Why winning isn't enough – and a response to The Fink

In2minds

Tory party? What Tory party?

Rory the Deplorable

Enjoyed this, complemented by your perceptive article in The Times. The country is crying out for a true leader to emerge, not a Blair lite. I am just not so sure that the majority of those within the Westminster village fully appreciate it.

Tiberius

Fraser; you don't mention anywhere the mindset of our electorate, too much of which is still far too wrapped up in the New Labour comfort blanket to embrace radical economic policy. Government does not come by appealing to a constituency that does not exist. Labour at least acknowledged this under Kinnock, but the Tories didn't presentationally at least until Cameron.

As for contradiction: you seem to be saying that you agree radicalism would have cost Mrs Thatcher a second term if it had not been for the Falklands war. Assuming no such event which can help Cameron in the same way is forseeable, why would he choose to blow his chance before he's even started?

You'll not be surprised that I'm with Danny.

Rachael

Hear, hear, Fraser!

What on earth is going on?

Cameron should be riding the wave of public opinion against public spending and yet is choosing to be crushed underneath it.

The only difference I can see between Fraser Nelson and Simon Heffer is one of tone. Mr Nelson is willing to put some things down to teething difficulties and tries the softly softly approach. Mr Heffer does not see it as his job to babysit Dave and Little George, for he fears this is no time for an apprentice.

Here is Mr Heffer just this week: “No one underestimates the political difficulty of cutting spending. However, this is one of those rare moments – I cannot think of another since the late 1970s – when there is a consensus that the game is up, and the electorate will tolerate huge reductions in spending.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/simonheffer/7140953/The-only-economic-advice-the-Tories-need---cut-spending.html

How can Dave and Co not get it?

The goal is open. The crowd is virtually sucking the ball in and Dave and Little George are just lost on that big pitch and stand frozen like rabbits in the headlights. The one time when the crowd is likely to be with them and they flunk it.

Stop writing, Fraser. Bang your head against a brick wall. It would be just as productive.

How ironic that we have a poster with Dave on it that reads: “We can’t go on like this.” You’re telling me, Dave. You really can’t.

Kay Tie

Is the Bear Minimum related to the Bear Necessities of Disney Jungle Book fame?

michael m

I would like to see Fraser get on a soap box in any Town Centre and call for cuts in the NHS. If he has the nerve, I would suggest he warns the local A&E beforehand that they can expect his admission soon after he started talking. Does he really think anyone in their right mind is going to advocate "cuts" and hope to get any chance of election?

DavidDP

"Why winning isn't enough"

Yeah, it's so much better to be in ideologically pure opposition, while your opponents play merry hell with the country.

After all, it worked well for Labour. Oh.

If people aren't listening to you, Fraser, the answer is not to shout louder. You sometimes have to accept that the message needs to be changed and reframed.

El Sid

Hear, hear Fraser - we need more of this. In particular the Tories need to start explaining where the growth is going to come from. Not only is that an economic necessity that Brown is ignoring/relying on the fairies to bring, it would bring a sense of hope that is so lacking from the Tory message at the moment, something for people to engage with at an emotional level. Keep it up.

workie ticket

Fraser,

I agree that 'winning is not enough', its what you do with the prize once won. There are, I believe, some clear limits to what Cameron will do should he win, no matter how radical his fans may claim he is or will be. The main issue, of course, is Europe, or as Dave calls it 'Banging on about Europe' whether its yesterday's Green Paper punting the idea of greater cooperation with France (!I didnt realise they were allies!)in the military field (allegedly to save costs) or with greater European controls over the City.

But first things first. Domestically he has a gigantic job on his hands if he really is of a radical bent. There needs to be a huge ideoligical purging of public bodies. Anyone working in the Civil Service, NHS, Agencies, or the multitude of unaccountable quangos knows only too well the criminal waste of time and money to be found in every corner. Reducing the deficit would be relatively simple with the proceeds which leads me on to my main point. Not being a political insider, I have to rely on you journalists write and what I see is that Cameron and Osbourne form a tiny clique which excludes even Shadow Cabinet colleagues. I've seen this mentioned more than once.

If this is true, how are we possibly to believe that he can co-opt enough support even within the Parliamentary party for the massive reconstruction job that needs to be done much less the party or country as a whole? When Team Cameron finally descend from Olympus to contest the election do they think - like Blair - that simply issuing radical edicts will get things done? Recent history tells us otherwise.

Bloody Bill Brock

David Cameron has not always suited an old style Tory like myself. However, his liberal appeal, gays, trees, polar bears ect, has at least got some purchase with the Ministry of Truth (BBC). As I said the other day, they dont spit on the floor of the studio having uttered the word Conservative any more. Turning right at election time has hobbled the Tories to many times in recent years, so DC needs to be careful. More of yesterdays performance, showing Brown up for the lying dishonest hypocrite he is will help no end. Also there is so much ammunition.

Short the UK

I am despairing ever more over Team Cameron, I am delighted to see you Fraser and Iain Martin give them some penetrating analysis.

To me it crystallies like this:

The Tories = Innocent Smoothies.

Old Labour = Brillo Pads.

Innocent Smoothies = vapid & expensive.

Brillo Pads - old fashioned & last resort.

The Tories must market themselves like Cillit Bang.

Cillit Bang = does the job & modern.

I love the Edward Heath analogy. Maybe William Hague will takeover from Team Cameron when it fails.

Sir Graphus

the phrase "bear minimum" presumably worked better in your speech than it does in print.

The thrust of what you say is OK, but Cameron must ride the fine line between being radical and scaring the horses.

Chris

>Danny points out that Thatcher increased NHS spending – and, indeed, she did. But it was the bear minimum...

That would be what Baloo did, not Thatcher -'It's just the bear necessities, the simple bear necessities...'

prm

"bear minimum". Oops.

strapworld

Mr Nelson, Congratulations. At last someone has shouted it out loud and clear. As for your overlong explanation to Finklestein, May I ask the question, Is this man the source of all conservatism thought? If so count me out! He, as far as I am concerned, is a self opinionated man who must be in self denial that the Conservative Party has not come running for him. Forget about him, Mr Nelson, and keep up speaking for the majority of Conservatives that want Cameron to actually prove to them that he is a Conservative and not a Labour plant!

You pose the question in your last paragraph "I hope Cameron will listen to the better angels of his nature" Sadly I doubt if Cameron listens to anyone! I do hope I am wrong.

Alanbrooke

Fraser

whether winning is enough or not you appear to have forgotten that you have to win in the first place.

Your recent tirades against Cameron will remain just that if the Tories remain in opposition in the GE. Standing neutered on the sidelines is frankly no fun.

The fact remains that until this disaster of a government is actually removed all thoughts on what Cameron should do are just pie in the sky - interesting for the commentariat but ultimately conjecture.

If Cameron is PM then by all means take him to task, but with 90 days to go wouldn't your magazine's time be better spent get Brown buried at a crossroads with a silver stake in his heart and in a garlic coffin ?

You are dictating the peace terms before you have fought a battle.

Tim J

Up to a point Fraser! There is no question surely that Thatcher hid quite a lot of her policies prior to the '70 election. Having Jim Prior as Employment Minister for example - that was hardly a signal that dramatic confrontations with the Unions were ahead was it?

denis cooper

Cameron may be the best choice among the present MPs, but what does that say about the calibre of the rest? Can a nation of 60 million really find nobody better than Cameron to head its government? Doesn't it suggest that our political system is seriously defective, if he's the best that it can supply?

oldman

"bear" minimum.. oh dear........

Number7

Fair play Fraser, Some very pertinent, constructive criticism which probably shows why the Polls are narrowing.

I have critcised you in the past, in this instance I give you a round of applause.

Watt Tyler

@Tiberius
"Fraser; you don't mention anywhere the mindset of our electorate, too much of which is still far too wrapped up in the New Labour comfort blanket to embrace radical economic policy."

It is a mistake to think this, and a mistake that the Tories seem to be making.

Fitalass

Fraser, where is your plan to be elected to government in all of this? Is it a 'well lets offer them this, if they don't vote for it, five more years of Brown and Labour'?

I also think that you miss out on the main point, Cameron and Osborne are being honest with the electorate, but they are also being politically savvy and realistic too. Traits that Thatcher also possessed and used to great effect in her own journey to power. So often forgotten unfortunately. We face huge uncharted waters with the current economic climate and our deficit. The public are not stupid, they know that their public services are going to be slashed. And we have to turn away from being a nation with a maxed out credit card, and instead we must pay down debt, live within our means and learn to save again.

And by the way, its Brown and Darling now following Cameron and Osborne's agenda. And it has been for a while. So a bit disingenuous with that claim that it is the other way around.

Why bother getting into stupid spats over Labour's attempt to wrong foot them with policies like the 50p tax rate in the middle of it all? Its froth to be honest.
Pick your political fights wisely.

Osborne stood up at last years Conference and said he would freeze public salaries and raise the age of retirement. But he and Cameron also realise that when times are tough, the public cling to the more important things in life, and that is why the NHS is sacred from the cradle to the grave. And he did so in the face of Brown's claim of investments vs cuts. Now Brown has to issue the dreaded C word too.

You are great when talking about the numbers, but you so often don't gel it well with the political considerations that must go hand in hand with your message. I suspect that is because you too often talk to the converted or faithful. You don't have to sell your views at the ballot box as it were. Cameron and Osborne do the politics better. And for these men to possible be looking at forming a government in a matter of weeks, and still with less than 200 MP's at present, that is quite an achievement.

But they must produce a manifesto that they can sell to the voters to give them a solid mandate to govern this nation, and its got to be practical and deliverable. Its not just the economy that is broken, Parliament and politics are broken too. And trust and honesty desperately need to be restored.

John

No applause from me.
Your self indulgent, armchair criticism of Cameron is feeding the media narrative, gleefully quoted by Brown, Mandelson and their stooges in the press.
Do you really think that at this stage before an election Cameron can change his mind on half a dozen issues?
Stick to your comfort zone in journalism; you'll never be a man who could get elected to anything.

Naomi Muse

Sounds like you and Danny are having a spat like Cameron and Broon, but both spats are a bit too far from reality and the electorate.

Your point that Cameron and Co are apparently adopting many Labour policies seems right, but, why would they do that?

We need proper leaders and none of the current batch of career politicians shows an ounce of leadership or true conviction, or a dedication to doing what is right for the country.

We've seen again today that 52% of MPs (even by the disputed Legg's analysis) were taking more than they should as expenses.

Also, that there appears to be a bit of a gravy train for MPs hosting dinners and lunches for companies in which they have an interest, only the tip of the iceberg as yet, but there will be more to come.

We've also seen that even those paid and putting the MPs expenses issue right have not been as direct and simple as the statement signed by all MPs about expenses:

All of these expenses arise solely in order for me to do my job as an MP'

They haven't sorted it. It will rumble on.

A good opposition leader would have clobbered the government with a clean and clear slash and burn of anyone who was not doing precisely that.

Sadly we don't have any leaders currently in parliament and I hope that none of the existing cabinet and shadow cabinet is re-elected.

If that happens, we can start again with a truly clean slate.

Irene

Winning is EVERYTHING - you can do sxd all in opposition.
I might be alone in this but I think Cameron/Osborne are pulling their punches until they get in.
Then all hell will break loose.

Frank P

Why is a SDP apostate driving the agenda here? His sobriquet is unfortunate, to say the least, whose idea was it to label him a Mafia snitch? His effete punditry on TV is hardly reassuring.

Has it come to this? The only viable alternative to a Marxist inspired Government is a party being led by a political neophyte from the PR industry, a man invented as a Tory leader by an American pollster an alumnus of his old Oxbridge college) and advised by a reject from a party of political mongrels that changed its name out of sheer embarrassment.

If the Tory party can no longer find a battle-hardened leader with advisors from its own ranks of true=blues, why should Conservative voters turn out on Election Day to vote for it? If the only reason is “to get rid of the other batch of bastards” it bodes ill for the future of our country

TGF UKIP

Ah! The penny drops at last. Tiberius you ARE Daft Danny masquerading as a boring old W. Midlands accountant and I hereby claim my prize.

Yosemite Sam

I am fairly sad and depressed by the way in which Tory stalwarts are acting at the moment. I first voted in 1959 (Labour), I have moved right ever since - and I am pretty right wing on many issues. I could give Fraser a run for his money! But one thing I have observed over the years is that you have to go with the grain of public opinion if you wish to be elected. Cameron has his faults - but he has taken us nearer to election victory than Hague, or IDS, or Howard. Fraser identifies Camerons peril as being locked into Labours policies (perhaps Fraser has forgotten that in 1997 G Brown Esq locked himself into Tory policies for two years - and stuck to them rigidly). Of course, this is dangerous but not terminally so: the 50p tax is temporary, Lord Stern is a non-issue, Climate Change Act so what is Cameron to do? Of your list, the two difficult ones are the NHS and DFID. Of these the elephant is the NHS. Cameron cannot be elected if he says that he will cut expenditure on the NHS. FULL STOP. He has promised to ring fence it from cuts - an unwise promise which those of us who have worked in the NHS know to be unwise. What he should have said was he would ring fence 'core' NHS from cuts. Core NHS is A+E, GP services, Secondary and tertiary Hospital care, but not dentistry, audiology, domiciliary services, public health, medical education and research. Camerons fault, if you can describe it as such, is not being nuanced enough about what he promises - but give him some slack!

stephen

Many years ago, in a bye gone era when Tories were Tories not Flip Floppers, Nigel Lawson gave a speech at the Carlton Club, warning against the dangers of "stealing his opponents clothes" he and Mrs T went on to put a lot of clear Blue water between themselves and Windbag/Flip Flopper Kinnock. Sadly our Dave has still to prove he has the steel of the Iron Lady and don't even think of comparing Lawson with Boy George! God help us we could be in for another 5 years of socialism under Gordon and his fellow travelling Lib Dems!

Holly ......

The problem with politics is,the electorate.
We put them there one way or another.
We will stick to the present bunch & return
them,just like we always do.
Then we will have the likes of Fraser & his buddies telling us how 'bad' or 'good' they are.Acording to them.
We in turn will slate the likes of Fraser,
for writing such stuff,agreeing or
disagreeing with them,depending on our own political leanings.
After the election there will still be a Labour, Tory & Lib Dem party,so what the heck are we on about?
After all the things the politicians have done over history, we always vote for the same old bunch.
Why should they act any differently,from how we let them.
The very best outcome for the likes of Fraser and his gang of merry Cameron bashers
would be a completely new party in power.
One that shuts them up completely,shuts them down and gives the voice back to us.
I for one am sick of hearing the same boring stuff from these so called journalists.
Why would it be better if Cameron was saying
all the things that the journalists wanted to hear? Is that what they have come to
expect?
That is how the Blair/Campbell/Mandelson machine worked & we don't like that much anymore now do we.
The Journalists could not get enough of old Tone.Turns out the public knew he was a slimy,lying dog, but hey,the journalists lapped up his every word. Still do.
From a nation of 60 million", is todays journalists/MSM the best we can do?
If so we are in real trouble.

Chris Bates

The main problem with the current debate on government spending is the focus on inputs (ie spending) rather than outcomes or outputs. Clearly unless the public sector is operating at 100% efficiency and 100% productivity savings in spending can be generated.

The Conservative Party needs to re-focus the debate onto outputs and outcomes. Why is it wrong the deliver the same level of service (or an improved service) at say £40 billion rather than £50 billion? After all consumers do it all the time. Who would prefer to buy the same pint of beer at £3 rather than £1.50?

TGF UKIP

Brilliant, Fraser, just brilliant and I heartily commend all Coffee Housers to read and print off the full speech. The excerpts above do not do it justice. It almost makes me feel apologetic and embarrassed over all my taunts and wind-ups over the months - but only almost.

For we end up as we always do, Fraser, with Dave. If you genuinely mean all you say about the lion within, then you are flying in the face of all the evidence which is there in spades over again and so explicitly. "I am a One Nation relatively liberal conservative" who wants "a more equal, fairer, greener society." In short a patrician Ken Clarke with added political correctness. And that's without even mentioning Osborne or Hilton.

As it is,though, I think you know exactly who and what Cameron is and just why he is such a dangerous disaster for the Conservative Party. We all have our boundaries beyond which we cannot speak though, don't we Fraser.

Nicholas

Yes, yes. But where is that Neathergate post you promised us?

Promising is not enough.

John.D

All I can say is that with an imagination like this you should start writing fantasy fiction novels.

TGF UKIP

Denis Cooper, "Can a nation of 60 million really find nobody better than Cameron to head its government?" Well how about Fraser Nelson, Denis?

All the right, and Right, ideas; extremely articulate, telegenic and persuasive as well as being economically literate and able to suffer fools gladly as this blogsite daily demonstrates. All he would have to do is bury his Scottish antecedents - shall we start a draft Fraser Nelson movement?

Tiberius

Watt Tyler: some reasoning behind that rather bald statement would be helpful.

TGF: I only wish DF could join me in enjoying a few pints of Shropshire's finest cask ale this evening. He'd be more successful than me in convincing my sceptical friends of the Cameron project's worth.

Roland

Fraser, Your lecture was very timely and it needed saying.

Well done...... and when can you take over from Steve Hilton ?!

echo34

you lot do make me chuckle.

Someone tell where the tories get their forecast figures from?

Couldn't be the labour led treasury could it?

How you can set out a budgetary manifesto on the featherbed of lies produced?

Get away from the figures and start thinking about your lives in the uk right now.

Happy?

Stop focusing on what the labour party is dripfeeding you and think about how you want things like schools, the health service and military run.

It's like they've bunged you a maths project for gods sake!

If brown can lie everyweek on tv, what makes you think that anyone knows how much shit we're in!

Stop puttimg the pressure on the tories over the deficit when they're as much in the dark as the rest of us.

AAE

Congratulations Fraser! Your speech speaks for the instincts and beliefs for all of us who wish to see the tide of socialism reversed. Cameron should surely have noticed by now that when Labour, or The Guardian or the BBC get hysterical, it's because the truth is being told and he should be reassured, not intimidated, by that kind of reaction. For God's sake, there are examples by the tens of millions of the failure and evil of socialism (that failure being intrinsic to it's make-up).
And those CoffeeHousers who feel any criticism of Cameron is likely to disadvantage him electorally shouldn't worry - if Dave wins, it won't be The Speccie "wot won it", but the conscience of the Right needs a voice, and I'm grateful to Fraser for it.

TrevorsDen

utter cobblers. of course winning is enough. You cannot do anything in opposition.

Repeat after me - you cannot do anything in opposition. write out 100 times 'you cannot do anything in opposition'.

1975, or 1979, is not now. I remember 1975, it was when you were in short trousers. Labour have not repealed Thatchers union reforms. That battle has been won. Labour have embraced tort PFI, labour have embraced privatisation. Those battles have been won.

All we are left with are arguments about just when to implement cuts. The reality is that the real situation uncovered when the tories take office will make all pre election speculation pointless.

So just shut up Mr Nelson or else be prepared for another 5 years carping from the sidelines.

djw2009

Why is Cameron the best MP in the chamber to govern? In some ways Frank Field is more conservative than Cameron, and, Fraser boy, you are forgetting David Davis. What makes you think Cameron would be more radical that DD?

Geoff Miller

What Britain needs is a Government that addresses the public's main concerns. We are screaming out for change.

There is no need to recount them here as they are well known.

The Tories have adopted so many of Labours unpopular policies and attitudes that THEY risk losing the election or WE risk a Tory government committed to continuing LAbours "Project" of State employment, benefit dependency and demographic gerrymandering.

Neither situation will satisfy people - in the long run we will lose our country.

The outcome may well be the continued rise of minor parties. That will either produce a breakdown of the two party stranglehold OR, given the first past the post system, two "main" parties that do not, even in aggregate, represent the British people.

When we see Cameron promising to maintain Labour spending for fear of losing votes, going soft on immigration, Islamism and the "family" most Tories will wonder why they should vote for him at all.

I certainly do.

Wily Trout

Brown committed to Tory spending plans when he became chancellor - didn't do him any political harm at the time. Nu-Lab stole the centre ground from the Tories. Many on the hard left still say this is the nth year of Tory misrule. The knee-jerk response of the Tories from 1998 onwards was to move further to the right and that handed the Labour spin machine too many simple targets. Cameron is right to do what he is doing. Anything else would just attract accusations of dog whistles etc.

widget

I don't think that anyone seriously thinks that NHS spending should be ring-fenced, but to take the responsible attitude an enter into a dialogue with the public about necessary cuts in the NHS budget (that could be done while still improving services) would be wave good-bye to a golden opportunity to govern. The sensible strategy is to get in, then you have five years to make the argument.
If Obama has taught us anything, it is the folly of promising the earth. Surely it's more prudent to get in, then assess your ability to get things done.

PAUL GILBOY

It’s not too difficult to make a neo-liberal argument Frazer, the logic and rational is perfect and symmetrical, unfortunately the language is brutal and does not resonate with the public.

Calling for cuts to the NHS will see the conservatives hammered in an election as the Labour spin machine would go into overdrive destroying that type of argument. No, we must negate their lines of attack first and, then articulate our vision of state and society.

For example, Toby Young and others are taking control of their own school. Is he envisaging a bog standard comprehensive, no his school will be a grammar school in all but name, an example of conservative ideals with progressive language.

Some people might throw their hands up and say this is duplicitous but that is exactly the type of discourse labour have employed. However, the difference between their execution and implementation and our, is our way works.

JONNY

David is going to win the Election.
Just bloody well relax and let him do it.

Ex-Tory voter

Blair hid in the clothes of the Conservatives and Gordon followed their economic policies for a couple of years until reverting to type (tax and spend with the added poison of borrowing). Look how well that turned out. I want Dave to be a conservative, even if he can't manage to be a Conservative. About the only things I agree with him on are support for marriage and repeal of the useless Hunting Act. They are not enough to save the country. We need to address the problem of the EU (particularly post Lisbon), immigration/multiculturalism, the bloated State, welfarism and education. There is only one party that ticks the boxes for me on those items.

Tim Carpenter LPUK

I totally agree that winning is not enough.

Alas, this is all the boy Dave is interested in.

Dave B

Matthew Parris has added his 2p:

"Better, I conclude, to give the electorate an honest sense of your essential slant on politics, while leaving the beef to be worked up, and talked through, from the more secure position of incumbency. This is not, as Nelson implied, bad advice from a bad angel. It is the same advice, from the same angel, as Margaret Thatcher heeded in 1978-79, when she was persuaded by quiet Tory voices to agree a manifesto that was gloriously unspecific."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article7017153.ece

MikeO'

Are Cameron and Osborne heading for a triumph, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory? They are successfully proving to basic conservatives that they are really Blair clones and recent polls suggest that they are consistently losing ground. Do the Conservatives want to lose the election?

A hung parliament after summer 2010 would allow a re-run on a real Tory ticket which the public might accept - but who will lead it? This article is yet another in an emerging pattern that as yet fails to articulate the immensity of the challenge facing the UK at this time.