William Hague sets out the government's Europe policy

Rhoda Klapp

So, do we believe in 'ever closer union' or not? Simple question, yes or no will do.
(We are signed up to it, are we not?)

Hague's statements look a lot like waffle to me. A lot like waffle.

denis cooper

It will certainly gain appreciation from euro-federalists and soft-soaping surrender monkeys.

Austin Barry

"..we have equally been the foremost champions of the EU's greatest achievements - the single market and enlargement."

Sub-text: we will welcome Turkey and, ultimately, the Mahgreb into the EU.

Bet we won't be consulted though. The more things change, etc.

Sir Graphus

Actions will speak louder than words. Especially these ones.

JohnPage

And we get ... what? - for that loss of freedom and all that money.

strapworld

Never forget that Hague did nothing to stop Cameron quickly dropping his cast iron promise to hold a referendum!!

Hague prefers to be vague. A man who likes to be seen as tough but is as weak as gnats urine.

Swiss Bob

Current Government policy towards the EU appears to be total and abject surrender, even while the whole thing is burning to the ground, pitiful.

Snowman

If the EU persist in defending the Euro, as they must unless it’s dropped, they will have to move to a common fiscal policy, and an approval of member states’ budgets, leaving only monetary policy to be still gobbled up by the Brussels Commissariat. That’s but a whisker from a fully fledged federal model of Europe.

The two boys in charge here will have to address this hot chestnut, and sooner than they think, Sarkozy’s getting impatient, the bond & currency markets are barking, too. Pragmatic scepticism won’t cut it, it will be THE big decision time. What will the one who talks so well be saying to the lukewarm Tories, and more to the point, to the country? Hmmm.

Sir Graphus

Indeed Snowman; It'll involve standing up to the big boys, then potentially dissolving the coalition, going to the country, and risking being PM for only a few months. Do we think he has the courage?

Osred

"but it will garner appreciation from pragmatists at home and partners abroad"

No Kidding!! We will continue to issue ever bigger cheques. The CAP will remain unreformed (remember we gave rebates up in return for CAP reform). The accounts will remain unauditable. Brussels corruption will remain rife. Our costs will continue to ratchet up, imports will be blocked whenever it suits the Italians or French, the Interconnector will be closed whenever it suits the Continent, EU states will continue to allow illegals free passage to Dover in contravention of international law, we will continue to bound by costly CFSP and Aid commitments, we will continue to hand more financial regulation to a French and German body politic using London as a scapegoat for their own failings, we will continue to send British Citizens into custody at the behest of opaque legal proceedings contrary to international agreements on fair trials.

Pragmatists at home? Surrender Monkeys or Quislings more like.

John Shields

Calm down everyone. I think this statement sounds nothing but sensible - he can't stand up as British Foreign Secretary and start spewing out Pearsonisms. I'm no fan of the EU, but for all its inequalities and oligarchic tendencies, it does have some positives - practically speaking, we have to be in favour of the free-trade zone the EU represents; practically speaking, we have to appreciate the product regulation the EU puts in motion and environmental standards it sets. In certain areas of economic and environmental concern, the EU is the envy of the world. I'm no fan of common foreign policies or common defence, for example, and you'll never find me expounding on the supposed necessity of the EU to 'counterbalance' a feared or imagined Chinese or American political hegemony, or waving a blue flag singing Ode to Joy at the top of my voice. But there are practical considerations, and it is that pragmatic stance that we look for in our foreign policy. We're out for the benefits, but not to get our hands cuffed or our wallet pinched. Them's me sentiments.

denis cooper

@ Rhoda Klapp - I think Hague must believe in "ever closer union", because he believes that we must be in the EU, and the EU has always been based on that over-riding principle of "ever closer union" - as stated in the first line of the Treaty of Rome, re-iterated in the Maastricht Treaty, and still in the current treaties. It would be crazy, schizophrenic in fact, to believe that we must stay in an organisation while opposing the most fundamental reason for its existence. So unless Hague is actually crazy, it can only be assumed that he wants "ever closer union" and therefore he favours the extinction of his own country as an independent sovereign state. But of course he won't come out and admit that; he'll just waffle away trying to square the circle.

Hysteria

meh...

the Euro is probably going to fall apart in pretty short order. Sovereign defaults will lead to increasing tensions and the whole EU train is destined for failure as a result. The Tories don't need to say too much - just play the long game.

Y Rhyfelwr Dewr

Oh No! Here we go again! New incoming government, sets out to re-shape the EU through dialogue and cooperation: "You don't understand. Europe just wants to be loved."

In return, the EU will bite them in the ass. It's what it did to John Major and Tony Blair. It didn't really get the chance with Old Gordy, because he was so busy shooting himself in the foot all the time. But just what thanks did he get from the EU for railroading the Lisbon Treason?

And so now, it's the Tories' turn again to learn the old lesson the hard way. Just how much will we give away in our efforts to be "reasonable" and "sensible" before they wise up this time?

Still, it'll be amusing to watch the Lib Dems being royally screwed till they can't take it any longer, and turn Eurosceptic along with everybody else.

Publius

I wrote at the time that the shenanigans over the Lisbon treaty would be a high-water mark of EU superstatism, that the Eurocrats' moment of gloating triumph would be the start of their downfall.

I still think that. Indeed, recent events confirm it. The belief is gone. They're just going through the motions.

Snowman

John Shields @ 4.32:

had a shower, am totally calm, the set-up as it stands still irks. Look, united Europe made up of sovereign states, free movement of goods, services and stuff, even labour’s fine. United Europe of common institutions for the many tribes with diverse customs of doing things, run by an anointed bunch made up of mostly failed politicians from the member states, not directly accountable to those whom they reign over, I dunno.

If those pushing, for what cannot but be a federal Europe in the end, were so certain that the great unwashed are backing it, why run scared of a referendum? If the hoi polloi goes for it, fine. If not, let’ think again how we can make it work.

Our net contributions to the EU budget are expected to run at around £6.5bn for the years 2011-2013, roughly a double of the average for 1997-2007. That’s more than a couple of peanuts. That’s what we are cutting from our public spending this year, some of us will get hit. Cannot recall being asked if it’s OK. Can you?

Fergus Pickering

Lord, you're all at it again! Thirteen years out, mostly due to you, and now five minutes after we've got our feet under the mahogany you want another General Election and off into the wilderness for another thirteen years. Oliver Cromwell was faced with you lot in 17th century guise. He never solved it either. And back came the other lot.

Do you suppose Johnny Foreigner will go away just because you don't like him? I don't like the Froggie/Kraut axis either, but I can't just wish it away.

Vulture

@HYsteria is correct. Even the financial bod on the EU mouthpiece BBC's Today programme this mornig was saying the same: the Euro as we know it is doomed.

German voters will force Merkel or her successor to revert to the DM (notes already secretly printed); the Greek bailout will fail after billions of good money is chucked after bad; Sarko has already threatened to pull the rug.

What was once unthinkable (collapse of stout currency) is now inevitable.

All the Tories need to do is to stand on the sidelines and make clucking noises. Tempting though it is, they should not be seen to gloat. That would be unkind.

Jimmy Nugget

Hague can afford to be a bit vague, the EU is currently tearing itself apart, he only has to wait, suppress the grin and look statesmanlike.

denis cooper

Opening lines of the original Treaty of Rome, 1957:

"HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS ...

... HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS,

DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe ... "

From the Maastricht Treaty on European Union, 1992:

"HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS ...

... HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND,...

RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe ... "

"... By this Treaty, the High Contracting Parties establish among themselves a European Union, hereinafter called "the Union". This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe ... "

As the Tories signed us up to both of those treaties, and as the Tories insist that we must remain a party to those treaties, it's safe to assume that the Tories believe in "ever closer union" and are looking forward to the day when that process has proceeded to the point where the United Kingdom must be and is consigned to the history books.

Or, that the Tories' ignorance and stupidity is so crass they don't even know and understand what they're so determined to support.

One of the signatories of the Maastricht Treaty, Francis Maude, has now weaselled his way back into government as a Cabinet Office Minister.

Verity

I've said it for so long that people have started shouting "Shut up!" and throwing things, but Dave sees his future in the EU. It has always been his intention to get a nice comfy berth, loaded with the privileges to which he imagines, as a former Bullingdon boy, he is royally entitled.

This is why he has never said a negative word about the EU. He has equivocated and, weasel-like, qualified and soft-pedalled any faintly negative statement the electorate has forced him to make.

SD

@Y Rhyfelwr Dewr
"But just what thanks did [Gordon Brown] get from the EU for railroading the Lisbon Treason?"
Baroness Catherine (Who?) Ashton as EU Foreign Minister. A non-entity (perhaps a cruel verdict, but one which seemed to gain currency) as the second most important figure in EU, not bad payment if your idea of success is ensurung that EU non-entities should be Labour non-entities...

And so now, it's the Tories' turn again to learn the old lesson the hard way. Just how much will we give away in our efforts to be "reasonable" and "sensible" before they wise up this time?

Still, it'll be amusing to watch the Lib Dems being royally screwed till they can't take it any longer, and turn Eurosceptic along with everybody else.

Y Rhyfelwr Dewr

"EU cooperation cannot be a one-way street."

So just what will we be getting in return for our cooperation?

A repatriation of powers? Oh no, that's been quietly dropped by Cameron.

A sovereignty bill? Nope, that's somehow morphed into a mere review as to whether such a bill is necessary.

An agreement by Brussels not to seek further powers from us? No, Boy George already gave that away -- and less than a week after the election.

Suppose the EU decides to give us nothing at all in return for our cooperation -- you know, like it gave Gordon Brown nothing in return for committing political suicide over the Lisbon Treason -- what repercussions will they suffer in this two-way street?

Help me out here, somebody. In what way is this a two-way street?

paulg

Political Union is a nonsense, diverse peoples, with diverse cultures who are rational cannot be co-oped into a straight jacket without coercion.

This does not just apply to the lesser stated such as the IGPS countries.

It equally applies to the Germans - a people who have had to hand over more treasure since the E.U inception than they did under the treaty of Versaille.

Only now, are they beginning to understand that peace in Europe was not bought by them, to pay the French a people who they utterly destroyed in the war.

But was bought by the British, who sacrificed an Empire; in order to make sure that the Americans stood shoulder to shoulder on German soil, defending us all from the soviets.

Whilst the French flounced off and did what the French always do: act in their own interests.

A mind trick has been played on Europeans - and especially the Germans, only by Respecting other peoples: land, integrity, people and culture, can peace be bought.

The European Union is in its present incarnation just another evil empire.

Thucydides

Verity,

You're making things up again. There is no evidence that Cameron's strategy is to secure himself some sort of cushy Euro job.

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

You are quite right Snowman.
It is perfectly possible to be "pro-Europe" while at the same time being "anti-EU".

The political make up of many African nations is founded on tribalism and nepotism even before party political and national interests are even considered.
We delude ourselves if we think that "sophisticated" Europe should be any different.

Imagine an African Union Parliament sitting in Lagos, with a common currency imposed upon cultures as diverse as those existing in Mauritania, Somalia, South Africa and Liberia.
Recipe for chaos and corruption.
Auditors would probably not be able to close the accounts for 15 years !!!!
Imagine.

Ronnie

It would be wonderful, for some people, if the EU just dissolved one day and we didn't have to think about it. However, that's not going to happen.

At the moment the Euro is casing it's members their biggest headaches but as we are not in the Eurozone, our givernment can stand back to some extent and see what comes out the other end of this crisis. That is what Hague is sensibly doing. Real business will not resume until the financial picture is much clearer and we have our own problems at the moment.

Leaving the EU right now is not top of our list.

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

Snowman :

Concerning a referendum...
When I was in a certain West African republic in the 90s, the people were offered a referendum on the question of multi-party politics.
Due to high levels of illiteracy, symbols were used on the voting slips :
A "Yes - in favour" vote was represented by a symbol of a bunch of bananas.
A "No - against" vote was represented by a symbol of a snake.
Or was it the other way round ?
But you get the picture...

Bearing in mind falling literacy rates after the last 13 years of UK government, dare I suggest something along similar lines for any future referendum on the EU ?

Osred

Concerning a referendum ballot paper the YES symbol would probably be a pink bunny sitting on a wedge of cash and the NO box would be a litter bin.