Down with declinism

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

"..., the failure of the nation’s elite, ..."

What on earth does this mean ?
Who are the "nation's elite"?
How, or in what way have they failed?

Kittler

A bit of a contradiction surely, "sovereign and prosperous future" and "free market philosophies".
Free market means surrendering sovereignty, to global finance and commerce, and to international markets.

paulg

When you quote gramsci it tells us everything we need to know about you. The greatness of the British people is not defined by this low grade marxist. We are different, fitter faster and stronger than all others.

Once we kick these half wits out of government, the british people will pull us back to where we belong... at the head of the table. Where we have always been and will remain.

John Richardson

You admit Britons have lost faith in the future. My phrase.
You suggest a short list of reasons why this has happened.
However, you omit a very important reason. People are aware that they are being lied to* and have therefore lost all respect for and faith in the 'Mainstream Media'.
Without the MSM, Governments, Health Authorities Police Forces etc would find it harder to 'spin'.
Obvious repeated lies from those who occupy positions that once proffered Authority, have a corrosive effect on the People, after a while.

You then claim that the Nation has 'made remarkable progress in recent years'.
Well.
This is a statement that everybody can respect and have faith in, Mr Korski.

* For example.....
WMD
Immigration
Crime & Sentencing
'Global Warming'
Foreign Rule/EU
Mp's financial corruption
Exam results

djw2009

Why does the Speccie employ these leftists to write blogs? "Britain is less racist, more dynamic" - what does that mean? Korski is once again telling us that there is something wrong with someone who believes this country is the patrimony of Britons and that our culture should rule the roost here. He uses the language of the Socialist Worker ("racism") as a slur word to smear anyone who wants to live a country united by an identity and culture - although, as with all these Socialist Worker types, he will nod approvingly at any member of a minority who values his ancestral culture. Why is sauce for the goose not sauce for the gander?

Isn't is typical? Korski's solution to demographic ageing is not pension reform, but in fact mass immigration - "like the US", he helpfully adds. He ends up with a deceitful lie - he intends to ignore the siren call of decline. Actually, Korski is revelling in Britain's abolition. The more our culture declines, the more our country can be remade as the country of those coming in - what about those of use of British descent? What are we supposed to do?

Short the UK

Hi Daniel,

Bill Bonner can describe 10x better than I could, what has happened and what is going to happen:

re are more clowns in economics than in the circus. They invented an economic model that has been very popular for more than 50 years – particularly in the US and Britain. It began with a bogus insight; John Maynard Keynes thought consumer spending was the key to prosperity; he saw savings as a threat. He had it backwards. Consumer spending is made possible by savings, investment and hard work – not the other way around. Then, William Phillips thought he saw a cause and effect relationship between inflation and employment; increase prices and you increase employment too, he said.

Jacques Rueff had already explained that the Phillips Curve was just a flimflam. Inflation surreptitiously reduced wages. It was lower wages that made it easier to hire people, not enlightened central bank management. But the scam proved attractive. The economy has been biased towards inflation ever since. Economists enjoyed the illusion of competence; they could hold their heads up at cocktail parties and pretend to know what they were talking about. Now they were movers and shakers, not just observers. The new theories seemed to give everyone what they most wanted. Politicians could spend even more money that didn’t belong to them. Consumers could enjoy a standard of living they couldn’t afford. And the financial industry could earn huge fees by selling debt to people who couldn’t pay it back.

Never before had so many people been so happily engaged in acts of reckless larceny and legerdemain. But as the system aged, its promises increased. Beginning in the ’30s, the government took it upon itself to guarantee the essentials in life – retirement, employment, and to some extent, health care. These were expanded over the years to include minimum salary levels, unemployment compensation, disability payments, free drugs, food stamps and so forth. Households no longer needed to save. As time wore on, more and more people lived at someone else’s expense. Lobbying and lawyering became lucrative professions. Bucket shops and banks neared respectability. Every imperfection was a call for legislation. Every traffic accident was an opportunity for wealth redistribution. And every trend was fully leveraged.

If there was anyone still solvent in America or Britain in the 21st century, it was not the fault of the banks. They invented subprime loans and securitizations to profit from segments of the market that had theretofore been spared. By 2005 even jobless people could get themselves into debt. Then, the bankers found ways to hide debt…and ways to allow the public sector to borrow more heavily. Goldman Sachs did for Greece essentially what it had done for the subprime borrowers in the private sector – it helped them to go broke.

As long as people thought they were getting something for nothing, this economic model enjoyed wide support. But now that they are getting nothing for something, the masses are unhappy. Half the US states are insolvent. Nearly all of them are preparing to increase taxes. In Europe too, taxes are going up. Services are going down. And taxpayers are being asked to pay for the banks’ losses…and pay interest on money spent years ago. Until now, they were borrowing money that would have to be repaid sometime in the future. But today is the tomorrow they didn’t worry about yesterday. So, the patsies are in revolt.

Several countries are already past the point of no return. Even if America taxed 100% of all household wealth, it would not be enough to put its balance sheet in the black. And Professors Rogoff and Reinhart show that when external debt passes 73% of GDP or 239% of exports, the result is default, hyperinflation, or both. IMF data show the US already too far gone on both scores, with external debt at 96% of GDP and 748% of exports. The rioters can go home, in other words. The system will collapse on its own."

-----

Until the political & media elite have a major philosophical awakening I am very donwbeat on our ability to turnaround our crumbling economy.

-----

I wrote this piece a year ago, with the passing of each day we get closer to the nightmare scenario:

A or L

A = Argentina = Depflation.

L = Japan = Deflation.

As we enter a depression there seem to be one of two paths that we can travel. One path accepts that there has been a debt bubble, that this is the cause of the depression. The other path does not accept that there was a debt bubble and it will be policy responses that will stop a depression.

If you accept the L then you accept that it is better to let the market find it's price and not bailout the badly run businesses. You go cold turkey. You do not run up massive debts on the State’s balance sheet, which only leads to higher taxes. You want people to save. You want the State to cut it’s cloth, to face the new reality that the high tax take from the debt bubble is not coming back. The delusion is dead. You want the State to cut business regulations and taxes. You want all your focus on nurturing wealth creating industries that can sell their goods and services globally. You give grants to such companies.

If you accept the A then you accept that you can manipulate the price in the market and bailout badly run businesses. You put off the day of reckoning. You run massive debts on the State’s balance sheet. You want people to borrow and spend. You want the State to expand and you expect the pre-bubble days to reappear like magic. The delusion lives on. You continue to over regulate and tax business. You want all your focus on spending and piling up debt. You give money to the profligate who ran up too much debt, you start printing money.

Life in the L is like hell. Many lose their jobs and GDP collapses.

Life in the A is horrible. Many lose their jobs and GDP collapses.

L lasts three to ten years as the economy is re-engineered to sustainable wealth creating industries. House prices fall c.50% from peak to trough, with little chance of rising for many, many, years. People start saving. Money is sound and the Pound holds up relatively well, considering the situation. With sound money the populace is able to clothe and feed themselves, the lights stay on. The State supports those in trouble. It invests in retraining.

A leads to a collapse in the Pound as the markets realise that the country can never repay interest and principal. This leads to unsound money and rising inflation as import prices explode. Interest rates need to rise but this will gut the debtors. Wage policies are enacted and a spiral of inflation takes hold. This leads to hardcore poverty for millions as the Middle Class sees it’s wealth vanish. With a collapsed currency few are able to holiday abroad. The IMF are called in and State spending is slashed.

Both A and L lead to a drop in living standards for the populace. The key plus for L is that once the pain is out of the way a new base for growth and prosperity can be engineered. The balance sheet is strong enough.

With A the balance sheet is wrecked and the Middle Class has been devastated. Argentina is a prime example of what happens when the wealth of the Middle Class is squandered.

In the L one gets a sharp painful deflationary depression.

In the A one gets depflation and the country becomes an Undeveloping Nation.

Our ruling elite and most of the punditocracy are taking us to A.

-----

There are some incredibly tough choices to be made, personally, I think only a government of National Unity could do it. The next ruling government is probably going to be the most hated in history.

Tim Carpenter LPUK

@Kittler: "Free market means surrendering sovereignty, to global finance and commerce, and to international markets."

It is not a matter of Sovereignty unless one thinks the State should (continue to) poke its nose into the private lawful interactions of individuals.

A State operating under Rule of (Common) Law should only have the Sovereignty that is temporarily lent it by the population, usually via a process of democratic elections, to defend that population from force and fraud.

The main threat of force and fraud upon me now comes from a State that interferes where it has no right or rational justification to.

Roger Clarke

"Britain is less racist, more dynamic place than in the past and less dangerous than before."

Before being when precisely?

How can we be less "racist" than in 1960 when immigration levels were still low?

George Carey said that there was "visceral" distress about the mass immigration into this country, he's right.

Less dangerous? Who says so? The regime?

"It has spawned countless new industries"

All "knowlege based" no doubt.

We have seen plenty of financial innovation of course. Like Lehman's $50 billions scam put through London because it would have been illegal in the USA

"Its institutions – like the Foreign Office, the Financial Times, and the Queen – continue to inspire others."

The FO? You're having a laugh, I don't suppose the Queen's overly impressed either

"Furthermore, Europe has been shaped more by British ideas in the last twenty years than German or French in-put. Through enlargement to the east, the EU is now firmly anglophile, and leans away from dirigisme and towards free-market philosophies"

It's cracking that English people can't apply for jobs in their own country - only Poles wanted.

Printing money to the tune of £200 billions to rig the debt market, splendid.

£8 billion trade deficit even though "growth" is near nil.

Fiscal defict of 13% of GDP

Stupid French and Germans - how they must envy us.

This article is from Planet Pangloss.

W'hampton, Coventry, Barnsley, Doncaster, Hull, M'boro etc etc - all wrecked

And doomed to spiral down irremediably when the spending gets the chopper - after the election

Olaf Rye

It is difficult to remain optimistic when you are broke and the worst of the recession has not even passed. Moreover, it is particularly difficult when 30% of the electorate is sufficiently stupid that they have expressed an intention to cast their ballot in favour of the Labour government and thus condemn us to a future of greater debt, more state control and regulation, and an army of bureaucrats to control our lives. The bureaucrats are largely the flotsam and jetsam of the world of employment, seeking well paid positions in the civil service because they prize security in their jobs. At some point, they have probably fooled themselves into believing, by dint of their position, that they are competent and know what they are doing. All that is necessary to disabuse them of this pleasing delusion is to point out how everything here is in decline. The NHS is rubbish, leaving people to die of cancer because it is not cost effective to treat them, but they are happy to pay for sex change operations, IVF for lesbians and single women, and mobs of bureaucrats that allow the hospitals to become stinking pits of infection. We have a first class military, the envy of the world, that is persistently underequipped and deployed on missions with moronic rules of engagement devised by sixth-form common room socialists. Education is rubbish: many students cannot read and write properly, nor have numeracy skills, but we do seem to lead the world in Media Studies degrees for 'working class' students whilst our better ones run abroad. Let us consider our rubbish roads, the judiciary that coddles criminals and treats them as victims, social services that crucify middle-class people attempting to adopt but allow lunatics to abuse their children, the media sucking off every leftist darling in sight such as Muslim fanatics, a corrupt political class, and so on. Yes, we are in decline and it might help if the media banged on about the revolting state that this nation has found itself in rather than trying to polish a turd in some delusional paroxysm of 'hope'. Even 'hope' and 'change' have been sullied by the media's love of Obama and their sudden silence at how he has cocked up everything.

Kittler

Tim Carpenter
A free market means no State interference with stuff like exchange and immigration control.
Free marketeers do not want borders fettered by State bureaucrats. Exchange control has long gone and immigration is going, because business want more customers and cheap labour, and the middle classes, lots more wallahs to tidy gardens, wash cars, and polish boots.

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

@ Shorty 5:33 p.m.

"But today is the tomorrow they didn’t worry about yesterday".

Brilliant !!!
You're the man !!
Keep it up old son!!!
Music to our collective ears.

Athesiua the Facilitator

If excess litter in the streets and on the roads is the first sign of decline then we are stuffed. This country is a sh.. hole and few seem to care.

Marcher Baron

How do you square "tax incentives for child-rearing ... or immigration ..." with the fact that the population is set to explode to unsustainable levels according to the ONS?

Otto

Reality....Britain is a mid sized and reasonably successful economy based on an island about 21 miles off the coast of Europe. It likes to kid itself it has some special relationship with the US which is a complete mirage....our only value to the Americans is make up the numbers at the UN, provide cover for US unilateralism and lend some cannon fodder from our fairly efficient but under capitalised military. We have largely marginalised ourselves in Europe by pursuit of this chimera, non participation in the Euro, and the fact that a majority of representatives of one of our two major parties actually wishes to leave the EU even though this would be economically suicidal. At some point the UK is going to have to some serious thinking about its future although that will be difficult with so much of the debate dominated by the Murdochian national media (Murdoch lives in the US btw)......I see no sign of this happening in the near future and indeed we have the odd spectacle of the conservatives who took us into the EU and are ostensibly the party of "business" wanting to opt out while Labour increasingly becomes the pro Europe party....all very odd when in fact Britain has no real future outside the EU imperium......no one would like to turn the clock back to July 1914 than me but it isn't going to happen and the sooner the UK polity grows up and recognizes this fact the better.

Tim Carpenter LPUK

@Kettler,

While we have a welfare state we need to have immigration control. That is just common sense. Anyone who wants open borders before that time (Labour?) are naive.

You also appear to begrudge exchange controls - since when did the State think it could control private wealth? FYI I am in favour of Free Banking, i.e. Removal of the monopoly of currency from the BoE so banks can produce their own currencies. The competition will be a check on State fiscal incontinence.

Maturecheese

Many things need to be fixed in Britain. OK – a lot of things need fixing. Nearly 20 percent of the population is over 65 -- a proportion the Office for National Statistics predicts will have grown by 50 percent by 2020. That is an economic time-bomb that has to be defused either by tax incentives for child-rearing (like in France) or immigration (like the US) – but in ways that address concerns about over-crowding, limited housing, and the erosion of Britain’s values.

My problem with this argument is where does it end. In twenty or even forty years time when the population of the UK is something awful like 80/90 million, we will probably still have people saying the same thing. There HAS to be another way apart from just growing the population to pay pensions.

terence patrick hewett

If Thatcher taught us one thing, it is this: that one person can make a difference and what has been done can be undone; that the rot can be stopped and reversed. If we get rid of the succubus Brown and his collection of degenerate spivs, within two years, Britain will be a better and a very different place.

Jean Monnet

I have time to take issue with only two things here:

"many of the 1000 quangos will have to be abolished"

Easily the most expensive (and divisive) of these quangos are the 12 regional development agencies. Will your beloved EU let us abolish these, Mr Korski? No.

"numerous FCO consulates closed"

You wouldn't, you know, perhaps have an agenda here, would you? I don't know but I'll hazard a guess: that you would rather the EU represented Britain abroad via the EAS. Just a guess, mind. Not a big supporter of the nation state, are you?

Would you mind sorting out Denmark's problems before sticking your nose in our affairs? Thanks ever so!

Grumpy Optimist

Thank you djw - you read Bill Bonner too. He writes beautifully doesn't he - almost a spiritual message. I am afraid though that you are deluding yourself if you believe that a government of national unity will deliver L. We are hooked on debt and on the government telling us that we can avoid any pain. But as you say - the government cannot save us from ourselves. Sooner or later the debt has either to be repaid or inflated away and we have to either accept a big cut in living standards or raise our productivity.

Pretty grim really and Daniel doesn't get it. But who does?

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

@ Olaf Rye 7:00p.m.

"At some point, they have probably fooled themselves into believing, by dint of their position, that they are competent and know what they are doing".

Olaf :-
Gordon loves it when you talk dirty.

Grumpy Optimist

Re my last post - I was of course referring to Short the UK. Sorry.

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

Olaf :-

"Amen".

Noa Zrk

"Europe has been shaped more by British ideas in the last twenty years than German or French in-put".
But Britain has been shaped beyond recognition by the worst that Europe has to offer.
Federation without consultation, taxation without representation, regulation by enforced integration.
It's well past the time to halt and then reverse the unholy combination of globalisation, free open markets, unlimited benefits and unrestricted immigration which has done so much to destroy our economy, culture and social structure.
A return to the fundamentals of an open, honest, minimalist government securing our national interests first will be fundamental to the reversal of decline.

Noa Zrk

Roger Clarke, Olaf Rye

Yep

TomTom

England, for Britain is an artificial construct, was shaped by Tudors and Victorians and almost wrecked by Stuarts before the decline set in in the 1890s....accelerated in the 1920s and went into turbo-drive after 1943.

Elizabeth I presided over the greatness of England as Elizabeth II presided over its unravelling. Britain was strong - like the Netherlands - as a Northern European Protestant Power.

That was the basis of its greatness and its decay the cause of collapse - just as in the USA

Olaf Rye

Perhaps leaving the EU is economically suicidal, but I think it is time that we honestly weigh up the options. Is the economic benefit of submitting to the EU edicts worth surrendering our liberties for ? This is the fundamental question: we are being bribed to give up our traditions, freedoms and national independence for access to the EU market. I must say, it is a price that I am not happy to pay for the chimera of international amity. We are always at the losing end in our relationship with Europe--in fact, most North European nations pay more than we receive to be part of this entity, so we can subsidise the grandiose ambitions of an inveterately undemocratic mob in Brussels and venal and corrupt types in southern Europe. It may hurt, and it may be ugly, but withdrawal is not a bad option given the alternative of being affluently servile whilst the EU Court of Human Rights decides our laws for us. As our American colleagues often say, 'Freedom is Not Free' and if our liberty is for sale for the sake of material comfort, then there is perhaps no hope at all for us.

Short the UK

Grumpy,

You are right L will never happen. Still the choice is on the table for serious people.

This isn't like the 80s when we had a hard currency, our currency now verges on being a work of fiction. We are like an aristocrat who has been living large, when the creditors come for payment they find he is skint.

Merv the Magician is going to be printing and printing, we have become a basket case.

The quicker the elite get these concepts into their collective heads the sooner we can figure a way out of this disaster:

~Undeveloping Nation.
~State Sponsored Inflation.
~Bubble of Britain.
~Debt Junkies.
~Bubble Addicts.
~Structural not Cyclical.
~Sound Money.
~Debt Super Cycle.
~Sane Savers.
~Economy not Viable.
~Stagausflation.
~Depflation.
~Living Within your Means.

It ain't rocket science, just common sense.

Where are the real Conservatives!!!

Kittler

Tim Carpenter
Immigration control may be "common sense" but it is socialism.
The most effective border controls are in socialist states.
Eastern Europe once had the most impervious frontiers, almost impossible to get in, or out.

Otto

TomTom
March 14th, 2010 8:35pm

....Britain's "unravelling" was inevitable and happened long before Elizabeth became Queen or even was born.....You cannot sustain a worldwide empire in an age of nationalisms with a population of 45 million and an economic base of a mid sized power.....Read a few books by Mackinder or more recently Paul Kennedy

Otto

Olaf Rye
March 14th, 2010 8:43pm

......This all sounds very fine but principles don't pay the grocery bills.......The tory party's big problem is that basically your mindset is essentially the prevailing one......the leadership of course knows this is all nonsense (intellectually when out of power and by reality when in power) so they are forced to try and square the circle which inevitably is destructive of party unity and governmental coherence as was so classically demonstrated during the Major government and would almost certainly would be replayed in a Cameron one.

Olaf Rye

Well, perhaps it is an idealistic position I entertain Otto: you are right to say that it does not pay the grocery bills, but is this all our freedom is worth ? We need to re-think our position vis-a-vis Europe and we must ask if access to the European market is worth all this. No one is probably opposed to a free-trade agreement with Europe, but the EU has become a political entity that seeks to limit our freedoms and rights. Give the disaster that our economy is in, and that Europe is scarcely any better off, we might try to strike out and find other trading partners and develop something quite different. Being Danish by origin, I can say that it might not be too difficult to lure the Scandinavian nations away from Europe and into another trading block with Britain and much of Eastern Europe based merely on the principle of free flow of goods and capital. I must say, the economic hardship that would ensue is to my mind worth the re-acquisition of our freedoms. No party will pursue this policy, but then again, no party in Britain actually believes in individual liberty. All of them have a paternalistic view of society and the public at large is happy to surrender their freedom for affluence and a job. In this way, the USSR and the Nazis are probably chuckling at how we gave away what so many fought to secure so that we can have holidays abroad, buy a new car, and not worry about losing our jobs.

tom Holland

"Britain is less racist, more dynamic place than in the past and less dangerous than before. It has spawned countless new industries, Olympians to inspire and remains the best place to do business in Europe"

Does anyone know what planet this bloke is on?

Otto

Olaf Rye
March 14th, 2010 10:04pm

The EU is not the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany.....the fact that you advance such nonsensical premises suggests that you are regrettably deeply out of touch with reality.......unfortunately as I pointed out earlier it is not an entirely alien view in today's Tory party and will have the results I predicted if they win the election which in fact, somewhat to my surprise, I'm starting to think they won't.

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

"And I for one intend to ignore the siren’s call of decline".

Good man, Daniel.
Just keep the fingers in the ears, and continue singing "la-la-la-la-la-la" as loud as you can.
Maybe you're right.
Maybe it'll all come out in the wash.
Sounds like there could be a future for you as a Parliamentarian.

PuppetMaster

I don't think I've ever read anybody quoting Gramsci before. You must be Oxbridge.

Olaf Rye

Not Nazi Germany, but the parallels with the USSR are pretty obvious. At every point, our freedoms are restricted by their laws and we are denied an opportunity to vote on them. They moreover hold as many referenda as necessary to get the 'right' answer. Let us not forget the attempt by some MEPs to argue that criticism of the EU is akin to blasphemy, which was fortunately rejected. It lacks the suppressive organs of the USSR, but this is about all, at least until we have the warrants enforced by Brussels which would even see us denied full translations of charges and legal proceedings as reported in the papers this week. It is, above all, a Statist entity that seeks to force us to comply with all their regulations by coercion--that is to say, the first thing out of the bag is a club. Awful stuff that should make people shudder with worry if these people suddenly have more grandiose ambitions. Again, I would emphasise that liberty is not for sale amongst many of us merely for a secure job and trading opportunities.

Otto

"Does anyone know what planet this bloke is on?"

......the same one as me because it's broadly true...and I grew up in Britain but have also worked in five other countries as well as this one.....if you think otherwise it is you alas who are the visitor from a another planet (or at the very least a bit out of touch with reality)

Olaf Rye

I hasten to add, too, that I did not draw a direct comparison with the USSR and Nazi Germany. I pointed out that many of the freedoms that we fought for collectively in Europe and the Americas have been surrendered. This is not something that has occurred exclusively because of the EU, for we have happily given these freedoms away to a welfare state. Nonetheless, the EU happens to be terribly secretive and loves to interfere in our lives in an extraordinary manner. It was supposed to be a free-trade organisation, but now it seeks to regulate all aspects of our lives. What does a social charter have to do with free-trade ? Also, the Human Rights Act ? In a word, absolutely nothing. Is this free-trade ? Of course not, but the blandishments of trade advantage have blinded people to the essentially intrusive character of this organisation. Many domestic politicians are pleased, too, with invoking the EU edicts to justify further intrusion by the state. Even the EU's own rules are suspended whenever there is political advantage in doing so: what happened to the economic stability agreements that were to keep budgetary deficits low ? How did the fiasco of Greece occur without any forewarning ? At bottom, though, is integration into this morass of bureaucracy and state control what we want our future to be entirely dependent on ?

Verity

Jean Monnet - Bravo!

Major Plonquer

The reason for Britain's decline is obviously that all of us with any sense buggered off years ago. You clowns who are still dumb enough to live there actually elected a Labour Government. Three times. Speaks volumes, matey.

Though I particularly liked the funny bit about the Financial Times being an admirable institution. That really cracked me up.

Anyone for more jiaozi?

Verity

Olaf Rye - Neither Norway, with all its oil, nor Switzerland, is in the EU. They both trade with the EU as independent entities and they're rolling in gravy.

A canton in Switzerland banned islamic minarets. That wouldn't have been "legal" in Britain or France or Germany.

Which governance do you prefer?

And what the hell do you people in Britain think you get out of the EU, given that you are one of the biggest contributors?

Nothing.

Neither Norway nor Switzerland are "members" of this fascist circle of hell, yet they do just great. Because they aren't ruled by the EHRA, so can disallow "immigrant" entry to whomever they please without long blah-blah-blah European 'judges' in pretend courts that have no legitimacy and have no history with their country handing down "rulings".

I hope the truly bizarre Edward Heath is roasting. Who were his supporters, byw? How did anyone ever put their faith in this creepy individual?

TomTom

..You cannot sustain a worldwide empire in an age of nationalisms with a population of 45 million

Who said we could ? Churchill surrendered the British Empire to the USA. The issue is not Empire but United Kingdom. The British Empire was over before George VI died.....his daughter has presided over the disintegration of the British Realm as her Church and Government have destroyed the nation

Rainer Unsinn

"stuck in a rot from which it cannot escape"

Britain entered the rut in 1997 and will have no way to escape until this totally delusional Govt is consigned to history.

Nicholas

Otto refutes comparison between the EU and the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany through ridicule of those suggesting it.

But the fact remains, putting to one side the dramatic extremes that have been sharply revealed in hindsight, that both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were characterised by increasingly oppressive bureaucracies and unaccountable officials.

The EU's progress is being marked by exactly those twin characteristics. Otto needs to realise that historic realities are determined by outcomes not intentions. The EU is travelling in a direction that needs the brakes applying and critical, objective self-examination. There is nothing hastier, more foolish or potentially more dangerous than a bandwagon full of socialists.

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

@Short the UK 9pm
"This isn't like the 80s when we had a hard currency, our currency now verges on being a work of fiction. We are like an aristocrat who has been living large, when the creditors come for payment they find he is skint".

Yeah, Shorty.
Our French friends would refer to us as "l'homme de paille".
With a Wurzel Gummidge currency !!!

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

@Major Plonquer 3:22a.m.

"The reason for Britain's decline is obviously that all of us with any sense buggered off years ago. You clowns who are still dumb enough to live there actually elected a Labour Government. Three times".

I left the UK in 2007 Major. I am not the reason for Britain's decline. I am a result of Britain's decline.

Tim Carpenter LPUK

Otto and Olaf, remember that it is not UK trade with the EU but UK based companies with EU based companies. If the "danger" of leaving the EU (i.e the trade block/'internal' market) is so great, then that is all the more reason to leave! Will the EU try and prevent EU based companies trading? Will they erect special tariffs to "punish" us? Are the trade barriers for ordinary non-EU countries already high, putting our goods and services at a disadvantage? If so then again this a very strong argument to LEAVE. Who wants to be inside (Prison) Fortress Europe in terms of trade, having to swap over-priced uncompetitive goods churned out by a cartel of Corporatists? Our goods will get in if they are of sufficient quality and value and that, friends, should actually be the whole point. Most, if not all "reasons" to stay in are in fact an advertisement to leave the bullying entity as soon as possible!

@kittler: I notice you don't deny the fact about the linkage of immigration controls with a welfare system, but try and come up with disingenuous "socialist" labelling as a (failed) distracting countermeasure. It is not "socialist" if one knows it is bad, flawed, needs to be dismantled but, until other changes occur, the least-bad option we have.

Olaf Rye

Verity,

Remember, I am the anti-EU one--it was Otto making apologies for the bloody thing !

Verity

Olaf - Apologies.

In general, the EU was obviously designed on the USSR system from the outset, which is why Ted Heath loved it so much.

Interesting that only two countries had the clarity of vision to stay out: Norway and Switzerland, who are, nevertheless, prospering. And are not bound by the Fascists in Brussels. As we know, a canton in Switzerland recently had a referendum, which passed, a "no more minarets, please; we're Swiss" referendum.

On this side of the Atlantic, NAFTA is working well with absolutely no political involvement. Strictly trade. I recently had some Marmite shipped in that was manufactured in Canada and exported to a shop in Texas with no duties, and a couple of jars were subsequently sent on to me by the shop. And not a penny in tariffs for either transaction. That is what the people in Britain thought the EFTA was going to be about.

In NAFTA, there is absolutely no joint political involvement. Each country goes its own way. And in the US, each of the 50 states goes more or less its own way unless it's a federal issue.

The EUSSR is a nightmare construct.