The Tories still want to repeal the hunting ban

Blofeld's Cat

Completely OT, but this has been bothering me.

Much has been made of NI being a tax on business, but surely the public sector employers' contribution will merely inflate the cost of the public sector, without any change in the productivity - and it's paid for by the taxpayer. Back of the envelope calculations suggest to me that the NHS, for example, will need to find 450 million just to service a 1% increase in NI.

Better to tax us on what we spend - our choice - than what we earn.

john Woolman

And, pretty please, the Human Tissue Act and the Coroners & Justice Act second and third of the long list of legislation to unravel.

George Laird

Dear All

I think there is something wrong with people who want to get dressed up and spend thousands of pounds to be involved in cruelty.

There is nothing humane in ripping an animal to pieces with dogs.

So, if the fox was replaced by another animal would there be outrage?

If it was a sheep, a cow or a goat, we would all hit the roof.

People would posibly be facing prison for cruelty and shunned publicly.

An argument used is the fox has a 'sporting chance' and can run away.

Is it 'sporting' that a fox is outnumbered 50 to 1?

The fox hunting ban is needed and should remain.

Instead of a free vote in Parliament, why doesn't David Cameron put it to a referendum?

Does the Bullingdon boy have the courage?

If the foxhunters are so confident what they want is right then logically they would back my call for a referendum.

Fox hunting is rich people killing for fun.

Tally ho on that.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Rhoda Klapp

Thirteen years of bad and repressive legislation, and this is the only one he identifies by name to be repealed? I don't much care about the law itself, it's widely circumvented, foxes have neither died out nor over-multiplied, I just see this as poor judgement. And pathetic.

Tim W

Do not forget that in a lot of Lib Dem/Con marginals many of the candidates from the Lib Dems, who believe in civil liberties, will actually support repeal as well meaning that regardless of a big majority or not it could still be possible.

Cameron would be an idiot to not allow a free vote in the first few years considering that many many hunts help out to deliver leaflets etc. on the basis that the ban will be removed. Do not expect any of them to help (or even vote Conservative) if Cameron doesn't live up to his promise.

I also see that the League against cruel sports has been censured by the Charity Commission.

Bruce, UK

Glad to hear that we have solved our economic crisis and brought peace to Agghanistan. Thank the Powers that be we now have even more time to waste in national government.

Hawkeye

I do not suppose that the tories will pass a special bill invalidating all laws passed since May 97.

It would save a lot of time and effort if they did.

david1

Scrapping the hunting ban may please the Tory base, but it will dismay everyone else.

Scrapping the ban will act as a catalyst and motivate a mass of anti-Tory feeling.
Marches led by luvvies and clelebs, as big as the Countryside Alliance march would ensue. Video clips of foxes and other small furry animals being torn apart would be posted on the internet.

Dave and his pals would be portrayed as cruel and heartless murderers of defencless animals.

May not be a good move.

Anya

LACS Ltd (in trouble recently for having charity status, yet being openly political) has but a passing acquaintance with veracity, unfortunately. They have, in the past, been known to pass off old, carrion-despoiled carcases as hound kill. As far as I know the Hunting Act is the first (hopefully of many) unworkable useless piece of Labour legislation to be offered up for repeal. Pro-hunting Conservative supporters should be aware which candidates do not support removing this dog's breakfast of an Act. It cannot be of any welfare benefit to have shooting, gassing, poisoning and trapping as the preferred means of pest control. Even the Burns Report acknowledged that these methods were not without cruelty.

chris as usual

@George Laird
When the election is over let's have a sensible conversation about this, if you want to.
It's a free vote. That's what the policy is, not to repeal hunting whatever.

Lord Boyders

I'm with Hakeye!

Lizzy

I'm with George Laird on this (and I'm of Tory inclination). I live in the country, have lost a few chickens to an old dog fox who wonders around but just learnt to lock them up better.My dogs and cats catch rabbits and rats. I am quite aware of how things are close to nature.
I have no problem with sharp eyed shooters potting pigeon etc etc. However, the notion of men and women on horseback dressed from a couple of centuries ago hunting with a pack of dogs to rip a wild animal to pieces is just plain cruel.
It's on a par with those who dig up badgers and belongs to yesterday. I will be dismayed if Cameron does bring it back (even though I know it's a shoddy, class based law).

david1

There are these people of course, they won't be pleased.

http://www.conservativesagainstfoxhunting.com/

teledu

George Laird asks:-
"Is it 'sporting' that a fox is outnumbered 50 to 1?"
So all 50 hounds catch up with the fox at the same time do they?
Get real George. The gun or gas canister cannot differentiate between an old, manky fox and a young healthy one. The chase by hounds weeds out the former, who will endure a less painful end when caught by a hound than by other methods - think about it. Not too many people bother too, hence comments like yours.

Any Colour but Brown

"George Laird
I suggest that you speak to a chicken farmer or two. They don't care how foxes die, just as long as they die.

Foxes are vicious vermin. They kill, but don't eat - would you not class that as the fox's idea of sport?

dexey

If I vote tory and they repeal the hunting ban I will join the hunt sabs. Our local hunt has converted to following a dragged trail and membership has mushroomed because more youngsters are now following the hounds.

Michael

As a vegan member of several animal rights groups I am fully in favour of repealing the ban on fox hunting. As anyone who has ever kept animals will know only too well foxes as a species are vicious and evil murderers. Each one of them taken out is anywhere from a dozen to a hundred gentle pets and farm animals saved a terrifying and excrutiating death. Kindness to animals is on the side of the hunters here.

Michael

"However, the notion of men and women on horseback dressed from a couple of centuries ago...even though I know it's a shoddy, class based law"

Yes it is a shoddy class based law, which you just gave away as the true reason for your support of it.

Chris C

It's absolutely not true that only the manky old foxes are caught. Foxes are encouraged to breed in hunting areas by making artificial earths so that cubs are produced. These are used by the hunters during the 'cub hunting' season in the autumn to teach the young hounds how to smell out and rip a fox to pieces.

George Laird

Dear All

Have you ever noticed that my postings attract a lot of comment?

Just back to the Spectator after a lengthy absence and it was like I never left.

Any colour but Brown quips;

“I suggest that you speak to a chicken farmer or two. They don't care how foxes die, just as long as they die. Foxes are vicious vermin. They kill, but don't eat - would you not class that as the fox's idea of sport?”

Don’t cats kill mice and birds?

But we feed them and keep them in great numbers as pets.

Sorry, I am not buying into your point and just because chicken farmers ‘don’t care how foxes die’ it don’t justify cruelty.

Teledu says;

“So all 50 hounds catch up with the fox at the same time do they?”

My questions to you, do they hunt in a pack?

Is there a gentleman’s agreement among the pack that is in one on one?

As to your concern that the gun or gas canister cannot differentiate between an old, manky fox and a young healthy one”, I don’t think this sudden concern for young healthy foxes will wash, I see it as nonsense.

Because neither can a pack of hounds.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Dirty Euro

I had a great day today smashing a dog to bits with a pick axe. Me and the lads thought it was fun.
Vote tory for more of this entertainment.
Freedom Roars.

TGF UKIP

George Laird and the rest are simply wrong. The anti-hunting ban is simply the legalized persecution of a minority by the majority who choose not to have any understanding for the minority viewpoint.

I live in the country, hunting country, but I am not a countryman - and therein lies a huge difference. For most of my life I have been against hunting using all the familiar vocabulary of a town boy - barbaric, inhumane etc and it wasn't until I had a conversation on the matter with a retired farmworker who lived in the village and was and had been for all of his life a hunt follower, that I began to re-form my view.

His view and the view of the local farmers was that foxes are nowt but pests and vermin and particularly vicious ones at that and that hunting them is part of the natural order of things in the countryside. It's the same as ferreting, it's what countrymen do and have always done for centuries and what they will continue to do regardless of any bunch of townies trying to censure or stop them.

I well remember the view of Ben Gill, then President of the NFU, when being asked about hunting on R4 and his answer was along the following lines "Well" he said "when you've heard the screams of one animal being killed by another animal in the middle of the night, you tend to have a different take on these matters."

As men we are but another of God's animals and for some among us it is entirely in the natural order of things to hunt foxes and those people should not be censured nor criminalized because their view is not shared or understood by the town living majority.

Ron Todd

If gangs of yobs on motorbikes with pit bulls chased urban foxes through our streets the Tories would condem them.

There is no difference except the yobs do not vote Tory.

Fearless Frank

As foxes seem to be more common in towns today, maybe this would be an opportunity to introduce "urban hunting".
It's a bold concept that has the merits of crossing all social divides and appeals to all parts of the political spectrum.
Horses might prove a bit impractical in town - except for mounted police, perhaps, which would certainly strengthen community relations.
Instead, the hunt would ride on skateboards - street cred with the youth; bicycles - eco friendly, so sure to win Green support; roller blades for cutting edge urban warriors; permitted weapons to include knives, bringing in inner-city stabbing enthusiasts who fancy a spot fox-shanking, for a change.
And as for hounds - well, let's see what all those staffies and weapon dogs are made of!
And it would bring spectator sport to the doorsteps of all those too obese to take part.
A thoroughly inclusive event, fit for the 21st century.

Ron Todd

And for chicken farmers most of the chickens are in huge animal rights protestor proof sheds. Little chance of a fox getting in.

A bit of freedom in the sun with a small chance of being taken by a fox, or the poultry equivalent of the black hole?

Robert Williams

Labour & the BBC are relying on Cameron sticking with the hunting set.

Charlie Whelan tweets "Nicky Campbell on plane with me back to Highlands. Very pleased with his interview with Cam exposing the Tory leaders love of fox hunting"

http://twitter.com/charliewhelan/statuses/11424169989

annassasin

I wonder what the RSPCA think, as they are the main suppliers of foxes to the hunt. Town foxes are removed and dumped in the countryside in their hundereds. If it wasn't for the RSPCA the hunts would have to farm foxes.
I have lived on a farm all my life and don't give a hoot either way.
ps.
In a couple of years, the next tranche of animal diseases heading this way, are horse based. Some incredibly dangerous to humans (AIDS). So you can imagine the effect on hunting.

Paul B

I agree with the wise words of TGF. I would add that hunting is actually good for the fox population as it culls out the unhealthy and lame. The strong survive, which is the Darwinian way. To deny hunting, is to deny the very essence of nature.

George Laird

Dear TGF UKIP

“George Laird and the rest are simply wrong”.

For opposing what was legalised cruelty?

“The anti-hunting ban is simply the legalized persecution of a minority by the majority who choose not to have any understanding for the minority viewpoint”.

That is nonsense, what exactly is there to understand about a bunch of rich people getting their jollies following a pack of hounds whose sole objective is to rip an animal to pieces?

“I live in the country, hunting country, but I am not a countryman - and therein lies a huge difference. For most of my life I have been against hunting using all the familiar vocabulary of a town boy - barbaric, inhumane etc and it wasn't until I had a conversation on the matter with a retired farmworker who lived in the village and was and had been for all of his life a hunt follower, that I began to re-form my view”.

So, just because you had a chat with some old boy with warped views; he managed to turn you away from your humanity, easily swayed or what!

“His view and the view of the local farmers was that foxes are nowt but pests and vermin and particularly vicious ones at that and that hunting them is part of the natural order of things in the countryside”.

It isn’t the natural order to hunt an animal with a pack of hounds. Foxhunting was a 16th century invention so lets not get away from ourselves here.

“It's the same as ferreting, it's what countrymen do and have always done for centuries and what they will continue to do regardless of any bunch of townies trying to censure or stop them”.

“It’s what countrymen do”??????

We used to burn people for witchcraft in this country, ‘it’s what countrymen do, then came the enlightenment and it was stopped, despite the loons in society objecting.

“I well remember the view of Ben Gill, then President of the NFU, when being asked about hunting on R4 and his answer was along the following lines "Well" he said "when you've heard the screams of one animal being killed by another animal in the middle of the night, you tend to have a different take on these matters."

Or one animal deliberately killed by 50 hounds for the benefit of other people’s fun!

“As men we are but another of God's animals and for some among us it is entirely in the natural order of things to hunt foxes and those people should not be censured nor criminalized because their view is not shared or understood by the town living majority”.

Well as one of God’s creatures, I say no.

Finally, they say if you enjoying using cruelty on animals for fun then you have the potential to evolve the same mindset with regard to people.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Rhoda Klapp

But judged as a tactic, as an election strategy, it is plainly daft to pick this one. It is only a vote loser. Why not select one of a hundred daft laws Labour has brought in which is not so polarising as this? Crazy. Worse, a mistake.

However, to see that most of the commenters here see this post as an opportunity to go over the whole stupid debate again is pretty sad too.

Lizzy

Just to clarify to the gentleman who seems to think my objection to fox hunting is class based nonsense. I object to it simply because I believe it to be cruel.
I know they are killers. So are my dogs and cats but they have no choice in the matter - they are animals. It is we humans who have freedom of choice.
I know many who hunt(including my cousin) and far from being toffs of hossback they are a mixed lot from council house dwellers to company directors.
And there are indeed foxes being dumped here in the countryside. I live on the Essex/Suffolk border. White vans turn up on a regular basis and let captured foxes loose. I believe they are urban foxes, which in itself is cruel as they will be ill equipped to deal with a different environment.
This is the 21st century. I really can't believe there isn't some science based and humane way to control the fox population than 17th century ritual slaughter.

Andre

I will vote Tory only on the basis of the repeal of the Hunting Ban - I can see little difference between Cameron and Brown on questions of EU, Islam, immigration etc. I hunt on foot - have done for years and do not wear a red coat but a rain proof jacket and track suit. For me the real joy is the thrill of the chase careering over open country - you do not know where the fox will run or how long the hounds will be able to follow him. Almost all foxes I have seen hunted manage to get clean away - suits me fine - so a ban was never about blood but simply a socialist bid to dish the toffs. Sad fact is most hunters are working types like me, gamekeepers, teachers, business people, tenant farmers, bar room boys and pony club girls. With another bloke I now act as a trail layer for the local hunt - a fiction may be but the courts have to prove our intent to kill a fox. I never intended to any way - and shoo away any I see. The ban has done nothing but good attracting more people to the sport and swelling our coffers. However it needs to be repealed to prove the point that the majority do not have the right to tyrannize a minority Most important of all in a sanitized world it represents real fun, real risk and real sport. There is nothing cruel about hunting - George Laird should get his facts right. What about our human rights? What about our right to indulge in a socio-ethnographic phenomena that survives in the woods and fields since Celtic times? Far better to go hunting for fun and dissipate latent violent energy in a constructive and responsible manner than building it up inside. You have lost the argument George, have the grace to admit it and back our human rights

Paul B

As Ron Todd says, the chickens in huge battery farms are indeed safe from foxes. Many animal welfare campaigners are against such farms. I prefer a free range egg to battery farmed egg. I also believe its beholden on us a society to try to manage animals in a humane as way as possible. To that end, free range locally produced chickens and eggs farms and smallholdings are to be encouraged.

Chickens enjoying the good life though, with free run to forage, need protection against predation. The persons farming the chickens need protection against said predation, to enable them to make a profit. We -humans- are above the Fox in the food chain. If good quality chicken husbandry is to be encouraged, the hunting of foxes has to take place. Farming isn`t an idyllic Disneyfied place of calm and tranquility, its about life and death, with nature deep red in tooth. It is also very much a business. Businesses need to protects their assets from intruders and the fox is an intruder. Hunting is the most efficient method of control of the fox. It also brings lots of enjoyment to those who partake. It provides jobs, money to farmers and landowners who permit the hunt to ride their lands and is an essential part of rural eco structure. I find those who are against it, to be feeble minded, woolly and effete in their thinking.

Ron Todd

Just because you are not very good at fox hunting does not make it right.

I am not very good at mugging people they get away most times so thats ok then.

When we banned bear baiting was that the majority imposing their will on a minority?

When the Victorians tried to stop child prostitution was that a majority imposing their will on a minority.

It is wrong to argue that everything a minority wants to do must be allowed.

Is it true that most who are cruel to people start by being cruel to animals?

If you do not manage to do it very well is a reason fro trying other methods.

Michael Booth

Cameron would have been better pledging the Tories to restoring Liberty in this country. There are plenty of other pieces of shoddy, ZanuLabour legislation that need consigning to the dustbin of history. We need a government that shows it trusts the people and not one that spies on them and taxes them into submission and state dependency.

toni

@Lizzy. “White vans turn up on a regular basis and let captured foxes loose”
Apocryphal, unless of course you'll be the first to produce photographic evidence?

Florence Nightingale

Halal Butchery is designed to cause the maximum amount of pain to the animal being slaughtered but I don't hear an outcry about that. Which leads me to believe that the ban is aimed at annoying the gentlemen in red coats rather than protecting the fox!
Does anyone believe that the hunting ban would have gone ahead if it had been an ethnic minority sport?

Chris Curran

There is so much dishonesty spouted by the pros - the whole fox hunting business needs exposing for what it really is. It IS extremely cruel - read the IFAW's 2008 review of the Hunting Act.Furthermore it's absolute rubbish that it controls foxes. The number of foxes killed in this way is only 4 or 5% of total deaths. Hunting with hounds is a fun entertainment and a major part of the pros' social life. If foxes are vermin and need controlling, why are they encouraged to breed in hunting areas by building artificial earths? If the houndsman loves his dogs so much,why does he shoot them when they are no good for hunting - no matter if they are young and healthy? Why are they not re-homed? Why are hounds trained to the scent of fox when common sense says they should be trained to other scents to avoid socalled 'accidental' killing of foxes. Post mortems and videos have shown very clearly that dogs do not kill the fox with a single bite to the back of the neck - they are ripped apart while fully conscious. If this was to happen to domestic pets, there would be an outcry. Hunting with hounds is a vile and despicably cruel bloodsport and rather than repeal the Act, Cameron should, as a decent human being, tighten up all the loopholes and exemptions.
I am appalled that this man who believes he is fit to be PM of this country is so irresponsible and dishonest, and behaving unbelievably undemocratically. He is fully aware that 75% of the electorate want hunting with dogs committed to the history books. Numerous people have written to him personally about this issue and he hasn't even got the good manners to answer the letters. One wonders why he is so desperate to repeal the ban?

toni

Quite right Chris Curran.
He’s desperate to repeal the ban because the hunting fraternity is determined to pursue live quarry as there’s just not enough bloody personal fulfillment and thrill to be had in a laid trail, and he has to reward them for all the money they’ve donated and work they’ve done for the party, and in fact on ConservativeHome there have been comments to the effect that he ‘owes’ them.

Labour deserve a good kicking for their latest poster, they should have depicted Cameron in his hunting outfit; every picture tells a story, and that’s his.

Paul B

Hunting is not cruel. It is natural. Hunting happens all over the natural world. If hunting is cruel, all predators are cruel. Its a nonsense that hunting is cruel. A fox dies by the lead hound picking it up and shaking it. Watch your domesticated dog play with soft toys.It shakes them. This is how a fox dies.

Hounds are not a domesticated breed, there is nothing house trained about a foxhound. To rehouse them after their useful life would be cruel. In fact it can be argued , that the mere keeping of any form of domesticated animal in houses, espically central heated houses, is in itself and act of cruelty. To judge cruelty in animal terms,as one would judge human on human terms, is a by emotion rather than by fact.

Fox are not vermin, no animals are vermin. They have their place in food chain, just like any creature. They have multipled over the last centuries by the introduction of the rabbit and by our keeping of gamebirds and othe livestock. A fox does what it does by instinct and nature. Foxhunting is a human instinct and a natural one.

Road killed foxes account for more deaths than hunts. However hunts do kill by Darwinian selection and as such serve a purpose and are called in by the landowner when there is a problem. Otherwise, foxes have no predator.

Chris Curran

Your arrogance is astounding - the IFAW review on hunting was conducted by qualified professors, not ignorant amateurs. A fox does not die by the lead hound picking it up and shaking it - that's a complete nonsense. The first hound will go for the back legs of the fox to bring it down. It is not shaken but once downed, is landed on by as many hounds as can find a hold on it. The fully conscious fox is then subjected to being used as a tug-of-war rope while each hound tries to get a mouthful. Hounds go out to the field hungry and are in a frenzy when they bring a fox down. There is no comparison whatsoever between a pet dog playing with a small soft toy and a pack of hounds desperate to get a mouthful of fox.

As for comparing human hunters with animal predators - that's a nonsense too.Animal predators hunt to survive and by instinct, humans deliberately hunt purely for fun.

Andre

You are not answering the central question. Why should antis be allowed to impose their views on hunters? Whatever happened to minority rights in this country? If you don't like hunting don't hunt - don't eat meat either for that is far more cruelly slaughtered. Leave us alone! Leave Kosher and halal butchers alone. Leave gays and Morris dancers alone. Get out of our lives and the world will be a happier more balanced place. Vermin control is going to happen anyway, grow up and get used to it. What is cruel is the bludgeoning imposition of one man's view upon another. I don't care for soccer but I wouldn't ban it. I just don't bother playing it. It's a silly sport run by toffs and the sexually incontinent - but so what, it is nothing to do with me. Please let us roll back the tyranny of the left - I think that is what Cameron is trying to articulate in his Big Society thing.

Chris Curran

So we must always let everybody do exactly what they want to do regardless of the cruelty or extreme distress caused to humans or animals, should we Andre? So we'll send little boys up chimneys to clean them; let adults beat them if they don't do as they want them to; send them down the mines before they get too big; bring back cock-fighting; bear and badger baiting; abolish all the animal welfare laws and forget the current battle to prevent dog fighting, just because the minority must be allowed to do what they want to do? What garbage. Cruelty of any kind is wrong and even more so when inflicted unnecessarily on dumb animals for entertainment. There is no place for it in the modern world. We are supposed to be superior to animals - some people behave less than animals. At least animals only hunt for food not pleasure.
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated" - Mahatma Gandhi.

Anna Allen

I looked through Conservative's manifesto regarding Environment. There is no single mention of land animals as if we lived in the world where they don't exist. One wonders what this means.

Mr Nigel

Chris –You missed Andre`s point, so here it is again “vermin control is going to happen anyway”

So its not if we kill foxes but how. Given that the Burns inquiry found the ban would lead to an increase in other methods less welfare friendly than hunting and seven High ranking officials of the main opposition to hunting (League against cruel sports) left when they came to the exact conclusion as the Burns inquiry, I cannot see how you have a leg to stand on. Bring back hunting for foxes sake.

Jason

Yes, for the foxes sake let the hoorahs rip foxes to bits...

Did I read that right?

I do not doubt that populations of certain kinds of animals must be controlled. What I have a problem with is people dressing up and enjoying it!

I'm not sure which are the greater vermin here.

jan

I think that fox hunting is cruel. They are almost torn apart by the hounds. The hounds are not dangerous dogs though because it is 'sport' yes, a 'sport' like dog fighting, and because of some useless evil yobs arranging dog fighting, a pit bull is banned even though it doesnt want to fight, a hound isnt banned for killing the fox though , conveniently we want to get rid of the foxes, and its upper class, so the government will repeal the fox hunting ban but NOT the pit bull ban, I wonder why !!!!