praising the appalling words of rachel -
-------
Well most of you but thankfully not all , can stick your thoughts where Abdullah Abdul Farouk Umar stuck his device ,I recommend Coopers Y fronts as a tight fit and with a bit of luck you clever lot will make it work .I think I will leave you far right wingers to suggest more atrocities and fight it out with our extremists from the left just as they did at the Jarama to the ultimate cost of millions of lives and pain still being felt to this day .To qote FDR from Dec 1941 -this will go down as a week of infamy .

You no doubt will be glad to hear that after this I am probably done with you ,but I reserve the right to reply to any more rhoda .

anne wotana kaye 1

Peter of Maidstone: Thanks will try the journal you mentioned. The "Mail" always seems so indignant and outraged, rather like a puerile Mary Whitehouse. Shocked, but must peer out behind the lace curtains.

Vulture

@ Peter from Maidstone. As a solid right-wing chap you shd know what it is with the Mail, but in case you don't, may I, as an occasional Mail hack, enlighten you?

Mr Paul Dacre, the Mail's resident Duce, is a home-grown, lower-middle class, intensely ambitious, hard-nosed self-made sort of chap who admires the same qualities in others. He likes people - regardless of ieology - who triumph over adversity by their own efforts. (Hence his otherwise inexplicable affection for David Blunkett and Gordon Brown who have one good eye between them). He's a conservative with a small 'c'. Like you.
Not a Tory toff.

He also has socially conservative attitudes: disapproves of extra-marital affairs, drugs, homosexuality, Jonathan Woss etc.

Now, given all that, what do you think his attitude is to unearned squllionaire, louche former Bullingdonian, hanging around with nasty violent rich types Dave?

Exactly. The Mail's politics explained.

Peter From Maidstone

phil, I don't think anyone has a beef with people of a different skin colour at all. The beef is with the unrestricted immigration of economic migrants from all over the world to this country without any pretence of the political class asking our opinion or permission.

I like Polish people very much, but it is not good for our country to have 500,000 appear suddenly in the UK. I like French people but would be concerned if a million immigrated to the UK and started insisting that British people change to suit their French culture.

The fact is that dangerous levels of immigration have taken place and primarily from the Indian sub-continent and increasingly by Muslims who do not wish to become British at all. The race or skin colour of these immigrants is immaterial, it is the fact that they are economic migrants who are destabilising our country, and even wishing to take it over, which is the material point. How then is it racist to wish to repatriate some at least of these economic migrants, especially those who do not wish to integrate and become British?

Recent reports suggest that tens of thousands of low level Indian IT workers have been brought into this country. How can that be good for Britain when there are plenty of capable British people who could do the work?

No-one is talking about real asylum seekers. I would have wished that any and all Jews could have found shelter in Britain before and during the Second World War. But most are not in that case at all, and many are in fact extremist preachers of hatred who are justifiably liable to criminal conviction in their home countries.

None of this could be construed as racism by any conservative. I have grown up with foster brothers and sisters from African and Caribbean ethnicities who are part of my family. But they are not economic migrants, nor are they seeking to destroy our culture. It is not to do with race, it is to do with culture, heritage and economics.

As has been said already, if a Pakistani Muslim who hates the West wishes to eave Pakistan there are a great many other Muslim countries which would better suit him than Britain. If Britain wishes to remove such migrants who show that they do not wish to become British then this is not racism.

Rhoda Klapp

Phil, they are immigrants some of whom do not want to assimilate, but to change this country. Pakistani is not a race, nor is Somalian. Nobody was aked if they could come here. The problem is not the colour of thier skin, it is their behaviour. It's oh so easy to shout racist, but it is the tactic most recently seen on the left to shut up any opposition, to deny any debate.

Oh, I don't agree with Verity on what to do. My problem with immigration is only one of numbers. It is evident that too many in a short period bring undesirable results for the non-immigrant population, if the incomers bring too much of their own culture and it conflicts with what is usual. I'd limit numbers. So I suspect would most of the population of the country. But we will not be asked. Is it your position that we should never have been asked, that there is some immutable principle that means immigration from whatever source may not be debated?

Verity

Islam as a toxin has been infused into our country with an eye to its becoming a lethal injection.

Islam is, in the main, incompatible with any other religion or non-religion, because it is the duty of every islamic to forward the cause of their bossy diety, allah.

This belief system has been used by the Marxists and Gramscis - two of the most egregious being Tony Blair and Jack Straw - to kill our culture and to hollow out our society and civil institutions.

This is why islamic immigrants are catered to in a way that would have had our grandparents taking to the streets.

Derek

Peter From Maidstone - exactly. Wake up phil!

Verity

I don’t usually waste time on Phil’s febrile, malinformed meanderings – by which I mean, I sometimes read the first sentence before I see the name attached and move hastily on - but his spite on his last couple of posts was such that I think it’s time he was addressed directly.

Phil, read my lips: Islam is a religion. It's a choice.

Race is genetic.

One is born as one is. And one stays that race for life. But one has a choice as to whether to continue to be bound to a wicked, aggressive religion that commands death for unbelievers. Therefore, to dislike someone for the skin they were born into is silly. To dislike someone for consciously adhering to a violent, aggressive belief system is perfectly rational.

Phil writes, referring to me: "When the American election was current she even accused one of Obama,s mentors of murder."

Even leaving aside the eerie tracking of a fellow poster for two years …

I didn’t have to accuse William Ayers – Obama’s "mentor" – of murder. He, with his girlfriend, Bernadette Dorhn, was the head honcho of the Weather Underground, a US self-proclaimed terrorist organsation, and was on the FBI’s Most Wanted list for years before he was caught. Their photos were up in every Post Office in the United States for years. They were responsible for around a dozen bombings that killed innocent people. He and Dorhn chummed up with Obama and Michelle and they threw the kick-off party for his presidential campaign in their home in Chicago. This is not secret information. Obama was and is perfectly aware of who Ayers and Dorhn are.

I read at the time that Ayers was writing some of Obama’s speeches for him. There was also speculation that he had written Obama’s "autobiography", Dreams of My Father for him.

That Obama appeared to have put on darker make-up for his speech in Denver in front of the Styrofoam Greek pillars was much noted around American blogs at the time and confirmed my own observation. For such a busy little poster, Phil, especially one trying to give the laughable impression of having powerful contacts, your terms of reference are very provincial.

"I do not want to be tarred with the brush of posting on a racist site ,which I am sure this paper has never been ,so I am shocked that her post even went up" Perhaps your shock was occasioned by the fact that you didn’t understand it. And you don’t know the difference between a paper and a magazine. Or a religion and a race.

Again, Phil writes: "the opinions of verity in as much as they are so openly racist". Tell us again how islam is a race. Have the scientists found a genetic link between islamics, for example? A genetic link between Africans, Pakistanis, Iranians (who are Aryans, as are Bosnians), and Semites? Could you give us a link for this extraordinary information, Phil? Or is this a discovery you made all by yourself? Are you a genetic scientist? Did you publish a paper?

Rachel, thanks so much for the information about Hijra – and for a rational and lucid post.. Obviously, that concept exists because they are working to a pattern, but I didn’t know there was a formal name for it, despite having read quite a lot about Islam. But I should have guessed. There’s a formal name for everything else, including lying under oath.

You are right, too, about Indian citizenship. I love that country and wanted to immigrate there, but no one except an Indian citizen is allowed to buy property. That means no … one. Under no circumstances. They are rock solid on this. So I happily enquired about getting Indian citizenship. I lived in Delhi for a while and I’d love to be an Indian. I’d love to carry an Indian passport. But when they told me it takes 10 years, with no exceptions, I abandoned the idea because I couldn’t see throwing money away on renting for 10 years. But not before, like a dog jumping at a brick wall it knows is too high for it, but keeps trying anyway, I had called different Indian embassies, idiotically hoping to get a better answer in Ottawa than I got in DC or London or Paris.

Phil closes on a triumphant note based on a total misapprehension: "but I am drawing the line at barking racist invective." You’re quite an item, Phil.

phil

Peter From Maidstone
January 8th, 2010 4:40pm-- PETER I said I had signed off and I have with the racists ,but I am glad that you have made your points and clearly , as a person for whom I have made my own respect clear in the past ,I promise you that much of what you have said is entirely what I feel -I do not want unrestricted immigration .I do want those who are here to integrate and show allegiance to our flag and I certainly know there are many who do not.I also am well aware that it is in fact Islamists who are causing terror ,none of that is in any way disputed by me ,In fact I agree with the Australians who have made it clear that if these people do not like their way of life they are free to go .but that is a long way from telling them to "buggeroff"yes all of them !
--------------
What I do despise is the language that was used by the woman whose name I do not even like to mention .The attitude is a recurring problem as it became clear during her tirades against Obama .I have my own problems with some Muslims and their supporters on other columns in this newspaper as you have seen but I do not revile them in the way it has happened here and I have to say some have really shocked me -I naively thought that racist outbursts came from yobbos and not from literate people
-----------------
.Nicholas and others have talked about free speech and I too am passionate about that ,I endured plenty of name calling at school and a few noses took a battering to compensate :) I am not bothered by name calling and silly tittle tattle nor the supercilious sarcastic nonsense that she writes ,Last week I even defended her right to use her name which had been usurped by another woman it is the outright racist remarks on a thread that I am a part of and I will not be associated with either her or her supporters who think this is not racist "-----------------"While I'm solving Britain's woes, I want around 1.5m Pakistanis, Somalis and Nigerians to be forced to bugger off. That would leave around 500,000, if I'm not mistaken, who would naturally draw a lesson and step out of the limelight. The illegal's would be packed off with nothing. The legal's would be given a small consideration to help them get started in their homeland, which is not Britain. (This is what the French do.). ----Some of these people are our doctors ,MPS,magistrates and soldiers .and they deserve better from us than this .I don't intend this to be a lecture Peter ,you have shown yourself to be a compassionate man many times before but my time here would be pointless if I did not signify my contempt for those that share her opinions on race and I DO NOT TIHNK YOU DO .
---------------
PS whilst writing this Rhoda put up an answer which seems to signify she does not agree with verity,s solutions ,but earlier seemed to think verity only wanted rid of those that would not integrate ,well )she(verity has never said that, and now there has just been a further tirade, so if my message is beginning to get through so much the better .I am not looking for enemies here but as you will have seen I will choose my friends .If DEREK agrees with Peter we still can all get along -well some of us .

David Ossitt

Rachael
January 8th, 2010 11:22am

A very well written post, I agree with you.

daifromwales

Does anybody here know how I can find out how much energy has been produced by the UK's wind farms over the past 7 days?

Just curious to know. I'm sure 'freedom of information" laws will not help - I bet it will be "commercial in confidence" - just like the Met Office's temperature records.

I's so nice to know that, in this socialist state, responsibilty for strategic planning of power generation is left entirely to foriegn-owned private companies - who are presumably quite entitled to close all their power stations tomorrow if they feel the urge.

John Richardson

Nicholas & 'Wily Trout'

I empathise with you 'BBC induced stress' experiences.
It's been years now since I afforded the swine the time of day.
I can only suggest you 'cold turkey' the BBC.
It's dramas are not dramatic.
It's wildlife is beaten hands down by 'Discovery'.
Sports ?
Compare the BBC with 'Sky' and laugh out loud.
Watching the BBC News is honestly damaging.
Culture ?
'The Late Show' is beyond parody.
It still, 25 years after the BBC promoted 'Oranges are not the only Fruit', invites Jeanette Winterson onto the show.
This is the truth.
I've seen her myself.

How can you expect to sleep after 'Newsnight's usual portion of twisted pompous BS ?
Politics ?
Oh..well,don't get me started on the Government...

phil

Verity for the first time ever I can say thank you !! you have given me amusement instead of annoyance and having lost your temper have shown ,at least me ,how wrong you are -You have exposed yourself i had no intention of continuing this discussion but you tempt me and . know you always read my posts ,you may not like them but you do read them ,and in case you worry about me I have no fever ,nor do I claim influential friends ,when I write you only read the truth ..You are free to disagree that is your privilege but please try to be polite it makes the world go round .btw I know you read my posts because usually within minutes you write to someone else about another topic entirely in an attempt to show you have ignored me :)-I understand that , girls did similar things when we were teenagers ,remember?:)
-------------
Tell me was Bill AYERS EVER CONVICTED OF MURDER ? Do you really think a murderer would get away with it ,and did the great American people elect his friend or not ? Is he a teaching professor now ? you dodged this all the way through the election period ,oh and btw I have never approved of what he did and later I believe he changed his mind too ,but I am no expert on this matter ,but nor are you and it was your unfounded accusation which was meant to reflect on a presidential candidate that I objected to .-My preference as you well knew was Republican anyway ----"Blacking up" ,you actually admit to , it is in writing of course .For your info ,I do not track you ,I just remember the nastiness you displayed with never ending supercilious and sarcastic remarks .You left us in a fit of pique because you did not like the flak from some discerning posters and Obama won in spite of your "efforts"-He was not my choice but I accept the will of the people .
--------------------
I will not enter into definitions of race or genetics with you ,your thoughts were displayed for all to see and those that agree with you will not care what I say ..I will say though that for one so gifted in the ability to write, it is a great shame that you cannot do it with grace and common sense instead of the never ending supercilious attacks that I read every time your name appears .You see I am not so childish as to say I do not read your bon mot's ,I am an avid "fan ",but what a waste of talent----Your "supporters " no doubt will flock to the assistance of a maiden in distress but unless they are people for whom I have respect they will waste their time and their insults will just amuse me -
-------------------
Try for a better and happier life Verity ., be nice show your talents ,give some good advice with the brain you obviously have and you will accrue more friends ,maybe one day even me ;)-I know I have exposed my chin there ,pero no aventura ,no es un possibilidad de la paz .

Verity

John Richardson, but whether you 'cold turkey' it or not, as long as you have a TV in the house, you have to pay the Danegeld.

David Ossitt

phil
January 7th, 2010 5:34pm

“I actually even wondered whether it was a case for the police to investigate but I was not brought up to sneak”

Are you sure about that? (Do not bother answering that) as you did not answer my previous questions to you that were.

” what makes you claim your own opinions are in fact “certain knowledge” how and when did you hear the opinions of “the vast majority”?

The fact that you wondered; even for a nanosecond, whether it was a case for the police, says it all, you might not have been brought up to be a sneak, as you claim but you have certainly grown into one.

If further proof was needed; here you go again.

phil
January 8th, 2010 11:38am

“As regards the police, it was just a passing thought, immediately dismissed because that is not my way”

A passing thought?

What kind of mind do you have that thinks such thoughts?

You don’t have to answer, as you already have, with you’re:-

“have you never glanced at a passing blonde and had thoughts that of course you immediately dismiss”

Peter From Maidstone

phil, I am not sure if you object to verity's language or to the principle of repatriation of some immigrants? Is it the first or the last or both or neither?

I do think that I would not express myself as verity does. Not least because I was brought up not use any bad language whatsoever. The Labour Party does sometimes make me break the habit of a lifetime.

If she had said that there had been uncontrolled immigration over the last decade and some of those who had been allowed access should now have their access revoked and be required to return to their home country, would you have agreed with that?

I am well aware of the contributions of many immigrants, but it seems to me that such contribution should not be considered absolutely to justify granting citizenship or even residency. There are many doctors, shop-keepers etc etc. But there are also many who have few skills, or skills that are common, and who compete with British people for British jobs. (This category includes many European migrants who come to Britain only to find work, and een unwittingly take it from unemployed and benefit receiving Britons).

But of course there are also those who are criminals and those involved in anti-British activities, and those who do not wish to become British in any real sense. Should all of these have unlimited rights to remain here and remake Britian according to their own usually dysfunctional homelands?

Personally I would restrict immigration very tightly, and I would also restrict movement for employment from Europe as well, although perhaps less strictly. (If this runs up against any treaties then I would unilaterally rewrite our participation. National security and identity is more important than freedom of employment for foreigners. Is someone going to go to war over it? I think not.)

I would also provide a lengthy period of probation for those seeking to gain citizenship (10 years sounds OK), and residency for those without citizenship should not be a right but a privilege. In those circumstances a non-citizen who committed serious crime would lose residency immediately. Those engaged in any form of anti-British fifth columnist activity who were not citizens would lose residency immediately. Freedom of expression is a right for citizens not simply people who happen to live in Britain. Marching up and down with a placard saying 'We are going to slit all your throats' is a right for citizens not residents.

I am not so sure about repatriation. I guess I am more accepting of it in regard to young economic migrants - wherever they come from. And all those associated with criminality and violent Islam. And those who have already been asked to leave.

But I am hesitant because I remember Ruth and Boaz, yet Ruth was willing to be integrated. And I remember the injunctin to care for widows and orphans. But if we do nothing then we will truly be swamped in a variety of ways and will no longer be able to offer hospitality to the widows and orphans who need it.

So I guess I am in favour of some degree and some form of repatriation, with politeness and support for those being repatriated. And for very strict limits on future immigration and the granting of citizenship.

I am not sure if you agree with this, but it seems to me that we need to do some such thing if we want to preserve our identity for future generations.

Not for Prophet

From The Times: "Special protection orders to save 9-year olds from forced marriages."

http://tinyurl.com/yd7l8kx

This is how far down the path Britain has allowed itself to be dragged by Islam. There is no sense of shock conveyed in the headline that men are "marrying" 9-year olds in Britain today.

And I love the word "forced". What other kind of "marriage" is there to a child?

This is how far the socialists have conspired in our being dragged to acceptance of a backward, cruel, controlling and perverted belief system.

Peter From Maidstone

This morning I recieved some info from Pakistan.

Christians in Pakistan have reported the ordeal of an 11-year-old Christian school girl in the town of Dharema, Punjab province, in October 2009. Nadia Iftikhar was beaten unconscious by the Muslim teacher at her evening coaching school “Bright Future Academy” after she said she was both a Pakistani and a Christian.

Nadia explained the circumstances: “Our teacher was teaching us about the culture of Pakistan and Pakistani people and quoted a sentence from a text book saying ‘We are Pakistani and all of us are Muslims’. At this point I interrupted and said, ‘Madam, I am also a Pakistani, but not a Muslim. Instead I am a Christian.’” Reportedly, the teacher was enraged and began hitting Nadia with a bamboo until, said classmates, the girl briefly lost consciousness. As she beat her young pupil, the teacher is reported to have kept saying that all Pakistanis are Muslims and “You are not a Pakistani but a Christian. Your homeland is somewhere in Europe or America.”

Nadia was taken home and later to the doctor. When interviewed by journalists on 11 October she was bed-ridden and her back was scarred. Nadia’s father, Iftikhar Masih, explained that he could not go to the police about the incident because “I am an impoverished Christian man and am busy working for a daily wage to feed my family.” Being poor and being a Christian are both serious disadvantages for anyone seeking justice from the Pakistani police.

Is this the action of a radicalised Muslim, or of a normal Muslim? I also note that Muslims are burning down churches in Indonesia because Christians are using the word Allah for God (as they have always done), and in Egypt a number of Orthodox Christians have just been killed as they left their Nativity Liturgy. Is it all just the actions of an unrepresentative minority - or is this what Islam is really like?

David Ossitt

daifromwales
January 8th, 2010 6:14pm

“Does anybody here know how I can find out how much energy has been produced by the UK's wind farms over the past 7 days?”

Not to sure; but Radio 4 on PM at 5pm look as though they have at last turned on Gordon Brown, re Wind Farms.

In the news piece that informed us that the six or was it seven contracts that have been agreed today for massive wind farms all to be off shore, the news reader said in a clear voice that Gordon Brown had today announced a spend of XXXXX billion some £1,750 per person in the UK, but that it actually was X million some 15p per person, without a change in tempo he said Gordon claimed this would fill 40% of our power needs but that in reality it would be less than 10%.

Does this mean that the BBC will now correct all of his future lies?

John Richardson

Verity.

You'd be forgiven for thinking so.
Yet, the relevant legislation specifically, explicitly, states no one has the right to enter a home to establish whether there is a television or not.
I understand this important provision to be a vestige of the sort of Legislation free men ( & women) wrote for one another.
A long time ago.
It's implications are very important. It enshrines trust and mutual respect in the contract between the BBC and the
gen public.
Oh stop laughing....those people came from the planet 1950s.
Anyway, as with Lisbon (Parliament CANNOT give away Sovereignty) and MPs expenses (Malfeasance in Public Office)
those old Laws were framed as they are for a reason.
Regards.

phil

Peter From Maidstone
January 8th, 2010 7:51pm--------------Peter that is quite a list you have set for me but I will try

1 Let me deal with Europe first and there we have little choice and in any case so many of our own people work in Europe ,Spain has a huge number although due to economic downturn it has reduced drastically .
---
2 My mind is driven by compassion in the way I decide what for me is right ,therefore repatriation is a very difficult subject.Verity,s choice of words were most unfortunate to say the least ,but I suspect in the dark recesses of many minds people would like to see Britain more British and I must admit to having had similar thoughts ,nevertheless I would not try to throw out those that had come here legally .Those people have the right and we must accept it .Any illegals I would send home wherever that may be, apart from people fleeing persecution and who are suitable for asylum .A SCHEME COULD BE SET UP FOR VOLUNTARY REPATRIATION AT THE BEHEST OF THE IMMIGRANT and not the way verity put it .
------
3 Citizenship would entail a number of years probation ,and would include the necessity of younger people to,learn our language and customs .it would include an agreement to appear in suitable attire in our courts , classrooms ,airports and police stations ,and if no agreement could be reached they would fail the test .Criminality unless very minor would result in failure too .I would also insist on their children attending English Christian schools ,and IF THEY WANTED ETHNIC LESSONS let them do it as we Jewish kids did it, after school and at weekends ,and how most of us hated it ! Their kids need to be taught to love this country before any other ,to be proud to be British and grateful to be taken in as our immigrant families were .There is a prayer in every synagogue every Saturday for the Royal family .All these items are of importance for true citizenship -Having said all that I do not believe we should be thinking that any but a few are abu hamza types .they patently are not .,but the thoughts of some on this wall will certainly make more.
----------------
4 Immigration for the future if I had a choice would be very restricted but I can think of no moral way to throw out those that are here legally ,even if they do not contribute to our society ,sadly they are responsibility ,they were part of our Empire and we are paying heavily now for that .so be it .

Peter I hope I have clarified where I stand and that you may approve ,as for others like the childish mr ossitt as Clarke Gable once said !I don't give a damn .For Verity I have tried in the circumstances to send a polite response now that she acknowledges that I actually exist in the hope that matters might improve ,who knows I will expect nothing and be nicely surprised if they do .regards to you

Rhoda Klapp

daifromwales

For wind generated electricity, try eureferendum dot blogspot dot com. (If you put in a link here it goes to arbitration).

You will find it is next to nothing, as I suppose you expected.

Wilhelm

Phil

Happy New Year

Noa Zrk

Phil.

I regret the need to say it but I've looked in vain in your innumerable posts on this page for the slightest touch of wit or humour in your arguments, something which invariably embellishes captures and strengthens Verity's felicitous posts and cogent arguments.

egh

Came to this rather late - but want to say I agree with Rachael. Well said.

Must say, though, that I remember walking home from school and arguing with my classmates about Enoch Powell: I thought he was right, they didn't. The town was red hot Labour, it's true - and it's in the area that is now most inundated with the alien culture.

phil

Noa Zrk
January 9th, 2010 12:14am ---------------Its because I did not find anything funny in what has been said ,although if you look hard you may find the odd joke. Noah I am not looking for cheers here ,,but I need to retain respect for myself ,that is more important to me than what others may think of me .

phil

Wilhelm
January 9th, 2010 12:00am happy new year to you too

Peter From Maidstone

I am not entirely sure why phil seems to be attracting such a negative press. He doesn't strike me as a troll at all, but does hold views which are different to others here. I don't see that as a problem.

phil, I also hesitate to imagine how repatriation would actually take place. Yet it seems to me that the majority of the British people are not at ease with the numbers of immigrants here and seeking to come here. Something needs to happen.

You speak about people coming here legally, but I have been trying to think about whether actions taken by a government against the will of the people, or with the aim of subverting the people, can be considered legal. The Labour government allowed all these people here but the British people did not consent. Is it therefore a lawful immigration? I am not sure.

We guess that there are a million illegal immigrants here. Should they just be allowed to stay? When does a level of immigration become destabilising and what are we allowed to do about it? It seems reasonable to deport all illegal immigrants and those found to be here without residency rights. It seems reasonable to not allow people to bring extended families from rural Muslim communities in Pakistan just because one family member has paid to have an arranged marriage with a Pakistani girl in the UK. How many people would that reduce the immigrant population by? And it would not touch those that have lived here 'lawfully' for any amount of time.

As for British people in Spain. There are certainly a lot. I am not sure how much they help Spain. I note that 10% of the Spanish population is immigrant. My gran retired to Spain and refused to learn Spanish and rather looked down on all Spaniards. She was rather an example of the sort of immigrant I would not want in Britain.

I am not a xenophobe. When I worked for an Anglo-Finnish company I made great efforts to learn Finnish and speak as much Finnish as I could when I was in Finland. I am trying to learn Arabic, and have some capability in French. I can even use a few Polish greetings. But if Britain is to remain a place where British values are found and where those truly fleeing persecution can find refuge then it must remain substantially British, and those who have values which promote the persecution of others should not be allowed to make a base for their activities here.

You did say that only a few here in the UK share the view of the violent Islamists, yet it is a fact that 160,000+ (10%) Muslims in the UK support suicide bombing. I wonder what percentage of ethnically British people, of whatever Christian faith or none, would condone the indiscriminate killing of men, women and children in any place? Not many I would warrant. There is a difference in values, and we surely need to be careful that those who have values at odds with our own do not prevail.

At the least we need to be asked what level of immigrant population is acceptable - and this must include second and third generation populations. And action needs to be taken to reach that level.

Yet I also hesitate to use repatriation, but perhaps it is necessary. The Israelites were under judgement when they settled down and allowed their own culture to be diluted and corrupted by the pagan peoples around them. Britain was conquered when Vortigern invited the Angeln pirates to support his powerbase for short-term gain. The Roman Empire collapsed as it tried to embrace divergent and incompatible cultures.

If 8.5% of the population in the UK is foreign born, and a large proportion of children are being born to foreign born mothers (25% of all children in London) then it seems to me that we are looking at 15% of the population at least being part of immigrant families. And the rate must be increasing as ethnic British are leaving the UK at an increasing rate.

That is the same as imagining that all of the population of Scotland and Wales was immigrant. How did this happen? How did we allow the population equivalent to that of Scotland and Wales to become immigrant?

Individual migrants are often unwitting in their impact on British culture, but they are still having a negative impact - just as the large communities of unassimilated British immigrants in Spain cannot be good for Spain in the long run. If someone was hurting me, even unwittingly, then it would still be reasonable to use proprotionate means to get them to stop hurting me. So I have to agree with verity, even while avoiding her language, even while I also agree with your desire to be compassionate.

I have a successful acquaintance from a West African country. He makes a positive contribution to the UK. But his family in his home country all want to come here as well because they also want to become rich - as they see it. They are not facing persecution. They are actually doing well in their own country. I can see no reason why they should be allowed to come here. We don't need them, and they are not in need. They are only looking at making money. It seems reasonable to say no to them, and to tell those who are already here that they must go home. Personally it seems reasonable to me to deny entry to anyone claiming asylum who has already passed through several democratic European countries to reach our borders. Whatever their situation if they have reached France they are safe. If they want to travel through France and reach the UK then they are not seeking asylum but personal advantage.

In2minds

David Ossitt @ 8.01pm - Dr Richard North at http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/ has this sort of information. The last time he published a table showing different forms of fuel and their output wind power was 0.2%.

Frank P

Just in case anyone should feel overly optimistic today, as the days begin to noticeably lengthen; the sun glints gloriously off the new layer of pristine snow - as I look from my window, anyway - and clings like tinsel to the yews, cypresses and leylandi, forgive me if I distract you from the seemingly fascinating exponential increasing frequency and column inches of phil's essays (n.), and how he essays!(v.): my scroll key has taken a real bashing of late it seems, perhaps I ought to draw you attention to a piece about the sub-continent, its northern neighbours and other adjacent hell-holes. There does seem to be something brewing in the atmosphere thereabouts that could well make the prognostications of the AGW prognosticators, the AGW deniers, Al Qaeda's antics, Arsenal's chances in the Coop de Yuroop, the price of peas and even phil's posts seem somewhat less than relevant.

http://newsmax.com/deBorchgrave/Borchgrave-Pakistan-Afghanistan-Taliban/2009/12/23/id/344492

What a tangled web is being woven ...

PHIL

Peter From Maidstone
January 9th, 2010 11:00am thanks for the kind comment and for your mighty effort this morning ,I am going out for lunch with some friends (yes I do have them :)) and will reply when I get back ,Noah wants me to find some jokes .I WILL DO MY BEST !!!

phil

JUST FOR NOAH,S ARK ,who prefers a little humour instead of my serious side -any words you do not understand below are Jewish prayers .

Moishe, a Jewish actor is so down and out; he's ready to take any acting gig that he can find.
Finally, he gets a lead, a classified ad that says, "Actor Needed to Play an Ape."
"I could do that," says Moishe.

To his surprise, the employer turns out to be the Central Park Zoo in New York .
Owing to the recent budget cuts and the Great Recession, they can no longer afford to import the ape to replace the recently deceased one, so, until they can, they'll put an actor in an ape suit.

Out of desperation, Moishe takes the offer.
At first, his conscience keeps nagging him, that he is being dishonest by fooling the zoo-goers. Moishe also feels undignified in the ape suit, stared at by the crowds who watch his every move.
But after a few days on the job, he begins to enjoy all the attention and starts to put on a show for all the zoo-goers.
Moishe hangs upside down from the branches by his legs, swinging about on the vines, climbing up the cage walls and roaring with all his might, while beating on his chest.
Soon, he's drawing a sizable crowd.
One day, when Moishe is swinging on the vines to show off to a group of school kids, his hand slips and he goes flying over the fence into the neighboring cage, the lion's den.

Terrified, Moishe backs up as far from the approaching lion as he can, covers his eyes and prays at the top of his lungs: "Shama Yisroel Adonoi Elaheinu, Adonoi Echud!"

The lion opens his powerful jaws and roars the response: "Baruch Shem K'vod Malchuso! L'olam Va'ed"

From a nearby cage, a panda yells, "Shut up you schmucks, you'll get us all fired!”

Peter From Maidstone

Lol! Good joke. I am laughing here.

Verity

Mr Exploding Underpants - from Nigeria but sans passport as he was allowed to board an international flight without one - should be in the ground by now, one dead eunoch.

Instead, he was allowed to lawyer up, and as a result there will unfold a hugely costly trial - with the taxpayers he intended to massacre footing the bill - to come to the foregone conclusion that is suffering from that handy portmanteau condition: insanity. Maybe with a side order of dyslexia.

The same millions are being poured into finding Major Hilal of Ft Hood massacre fame kind of not guiltyish. Major Hilal should also be in the cold, stoney ground by now.

By what tenet of the law - Trumpeter Lanfried, are you there? or any other trial attorneys? - is an individual who tried to commit a public act of murder - and in Hilal's case, actually committed murder with dozens of eye witnesses attending, including some of those he shot who survived - is someone who committed murder before hundreds of witnesses deemed innocent until proved guilty?

This circus of these two is going to eat up years, and millions in public funds that could be better spent elsewhere. And lessen the impact of the shock of what they did. Personally, I think that it part of the plan. Normalise terrorism.

Frank P

P from M

I was almost tempted to read 'phil's' post, just to see whether you are easily amused. But I resisted the temptation, being fully aware of the dangers from past experience, so I shall never know.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Today I listened to BBC Radio 4," Any Questions?" which came from a London Mosque.After this programme I then heard Any Answers? and found some of the responses rather odd. Interestingly, most of the Muslim audience were against the demonstration suggested in Wootton Bassett, finding it horrific and a disgrace.
In principle I am for free speech, however, I believe there are certain civilised decencies which must be observed. For example, I don't think even Nu Labour would allow a parade of naked people gesturing in an obscene manner. What I found at odds were the people, both Moslem and non-Moslem, who whilst detesting the fanatics, believed the march should take place since they knew the good people of Woottan Bassett would quietly ignore them and go about their business. I have a question now. Doesn't this sound odd? Suppose. heaven forbid, a group decided to stage a march past of pigs' heads and an empty coffin representing an Ayatollah past a large Mosque. Would the general public or the authorities expect the worshippers to quietly go about their business and ignore the outrage? To me this seems a rather patronising excuse to allow the Moslems being spared this horrible scene because they would not be able to control themselves in the same calm, Western manner of the citizens of a country town. It seems English, non-Moslem are expected to have higher standards of tolerance and control than others, and the moral appears to be this: If you don't want disgusting things to take place, demonstrate loudly and don't take it sitting down!

David Ossitt

Frank P

“But I resisted the temptation, being fully aware of the dangers from past experience, so I shall never know”

A very wise move; but then you usually are, wise that is.

I must try harder to be more like you, and not to rise to his bait.

Vulture

A Sikh gentleman has just been stabbed to death in Barking, East London after chasing two muggers who had stolen a woman's handbag. The perps are described as black males in their 20s or 30s.

The victim was working over here, but his family live in India. Someone should have warned him before he left that Britain is no longer a civilised nation, but has become a stinking sewer where such events are commonplace.

I have said before that the one advantage of the coming imposition of Sharia law is that the sort of low-lifes who did this will be stoned to death.

To be honest, we have reached such depths of decadence that we thoroughly deserve what's coming to us. A people who cannot defend themselves deserve to perish.

Whatever was once great about Britain bled away into the soil of the Somme and Normandy a very long time ago. What's left is dross.

David Ossitt

Frank P

“But I resisted the temptation, being fully aware of the dangers from past experience, so I shall never know”

A very wise move; but then you usually are, wise that is.

I must try harder to be more like you, and not to rise to his bait.

Verity

Vulture, no suprise that I agree with your thinking, but to be picky, they don't stone thieves. Being buried to the neck, fully conscious, in the sand and then stoned to death by passing pedestrians is reserved for adulterers.

Thieves get their right hand chopped off (the right is chosen because that only leaves the left hand, which is unclean, for eating with - which is an ancillary punishment).

Murderers get put to death.

phil

Peter,had a great lunch , and some good discussion which made me realise that there are normal people still around .Much of your writing I either agree with and/ or have already answered I think
---------
Repatriation we are agreed ,something may be done but at the immigrants behest if they are legal .
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We elected our government and must take responsibility for their actions ,we can vote them out and soon I hope
------------------
I would like to think we can export the illegals but how I have no idea ,maybe some of the smart guys here will stand on street corners shouting "bugger off" and thumbing their noses at them ,I am a bit more pragmatic than them and assume it would not work:)
One man ,one wife and their children are enough for me .relatives definitely not unless it is a case of real asylum .
-----------------------------------
There is a difference in Spain in as much as the Brits on the whole get on with the Spanish people ,many work and certainly spend huge amounts to help the economy -Spain would be in great difficulties if they left and that is happening now due to the economic downturn and the virtual finish of the building trade which took so many Brits to Spain .You know I am no xenophobe ,so enough said for this week .
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You say"I wonder what percentage of ethnically British people, of whatever Christian faith or none, would condone the indiscriminate killing of men, women and children in any place? Not many I would warrant. There is a difference in values, and we surely need to be careful that those who have values at odds with our own do not prevail." Until this week I would have thought they could be counted on the fingers of one hand ,but I have been shocked at some of the reactions that I have seen here ,and although I do not harbour thoughts that I have been corresponding with killers ,I also thought they were mainly frustrated but gentle souls and I have been proved wrong there ,so who knows ?
--
I am confused as to what it is you agree with verity ,she has stated clearly her objectives ,kick them out all of them if possible (which it is not)and I am particularly reminded of what has been attributed to Pastor Niemohler ,it happened not that long ago and you can be sure it can happen easily again ..I have a goodly number of German friends whose grandparents never thought it could happen ,they are not fooled now and their country is a leader in tolerance .
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PETER I think after this week I am entitled to a little amusement and I have had a good smile today ,a small ostrich and an old sycophant have been corresponding with one another here about me and although the old one doesn't read past the first line someone can tell him I enjoyed his joke .,even though he does not like mine ---Oh and you would find it very interesting to find out who tells the truth here ,just type in Bill Ayers in your browser and check the wikipedia info ,its a fascinating story of its own ,but it will also show you how facts get distorted by a certain writer here .
-Meanwhile thank you for an interesting discussion and the feeling that there are still many fine people around .

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Verity: The left hand should be removed too, then they csn't even wipe the 'exploding' bottom! Sorry for being rude, but this long cold spell needs some cheery spirit.

Verity

AWK1 - You make a very combustive point.

Wilhelm

Vulture

'' The two muggers are described as black.''

I notice the BBC, ITN, SKY news are very, very cagey NOT to describe them as black. In American TV news, they always mention their ethnicity.

Verity

Re the panty explosive dude (if he's still a dude, that is; we haven't really been kept informed), apparently he was "singing like a canary", giving away critical information, before Obama decided he should be tried as a common criminal and he was advised of his Miranda rights. (That's the right of the accused to remain silent.) He had already said he knew of over 20 other young terrorists being trained in bombing an aircraft.

http://tinyurl.com/yatseso

This absolutely beggars belief, although it confirms what many hundreds of thousands of people suspect about Obama.

David Ossitt

Anne Wotana Kaye 1
January 9th, 2010 4:22pm

“What I found at odds were the people, both Moslem and non-Moslem, who whilst detesting the fanatics, believed the march should take place since they knew the good people of Woottan Bassett would quietly ignore them and go about their business. I have a question now. Doesn't this sound odd?”

Anne I too listened to today; to BBC Radio 4," Any Questions?" and then heard the Any Answers? That followed shortly after.

I was at the same time cleaning down our kitchen, in preparation for our trusty painter and decorator who will start prompt on Monday at 8.30am. (My dear wife; thinks that I am mad to have done so, but I think that I do a better job of preparation).

But I digress; I too found this very odd, and do not agree with this consensus, but in truth I found the whole program quite disturbing, I felt that the labour chap was less than frank and honest in his answers and opinions and I do not forgive him for the cavalier use of office expenses, and the creepy liberal used his every answer, as an opportunity to ingratiate himself with the audience in his own particularly smarmy manner, but the cause of my disquiet was probably the fact that Polly Toynbee was on the panel.

Some people have the ability to bring forth light and brighten your day, others less so, but Polly Toynbee casts a dark and dreary cloud wherever she goes.

Rhoda Klapp

"We elected our government and must take responsibility for their actions ,we can vote them out and soon I hope"

Well, there used to be some sort of thing relating to manifestos and mandates. No party ever asked for a mandate to increase immigration. They did it anyway. As they usually do. I don't accept any responsibility for that. Unless I have a right and duty to oppose unmandated actions of the government, in the extreme case? Incidentally, I think that parliament never had a mandate to ship its responsibility for law-making to a foreign power. What am I supposed to do about that?

Peter From Maidstone

I'm with Rhoda. Most everything that Labour has done has not been the subject of a manifesto or been mandated by the people. Indeed since the majority of English people did not vote for Labour at all it seems only reasonable that all un-mandated immigrants be sent to a country in the United Kingdom which did give Labour a majority vote. Somewhere like Wales.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

David Ossitt: Agree with you completely. However, felt Hannan let us down, perhaps Polly Toynby depressed him. She is awful. Good luck with the painting. In the old days when I had a cleaner, I used to clean up before her arrival.

Peter From Maidstone

When my wife wasn't well during one of her pregnancies I arranged a cleaner to come in, and as you describe AWK, she used to tidy and clean everything before the cleaner came in. I also arranged for someone to come in and do some ironing and she would re-iron everything that had been done afterwards. So I stopped both of those as being a waste of money.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Peter from Maidstone: Good evening, Peter. Reading your posting, I wonder if only women do these strange tasks. Do men make double work too? I'm closing the laptop, so goodnight to you all.

Verity

Rhoda K makes a very well observed point.

Frank P

Verity

You question whether the pantybomber is still 'a dude'. You also mention that he was 'singing like a canary'. Perhaps the latter explains the former. It is a clinical fact that when the cojones are removed (whether by scalpel, bullet or auto-barbeque) the voice tends to suddenly assume a much higher pitch. However, once Obarmy assigned him a shyster, he was struck dumb. So, for the time being, your question remains unanswered. Incidentally have you noticed how much the possibly neutered Nigerian resembles Tiger Woods - who also, allegedly, has explosive material concealed in his underpants?

Derek

"Our country is then only a few steps away from despotism, with the final arbiter of what is "constitutional" as the supreme dictator."

May I refer the CH to the American Thinker site from which the foregoing is taken. It is the closing comment of the writer's thoughts on the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798. It considers the arguments and principles adduced then to the United States as it finds itself today.

Essentially the same debate is beginning to be conducted in the United Kingdom as to the power of government to transfer to others rights which are vested in the people.

The article is by Daniel Baker at http://www.americanthinker.com/ The author's view is that the states need to be willing to nullify unconstitutional laws.

Who will nullify ours?

egh

Yes, Rhoda. I'm not at all sure we voted them in; and I'm very worried about how to vote them out now. I simply don't trust either the candidates or the ballot system.

And again, if I vote I'd like at least a choice between commie and non-commie; euro and non-euro; immigrant and indigene ....
What am I supposed to do about that?

Just accept whoever talks the least claptrap about the tax they'll force me to pay? (I never agreed that they should give so much of it to the euSSR, anyway)

Just accept that what matters is that the candidate should be female? (I never believed in feminism anyway)

Just accept that the NHS is our most precious institution? (I never agreed that it should be run by foreigners and anti-Christians for foreigners and anti-Brits - or that it should abuse and kill our own people anyway)

daniel maris

Frank P -

I've noticed how racists are unable to tell black Africans apart - or at least claim to be unable to do so, for its offensive effect.

However, as they say...that brings me on to my topic.

Take a look at the Mail on Sunday site - they have an article about a man arrested for an allegedly offensive statement on a council website about p*k**s - sometimes known as travellers.

Arrested among his family on a Sunday afternoon and taken to the police station and held for four hours.

Do you think you could get the Police out on a Sunday afternoon if your house was being egged by local hooligans or if you'd just found a burglar on the premises? No, neither do I.

What sort of society are we living in?

Certainly not a free one.

Have I committed some sort of offence with this post? Will I receive a visit from the Police, have my DNA taken and be held for four hours?

Verity

Frank P - funny post, but I wouldn't be able to nail Tiger Woods in a line up. I suspect he is more of a guy thing. I have never heard a woman say the words, "Tiger Woods".

Paul B

AWK- I used to clean up before her arrival.

I don`t have a cleaner (Mrs B & I are the unpaid cleaners, cooks and bottle washers) but whenever I stay in a hotel, I have to clean up and make my bed. I feel embarrased otherwise. Its a condition my 16 year old daughter does not share with me.

Nicholas

daniel maris, the worst thing about that case is not just that the wrong person was arrested, but that he was arrested for what the council thought his employee wrote rather than what he actually wrote. He wrote a word that rhymed with the "offensive" word in an ambiguous way. Is travelling a race - or just a lifestyle? That the police can waste time and money on this is incredible but they have set up special units (Sigma units) to pursue hate crime apparently indiscriminately and as I have observed before their odd SOP requires arrest before enquiries rather than the other way round as it always used to be. He was even handcuffed by them in front of his wife and children.

http://tinyurl.com/ycl7dqm

I think that government and police are doing these things quite deliberately to desensitise and cower the population. As in East Germany people will become too frightened to say or write anything, or to protest against anything in case they are arrested for it.

A council spokesman said: “As far as we were concerned it was an offensive comment, so we got in touch with the police.” So much for freedom of expression, freedom of speech. Within the two words "offensive comment" lies a whole world of censorship and repression. Truly New Labour are responsible for an age of madness in Britain.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Daniel Maris: Hi There, It's a serious matter and not a joke. When I used to blog on Nick Robinson's pages on the BBC site, I was reported and removed for breaking House Rules. I wrote a posting, stating I wouldn't donate to a Roumanian charity, as I remembered the Iron Guard in World War II, and I felt the country was still rascist concerning gypsies and others. I especially was against the cruel way they neglected the orphans and unwanted children. I was not only kicked out of the forums, but warned that I was a rascist. Now, I see the BBC showing filma and broadcasting about the plight of the children. We have the Thought Police already here, let's hope this government gets out soon or we will have even worse.

Vulture

@David Ossitt - You are absolutely bang on re. La Toynbee.

I once briefly worked in a theatre where it was said of a (now long forgotten) leftie playwright that whenever he entered the room the temperature went down.

Some people, as you say, just carry an aura of gloom around with them. I have the misfortune to live in a town where squillionaire socialist Poll has one of her three homes and I've seen her a couple of times. On both occasions she was with kids ( I assume her unfortunate grandchildren) and she looked, as they say, as if she was weaned on a pickle. A tiny dark cloud hovered permanantly over her.

It may have something to do with the fact that she has no lips. (Her smiley mugshot on the Guardian looks grotesque, as do Bruin's smiley shots). Kenneth Branagh has the same anatomical peculiarity. If you watch him tonight on TV playing the gloomy Swedish cop Wallander you'll see what I mean - and he's only acting. Polly does it for real. I wonder if she's ever been kissed?

She is a peculiarly joyless person and her mission in life is to make sure everyone else is as miserable as she is - come to think of it, rather like her fallen idol Gordon Bruin.

David Ossitt

daniel maris
January 10th, 2010 3:11am

“Have I committed some sort of offence with this post? Will I receive a visit from the Police, have my DNA taken and be held for four hours?”

No; of course you have not given offence, not at all, not in any way, however you might find that you receive an adverse comment to your post from phil.

David Ossitt

daniel maris
January 10th, 2010 3:11am

“Have I committed some sort of offence with this post? Will I receive a visit from the Police, have my DNA taken and be held for four hours?”

No; of course you have not given offence, not at all, not in any way, however you might find that you receive an adverse comment to your post from phil.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

I think the originator of Desert Island Discs, who I believe was the wonderful Roy Plomley, wouldn't be happy at the way the programme is being run.
Once there were a wide variety of really interesting people, and the records they selected were a joy to hear. Now, we have the well-spoken, articulate Kirsty Young, but has anybody else noticed how retricted she is in her choice of those being sent off to that island? Instead of making sure everybody in multicultural, diverse Britain has a chance to participate, it seems that "gay" people get a greater chance of participating than straights. Is this a decision by the BBC or is Young discriminating unfairly against a large percentage of listeners?
-----------------------------
I sent this off to the BBC just now. I wonder if it will be answered, despite using their "buzz" words.

phil

Daniel maris
January 10th, 2010 3:11am-Rest easy Daniel ,I see the ridiculous ostrich is worried that I might let you have a penfull and there lies his problem -his capacity to understand is woeful even though his ability to amuse me is enormous .You usually make powerful points and I note in the same post you let the sycophant know his remarks about blacks were unwelcome but his "style" has remained unchanged for years .Sorry to disappoint the silly man aka ostrich, but I applaud your common sense .,but as I do not address him any more you could oblige me and ask him to stop sending all his rubbish twice every time .:)

Nicholas

Anne I think the BBC is very discriminatory in its programming, especially tending towards ageism, but in respect of DID I suspect they would argue it is "positive discrimination" in the sense that Harmon uses.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Nicholas: Yes. That wretched Hardperson has her fist in every pie,so I am sure you are right

Verity

"Positive discrimination" is an outmoded, stale American manipulation of language left over from the early '80s. Sometimes, the Beeb and the left don't realise that these terms they copy have long been discredited and discarded. So sad, really. But wanabees are always sad, don't you think?

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Verity: The BBC think they are so "cool". They have slightly progressed from Stalin, Goebbels and the Stassi, but not too much.

phil

Rhoda Klapp
January 9th, 2010 8:12pm I see you quoted my comment,and I think I gave a reasonable solution ,although I do understand your pain .A government can obviously stay in power for up to 5 years and inevitably circumstances will change ensuring they must be flexible .I do not approve of the immigration that has taken place just as much as you and in fact I did not vote for labour ,but it is my government and if we are to remain democratic I must accept our rules .
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This week I seem to have been in a minority not because I disagree with those that are fed up with what has happened to us but because I despise the language that has been used ,what do you think I should do ?-I can answer that for you ,complain and make my feelings heard and that is what you can do too.I know what I would like to do ,throw the offender in the stocks and throw rotten fruit at her but I cannot can I ?:),--so you are in a far better position than me ,unless she turns up at Hyde park corner and reveals herself ,but I do not think she would last very long there.-she would be covered in tomatoes and egg yoke before I got there . You can vote and like me you no doubt will , you may get a result but I wont will I ?-not unless the Indians relent and let her in .I can but pray ,but she would not last long there either .So Rhoda do not fret there are some worse off than you :)

phil

'I've had bad luck with both my wives.

The first one left me, and the second one didn't.'

James Holt McGavra -whose second wife was called -ok David B I WILL NOT SAY IT !!:)-JUST ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO GET A SMILE FROM NOAH

daifromwales

Re: Rother Council amd East Sussex Police.

I've just stuck my neck out and asked the latter for a list of words which I may not use in case they are non-PC or sound like words which are not PC. I realise now how foolish I have been. I heard Rene on "ello-ello" this lunchtime (sad, I know!) using the word "didicoy". I'll be in real trouble now for repeating such stuff if the Stasi read this...

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

daifromwales: One lives and learns. I am learning new words every day from partaking of "The Spectator" blogs. How fortunate I am not a fan of "The Mirror" or some other tabloid. Now I can abuse everybody in Proper Pinglish! I missed 'Ello! 'Ello! today.

Noa Zrk

Well, Phil, homourous? You're trying; yes, you are, trying.

Peter From Maidstone

phil, you did ask in what sense I agreed with Verity. I guess it is that I do believe that the levels of immigration are unsustainably high and that the numbers of recent immigrants are dangerously high for the stability and security of British culture and society. So I entirely agree with her that large numbers do need to be encouraged to return to their homelands. I suppose that where I diverge from her approach is that I would want to use a greater degree of compassion (though I do not mean that as a judgement on Verity herself, just her proposed methodology of saying 'bugger off'). On the other hand it is not compassionate for either our own children or those of immigrant families to allow a situation of societal and cultural breakdown and conflict to develop. Therefore it seems to me that though there might be unhappiness for a family being asked to go home (perhaps with funding), this is, I suggest, better than the unhappiness of finding British society becoming more conflict ridden.

The present Government is of course already running a voluntary repatriation scheme and is already forcibly removing people. The question is rather then one of numbers and categories not principles.

phil

Peter From Maidstone----Peter ,it has taken quite some time ,but I think we have been at virtually the same position from the outset ,even though I would not like to be one that is asked to leave ,could you imagine if it was you being asked to leave a club for instance ?-
-----------------
As far as verity is concerned ,and I wish to make my position clear, it is because so much of this thread has become about my disagreement with her post and not because I wish to attack her .Her opinions have appalled me for years ,not just this week ,and not just on this subject ,She used to post on Melanie,s threads but I think other posters made their feeling known very clearly and she disappeared .I know she has a brain ,but she also has a tongue that cannot be controlled ,sarcasm and superciliousness pervade anything she has to say along with a dislike of too many ethnic people ,as she has said before she wants to withdraw to an "anglosphere".Here on this wall she seems to be in her element .
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I admit her style has its admirers like the amazing frank p ,who always starts any remarks about me by saying he hasn't read a word ,yet knows everything I have said :).others who have been made aware that I do not approve of their attitude immediately write a post to praise her regardless of what she has posted -it could have been united 2 arsenal 1 and they would heap praise :)-I do not have any objections to those who have different views to me except when it becomes a Punch and Judy at the expense of other ethnic groups ,and that includes those that I may not like -why? because next time it could be my group and that is why I mentioned the words of Pastor Niehmoller .
--------------------------
If I may say without being patronising ,you have shone here this week ,shown that you are a gentleman ,and I am grateful that we have been able to exchange our thoughts .

phil

Noa Zrk
January 10th, 2010 7:44pm Come on Noah lets have a smile -lets see those dimples .I.m not all that bad --I know wait for the chorus phil ,"yes you are " ;)

phil

Vulture
January 12th, 2010 12:20pm I spend some of my time in Spain and I can assure you we are treated kindly and with respect when we try to learn some Spanish and acknowledge that it is their country and that we will conform to their customs .They are suffering badly from the recession and particularly from the lessening of tourism and building ,but I have never heard one word to say "Brits get out " or take our possessions and sell them off ,nor take pictures of the iris so as we cannot get back..Those that have passed on are buried in a wall and treated respectfully by the Spanish people . I do not know how far I can go to show my disgust for the words of this woman ,maybe she is just a lonely person who feels sensationalism will bring her friends, but perhaps asking her to keep her opinions to herself if she does not intend to pay our taxes and community charges would be a start .I do not know how many countries on this planet she wishes to run or give the benefit of her knowledge to ,but with a bit of luck she will try an Arab country and then many of our problems will be resolved :)
------------------
You are concerned that some of us could be called racist because we wish to limit immigration ,in my opinion,for what its worth ,that is far from the truth .We do not wish to be overrun both in numbers but also by a different culture that will not integrate and we are concerned also that we have amongst us even now, many that would answer that description.To be racist one has to hate and wish to do harm .I do not,and I suspect neither do you ,but I would be happy to see the illegals go and the legals that do not wish to conform to our ways be offered a way out rather than told to "bugger off" and then take their possessions .