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Wednesday, 17th March 2010

The cost of Brown's propaganda splurge

Fraser Nelson 10:27pm

Gordon Brown has been shameless in using the tools of state to advance his party political objectives – to him, government is electoral war by other means. Anyone who has turned on a commercial radio station recently will have worked out his latest trick: a mass propaganda splurge before an election campaign. Get on a bus, and it can be 100 percent state adverts – advising how Big Brother will help you get a job, buy a car, see off door-to-door salesmen, give you a job in the prison services – anything you want.

We at The Spectator have tracked down the figures that show the extent of all this. State advertising was £13 million in December – yet surged to £34 million last month. To put this in perspective, the cap on election spending is £19 million. No way could Gordon Brown raise this cash honestly. So he has unleashed what is, I suspect, the biggest propaganda spend in British history. The various advertising messages will chime with Labour's "big government will protect you" message – boasting about wonderful things which the state does. It goes without saying that such services are at risk from spending cuts. The UK government is now the biggest advertising spender in the land, a title it has held since 1998. The annual figures are published openly, but the monthly figures are circulated internally within the advertising industry. This is what they say:

Now, why is the spend so high? CoffeeHousers may be familiar with the argument that advertising rates are cheap due to the recession, so that’s why we hear more from the government. But if this were the motive, then the cost of these adverts would not be going through the roof.

As we say in the Spectator’s editorial in tomorrow’s edition, Brown has been trying to use the tools of state to rig the election since he took over. His tactic is to employ as much of the electorate as he can (for every three private sector jobs since 1997, there have been five public sector jobs – a million more state workers) and his propaganda budget is simply another means to achieve the same end. I think we have just identified a very easy way for George Osborne to save money from 8 May onwards.

Filed under: Advertising (27 more articles) , Election 2010 (598 more articles) , Gordon Brown (906 more articles) , Labour (2013 more articles) , Media (427 more articles) , Public sector (112 more articles) , Public spending (120 more articles) , UK politics (4907 more articles)

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SouthSeaStu

March 17th, 2010 10:48pm Report this comment

Please help me. I am just a simple Essex boy and cannot understand how anybody can get away with this. Surely, there must be some kind of constitutional measure to bring this guy to justice? I presume that these pages are read by people that must know the law. Please, Please tell me why we cannot bring this Scotsman to justice? Our gold, our economy our soldiers. It must be treasonous to do this.

Short the UK

March 17th, 2010 10:51pm Report this comment

Brown would make Hugo Chavez proud.

New Labour = New Traitors.

cmp

March 17th, 2010 10:55pm Report this comment

This guy would never have even been elected had he gone before the people. Makes my blood boil.

Hawkeye

March 17th, 2010 10:58pm Report this comment

There is so much wastage in the system that saving money will not be all that hard.

The first bill to get through in the first week of the new parliament is the "Cancellation of scorched earth projects" bill allowing the new govt to override Brown's cancellation penalty clauses at no cost to HM Govt.

davefromluton

March 17th, 2010 11:05pm Report this comment

And in Luton we (mostly the Government)are to spend £89 million (yes eighty-nine million)on a guided bus way between Luton and Dunstable.
But nobody (except a few Labour politicians) wants it.
The world has gone mad!

Fernando

March 17th, 2010 11:11pm Report this comment

The 'nationalised' banks seem to be at it, as well, with silly ads from the NatWest and Halifax showing what a grear service rhey give. Barclays and HSBC don't appear to waste their money in the same way.

2trueblue

March 17th, 2010 11:43pm Report this comment

Brown knows no other way so it is no surprise that he assumes that he has the right to spend our money to further his own ends. This is our money, yet again, and then we have to put up with the BBC etc spending our money supporting Brown and Liebore.
The Torys will have to be so careful on the cuts issues as Liebore will be looking for anything to use as a taper.

Jonathan_T

March 17th, 2010 11:46pm Report this comment

"In the 12 months to the end of March 2009 the COI's budget increased by 43% year on year. The amount spent on traditional advertising – including TV, press and radio – increased by 35% year on year to £211m. Spending on digital marketing rose 84% to £40m"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/feb/04/m4c-coi-media-buying

Daniel

March 17th, 2010 11:56pm Report this comment

This is small fry in the unreported scandle stakes. Look up BERR's "Union Modernisation Fund" - a grant scheme to fund trades union 'modernisation' initiatives. Taxpayer funded kick-backs to the Labour Party in the most unbelievably transparent fashion imaginable. How much has gone to UNITE, and then straight back to Labour Party coffers?

ish

March 18th, 2010 12:14am Report this comment

This is shocking. I may be one of the (very) few traditional Labour voters that regularly reads this blog, appreciating its intelligent and independent comment despite my / its politics. For me it has been a slow but steady journey of disatisfaction since ’97 and – bizzare as it may seem – I feel I have reached the end of the journey reading this. Why this not Iraq genocide or financial ruin you may (understandanly) may ask? I am not sure, but perhaps because it brings home the Orwellian nature of the government more tangibly than anything else I have read. Quite frightening. Not that I could ever bring myself to vote Tory.

I wonder whether this story will resonate with the wider public...?!

Major Plonquer

March 18th, 2010 12:21am Report this comment

This is simply not correct. The money used by Government has a cyclic economic stimulus effect as the money spent by government on advertising is recycled. Initially the money is used by such great British companies such as The Guardian and Google to create tens of millions of jobs. These companies then pay tax - except of course for Google who buggered off to Ireland at the first hint of trouble.

The employees and companies who result from this advertising investment themselves pay tax (except of course for the Guardian who consistently lose money and are therefore exempt from paying tax).

It is these honest, hard working employees who slave every day so that our children can have basic human rights such as the right to take mephedrone at school.

So you see, the Labour party are not engaging in a bout of self promotion. No. They are getting on with the job of government and ensuring our very future.

Paul Owen

March 18th, 2010 12:50am Report this comment

On my blog recently I ran a series called Things that Gordon said. Most of these date back to when he was in opposition and was criticising the Tories for things he is now doing himself only more so. Here is what he said in 1997 before the election:

'Lies. It's the Conservatives big lie technique. To state a lie, repeat it, spending millions on advertising and posters to promote it, hoping that the bigger the lie and the more often it is repeated, the people will start to believe it.'

laverda

March 18th, 2010 1:04am Report this comment

A totally corrupt government. When will people understand what happens when governments do what they want and when unchallenged simply carry on until we have a dictatorship. Seriously the UK is in danger of having to use the military to get rid of this awful government.

drakes drum

March 18th, 2010 2:35am Report this comment

Many of us have tried to seek the Queen's intervention, particularily over the Lisbon treaty, for her to speak up for her people.
Sadly, she does not want to know.

The Courts would be useless because all the judges are appointed by this shower. So no justice there!

The military have been removed to fight in distant wars, been underfunded and under resourced, so that they could not be called upon to stage a take over!

The Conservatives have to be our only hope but that means getting people out to vote. I think the Unite business will galvanise people's attention, as long as the Tories keep on and on about it as well as the underfunding of our troops!

This issue of advertising is just an absolute disgrace and reeks of communism. I think we are heading for a real constitutional crisis, if it is a hung parliament, because I do not see Brown budging from Downing Street. The Unions will support him as will the EU, who will offer him assistance!

It is the stuff of novels, but it is coming to a street near you, very soon!

Moraymint

March 18th, 2010 6:50am Report this comment

It is utterly obscene, isn't it?

How does he get away with it? Why does the mainstream media not run with this sort of story? Have we really reached Orwell's 1984?

Austin Barry

March 18th, 2010 7:12am Report this comment

"His tactic is to employ as much of the electorate as he can ..."

Or import it from abroad or keep it on the welfare roll.

Simon

March 18th, 2010 7:20am Report this comment

You can listen to local radio anymore without been bombarded by adverts on scrapage, stds, drinking, domestic abuse, how bad it feels to kill a child by speeding, and a thousand over government adverts. You end been driven back to BBC radio so you don't have to listen to the adverts! No escape.

Nick

March 18th, 2010 7:38am Report this comment

A possible alternative could be the increase in spend is not allocated for one month, but an amount for the commitment of guaranteed spend over the next x months, just raised in Feb IOs. Media agencies/suppliers often work like this to reduce advertising rates in exchange for higher revenues.

Boudicca

March 18th, 2010 8:17am Report this comment

The second thing Osborne should cancel is the Union 'Modernisation' Grant - which is really just a vehicle by which taxpayers money is fed to Labour.

Moraymint

March 18th, 2010 8:19am Report this comment

Major Plonquer
March 18th, 2010 12:21am

"They are getting on with the job of government and ensuring our very future ..."

Yes, and wasn't there something about us all getting to go to the fair in future?

Moriarty

March 18th, 2010 8:20am Report this comment

You are forgetting their biggest propaganda arm, the one paid for by all of us. I note that the BBC, in collusion with the Cabinet Office, has decided to give the Ashcroft story legs. No mention of Unite, needless to say.

JJS

March 18th, 2010 8:27am Report this comment

Please let's not forget that GW Bush became US president via an election in which results were far from unambiguous. How do we make sure that the same thing does not happen here shortly (in our as yet unnamed election - see a pattern in the modus operandi, perhaps)? Brown is DETERMINED to be PM - against all sensible predictions he is still in No. 10. How does any of this work?

Tim Robson

March 18th, 2010 8:36am Report this comment

What I would like the Tories to do come May 7th is cut the Guardian off at the knees. Advertise public sector jobs on the internet and stop the gross hand out to the leftie media by way of jobs adverts. Oh and cut the jobs that need advertising of course!

Rhoda Klapp

March 18th, 2010 8:40am Report this comment

People notice the ads, and people get annoyed. They don't like to be lectured by the man in whitehall who knows best. If he thinks he can get a vote by showing those ads about people having two drinks and destroying their health, he must be deluded. And the one about contraceptive methods? That ship has long departed from the shores of Rhoda, let me tell you.

strapworld

March 18th, 2010 8:45am Report this comment

Perhaps, Mr Nelson, you should be getting your intrepid journalists to bombard the Electoral Commission with demands that they investigate this and the fact that Unite pay the salary's of people within Brown's office. That surely must count towards electoral expenses - although, of course, such expenses can only be brought into play once an election is called. Or am I wrong?

But the Electoral Commission is yet another quango in the grip, in my opinion, of this stalinist government, so we cannot expect joy there!

The BBC, in their own 'unbiased' manner have tried to play Ashcoft again today.

Many days ago I complainedafter I was listening to Victoria Derbyshire's 'unbiased' programme in which she would not entertain any mention of any Labour donor just totally anti Ashcroft. I coupled it with Nick, I get more than the PM, Robinson and his totally 'unbiased' reporting on the same day, on the same subject.

I received a reply from the BBC:
" Thanks for your e-mail regarding 'Victoria Derbyshire' on Radio 5 live.I understand you feel Victoria's show, and other BBC news programmes, have been biased against the Conservative party in its reporting of Lord Ashcroft's "non-dom" status.

The question of whether the Conservative party's single biggest donor and Deputy Chairman is a full British taxpayer is one which has been asked repeatedly by both the media and political opponents in recent years, ever since his first application to become a peer was rejected a decade ago precisely over his residency status and therefore what UK tax he was paying."

the long email ended:-

"Our coverage of this story has been fair, balanced and wide-ranging and we will continue to report any further developments in the same manner."

One can complain to the BBC Trust but it is all part of the same club.

We need an Office for Public Complaints a strong body who could investigate, independently, of all government interference, all complaints against public bodies and government.

This body having the power to demand resignations, sackings etc when complaints ofabuse, such as the story on abuse of govermental advertising, and bias within the public service broadcasting corporation are proven!

Perhaps The Spectator could chew this idea over and put it to the Conservatives. Yes it would be a Quango, BUT this one would be for the people to complain and know their complaint will be handled properly.

Naomi Muse

March 18th, 2010 9:02am Report this comment

Gordon Profligate Propagandist Brown is a man of the manse..no wonder that churches are being brought into disrepute.

Some tv channels have nothing but government advertising, as noted on blogs before, it's either chlamydia or transplants, or skills or something but all nothing but government puff.

At this stage of the game what used to be essential information campaigns by the then ministry of information, have been succeeded by overtly politicised campaigns for which the only purpose is to ensure that Broon and the goons are returned to power.

What about the good of the country?

What about the good of the electorate?

These questions should come up in the public debates along with how Broon could possibly have not known that Defence Spending had been cut for several years when he was Chancellor, and yet he did not know when he was the PM being questioned specifically about that by the Chilcott Enquiry?

Disingenuous? Perhaps. A complete out and out liar?

DangerDave

March 18th, 2010 9:07am Report this comment

Thank god you have posted this. I thought I was the only one that had noticed that almost every ad on LBC was a government one.

Sing this from the rooftops.

Maggie

March 18th, 2010 9:14am Report this comment

I have just complained to the Today programme. As Der Speigel says today "The British pound is tottering. The economy finds itself in its worst crisis since 1931, and the country came within a hair's breadth of a deep recession. Speculators are betting against an upturn. Instability in the banking sector has had a more severe impact on government finances in Great Britain than in other industrialized countries. This year the UK's budget deficit will amount to £186 billion, 12.9 percent of gross domestic product. " Our budget deficit is worse than that of Greece.
There is a BA strike in the offing and the Unite union is recruiting foreign unions in an effort to destroy a British company.
Neither of these stories, both of which are of national importance, have been mentioned by Today. They have devoted their entire programme to 'leaked papers' about Lord Ashcroft. How does the once mighty BBC expect anyone to take them seriously as a news organisation?

Vulture

March 18th, 2010 9:19am Report this comment

Congratulations, Fraser on an exemplary piece of digging.

Now its up to the Tories to turn your figures into lethal bullets against this murderously corrupt bunch of would-be dictators.

And while we're on the subject of figures. Have you the latest immigration figures to hand? Quite a few of us would REALLY be interested in them too.

Neil Turner

March 18th, 2010 9:20am Report this comment

Well said Frazer

Might also be worth asking, "who also benefits?"

ITV, Sky, Channel 4, TalkSport (in fact any commercial operation). Surely they won't bite the hand that feeds them in these economic times ?

Looking, for example, at Sky's bias against the Tories, and sympathetic way it reports the Government, is clear evidence that Brown's policy buys influence

Tagine

March 18th, 2010 9:23am Report this comment

There's another good reason why ad spend peaks in March each year: it's the financial year-end for government departments - time to use up the budget. The graph shows that the spend in February this year is close to the peak for last year. It's a safe bet that, continuing the short term-trend, the figure for March will be substantially higher still.

se1man

March 18th, 2010 9:34am Report this comment

From my copy of Marketing Magazine, dated yesterday, "The Conservatives have pledged to slash its [COI] £540m 'turnover' by 40% to bring it back to 1997 levels. According to Nielsen, almost £208m was spent on advertising alone last year..."

So your figures above only account for less than half of the cost of all this. Sure the media spend in Jan/Feb is obscenely high, but think of all the apparatus behind this spend, costing us more than double what we actually see in advertising!

The marketing industry is starting to feel like as much a part of Labour's client state as the BBC/Health/Education etc...

David Parker

March 18th, 2010 10:02am Report this comment

Clearly, Brown has taken a leaf out of the book of the EU Commission, whose spending(of our money) upon propaganda and self promotion knows no bounds.

wrinkled weasel

March 18th, 2010 10:27am Report this comment

SouthSeaStu, it is treason. In a very slightly different set of circumstances, Brown and his colleagues would be on trial. Sadly, the entire political class are complicit and unable to mount a proper opposition. There is weakness in the system, allowing those who have only self-serving ambition to thrive. The expenses scandal is a case in point. It turns out, they were nearly all at it. But of course, it is even worse than that, for recently, rules were secretly changed to prevent two members of the House of Lords from being prosecuted for fraud.

People lament the rise of extreme parties, yet it is the logical result of corruption and stagnation within the ranks of those we entrust with governance.

I want a revolution. It is probably time we took to the streets, or looked to the military to take over. It's not as if they are big pals with Gordon right now.

Tom Pride

March 18th, 2010 11:17am Report this comment

Make them pay it back.

Dorothy Wilson

March 18th, 2010 11:19am Report this comment

Drakes Drum: Please stop maligning the poor Queen. Successive governments have watered down her powers to the point where it would be virtually impossible for her to intervene - even if she wanted to.

Moraymint

March 18th, 2010 11:29am Report this comment

wrinkled weasel
March 18th, 2010 10:27am

"I want a revolution"

I know how you feel.

The problem is that those of us who understand the depth and scope of the truly unholy mess that is now British politics, our economy and our society remain in a distinct minority.

I'm convinced that most British citizens are really only vaguely aware that something could be wrong with this country. By and large, it's no big thing and everything should turn out alright in the end ... just give it a couple of years ... sort of thing.

As usual Wat Tyler is on the money; see his postcript to this blog post:

http://tinyurl.com/yjmfc6x

Here I go again. Most of our fellow citizens will not know what in hell has hit them about this time next year; in fact the hit could well come during the second half of 2010.

There really is a steam train coming down the tracks - the leading indicators are everywhere you look. Most folk ain't looking.

Sir Graphus

March 18th, 2010 11:43am Report this comment

You might care to look into this a little more deeply; your graph shows a spending spike at the start of every year. Nick (March 18th, 2010 7:38am) hints that there may well be a reason.

I agree with your general point about the advertising, though; it has very significantly blurred the line between govt and party.

Piers Fallowcherry

March 18th, 2010 11:55am Report this comment

Look, I don't know much about these things so feel free to correct me as violently as you wish ... but it seems to me that that the big Feb/March rises have a lot to with spending departmental budgets before the fiscal year is out. A bit similar to all those roadworks that appear during the same months.
Overall though: excellent point Editor Nelson and I have so missed your graphs of late.

DangerDave

March 18th, 2010 12:54pm Report this comment

@Moraymint
March 18th, 2010 11:29am

I entirely agree with your post and indeed more or less all of what you post on the speccie comments.

I sense a kindred spirit insofar as I think we both run small businesses that have been hugely affected by this monumental economic cock up and the endless public sector waste that we see all around us.

I also agree largely with your doom laden predictions of more to come. I certainly think that the markets haven't unwound fully yet and there is still a lot of toxic crap in the pipeline still to come out.

I;m trying to counter this by selling up over the summer and moving out of the UK but am concerned that I won't get out in time.

Could you expand more on what you see coming?

Moraymint

March 18th, 2010 3:05pm Report this comment

DangerDave
March 18th, 2010 12:54pm

"Could you expand more on what you see coming"

At heart, I think what will emerge after the election is the extent to which our government and the whole of our political class will be unable to deliver the scale of cuts needed in state expenditure, at the speed required, without social unrest and/or the unwillingness of the bond markets to fund the UK's national debt at anything other than punitive rates.

Simultaneously, deleveraging (paying down debt) will be foist into every corner of our economy by banks unwilling/unable to lend - to credit card holders, to mortgage applicants, to businesses looking for working capital. The banks are basket cases and are desperately fighting for their own survival; lending is the last thing on their collective minds. Those banks that can lend are cherry-picking and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Energy costs, especially the cost of oil, will rise quickly as developing nations grow their economies faster than we're able to grow ours. As the pound continues to fall, our (largely imported) energy costs will be hit by a double-whammy. We've reached the end of mankind's era of cheap energy; the end of the industrial age; we've started the long descent.

There's more to be said, but I think we're in the lull before a perfect storm. The government has been able to defy economic gravity thus far, through judicious use of QE, misappropriation of taxpayers' money, propaganda and outright deceit. The UK economy is structurally flawed after 13 years of unopposed Marxism - and we are simply going to have to pay for it from here on in.

The house of cards will start to collapse from May onwards and I see nothing to make me think otherwise.

Look at it another way: is anyone seriously arguing that during 2010 we shall start to feel the reassuring push of acceleration in our backs as the UK economy flips into rapid and sustainable economic growth? Only the Treasury's forecasts make these sorts of predictions - and we know who writes those, and why.

Sorry it's a bit downbeat, but I'm a realist. Tout s'arrange, mais mal, as Lord Lawson would say.

JohnAnt

March 18th, 2010 4:00pm Report this comment

Don't cut state advertising! People at the 'Guardian' could die!

JohnAnt

March 18th, 2010 4:04pm Report this comment

Not to mention those ludicrous ads for the NHS - as if it was a competitive company desperate for clients.

teledu

March 18th, 2010 5:03pm Report this comment

Moraymint, I too find myself nodding in agreement when reading your posts.
How sad though that too few (if any) of our television and newspaper reporters have challenged this government over their reckless and undemocratic policies. The cutting-edge journalism & media ridicule that the Thatcher and Major governments were subjected too doesn't seem to have materialised for New Labour and yet Brown and co. would seem perfect targets for old-style Panorama / World in Action / Spitting Image type exposure.
In a way it's a shame that when we reap what New Labour have sown (power shortages / mass job cuts / Union strikes / civil unrest etc.) those largely responsible for it will be off the scene and enjoying a fat pay-off from us taxpayers for their "services" to the country.
They should be lined up against a wall and shot.

Moraymint

March 18th, 2010 5:51pm Report this comment

teledu ... yes, your post reinforces my view that since the Labour Party started spinning their way into power 15 years ago or so, we have witnessed an Orwellian transformation of our society.

The state we're in today was planned as such under the heading of the New Labour Project. The UK's very own brand of soft totalitarianism is now embedded in our national socio-economic structure and it will be terribly difficult to undo.

The state is everywhere: government departments, local government reliance on central government funds, quangos, private sector companies feeding off the state, multi-generational welfare claimants, government agencies, the bias of the BBC, students studying for government-funded non-qualifications, you name it.

Weaning millions and millions of British citizens off of state dependency will take a generation. I'm not sure the Tory Party is up to it and, even if they are, we keep coming back to social unrest.

Oh, the price we're going to pay for having either embraced Marxism or having allowed ourselves to be conned into accepting it. The result will be the same.

Emily

March 18th, 2010 6:49pm Report this comment

I was hoping someone would do a bit of digging on this. We've all noticed the nanny state adverts, but my god they are so bleedin' annoying no sooner does one flash up on my screen then I me so much I have to turn the channel over I have to turn the channel pronto. So I doubt very much that they will have the effect of misleading the electorate into believing in a benign state. Their real purpose is to buy influence in the media - so that the absolute drubbing Brown should be getting from interviewers is avoided. A classic case of buying influence. ITV has even managed to turn profitable again thanks to British taxpayers.

Brown is a power mad, financially incontinent, delusional loon. I wouldn't be surprised if he pressed the nuclear button in the infernal rage that will consume him when he loses the election.

Ben Elford

March 18th, 2010 9:55pm Report this comment

My guess is that most people are noticing the weight of advertising by government agencies and quangos, and that every one they see or hear increases their resentment of an interfering and wasteful government, and their urgency in wanting to get rid of it.

Labour's propaganda isn't working, either.

Nicholas

March 18th, 2010 10:33pm Report this comment

Dorothy - sorry to disagree with you in two threads (although the other one was decidely tongue in cheek) but I do think that HM the Queen, for whatever reasons, has allowed the Monarchy to have its role marginalised and negated by the forces of socialism. And I say that as a fervent monarchist. I think her sense of duty and perhaps an unwarranted trust in her politicians has led to her conceding too much over the years.

DangerDave

March 18th, 2010 10:34pm Report this comment

@Moraymint

Thank you for taking the time to expand on your thoughts.

I hope for selfish reasons that you are wrong about the timings and that I can get out in time.

Certainly the government is delaying the inevitable, £200bn in QE this year pumped straight into government spending, and the largely unreported £4bn budget deficit in January (why this wasn't screamed from the rooftops I have no idea) It's just sad that the British people don't see the charade around them they are living in.

Thanks again Moraymint. Good luck with your business and the future.

2trueblue

March 19th, 2010 12:24am Report this comment

Moraymint, you are so right. Look at what is happening with the commercial debt unwinding right now and not just here but accross the world. The signs that were first experienced in late 2006 and early 2007 showed up in the commercial property area and suddenly by June 2007 it was a runaway train.
It is all starting again and unfortunately you are so right.

michael

March 19th, 2010 9:23am Report this comment

How long before these comments are regarded as dissident and the anti 'download' laws will be manipulated for monitoring and censorship?

MrC

March 20th, 2010 10:46am Report this comment

The Labour party is effectively bankrupt, this is simply their way of bolstering their election campaign. Also, and perhaps more worrying it is also a way of buying influence. Listening to Talksport and LBC from time to time I would estimate that around 70% of their ad revenue comes from Government ads. If that much of your revenue came from one place I am sure that people would be very careful about being overly critical of Government policy, give Labour ministers an easy ride in interviews, ease up on the Unite Story and bang on about the AShcroft one I could go on. What makes this worse is that the Conservatives should be banging on about this in PMQs, asking difficult questions. However, perhaps the most important thing they should be doing is taking the BBC on, have they got the guts?

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