Will we lose Turkey?

Publius

Korski writes:
"The recent conflict between the US and Turkey over what to call the killing of Armenians during World War II"

Duh? I think you need to check your dates.

Rachael

'We' never wanted Turkey.

That's why 'we' weren't asked and the powers that be have courted it without asking us.

strapworld

WHY does Coffeehouse not report each and every death of a British serviceman/woman in Afghanistan?

That, to me, is far more important than Turkey. Let us not forget that Turkey is a islamic state and if they are in the EU, guess who will benefit from the Turkish new rights to work and live anywhere within the EU!!!

Subrosa, who has an excellent post and who gives, sadly an almost daily account, of the fallen has wriiten this today:_

"Yesterday morning a British soldier was killed as a result of small arms fire near Sangin, in Helmand Province.

He belonged to A Company 4 RIFLES, part of the 3 RIFLES Battle Group and was killed in a fire-fight with insurgents at Patrol Base Bariolai to the north of Sangin District Centre.

His death was the result of gun-shot wounds sustained during an insurgent attack on the Patrol Base involving small arms and rocket-propelled grenades. We have now lost 271 of our armed forces in this war.

British fatality rates in Afghanistan are much higher than those of US and Canadian forces and now there's growing evidence that helicopter shortages could be a major factor. Professor Sheila Bird (a top statistician) and Clive Fairweather (a former SAS colonel) discovered that between May 2009 and February this year the British death rate of 14.6 per 1000 personnel years was much worse than both the Canadians (10.8) and the Americans (5.7). 1000 personnel years is equivalent to 4000 troops in theatre for three months.

Professor Bird believes further explanation is needed, insisting 'chance is not the explanation.'

Canada, in 2009, increased air support to 5.6 helicopters per 1000 personnel. At the same time Britain had a meagre 3.3 per 1000. Since May 2009 Canada's military fatalities have seen 27 deaths rather than the expected 55, leaving British forces with the worst death rate.

A MoD spokeswoman said: " To present fatality rates in this way is a misunderstanding of the nature of operations."

I should think Professor Bird and Mr Fairweather used the same criteria for the US, Canada and the UK".

Now, one would hope this will be taken seriously by all politicians!

It is time, surely, to bring our troops home. I have never subscribed to the nonsense that they are maing our streets safer by being in Afghanistan.

One would hope Cameron would have a different policy than Labour. But he is just another politician who follows and does not lead!

John David Barnett

I shan't miss them. Not one little bit.

Peter From Maidstone

Why does the West need a country that will not admit to its own recent history and in fact imprisons any of its own citizens who do describe what happened? It is not only Sarkozy who objects to Turkey's possible accession. A majority of Europeans object.

Hawkeye

Turkey is not part of the west. Neither is Israel. The EU is big enough already.

Mike Williams

I hate to dissapoint you all. However, a country with the second most powerful army in NATA who also controls the gas reaching the EU and has a history of brave fights. I would want them more than the French, Germans, Dutch or any other europeans in the UE. As a Britt I am confortable with the Turks being in the EU. Love the people. Go there every year on hols. But the people I spoke to in Turkey actually do NOT want to join the EU. I thought I would mention this to the people in Europe with their heads stuck up where the sun dont shine.

Austin Barry

"Turkey and the EU have for a while been locked in fruitless discussions about Turkey's EU accession, an irresolvable proposition so long as French President Nicolas Sarkozy remains opposed."

Sarkozy and most of the sentient, non-Islamic population of Europe.

General Zod

Turkey is not an Islamic state, but that is what it will become if shunned by Europe and the rest of the West.

A secular democracy with a vast majority of Muslim citizens is what the world needs to show the people of the range of other majority Muslim countries that are currently anything from dictatorships to theocracies to failed states that there is a workable alternative.

Turkey is confronting its past and bringing the army to book for the coups of the past. At this stage, Turkey needs our support. Without it, the Islamists will be able to point to their rejection by the West and the need to contain or eliminate Ataturk's corrupted legacy in the army to press for an Islamic state.

denis cooper

You should blame the proponents of "ever closer union".

I come back to the detail of the EU treaties, which you seem to think are not that important.

It would be possible to have various kinds of mutually beneficial treaties between the various countries of western Europe, eastern Europe, north Africa and the Middle East including Turkey.

Unfortunately in 1957 six western European countries agreed on a treaty which in its very first line committed them to a process of "ever closer union", and that remains the driving force for the EU.

The plain fact is that the further that process of EU integration proceeds, the more difficult it becomes to include other countries such as Turkey, and so it becomes more likley they will have to remain outside the EU.

I don't want my country merged with France, let alone with Turkey; I don't want French politicians voting on the laws of my country, let alone Turkish politicians; and I don't want every Frenchman to have the automatic, unchallengeable, legal right to come and live and work in my country, let alone every Turk.

Vulture

You focus on tne economic arguments, Daniel, to the exclusion of political ones.

Turkey is not a European country so the idea of it ever entering the EU was a non-starter. 10% of Turkish territory around Istanbul is in Europe, but 90% (Anatolia) is in Asia Minor.

Not even the French and Germans are daft enough to want 70 million Turkish Muslims flooding across their borders. (Germany already has several million). So expect Turkey's entrance application to remain 'on hold' indefinitely.

Turkey is ruled by an Islamic party which appears to be moderate but is introducing Islamism and Shariah by stealth and is no less dangerous for that. Traditionally the Turkish army - upholders of the secular, Ataturk tradition - simply made a coup (four since 1960) when they saw any sign of obscurantist Islam raising its ugly head.

However, the arrest last week of several former Turkish Chiefs of Staff accused of plotting such a coup in 2003 suggests that the Army has lost its coup-making ability and that Islam is firmly in the saddle.

Turkey would be unwise to rely on Russia - its traditional enemy - as its new economic chum. It still needs the West. And the West needs Turkey. But not an Islamist Turkey.

YA

no word about illegal occupation of Cyprus
no word about persecution of Christians
no word about Kurds
no word about anti-Israeli hysteria
no word about pan-Islamic rethorics
no word about Armenian genocide denial
no word about alliance with Iran

as far as Islamist government is ruling, - who needs this another jihadi monster in Europe?

does somebody want EU to border Iraq?

what a delirium is written here.

Fulhamite

Turkey is still a secular state with Western values. I speak from many years of experience. We desert them at our peril. The present government there does not represent the civilised majority.

General Zod

posts being delayed yet again.

kein

armenia was world war one.

Carroll Barry-Walsh

Very sensible to suggest that we have good strategic relations with Turkey but it does not follow that we should support Turkish accession to the EU. The last thing we need in Europe right now (or for the foreseeable future) is 80 million more Muslims. I think you'll find this view is supported not just by the French but by many other European governments and by the vast majority of the citizens of Europe.

Andre

Turkey is not an Islamic state - it is in danger of becoming one. Kemal Ataturk, the father of modern Turkey, over threw the sultanate and established a secular republic. His charisma has largely kept Turks loyal to that concept.The army especially holds true to KA's ideals. Can the West hold true to Turkey? A good ally and a friendly and generous people? I hope so. On a monument near Cannakale commemorating the dead of the first world war - the ill fated Gallipoli landings - Ataturk caused to be written: (I'm quoting this from memory so apologies Turkey if I am not word perfect) : 'Mothers weep not for your sons. For they lie at peace in a friendly land and by their sacrifice for freedom they have become our sons as well.' I may no care for their religion - any more than Ataturk did - but Turks are great people, the food and charisma and the wines of Cappadocia, quite wonderful. I hope we can keep Turkey as an integral part of the west. That is where she belongs.

Jan M

You just have to read Samuel Huntington’s Clash of Civilisations to understand why Turkey is drifting away from the West and why it will never be a part of a (non- Islamicised) Europe.

No-one is going to 'lose' Turkey as it is a leading part of the Islamic civilisation. While the world was divided between the Western, the Soviet and the non-aligned blocks, it was in a weak Turkey’s interest to lend its support to us. We should not make the mistake of misjudging this expediency for long term friendship or common cause.

Gary

Your argument is unconvincing, Daniel. The battle for Turkey's soul is already lost. The country is onside with Iran & Russia. That is bad enough but the notion that Turkey's largely illiterate, backward, Islamist leaning farmers & rural types - numbering in the many millions - should suddenly be allowed to emigrate to Europe is a prospect grim enough to give any sensible person the shivers.

Oh, it's alright for C4 or you media types to present some slick interview with an educated, presentable, media savvy Turk (preferably female, right?)- as if this were representative of Turkey as a whole - but we know differently.

This is what I'm talking about & if you think that the people of Europe are going to allow peasants with these kinds of values to flood into the West then you're fantasizing. Here, read it & weep:

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/97886/-brutal-death-of-16-year-old-reopens-debate-over-39-honor-39-killings-in-turkey.html

anne allan

Another way of looking at it - Turks have more sense. They have seen the future and it doesn't include a corrupt, sclerotic state.

Frank P

Lose Turkey? No doubt it will be blamed on Asian bird 'flu. Bootiful!

Yam Yam

This is where the EU's federalising instinct does it no favours. Of course, it makes no sense to admit to a federalised political union a country with 72 million Muslims.

However, were the EU instead just a free trade area then it would make eminent sense to anchor this strategically vital nation into the 'European' fold.

Verity

"In the lat 1940s ... the question was ... who lost China?"

Yes, well that would be because China is full of highly intelligent, achieving people, with a long history of inventing things.

"If we are not careful, it will be Turkey which will be lost to the West."

Good! Let's not be careful. Let's be criminally careless, in fact! Oops! There goes Turkey!

Edward Sutherland

Sorry, I'm not with you Mr Korski on this one. As far as I'm concerned, the saddest date in European history is 29 May 1453, when the last Byzantine emperor, Constantine IX, died defending Constantinople from the conquering Ottoman hordes. By all means let's maintain friendly relations with the Turks,eg, through NATO, but that does not have to entail EU membership with further mass immigration into this country.

Tariq

Austin Berry, surely you mean "senescent"?

Vulcan princess

Good one! The once "sick man of Europe" became “the quiet man of Europe” and it’s returning under disguise as “ a man that can bridge nations.” There is internal and external battle for Turkey’s soul. Read the Kemalists…

John David Barnett

So long as persist in denying their guilt over the Armenian genocide they remain a pariah state.

London Calling

The doorway for Turkey into the EU should be kept shut. No offence to Turkish Citizens, its just that door would flood too many unsavoury clientele in also. The EU started out with a grandeur vision of flexi trade, flexi people, ruled by flexi leaders no ones ever heard of and which have evolved into a membership club, the elite of which appear more ominous as each day passes. For Britain this presents a further threat, because final destination will be Britain and those in the EU couldn’t give a brass monkeys beyond the pay cheque about the consequences…until it was too late that is however nothing that cant be ironed out over Lobster, Sardines and a Sangria…

As for the CH honouring the Fallen. We honour the Fallen by supporting the Forces every need. Names of the Fallen are updated daily on the news broadcasts and any repetitive response here would lose site of the need for clarity on the deeper questions, of which I do agree CH should be more informative on. For instance why didn’t David Cameron trumpet Sir Richard Dannatt to comment on equipment shortages in Iraq following Gordon Brown’s denial of shortages at the Chilcot enquiry seeing as he is now on board and why didn’t CH run a story asking the same question? We appear to be having many blackouts of late in the Media and Politico, only no one knows who the enemy is, let alone where the bombs are dropping from.

A Soldiers best friend is his Sniffer Dog…and his Rat friends, who needs Turkeys?…bring it on…
The rats with a nose for danger
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/sep/12/landmine.detecting.rats

SixthForm

You need to check your dates (eg Armenian massacre) and your spelling. Also, as a Dane, whom do you mean by "we" in the headline? Are you writing exclusively for Danes?

djw2009

Lose Turkey? WE NEVER HAD IT!

All we need is our independence, free trade and the ability to defend ourselves. WE DO NOT NEED TO MANIPULATE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ON THE GLOBE.

I am sick to the teeth of reading this left-wing extremist tosh on the Spectator website.

Kirsty Richards

Earth to Daniel Korski....I think you will find most people would be very happy if Turkey is 'lost' and therefore does NOT join the EU. Turkey is not in Europe and should not ever be. Thank God for Sarkozy and to some extent Merkel who are representing the views of the majority of European citizens. The very idea of giving 70 million Turkish muslims (most of whom are very poor) the right to come to England to live and claim benefit is insanity.

Tony Gee

Turkey is an Asian country, the EU is becoming like the Eurovision Song Contest - there is only one rule there are no rules.

Ali

well you all need to know most important, racism in EU will never win and EU is nothing with out Turkey, EU has problem with with people like you because they want to finish racism. God know why you all scare this much from Turkey.

Malfleur

Ali

Because it hasn't given back Constantinople yet.

YAAKOV HAIMOVIC

Turkey was lost the moment Islam won the elections.They will never let go as it is their divine mission to rule the world.The army lost their power as a consequence of european pressure for more democracy from the moment the old USSR passed away.You eat what you have cooked.

Victor Southern

Ali

That is a fine sentiment. I hope it also applies to your views on the Kurds.

Verity

Ali, dear, what you neded to know is: we don't want any more muslims in our country. You refer to "racism" yet cite none. You do understand, don't you, that islam is not a race? It's a freely-adhered to religion. A religion is not genetic, but a race is.

What the majority of Brits seem to have gathered is that islam is a primitive belief system - apparently stemming from moon worship a couple of thousand, or more, years ago. Muslims have some very unpleasant folkways that we do not wish to import.

We in Britain are intent on reducing the number of muslims already in Britain, not give 80m more the rights to share our wealth, our resources and our islands.

The West is governed on Christian principles. Our success in everything demonstrates that this is a good plan.

Ke H

Yam Yam (@13.55)
IMHO that is the most sensible and supportable position to take and I gree with Yam Yam entirely.
We should all be better off in a free trade area which did not include unwanted migration,and attempts at cramming us all in a federal pot.
But isn't that what we voted for in the first place?

Beer Moth

Interesting that so much is made here of polling results: what Turks feel and what they want.

Any figures for what we want?

Thought not.

Dimoto

Turkish relations with Iran and Russia will always be constrained by their absurd "Pan-Turanism" notion (meddling in central Asia).

For a similar reason, relations with China are rocky - all over Istanbul you can see "East Turkestan cultural centres" with their blue version Turkish flags - that's Xinjiang (violent) separatist groups BTW.
China has already hinted that it might retaliate by re-igniting the Kurdish separatists.

Much of Turkish foreign policy is wrong headed and counterproductive.

But the real block to any EU associate agreement with Turkey is not Sarkozy, but those pesky and obdurate Greeks (talk about
the tail wagging the dog).
Nobody bears an historical grudge like the Greeks - not even Israel !

Herbert Thornton

One of the reasons given for excluding Turkey from the E.U. is that to to let Turkey in would result is so many Turks leaving Turkey that it would accelerate the growth of Islam in Europe.

That, while true, lays bare the foolishness and hypocrisy of western European governments in allowing - and in the case of Gordon Brown's regime secretly encouraging - the tide of Muslim immigration to become a Tsunami.

At the same time it is high time that we recognised that the struggle inside Turkey to keep its status as a secular state - which seems to be in grave danger - would be much harmed if Turkey became more closely integrated into Europe and thus infected and saddled with a menace just as dangerous as extremist Islam - aND

Herbert Thornton

OOPS! I was revising that last paragraph and pressed the wrong key. I hope I'll be allowed to revise it & continue -

At the same time the idea that Turkey and Europe would benefit mutually from closer integration is, I believe, profoundly mistaken, because it is based only on narrow economic considerations.

The situation in Turkey is very worrying indeed because a renewed confrontation has developed between the Secularists and the Islamists and this time it is unclear whether Turkey is going to be able to keep its status as a secular state. Closer integration of Turkey into Europe will lead to a very harmful introduction of Political Correctness into Turkey - and this will play straight into the hands of the Islamists in Turkey and against the Secularists.

In an nutshell, political correctness is a powerful a catalyst for the transformation of both Turkey and Europe into Islamic Theocracies.

From the point of view of people who prefer secularism to submission to Islam the expanding economic ties between Russia and a (hopefully continuing) secular Turkey are a much more welcome development than what is happening in western Europe.

Will we lose Turkey? What will it profit us if we gain Turkey while we are being deprived of our own souls?

Ancient Viator

What is it with you racist Europeans? Is it really religion or the fact that as was mentioned earlier you have your heads in dark places? Religion? You didn’t complain when the story of a Jewish profit persuaded you to change the whole of your society. Then what, civilisation? Yeah Right. Most Europeans who converted to Islam did so because of the way they were treated by the pious Christians. And what about bringing the word of God to the heathens? At the point of a gun, sword, cannon, etc. Anything really so their wealth could be stolen under the guise of trade. And as is most obvious reading some of your quotes from the BNP literature, education appears rather limited amongst you!

You see European civilisation was developed through colonialism based on hate and fear and slavery and theft (and disease and petulance)! At least the Turks, (who also have some skeletons in their closets too) ensured all races lived together in a relative harmony that the Europeans are only just discovering. And for those of you who cannot read past the headlines and quote Turkey and the Kurds just remember who committed the first poison gassing of the Kurds in Iraq! In case you still cannot work it out it was the English.

As with many of these Turkey bashing discussions it is interesting to try and spot the Greeks who have nothing better to do than to spend their free time espousing hate and vitriol against the Turks under the guise and names of being English, Kurds, Armenians, the neighbours dog, anyone really! Maybe they need to learn to read too and will discover that the Catholics nearly wiped out the Orthodox Church and it had to shelter under the Ottomans where the Mediterranean branch flourished. It is also very interesting what is happening in Europe now. A short time ago I wrote a blog about how once the Turks would turn away from the EU so the Europeans would need a new whipping boy. Anyone noticed the calls to eject Greece from the EU? Well you’ll have to come up with another excuse than religion as they are ‘Christians’! Or maybe not your type of Christians. In my previous blog I offered that the Greeks would one day find themselves on their backsides after their Christian friends have finished with them. I offered that they do not burn all their bridges with the Turks because despite their hatred of Turks we would still prefer a union with them than a two-faced European partner.

Finally back to the article. It is quite enlightening and there is a slight trend towards this type of view amongst those who read whole articles. Whether you realise this or not Turkey is forming partnerships with countries outside of the EU that contain Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Blacks, Whites, Asians, Europeans, Mediterranean, Africans and South Americans! If you look it is forming an affinity with the southern Mediterranean countries, in the Balkans, with the ex-Soviet states, including Russia. These are forming a ring around Europe! Wake up!

Financially these are helping Turkey to achieve the greatest post Ottoman wealth ever and science and research is growing exponentially. Someone in this discussion said that they did not want the Turks but agreed they could stay in organisations like NATO presumably to defend the ageing European pensioners from those horrible foreigners (but from a distance). Do you really think the Turks want to be a third–rate nation in Europe? If they continue to build at the rate they are now with their new partners they won’t have to join the EU to get into Europe. They will just walk right in. Now do you want them as friends?

Ancient Viator

What is it with you racist Europeans? Is it really religion or the fact that as was mentioned earlier you have your heads in dark places? Religion? You didn’t complain when the story of a Jewish profit persuaded you to change the whole of your society. Then what, civilisation? Yeah Right. Most Europeans who converted to Islam did so because of the way they were treated by the pious Christians. And what about bringing the word of God to the heathens? At the point of a gun, sword, cannon, etc. Anything really so their wealth could be stolen under the guise of trade. And as is most obvious reading some of your quotes from the BNP literature, education appears rather limited amongst you!

You see European civilisation was developed through colonialism based on hate and fear and slavery and theft (and disease and petulance)! At least the Turks, (who also have some skeletons in their closets too) ensured all races lived together in a relative harmony that the Europeans are only just discovering. And for those of you who cannot read past the headlines and quote Turkey and the Kurds just remember who committed the first poison gassing of the Kurds in Iraq! In case you still cannot work it out it was the English.

As with many of these Turkey bashing discussions it is interesting to try and spot the Greeks who have nothing better to do than to spend their free time espousing hate and vitriol against the Turks under the guise and names of being English, Kurds, Armenians, the neighbours dog, anyone really! Maybe they need to learn to read too and will discover that the Catholics nearly wiped out the Orthodox Church and it had to shelter under the Ottomans where the Mediterranean branch flourished. It is also very interesting what is happening in Europe now. A short time ago I wrote a blog about how once the Turks would turn away from the EU so the Europeans would need a new whipping boy. Anyone noticed the calls to eject Greece from the EU? Well you’ll have to come up with another excuse than religion as they are ‘Christians’! Or maybe not your type of Christians. In my previous blog I offered that the Greeks would one day find themselves on their backsides after their Christian friends have finished with them. I offered that they do not burn all their bridges with the Turks because despite their hatred of Turks we would still prefer a union with them than a two-faced European partner.

Finally back to the article. It is quite enlightening and there is a slight trend towards this type of view amongst those who read whole articles. Whether you realise this or not Turkey is forming partnerships with countries outside of the EU that contain Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Blacks, Whites, Asians, Europeans, Mediterranean, Africans and South Americans! If you look it is forming an affinity with the southern Mediterranean countries, in the Balkans, with the ex-Soviet states, including Russia. These are forming a ring around Europe! Wake up!

Financially these are helping Turkey to achieve the greatest post Ottoman wealth ever and science and research is growing exponentially. Someone in this discussion said that they did not want the Turks but agreed they could stay in organisations like NATO presumably to defend the aging European pensioners from those horrible foreigners (but from a distance). Do you really think the Turks want to be a third–rate nation in Europe? If they continue to build at the rate they are now with their new partners they won’t have to join the EU to get into Europe. They will just walk right in. Now do you want them as friends?

Herbert Thornton

I pressed the wrong key while was revising my 12.12am posting. My first attempts to rectify it seem, despite the passage of some hours, to have vanished into cyberspace. Here's another go at a revision & completion of the whole thing -

One of the reasons given for excluding Turkey from the E.U. is that to let Turkey in would result in so many Islamist Turks leaving Turkey (where they would - at least until recently - have been kept in check by Turkey's Constitution) that their arrival in Europe would accelerate the growth of Islam in Europe.

That is of course a good reason in its way, but it lays bare the foolishness and hypocrisy of western European governments in allowing - and in the case of Gordon Brown's regime secretly encouraging - the tide of Muslim immigration from Muslim countries in general to become a Tsunami.

The idea that Turkey and Europe would benefit mutually from closer integration is, I believe, profoundly mistaken, because it is based only on narrow economic considerations.

The situation in Turkey is very worrying indeed because of the renewed confrontation that has developed between Secularism and Islam - and especially because this time it is unclear whether Turkey is going to be able to keep its status as a secular state. Closer integration of Turkey into Europe will lead to a very harmful introduction of Political Correctness into Turkey - and this will play straight into the hands of the Islamists in Turkey and against Secularism.

Political Correctness wields as much uncompromising and retrogressive power over western Europe (and beyond) as extremist clerics wield over the Muslim world. Paradoxical as it seems on the surface, Political Correctness is a powerful and determined catalyst (under the false guise of "Human Rights") for enabling the forcible transformation of both Turkey and Europe into medieval, undemocratic, Islamic Theocracies.

From the point of view of people who prefer secularism to submission to Islam, the expanding economic ties between Russia (which unlike western Europe is not in the grip of Political Correctness) and Turkey (where we must hope Secularism will continue to prevail over Islam) are a welcome development. Russian-Turkish ties are far healthier than what is happening in western Europe and the accelerated Islamisation that would flow from Turkish integration into Europe.

Will we lose Turkey? A more important question is - what will it profit us if we gain Turkey while we ourselves are being deprived of our own souls? And, moreover, what would it profit Turkey? Turkey has a much safer associate in a non-politically correct, and indeed Christian, Russia.

bora the turk

You people are obsessed about religion. Please try to see all these issues as a matter of the West isolating itself from the rest of the world not the other way around. Brazil, South Africa, India, China all are emerging nations and you are talking about losing all of them. The truth is we are losing you. Or have we have had you you as true allies in the first place? Can you fathom being equals with these countries and these people? That's the question.

Niallster

The British political elite are daft enough to push for 70 million muslims and their stone age religion to be let in to Europe.

Anything ANYTHING to avoid being called WASSSIST. Even thought Islam is not a race as pointed out by other contributors.

Fortunately for us the Germans will never allow it. They have already seen the consequences of minor short term Turkish immigration and will have no truck with major long term immigration.

Any and every German politician knows that they will be thrown out of office instantly if they allow it. A sad day when you have to rely on the Germans for common sense but there you have it.

Doug

The EU doesn't want them, they don't want the EU. Europeans preach superiority, so the Turks get defensive and vengeful. Not the type of attitudes you want festering in the neighbourhood. If you ask me, you are all doomed. The superficial/materialistic beliefs that drive Europeans will be their undoing whereas for the Turks, it will be their inferiority complex.

Deee

Ancient Viator - 10 Stars!

I've been saying the same thing on many forums . The problem is, they just brush it off. They don't care since they are in the privileged position in terms of prosperity. The rest of the world including Turkey is working hard to catch up, but only then, once everyone has similar wealth, will Europe realise that for all their preaching of subtlety and humanity, they could not disguise their greedy, racist hearts and are now being punished for it. I can't wait.

alfredo

Turkey's genocidal legacy against the christians peoples living under criminal TURKISH RULE Armenians,Greeks,Assyrians and Bulgarians has not been mentionned in that article.some people seems to have forgotten that Turkey has been created by opposition to Christianty and its values.

Verity

Bora The Turk: "You people are obsessed about religion." No, people who fly planes into skyscrapers; people who bomb commuter trains; people who bomb railway stations; people who bomb US Marine barracks in Lebanon while two hundred fighting men slept; people who bomb nightclubs; people who bomb hotels; people who sew bombs into their underpants to enable them to blow up planes ... all in the name of some dingbat desert diety ... are religious obsessives. We truly do not want them among us.

"Please try to see all these issues as a matter of the West isolating itself from the rest of the world not the other way around. Brazil, South Africa, India, China all are emerging nations and you are talking about losing all of them."

Incorrect. We won't be losing our close familial ties with India's 1.2bn people. As soon as the Labour movement's dead and buried, we'll be friends with the very fine, brilliant and, in the main, nice looking, people of China.

Frankly, we don't have much in the way of markets or familial ties or shared history in Latin America, so I'm missing the point you were trying to make. It would be nice if Chile were to take our side over the Falklands, but they won't.

Similarly, we have have nothing in common with Turkey.

Herbert Thornton

Alfredo (and others) -

Judging by this thread, too many people are still mired in the past and still simmering with resentments over what happened long before they were born.

Isn't the question that matters - "What sort of future are we heading for?"

Lumping Turkey and China and Armenia and South Africa and South America and India and Christianity's and Islam's past and Britain's past and stirring it all up together doesn't help much.

My guess is that this century will see China grow to be the pre-eminent world power closely allied with Japan and Korea (which will become its satellites) while the USA will be the second, India the third, and Russia the fourth other major powers.

Europe's stature (and fate) will depend on whether or not it solves the problems of Islam's determination to overwhelm it and of the insane eagerness of Political Correctness to allow that to happen.

Bexleyite

Turkey is a secular republic, unlike the UK, which is a monarchy where the head of state is also the head of the church and where bishops have seats in the upper chamber. None of this happens in Turkey. No imams have any place in the Turkish parliament.

MPs in the UK place their hands on the Bible when they swear their oath. Some, apparently, keep their fingers crossed behind them when they do this so they can later forswear this. There is no sharia law in Turkey.

THe EU chose not to mention Christianity in their constitution. Religion is no reason now to cite Islam as a reason for excluding Turkey from the EU.

It's true that Turkey is mainly in Asia. But so is Kazakhstan, currently chairing the Organisation for Co-Operation and Security in Europe, and the 9th largest country in the world.

At the end of the day, what are you West Europeans going to do?

Herbert Thornton

Bexleyite -

What point are you trying to make when you write - "Turkey is a secular republic, unlike the UK, which is a monarchy where the head of state is also the head of the church and where bishops have seats in the upper chamber. None of this happens in Turkey. No imams have any place in the Turkish parliament."?

You have described the kind of Turkey that will continue to exist only so long as the present Turkish Constitution remains in force.

The Islamist party (the AKP) now in power, is attempting to change the constitution so as to destroy secularism. It is at present proceeding against the army, and is now also attempting to change the judiciary into one that is opposed to secularism and that favours Islam.

Not for Prophet

The Anglosphere needs to become a more formal identity. We need to act as one. This would mean disengaging with the EU, which would be one more step in the right direction. Then it wouldn't be of any consequence to us if they engaged in the insanity of letting Turkey in.

The Anglosphere would comprise the United States, Britain, Canada, India, New Zealand, Oz, Malaysia, Singapore (all high achiever countries) and whatever African countries are still in the Commonwealth. By contrast, Pakistan would not be in as English is not the language of the country. Neither would Bangladesh. These countries, bar India, are overwhelmingly Christian (with major contributions from Jewish citizens). India is largely Hindu, which is another largely pacific religion that actively discourages converts. They don't want to rule the world. They don't even want outsiders joining in.

As large blocs seem to be on the way, we should get the Anglosphere formalised as quickly as possible.

I've never been to Turkey and I have nothing against the Turks, except their worship of a desert diety whose prophet may have been illiterate, except for their godawful "religion". Even without the element of an aggressive religion, the fact that they are not Europeans is reason enough for them to be excluded.

For those who are interested in Turkey, there is an absolutely wonderful book by Jeremy Seal - "A Fez of The Heart". It's an account of his journey through Turkey looking for the origins of the fez. It's an utterly engaging read.

But membership in the EU, no.