Hague’s modern Realism

teledu

"Modern realism". Wow - where do I place my X ?

Hawkeye

If I had a button on the desk in front of me that I could press that would remove Britain from the EU, I would be pressing it until my finger was numb.

However, as someone pointed out to me recently, the downside of leaving the EU is the rather unobvious question of "What do we do with all the people who are in the wrong place?"

This threw me initially as I did not understand the question. He explained to me that if we left the EU then the Brits living abroad have no right to remain in the EU and the Europeans living in the UK have no right to remain either. Millions of people would have to move or be deported.

It simply is not practical. I wish it was practical, but if we cannot deal with the illegals then how to we deal with doubling or tripling their number?

On that basis I can see where Hague is coming from. It has reached the point were extricating ourselves from the EU is probably impossible. I do not like it.

As a result I will accept second best - asserting the primacy of UK law over EU law. It is a poor second prize but it is better then s*d all.

denis cooper

Correction:

"He seems to want reconcile the traditional Tory emphasis on the sovereignty of the nation state and aversion to grand designs with a policy of abject surrender to the EU."

Correction:

"Federalism is not dead".

David Ossitt

My; what a fine looking man, he will make a superb Prime Minister one of these days.

David Ossitt

Hawkeye.

"What do we do with all the people who are in the wrong place?"

Nothing; why not leave well alone, because, they are Europeans living in Europe.

It is the non Europeans that we should be worried about.

Jean Monnet

More jejune, anti-British, pro-EU guff from someone whose knowledge of history and prose style sound like a sixth-former's.

How can the UK beef up the FCO - as well as bolster Ashton's outfit, which is designed to marginalise national foreign ministries and embassies? And does Mr Korski know which British PM first applied to join the EEC?

While I do not mind too much being lectured on UK foreign policy by a Danish national, I wonder if Mr Korski's writing could be reserved a place behind the pay wall.

Norman Dee

Hawkeye is right, but it would not do any harm to offer the threat, just to indicate strongly to the rest how much they need us in their precious club, and the strengthening of democracy would be our price. The EU has become a Lord of the Flies situation and some calming and reining back is needed.

Herbert Thornton

"Modern Realism"? Not bad, in it's way. I wonder how it differs from "Old fashioned Realism"?

But I can't help feeling that first prize still goes to "Quantitative Easing".

Nicholas

William Hague, proof that a bald head can look better than hair. In sharp contrast with Broon, whom he makes appear greasy and surreptitious by comparison.

denis cooper

Hawkeye, people did move between countries before the EU came into existence; the difference now is that about 440 million other "EU citizens" plus some millions of sundry third country nationals have an unchallengeable legal right to come and live and work in this country. But even if we withdrew that automatic legal right there'd no reason why we should insist that they must all leave; almost all could stay, with permission rather than by right. What other EU member states did about UK citizens within their territory would be up to them, or rather up to them and the EU, but once again there's no reason to suppose that there'd be mass deportations.

SUSAN HILL

Hague is growing into his face.

Frank P

Yeah, I wonder what Brown would look like with a skin-head no-hair-do?

Dennis Churchill

Hawkeye
So no Hungarians or poles lived in Britain before we joined the Common Market? No Britons lived in France or Italy?
We would merely follow residency laws and have a work permit system just as we do for the USA.

Sanjeev Gandhi

"and make the most, systematically and strategically, of our great national assets”

er...and what exactly would they be???

Hawkeye

OK - quick response (because it's late) to those who ask "Where there no Europeans in the UK before we joined the EU"

Of course there were, but they were a much, much smaller number and there was a more rigorous immigration system too. The problem now is the sheer scale. Those who were measured in tens of thousands are now measured in the millions. The same is true of the two million Brits now living in Europe. What would we do if they sent the 2 million back to us, especially if we kept their citizens and granted them citizenship? It is the sort of half-demented way we would tend to do things to our own disadvantage.

toco

Seems like we have a man as the next Foreign Secretary rather than the banana eating boy Milliband.

Anan

Ah I see the anti-hair brigade is at work as randomly occurs around these parts.

NO TO BALDIES!!!

DavidDP

"It is the non Europeans that we should be worried about."

What's wrong with Americans and Australians?

Kevyn Bodman

I think Hawkeye mis-identifies the problem and is far too pessimistic about the impossibility of leaving the EU.

Like him, I would press that button to leave the EU right now.This morning.

But I have no wish to deport Europeans from Britain. They will remain in,or find,a productive niche and stay;failing that they will go.

(We do have problems with immigration that are linked to the failed results of the Welfare State, but that's a subject for another post.)

Although I believe that EU membership is one of the two biggest problems facing the UK there are reasons for that which do not include a dislike of other Europeans living in Britain.

I see the EU as not being run in the interests of the populations of its member nations;rather it is run simply in the interests of those who run it.
And we are unable to remove those in control from their positions of power.

Few individuals are in the 'wrong' place.If they were in the 'wrong' place they wouldn't be able to earn a living or function in society.
Remove state-imposed obligations and individuals will find their way to the 'right' place.

If Hawkeye thinks that 2 million British citizens would be deported from EU countries following UK withdrawal I must ask what view he takes of those countries and their governments.That they might be so a)malicious and b)stupid makes it even more important that we do not appease them.

Trade,travel,tourism,cross-national contact is not going to stop.I will continue to take holidays in France and Italy.I will continue to drink as much champagne as I can get my hands on.

French,Italian, Spanish etc. citizens will continue to visit and buy British products.

Polish plumbers,Italian au pairs,British English language teachers,French footballers etc.etc.will continue to live and work in the UK.

Much more could be said about the EU and why we should get out.
Others might like to do so.

A.F

Hawkeye,
UK citizens lived in Europe prior to various memberships,however it was not your right of passage,you applied for residence,giving an undertaking to support yourself and members of your family,supported by a bank account with sufficient funds,private medical insurance and no burden on the state, etc.at least until you were paying into the system.(by virtue of a job or business) They tended to acquire a better citizen,than the usual tosser,some of the rules still apply in many member states today. I trust that we were applying the same rules (don't laugh)Incidentally I am not a Eurosceptic but would like to see it function with less corruption and more accountability.

TomTom

Britain should look to Italy which is most similar rather than to Germany which has a powerful economic motor and influence especially in Asia because of economic might. Britain is not going to be significant except as a partner to Pakistan which increasingly influences British foreign policy and will, like Greeks and Jews in the USA, predominantly skew British policy objectives in the conflict areas of the world

denis cooper

If Tory "modern Realism" means that you knuckle under and accept a new EU treaty even though you know, and have repeatedly said, that it lacks democratic legitimacy, then I'd prefer "the traditional Tory emphasis on the sovereignty of the nation state" - if that still meant something.

That Lisbon Treaty which lacks democratic legitimacy in this country is now a part of our national constitution, foisted on us by Labour and the Liberal Democrats at the behest of foreign governments, and by deciding that they'd do nothing about that the Tory leaders have once again shown that they too have little regard for our sovereignty, our constitution and our democracy.

Many ordinary Tory members are decent and patriotic people, but unfortunately their leaders are not.

David Ossitt

Kevyn Bodman

Well said; a good interesting post.

Hawkeye

LOL! Given the number of replies to my original point, I feel like I've posted an article on The Speccie!

Seriously though, I understand the points raised and I can see where people are coming from. I'd still like to press that button but it is obvious to me that the complications of dealing with the EU will make it a non-trivial task.

As to the maliciousness of EU governments deporting Brits, I think that a number of them would at least threaten it and I would not be surprised if some started to go through the motion of doing it.

The real problem for the EU is that Britain is a huge contributor to the whole project. If we pulled our contributions then a number of lunatic EU scheme would collapse or be retarded. If we cannot get out then we should be using our muscle for good old self interest - just like all the other big countries do.

stephen

Hungarians? They were coming to the UK long before the EU. Examples? Steve Hilton's parents and Boy George who possibly had a Hungarian Grand Mum!
Maybe Boy George and William Hague should do a job swap the Boy might be much more at home in the scheming world of Eurocrats and Hague would do a better job of shadowing Darling.

stephen

I think Hague is getting on the right track the Eurozone is descending into economic prtectionism and has a basket case currency.

UK plc has a great opportunity to consolidate its trading and cultural links with the BRIC countries we have the great advantage that the UK is the preferred educational destination for many BRIC countries high acheivers[India and China in particular] in 20 years time these guys and gals will be probably be in the ruling elites of their countries! What do we get out of Europe a constant attempt to loose our unique British island trading mentality long term we should be looking at dumping Europe as our major trading partner and doing more business with the BRIC countries

John David Barnett

There can never be any pleasing the myopic Little Englanders. Why try?

Ghengis

Fascinating comments, but the reality is the backgound of a breakup of UK -- with England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland, reviewing their individual positions.

Nicholas

John David Barnett. I suspect your definition of racism probably aligns with the government in extending it to many areas not previously thought of as such (where it is often used instead of xenophobia for example). Could you please explain why you think the contemptuous expression "Little Englanders" should not be included within this broadened definition of racism? Are indigenous English people who wish to preserve their own sovereign, historic and cultural identity "Little Englanders"? If so, how so, by comparison to the devolved Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish? It strikes me that the term is offensive, not in keeping with recent government promoted trends towards respecting national, racial and cultural identities and when used by those who otherwise support these trends hypocritical in the extreme.

Hawkeye

stephen said: "What do we get out of Europe a constant attempt to loose our unique British island trading mentality long term we should be looking at dumping Europe as our major trading partner and doing more business with the BRIC countries"

I could cope with that - reduce the power of Europe by making UK law pre-eminent and then expand our influence in the BRIC arena.

Jack R

And, very unfortunately, the Tories campaign for entry of 75 million Turks into the E.U., and for the increasing pace of the Islamisation of Europe.