Clegg sets Cameron a trap over the EU

Peter From Maidstone

Why is it a treacherous hurdle? Surely we do need to know what the Conservative policy on Europe is? If the Conservatives don't actually know what they want then it is no one's fault but their own if they appear confused.

Why would any Conservatives ever vote LibDem. They are a committed socialist party.

If Cameron actually has a genuine policy on Europe then he needs to share it forcefully, and expose the disingenuousness of the LibDems.

Rhoda Klapp

They should make Clegg make that a cast iron promise. That should do it.

When it comes to the EU, they all have lied and cheated to avoid any sort of referendum. All three of them. There is no trust left.

Ron Todd

Cameron should never have gone back on his promise of a referendum. It made him look as unreliable as the other leaders.

Glegg would never have the referendum he knows there is a high chance that he would lose.

If the moderator allows Cameron should try to get a mention of the Falklands in. Blair lied to us to go to war for the Americans yet only a few years later Brown has so anoyed them that they will not back us over the islands.

DaveL

Maybe Cameron will steal his thunder and promise a referendum of his own? Am I dreaming?

The strongest issue that sways my vote is a referendum on our EU position. I will be voting UKIP, but I'd dearly love the LibDems to offer this referendum. I'd consider them a much stronger party because of it.

DaveL

Although Dan Hannan has some interesting things to comment:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100035831/the-lib-dems-have-not-promised-an-inout-referendum/

Publius

Easy for Cameron to outflank Clegg on this. Just call his bluff and say,'Yes, OK,' etc.

Vulture

No question : Dave will have to match Clegg's clever move. And so he bloody well should!

Mind you, he's such a klutz he probably won't.

If he did Bruin would be exposed as the odd man out - the one who signed up to Lisbon and broke his promise to the British people to let them decide whether they wanted to remain free or become a Euroland province.

Neil Turner

In a rapidly changing environment, there is a vital need to evolve or die.

Whilst we all recognise how vital the economy is (logical), many of us feel betrayed over the sell-out of British democracy to the EU (emotional)

David Cameron underestimates this feeling at his peril. He needs to evolve quickly or die

James

This really should be an easy hurdle for Cameron to jump and win!

Most people in this country are Euro-sceptic, but do not want to leave the EU.

An in-out referendum is basically an unsophisticated, blunt choice that leaves out the most popular option of repatriating powers but staying in.

Furthermore it is offered by a man who withdrew his commitment to a Lisbon referendum even before the treaty was ratified.

Cameron should be able to make a lot of hay here. But we will see.

Publius

I note also that Clegg is not promising a referendum on whether to accept any future changes, but an all-or-nothing in/out referendum. So is Clegg saying that he'd force through another Lisbon Treaty without a referendum, without letting the British people have a say?

Richard of York

Happy days
Cameron will have to choke back the tears tonight.
In or Out...simple question which Cameron will never ask the people....Brown would go for the idea just to leave a time bomb for Sham man.
toodle pip

TheE17Tory

Cameron should respond by quickly dismissing Clegg's pledge as a lie and then get aggressively on the offensive by asking 'will the Lib Dems take us into the Euro?' and keep repeating and insist on an answer - Clegg will have to fudge it and then he looks like the disingenuous one and he cant ask the same question back because the Tory position on the Euro is absolutely clear

Publius

Actually Dan Hannan gets it right on this. (Just read his comment.) Bloody Libdem shysters. So much for Mr Clean-Clegg.

Robert Upfold

Moderate supporters of EU membership who want continued UK economic participation in Europe but resist further political integration in the fedeal state would be obliged to vote to stay in, thus achieving the aim of Clegg to destroy our negotiating power with the union.

The choice is not between in or out but between a united UK cooperating to work to the advantage of the UK as a whole.

An in-out referendum would further divide the nations of Britain and weaken the power of any future PM to influence events.

Besides, as we all have seen with Ireland and other countries an 'out' vote would be shortly followed by further referendums until the 'right' decision is reached.

In the event of any future refendum it should probably be better to ask the question of whether the terms and conditions of membership should be renegotiated and whether we should seek opt-outs - over immigration and labour laws for example.

Be sure also Clegg would skew the question in such a way as to get a vote on entry into the Euro.

Soooo...all you new Cleggies wherever you lie take care who you vote for or else say goodbye to your rights and your freedom and then you will cry.

Ghengis

What is of PRIME importance is, that we all are made aware of whether the electorate want to remain in the EU. NOT THE POLITICIANS.

Michael

The most important thing in our relationship with the EU is to retake control of our own borders and legal system.

MagicAldo

ONE MILLION UKIP VOTERS! Deliberately alienated by Mr Cameron. A winning strategy?

Yosemite Sam

I cannot for the life of me see why Cameron should not offer an in/out referendum. He does not have to campaign in favour of leaving the EU. But he demonstrates that,on this issue, he would be listen to the people. Furthermore, it would lance the boil of Europe for a generation both within the party and more widely. Lets be very frank. The chance of a vote to leave is remote despite what UKIP supporters feel. But if that were the outcome, then a negotiated move to a free-trade arrangement could be done in good faith and with the strength of the referendum result behind us. However, Cameron should not let Clegg mix this issue up with the separate issue of approval, by referendum, of specific new treaties, or amendments thereto. This is already Tory policy. Whilst on the question of referenda, why cannot he offer a referendum on PR? Again, he does not have to campaign in favour. But if FPTP has so many advantages (which it does) let him have the courage to argue the case.

steve

Looks like the current media attack has just be blown out of the water.

It's all #nickcleggsfault

Loving every minute of this campaign. The old systems just don't work any more do they !

JohnW

Why would the EU draw up another treaty that would alter the British constitution? The Lisbon Treaty is self amending and thus they will never need draw up another treaty.

So Nick Cleggs offer of a referendum is no offer at all.

Paul Hawkins

Dick of the North,

Has it not escaped your attention that both Brown and Clegg voted for the treaty in Parliament? Any 'offer' they make is therefore utterly pointless,as it is an offer they have already decided not to make,despite manifesto commitments to do so. This highlights Clegg as a liar and Brown also if he is dumb enough to play the game.I think both should tread carefully as this cunning plan could backfire.

I guess you can rationalise it by omitting the bits which don't fit your view of the world-the trouble is when 98% of what is being discussed does not fit, your comments resemble gibberish.

I see your desperation growing daily.

stabledoor

Clegg is putting forward a false dichotomy. It isn't as simple as in or out and the Tories are right not to be so simplistic. Clegg scuppered the Lisbon treaty referendum by adding an in/out amendment. Having said that it might not so easy to counter in the Britains Got X Factor Politics game show episode tonight. Are people really stupid enough to vote Lib Dem in large numbers - I dispair of the British Public

Paul B

Richard of York, quick tip. Brown doesn`t matter any longer. He`s an irrelevance.No one is listening to him. "Pardon, whats that he dribbled" At best he`s fish and chip paper. For me (& many others) he`s the loo paper in my outside bog.

RKing

It is not a question of "In or Out" its more of "Full political integration or the UK deciding it's own political future and clawing back some of it powers plus the EU remaining a trading institution"

This, I believe, is what Cameron has argued all along since Brown renegaded on the referendum and should have no question answering it.

And if you choose to listen to what Cameron actually promised at the time it was that HE would call for a referendum at the time. Brown couldn't even decide whether to call an election or not. So Richard smarty pants it's your beloved leader who did all the ducking and indecision and got us into this mess. There was and is NO WAY Cameron can go back on the REFUSAL of BROWN NOT to allow for a referendum.

stabledoor

From Dan Hannan

There is something eerie about the Lib Dem leader presenting himself as anti-Establishment when he is a product and champion of the smuggest, tightest and most powerful Establishment on the planet: the Eurocracy

Colin

Neil Turner @09:42 "In a rapidly changing environment, there is a vital need to evolve or die."

Spot on!

The question is: Can the people who are currently (badly) advising Cameron, see this and act, in time?

I'm afraid that the theoretical subtleties of Conservative policy development have gone right over the heads of most people - including, it seems, erstwhile natural Conservative supporters.

Could we have a simpler message, please. Oh, and if possible, one which sets the Tories apart from the Lib/Lab/La La Land/Looby Lou consensus...

Thanks.

GDT

just ask clegg, if he holds the balance of power, will he push for an immediate referendum on in or out of the EU. Because that is not what is on offer. He is saying before he sells us further up the river he'd have the decency to ask. Pity he didn't adopt the same approach on the lisbon treaty!!!! Lib Dem = flip flop, say what ever is populist.

2trueblue

Clegg must think that we are all stupid, HE and his party helped Liebore to push through The Lisbon Treaty, which was the real chance, if it had not gone through for all of Europe to take a closer look at what we were being pushed into . 'NO' in Ireland, 'No'in France and did it make any difference?? Ireland had to vote again. This is not a democracratic union so it is Dishonest of Clegg to say at this point that he would offer us a choice. He did not stand by us when he had the opportunity, and now he is flying high he thinks that we share the sme moral groung?

Clegg should beware and I turely hope that it backfires. He is dishonest about it. He himself thinks that the EU is great and this should be publicised. If it is a trap, then Cameron will see it. The more pone sees of Clegg the less one needs to see.
Cameron could win here big time as he knows we all want a bit more clarification on how we go forward. I would not trust Clegg as he already has made his move and aligned himself with Liebore. What can he really offer? He has made the choice for us. Liebore have not honoured their referendum and are certainly not to be trusted. He is a European First and British second.

Both Liebore and Lib Dem had it within their power and they denied us.

No matter what old Cleggie says I can not trust him.

mike

Cleggy has nowt to lose daft lads, he can promise you the world, only time he has to deliver is when he's your next PM. When you're a PM you can do whatever you want,
just ask Gordon.

Dorothy Wilson

"For all his wide-eyed innocence, Clegg’s a cunning knave."

For all his wide-eyed innocence, Clegg is a nasty piece of work.

alexsandr

I voted in the original referendum on 5th June 1975. I thought we were being asked if we wanted to be in a trade club, nothing more. No mention of single european acts, presidents or single currencies.
The EU has changed out of all recognition since then, and we need to be asked how we want to interact with the EU. Not a yes/no but a multi choice. there needs to be a 'thus far and no further' option
Mebbe todays politicians should read this
http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm#front and consider the broken promisees.

Anna

I'm not sure why this is such a trap. The LibDem manifesto says
"The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote
on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain
committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs
up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU."

That leaves a great deal of wriggle room to maintain that any further treaty doesn't represent a 'fundamental change'. Isn't that what we were told about the Lisbon Treaty? And wouldn't LibDems in reality do anything they could to scupper a referendum they'd probably lose? They certainly did it last time.

Dan Hannan's post gives plenty of ammunition if Nick Clegg were to pull that scam:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100035831/the-lib-dems-have-not-promised-an-inout-referendum/

Keith McBurney

Suggest the Referendum would not be a problem if the questions covered all practicable relations we might prefer with the EU, namely:

In or Out?
If "in", an incorporating/federal, or non-incorporating/confederal association?
If "out", semi-detached (as Norway or Sitzerland), or fully detached?

Ditto relationships within our Union here, even though the answers to the questions might be different.

Ian Walker

Robert Upfold - there's nothing to stop Britain withdrawing from the EU and setting up a trade deal with it - we're a net customer, and in a recession, the customer is king.

Sure, the French especially would be miffed at our withdrawal, but are they going to stop trading with us? They can't afford to.

And freed from the stupidty of the CAP, ECHR, ECoJ and WTD our fishermen and farmers could go back to being the ultra-competitive agri-business that they used to be.

Cuffleyburgers

If Clegg were to be so ill-advised as to try this he leaves an open goal for Cameron to underline the disgraceful treasonous performance of both the other parties over Lisbon.

All cameron need say is that he too is in fvaour of staying in, but that thecurrent government withthe connivance of the LDs have contrived to achieve the worst of all worlds.

In this as on the economy, Brown's legacy is radioactive.

It would also give a chance thoroughly to expose this myth of clegg being anything other than a slimy career eurocrat and politico, whose integrity has been thrown into question on various issues including Europe, his past and his expenses.

But this doesn't look like a terribly clever trap to me.

Stand by for a major Clegg bubble burst

Salopian

David Blackburn's analyses are not usually flawed but on this one he's absolutely off the mark.

The ONLY party which really wants an IN/OUT vote on the EU is UKIP. Given that this is UKIP's only significant policy a Clegg promise of an EU vote will emasculate UKIP.

The Tory vote will be largely unaffected - Tory EU-sceptics who might have voted UKIP vote LibDem instead of UKIP. So the only significant danger is in those constituencies where LDs are running a close second to Tory.

But Blackburn is right. Clegg has to firm up his stance on Europe.

1 Clegg's long term aim is the Euro. Cameron has to press the point that it's not a matter of "when the time is right" The time will never be right for the Biritish Economy. Indeed he could reasonably ask whether France and Germany would have been so keen had they known what would happen a few years down the road

2 Cameron has to promise a Bill which will commit Parliament to holding a referendum on any new change in the EU constitution. It can be argued that one Parliament cannot commit a future one - but any subsequent Government would have to repeal the Act. And of course the Act could be protected by a Bill of Rights

3 Cameron has to hold to his policy on repatriation of some of the powers. It's fertile ground. He can challenge Clegg on the whether it is right that these powers should rest in the EU as distinct to the UK

Clegg is very flaky on the EU - a promiser of In/out referendum would be a massive mistake (but don't tell Clegg)

Ian C

Simple for Cameron to deal with:

Cameron: "What page in your manifesto is this pledge written?"

Clegg: "It is not but I am making this pledge in front of the nation".

Cameron: "And you expect them to believe you when you went back on your pledge to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty?..."

This is the open goal of the Lib Dems. Any defence he puts up can just be dismissed by the question 'would you trust this pledge?'

Cameron: "It is NOT in their manifesto, they have let the country down before by not holding the Labour Gov't to account, by abandoning their own previous pledge on a referendum. This is pure cynical opportunism by a party who would concede more control of Britain's future to an un-reconstructed, bureaucratic, unelected European Commission. The Tory Party will never allow that to happen."

Will J

Clegg can't be trusted on any EU promise. There's no way he'd stick to his pledge if he thought he'd lose. It's also the wrong question and he knows it, which is why he expects to win. The right question is always to ask about each treaty, as the Tories are pledged to, with a policy of renegotiating our membership on our terms. Although ideally we would leave, we need to be realistic about what the electorate will vote for.

Cameron must point out it's not in their manifesto, that he can't be trusted anyway, and that it's the wrong question.

Michael B

Ian C:

It's on page 67 of their manifesto.

Jean Monnet

In November, Dave said, ÒI don't want an 'in or out' referendum because I don't think 'out' is in Britain's interests.Ó

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100017498/btw-dave-thinks-the-outers-would-win-an-in-or-out-referendum/

Disillusioned

It's a meaningless, empty commitment as there won't be another treaty. That is the whole point of Lisbpn - new powers can be assumed by the Brussels machine without having to go through all the complicated business of negotiating further treaties. Can you imagine Clegg/Lib Dems accepting that further transfer of powers/ weakening of veto etc would justify holding such a referendum? Thought not. This is another example of Lib Dem posturing.

Dysgwr Cymraeg

Dream on plebs, you will never get an in/out referendum, and refernda are pointless in the EU anyway, just look at the Irish Vote on Lisbon?. Yeah right. So what can be done, wish I had the answer to these self serving traitors.

Ian C

Michael B

All the manifesto says is:
"Britain should join the euro only if that decision were supported by the people of Britain in a referendum."

This has nothing to do with the "in or out" version that many have been willing on Cameron, and Clegg opportunistically suggested on the radio yesterday, it seems.

AdamR

Only people like Gerald Warner and the other out of date anti-tory-whilst-prentending-to-be-tory clique (Hitchens, Heffer etc) would actually be stupid enough to suggest voting Lib Dem just because of one false pledge on one issue. The sheer idiocy of these people amazes me.

When the economy goes down the pan, schools fail completely, public services like the NHS break down entirely and we are left defenceless by the Lib Dems, at least Warner and his nodding dog friends in UKIP can sit there in the ashes of Britain and say, "Well boys, the countrys gone to hell, but at least we aren't being run by Brussells eh!".

The words 'cutting off the nose to spite the face' have never been more appropriate.

Robert Upfold

Ian Walker 11.07

I'm not sure that's there is 'nothing to stop' UK withdrawal from Europe.

Leaving aside legal niceties and the possibility of economic or financial reprisals from Europe, we have the problem of objections from other nations in our not quite united kingdom.

This time of economic and financial instability does not seem to me to be the best moment for a tough line on Europe, though like you I believe that Britain would in time be better off out than in.

That is one of the reasons why I want the Conservatives to have a working majority to establish whether ot not, with realative political strength, they can act with determination to retrieve legal, political and economic powers.

At least we know what Clegg is up to and it is up to the electorate to make a rational decision, or to give way to an irrational impulse to vote to cut off its collective nose to spite the face.

God save us all!

Osred

We have a permanent trade deficit with the EU. We have no say in the rules coming out of Brussels. We have to supply work and/or benefits to anyone who doesnt fancy the backwoods of Bulgaria or Slovakia etc anymore. We have to fund their kids back home. We have to rely on the honesty of their immigration and civil services as regards illegals getting into their own country. We have to accept import quotas on cheap goods when the Italians and French start squealing. We have to accept illegal unilateral action on energy issues when it suits mainland states. We have handed over our fishing to states like France and Spain, who have destroyed our stocks and now proceed to hoover up the 3rd worlds stocks under an EU flag. We have to accept completely unnecessary taxes regarding landfill that further fleece us - ditto 'green energy' taxes. We have handed back a rebate in return for no reform of the CAP.

They need us mugs far more than we need them - our ever increasing 'membership fee shows that.

Out does not mean no more trade. It means us trading with the EU and the rest of the world on terms negotiated by elected representatives not unelected eurocrats.

If it was legal to be tied tighter and tighter to Brussels without reference to the electorate, then it is certainly legal for those ties to be loosened through reference to that same electorate - even Europhiles must recognise that. Getting out means the opposite of standing alone. It means establishing properly mandated unions and relationships not those handed down by a coterie of faceless unelected mediocrities like 'our' EU Foreign Minister.

It means us taking responsibility for ourselves. I for one think we are still (just) capable of this.

seb

TheE17Tory

Of course our Westminster careerist, Clegg, is lying. He'll offer us these choices on the EU: a) his own, full integration into Eurogolia or, b), leaving or "Apocalypse!" The most popular possible option, c), a re-drawn contract with Europe, will be described by the hysterical liar, Clegg, as Neanderthal.

Ron Todd

Robert Upfold

I would not worry too much about our other nations. They will go with us or stay with Europe depending on who offers them the biggest handouts to support their socialist economies.