The IDS agenda could help to end the benefits trap

Fabian Solutions

I'm leaving the Spectator blogs.

When I joined these blogs I was expecting my progressive views would get a hostile reception.

But I've always tried to discuss the issues in a sensible, rational manner.

Nothing could have prepared me for the barrage of abuse – sexist, racist, homophobic, vile, offensive hate-speech that has been poured on me by the reactionary right-wingers, Europhobes, and climate change deniers, who care more about insults than discussing policies - like Cameron at PMQs.

Over on Comment is Free most of the contributors to these blogs would not have lasted five minutes before being rightly banned.

Those who’ve abused me – you know who you are – should hang your heads in shame.

My only consolation is that most of you are probably over 60 and that my generation is overwhelmingly progressive.

But rest assured, I'll be back one day - in November, just in time to cheer a Labour comeback and new Prime Minister Miliband, Balls or Harman.

And one last warning for you right-wingers. History teaches us that capitalism's defeat is inevitable, as is the ultimate triumph of the proletariat. The Red Flag will one day triumph - despite these setbacks.

Scientific socialism will one day reach its inevitable triumph in Europe and the US – and a new world order of equality, freedom and peace will reign when capitalism, nationalism and imperialism finally die.

It waved above our infant might,
When all ahead seemed dark as night;
It witnessed many a deed and vow,
We must not change its colour now.

With heads uncovered swear we all
To bear it onward till we fall;
Come dungeons dark or gallows grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

Private Schultz

I haven't commented on your posts before, there seemed no point, but would now just like to say: Goodbye, and good riddance.

dave campbell

fabian, just waddle off then, ffs. just do it.

Rhoda Klapp

I hope it isn't only traitors who are allowed to sneer.

Andy H

Goodbye Fabian solutions.
I for one am glad that you are going. At no point have you ever tried to discuss anything, unless of course you see spouting meaningless dribble as discussion.

One day, when you finally wake up, you will realise the folly of your ways. Please don't confuse your definition of "progressive" with "progress". It is a socialist corruption of language.

So - please put me on you list of non conformists, and remember that as I am in my thirties, I may be around for some time.

Goodbye - you won't be missed.

alexsandr

Er? how off topic is this?

And Fabian still hasnt defined 'Scientific Socialism'

kevin

Bye

Such a pity you are leaving - your posts used to give me a good laugh

Chris

Ah, bless.

Left winger

Fabian Society - please get over it and smell the coffee - labour did nothing for people like me who came from the working classes - go back to islington and recount your bitterness over a quaint little dinner party...

DavidDP

Don't forget to close the door on your way out.

JGS

Fabian Solutions tells us: "I'm leaving the Spectator blogs."

Goodbye.

Dan

Stop sulking Fab!

All I said was that you were talking tripe.

Unfortunately, you still are.

Bye.

Bacon Bill

Please don't go.

Right On

Bye then.

Still not sure what "Scientific Socialism" is but I look forward to it's ultimate triumph. Sounds like fun!

GeoffH

"I'm leaving the Spectator blogs."

Thank God for that.

And take the red rag with you.

anxiouswarrior

ian duncan smith a truly evil man representing the worst you could ever find in a human being a man and a phisophy based on targetting the people at the bottom of society yes there are cheats we know that but the biggest cheats in the square mile the banks the establishment this system created by the fanatics on the right in the 1980s and early 1990s now propes to reform a system they created to hide their abject failure of policy.perhaps we could start by targetting the biggest scroungers of all the royal family and thier disgusting weealth and decadence

Streeter

FS - it's a shame that you feel that way, as "offensive hate-speech" seems to be common on most comments pages, including CiF and many other (more usually a lack of intellect is demonstrated, but offensiveness creeps in).
Nevertheless, discussions benefit from having different viewpoints. If you are serious about getting yours accross to non-Fabians, I suggest you develop a thicker skin.
And then come on back.

JAY MASON

please don't go I'll miss my daily cheer up, I have never read such deluded nonsense and it brightens up an otherwise dull day. (you may consider me a 'class traitor' as both myself and my wife work for a living). But I am so glad that Labour are out, the Tories are in and hopefully we can now start to repair the economy, even though it means I will pay more now hopefully my kids will not have too.

Stephen Bowers

Fab Stupid. Bye.

Just wondered if you have/ ever had a real job. Or are you one of Brown's half million new civil servants with nothing to do.
You certainly have plenty of time to spout your progressive socialism bullshit.

strapworld

Fabian of the yard. What utter rubbish. We live in a country where we practice free speech. That is unless it is about homosexuals, immigrants, national security and numerous other topics your labour lovies, when government, started banning by not allowing freedom of speech. Another five years of your crowd and free thought would have been banned!

Your views are ridiculous and you know it. You can now change back into Tricky Dicky of York and we can continue the abuse towards you that way.

Mr Hoskin. IDS did his research no good by threating to resign if he does not get his way. Rather petulant I thought!

Wily Trout

Bye then Fabbo.

Back on the subject, why has it taken so long for someone to make working pay more than not working? I wonder though how many of the unemployed are actually employable. You have to go every day, and when you are there you have to be useful. Sadly that doesn't come naturally to everyone.

oldtimer

Who is Fabian Solutions? Is this part of the Ed Miliband campaign for the Labour leadership?

I ask because I have been away for a few days (since the weekend) only to discover that FS is leaving already - as far as I can recall he had not even arrived at the end of last week. Have I missed something significant?

Sir Graphus

I think, Fabian, and your last post illustrates this, that you are as strident in your views as anyone who posts here. Indeed, much of what you write seems designed to provoke and antagonise the responses that you now claim shock you.

SUSAN HILL

Would you please give chapter and verse as tp exactly where you have been subjected to homophobic and racist abuse ? These comments are moderated and in general they are well mannered and polite - one or two people used to post abuse and general rudeness of tone but there was a heads-up and the posts are now remarkably good humoured even if they disagree with you. You should try the comments on newspaper sites - the Guardian and the Mail are cesspits of abuse and unpleasantness. I think you are trotting out pat phrases about what you THINK has been said to you by extreme right wingers - not many of whom are on here. We are not the BNP you know. To leave is your choice - you were never going to be happy here. But you have indeed had plenty of courteous and rational disagreement and I have not found anything along the lines of which you complain... and I read most things. So please point out who has offended in the manner you suggest and exactly where as the mods are efficient and would certainly stamp on anything of the kind you suggest.
I think you are fnding what you assumed you would find because this is the Spectator. Perhaps you should leave and do some growing up and then return to us. Informed comment/disagreement from left and from right is always welcome I know .
I also do wonder where you were for the last 13 years when the Labour government introduced all kinds of measures which would surely have been against your principles and did not, for example, close all private schools and unilaterally disarm the UK of nuclear weapons.

Murray

And another thing, just exactly what is the supposed connection, other than being a convenient rallying cry, between socialism and progression?

fabian the fabulous (no relation)

@ Fabian Solutions, May 27th, 2010 12:49pm

Pressed all the right buttons then!

Slim Jim

Good riddance, Fabian Ablutions. You can now look at your history books a bit more, and they'll put socialism into perspective for you! Tell us please where in the world there is a stable, healthy, wealthy and democratic socialist country. Eh? The left will undoubtedly regroup, but under what banner? New Labour was the biggest con-trick in political history, but whatever rock the bastards you mentioned have crawled under to lick their wounds, they will emerge again, blinking in the sunlight. We will be watching you.

denis cooper

Having read his speech, I don't see any specific, detailed, proposals on how he would end the poverty trap.

EyeSee

Fabian uses that word 'progressive' in his opening lines and I am heartily sick of hearing it. Do people really not care about the actual things they say? Progressive? What the hell does that mean? That we are making progress? Towards what? In whose opinion?

Addressing reality though (see, you already know I'm not a socialist). If you say that you are going to affect benefits by insisting that people work, then it kind of suggests that you should provide an environment in which work exists. Government can do that by backing and promoting industry (through legislation and actions, not cash), so it has to be a whole solution, not just attacking what are seen as the 'workshy'. Certainly the benefits system now makes life too cosy, but I do think that the drivers and motivators, the emotions and ambitions of these people should be considered at the same time. And the package would need to include morality (so further outraging the BBC and the Guardian) for which we need proper enforcement of common sense rules in society. For example, public servants have become better paid and with better pensions and employment terms than any other sector, with 'Chief Executives' of local councils earning huge sums. Rein that nonsense in and you start to create a fairer society. It is an entire ball of wax and one bit affects another. It is not simple to get right. But destruction only needs a lack of care, which is what we have had for 13 years and so find ourselves in the current mess. We need to replace the Labour belief that the people as a whole are failures and change that to a belief that through aspiration, anyone can improve their lot. Let's make Britain an optimistic country.

Dan Grover

Fabian, I think a part of the problem is that most people won't know whether you're a parody or not, and then eer on the side of the former and give you a parody response. Perhaps. But, for what it's worth, I'm presumably of "your generation" (being, as I am, 21) and I wish you wouldn't claim to represent me.

Ahmed Khan

Fabian - I am really glad you have decided to leave the blog. Before you go will you please confirm if you are the Tory MP for Gillingham & Rainham???

TheE17Tory

weep! why dont you move to north korea and live in your socilaist dream state then?..no, thought not...wax lyrical about the 'proliteriat' from your house in hampstead.

ollie

Fabian, say hi to Gordon when you get put back in your padded cell, and then have a lie down and think long and very hard why people here treat you with such contempt.

We don't live in a Communist state - if you want that, buggar off to North Korea where you can be with like-minded people.

Fox in a box

See ya, FS - and I wish you all the best for your forthcoming "A" level exams.

To the matter in hand: if the coalition achieves the restoration of fiscal responsibility, reforms education, reforms welfare and reforms the tax system, as they have set out to do. Then what a moribund administration the last one will be rightly seen to be.

Steven

Which particular lesson in history supports your statement:

"History teaches us that capitalism's defeat is inevitable, as is the ultimate triumph of the proletariat".

Mark C

Two great bits of news in one blog: the welfare reforms by IDS and Flabby Sellout leaving the Spectator blogs in peace. Oh, and the cricket season has properly started. Bliss!

Kennybhoy

Oh you just can not be for real.....?

Blofeld's Cat

FS - That's really, really funny. Please don't go - I haven't enjoyed reading the blogs so much for a long time.

Incidentally, your posts get much the same response on CiF, which I also follow from time to time. Perhaps your "progressive" ideas are not quite as honest and mainstream as you like to think.

John Lea

Anxious Warrior: Since when did incentivising work (or removing the disincentives to work - whichever way you like to put it) make you 'truly evil'? The point is that we have a welfare system in this country - paid for by tax-payers, many of whom are NOT rich people themselves - which is completely insupportable. Life on benefits should never be an option.

nonny mouse

IDS certainly has some great ideas and I expect great things from him in his new job. However, I do think you may be overselling his abilities just a touch. Expecting the welfare problem to be fixed overnight with a magic bullet policy done on the cheap is a little naive. I'm sure the situation can be improved, but fixed for good?

Remeber how Blair promised the earth and failed, even though he was working with the best econmic situation for generations? Fixing Britain is a ten year plus project. All we can expect in the first parliament is to bring the defecit under control and make a a good start in other areas.

Without wanting to return to NewLab targets, what are some real achievable goals given Labour's economic mess? E.G. 200,000 people off long term benefits and back in work, saving 2 billion a year (insert your numbers here).

Making a real dent in the underlying problem requires the right policy applied at the right point in the economic cycle. It may actually be better to spend that 3 billion in a couple of years time when new jobs are being created for people to take up. For now, it might be better spending the money on getting the job market going again, For example. NI relief for small businesses, reducing corporation tax.

Laughing Larry

"And one last warning for you right-wingers. History teaches us that capitalism's defeat is inevitable, as is the ultimate triumph of the proletariat. The Red Flag will one day triumph - despite these setbacks."

The only prols left nowadays are on sink estates that your brothers & sisters have neglected since 1997. Took the Tories to get Frank Field in some serious traction.

Left end, me old mucker.

GDS

FS,

mind you don't let the door smack you on the @rse as you leave.

Pete Hoskin

nonny mouse: yes, you're right - original headline was a wee bit hyperbolic. Have changed it now.

H

It won't actually leave. It will come back as 'Progressive Prat' or some rubbish like it did on the Telegraph blogs. People should just ignore it.

Gaelforce9

Aww - please don't go Fabian. You've really cheered me up these last few days - the blog has never been so much fun.

If you think the comments you've had on here are insulting, then you've never been really thoroughly insulted.

Anyway, best of luck with the exams, and I do hope the inevitable disillusionment, when it comes, is not too painful.

The Man

I can't take seriously anyone who uses the word 'solutions' as a proper noun. And it's not as if the Fabians have any anyway.

Vulture

Fabster:

despite you having put me at the top of your list of xenophobic, islamophobick, Brownphobic etc nasties who have scared you off and sent you blubbing back to old Uncle Gordo, I'd like to disassociate myself from all these childish 'Good riddance' comments.

Now f**K off back under whatever slimy rock you crawled from, you ignorant little berk.

Norman Dee

Fabian Solutions, yet sadly you are reading these comments, aren't you ?. Please take your friend Richard with you(unless he goes everywhere you go already, supplying the voices in your head) Both ex patients of the Arthur Scargill Blinkers for the Socially Blind Clinic. why not try visiting one of the succesful communist countries where your dreams can come true, heres a short list for you,
North Korea
Cuba
ummm. no, thats it.

EC

Fabian Solutions (the not so Fabulous)

My only consolation is that most of you are probably over 60 and that my generation is overwhelmingly progressive.

Do not be consoled. You will find that you are wrong on both counts!

Those who’ve abused me – you know who you are – should hang your heads in shame.

Until now I have somehow omitted to cause you any offence. I really must apologise for this oversight. Now piss off you w*nker!

Kennybhoy

Gaelforce9 wrote:

"If you think the comments you've had on here are insulting, then you've never been really thoroughly insulted."

Ahem. The silly wee individual has been known to turn up over at Guido's now and again. That lot make the Coffee Housers look positively tame. LOL

Verity

Fabian Solutions - you are an unwitting lobbyist for a new law I would like to promote, to wit, the shooting of socialist vermin on sight. They are vicious, self-righteous, greedy, destructive bloodsuckers on the corpus of civilisation. I believe it would also be a public service to bomb places where they gather.

I think we should also raze council estates to the ground and let the former bloodsuckers - ooops! - tenants! I meant tenants! - find their own accommodation in the private sector. This might involve them taking employment.

I would like to see a total ban on socialism/communism. It has never worked, anywhere in the world. Also, not to be cruel, but it is the political party of ugly people.

Kennybhoy

Gaelforce9 wrote:

".. then you've never been really thoroughly insulted."

The silly wee person has made the odd appearance over at Guido's. The do not take prisoners. We Coffee Housers are gentlefolk in comparison! LOL

Liz Brown

diddums...........oh and good riddance

AAE

Can Fabian Solutions name one single socialist politician of say the last thirty years who has chosen to live in a high-rise flat in the poorest part of his or her constituency and lived on the national minimum wage, giving earnings in excess of that to charity, perhaps one of those who deal with long-term industrial diseases? Not the Kinnocks, nor the Blairs, Browns, Prescotts . . . . . None of them. Instead of whingeing here, why don't you do us all a favour and write to all the red-flag flying Lefties and ask them why it's ok for them to acquire wealth and power on the backs of those, who dependent totally on the State, are left living in appalling conditions on demeaning handouts, deliberately uneducated and if they ever showed ambition or aspiration, had it kicked out them for being elitist.

exile on euro street

@AAE - FabSol is probably too "progressive" to have heard of him but Dave Nellist, trotskyist former Labour MP for Coventry SE and past winner of Spectator backbencher of the year, gets close to meeting your criteria. Then again, he had principles even if they were a minority taste.

Ed P

My first & last comment to you, Fabian: piss off (and take that Dick of Dork with you). You have added nothing of value with your comments.

Robert Calhoun

Yet another leftie assuming an incorrect moral high ground and misuse of the English language. I've never heard anything more laughable than "progressive" when applied to the left.

Anyway - glad you are off. I can only assume you would come here to antagonise so suggest you best head back to the Guardian/Observer blogs.

TTFN

Rob

despair

Congratulations Coffee House sheep, you've just done exactly what FS wanted you to. Instead of discussing the IDS plan to park Tory tanks on Labour's welfare lawn you've wasted an entire comment list hurling abuse at someone who really doesn't care. FS must be laughing his progressive socks off.

Chuck Unsworth

@ Fabian Solutions,

Is this a threat or a promise?

Please let it be the latter.

Sayonara.

jaybs

As a supporter of IDS and someone who I respect, I'm somewhat disappointed with some of the statements which the media have picked on, such as his attacks on invalidity benefit, which genuine claimants are going to get anxious about.

We have a wealth of young people who can;t get jobs, but IDS puts so much stress on scrapping any retirement age, no wonder business is concerned, workers up to 70 who will in most cases be just hanging on.

Is it not priorities first, get young people into work, then those who do not seem to want to work and have not done so for many years and are still in their 20's, 30's and 40's. There are many people with disabilities who just can't get jobs and we as a party want to push those who are disabled and have severe sickness into work or finding work?

Has such as IDS and many politicians ever gone through the claimant system? do they know how it is like jumping through hoops for genuine claimants while those few who work the system get away with it. NO! they do not have a clue,for example how the points system works for DLA benefits people are allowed to claim and how the testing system is a pure joke, now run by the private sector who like schools and hospitals are on targets and so genuine people far too often suffer.

Llew

FS's post sounds suspiciously like something Rik would say in an episode of the Young Ones. Are you really Mr Mayall taking the piss?

Chuck Unsworth

Anyway, back to IDS.

You're right, he has put in the work - in a very big way. What's impressive is that he, like some others in this coalition, is really on top of his brief. As a Leader of the Opposition he was, in my view, too timid and too gentlemanly. But running a big department is absolutely what he is ideal for.

I wish him luck. It's a terribly difficult and daunting task, but he has courage and intellect (and a certain charm) on his side. With a fair wind he'll do very well. Let us hope so for all our sakes.

AAE

@exile on euro street
Thank you for that. Nellist is a reminder too that many anti-EEC campaigners came from the Left as well as from the Right.

Woody

Why is it everytime I turn on the TV, I see an ex-Labour minister 'opposing' this policy in the style that only they can. It was the same with Michael Gove's education policy. What happened to Labour being a responsible opposition but then they don't know the meaning of the word.
They and the MSM need reminding that they LOST the election.

Simon Stephenson

anxiouswarrior : 4.46pm

Do you think that your style of communication owes more to the techniques of written English you were taught at school, or to a detailed study of "From The Message Boards", in Private Eye?

P.S. Where did you learn to spell anxious?

Joesph Alan Jones

Realizing that it is our Labour friends who worry most about "global warming" I have found a solution to the problem. The culprits are said to be CO2 and methane (CH4) therefore this would be solved if all animals (two and four legged) stop breathing and farting. Maybe the most concerned could start and prove to the rest of us ordinary dumb folk that the solution will work.

R

this is the most amusing thread for ages!

out of interest - surely the Red Flag is all about revolution, whereas fabianism is about non-revolutionary gradualism (hence the name). In fact, I think that fabians are the cowards and traitors referred to in the chorus.

THX1138

IDS has just employed Philippa Stroud the "pray away the gay" women as his SPAD.. Never give a job to religious nutter, it's bound to end in tears.

jaybs

As Woody so clearly states Labour ministers and even the Party itself in The Commons are making clowns of themselves, like the US Republican Party they may have done much better putting their own house in order first. I just wonder if the electorate will remember this sad episode?

Rhoda Klapp

Yeah, but what bloody jobs, that is what I would like to know. Makework? Jobs from immigrants sent home? Jobs from EU likewise? That seems to be the unanswered question with this policy. And don't tell me training, that only provides jobs for the trainers.

David Lindsay

I often like Iain Duncan Smith, a good Social Catholic who is on record that he doesn't mind which party implements those agenda, so long as they are implemented. He now has the chance to do so himself. Will he recognise that the solution to the problem of benefits paying more than work is to make work pay more? Just look up any of the Popes, not only since Leo XIII, but pretty much for ever. Or read the Bible.

Paddy

Despair: Yes but it has been so much fun.
I haven't laughed so much for ages.

FS: Get your unemployment benefit while it lasts.

TGF UKIP

Can't understand why you lot pay the slightest attention to people like Fatbloke or RoY. As I've pointed out before, they only exist as wind-up merchants so if you ignore them they'll bugger off back to their own sort at the Grauniad or the Statesperson of their own volition.

However, it is nice to see that in the case of this pompous, prissy prat some good old personal abuse has succeeded. Don't like it up 'em, do they? Or perhaps they do, which is why they stay so long.

Stevie

Fabian Solutions is really Sion Simon --- I claim my £5!!!

Andrew Brown

Welfare reform is well overdue because not only because of its sheer cost but because life on benefits is inherently tragic and unhealthy. It predisposes to social isolation, lack of confidence and self esteem, and given that 5 million people claim working aghe benefits it is a tremendous waste of human potential and a national resouurce. At least that would perhaps be the case for it. It falls to Ian Duncan Smith, the Dr. Beeching of welfare to reshape the benefits landscape. In the haste to get a long overdue job done major mistakes with tragic social consequences could result. Firstly the in progress welfare reforms in which Employment Support Allowance has replaced Incapacity Benefit. This new benefit is producing 8000 appeals per month and 40 per cent of cases are upheld. The benefit was wrongly withdrawn or refused . That is a lot of injustice. Many of those case are mental health and the process drags on for many months with great stress and often financial hardship for those involved. So lets not forget that the majority who claim the new (and rather strict) ESA are actually genuinely unable or significantly impaired as regards work.

A civilised society should tread carefully.
What ought to be considered is mandatory work activity, perhaps in the community a couple of days per week. This would apply to all who are capable and would preserve/ develop a work habit and close a gap in a CV and facilitate a reference. Additionally it would undermine the grotesque stigma that is associated with benefits claimants. A further reform could be considered as regards the earnings limits on benefits. A single unemployed person on Jobseekers Allowance can earn 5 pounds per week without it affecting their benefit. That should be significantly increased because it would enable a person to do just a few hours part time work, for which the income may help avoid debts and as with my other suggestion, could plug a CV gap and produce a reference. Also it would discourage black economy working too.
OK so there are a few ideas, but before the taxpayer salivates at the idea that at last the government is to eliminate welfare parasitism here are a few thoughts. Firstly the price of economic recovery here will certainly be a return of EU economic migrants who will compete and invariably take the low paid jobs needed for these welfare reforms to work. Secondly, unemployment will be rising (and the welfare bill escalating) in the coming months because over 200.000 young people are likely to be refused access to university, not to mention the effect of cuts already announced and the potential for further unemployment herte should trade diminish with europe as a result of its escalating problems. These are very real possibilities, or even probabilities.

For what its worth I do not think welfare reform as regards social outcomes will succeed in our overcrowded labor market and given the rise of the eastern economies. Welfare reform here is likely to increase poverty for more people than it reduces it. What seems clear is that the promised 'age of austerity ' is to begin and who knows how long for

Praxis Juncture

IDS may have the where-with-all to remove recipients from the benefit of the state, but he doesn't have the power to create jobs.

The best stats that we have are ONS vacancy data, which suggest there are about 0.5m vacacies. This is not much higher than the 'friction rate' we'd expect from movement between jobs etc.

Its worth noting that that over the last upswing of the full business cycle, 1993 to 2008, the economy added 4 million jobs as a ratio 2 FT for 1 PT. That's about 250,000 jobs per year. It required an average GDP growth of approx 2.7% per year.

Assuming Gideon and Vince can deliver this level of growth, after 5 years they will only have created about 1.5m jobs.

Is that enough for IDS?

Steven

Introduce Benefit Vouchers. Can only be spent on certain items ( like food stamps in the US). Vouchers should cover essentials - basic food, basic clothes, basic gas and electric. They should not enable 'lavish' life styles and buying of toys, games, TV's, ready meals, visits to restaurants. People can go to the library and get books to entertain themselves while they look for and retrain for work. All the so called definitions of poverty today are based on a materialistic view of the world.

Robert Taggart

YAWN ! another 'attempt' to rid you all of us scroungers ! You will not succeed... we can always come up with new excuses... believe us... one has for 27 years !
But, should the authorities simplify the system (not before time) that in itself will save the taxpayers much dosh... and still leave some for us !
Steven, you suggest vouchers, hm, methinks that will cost you more... all that additional administration.
All this 'talk' about 'cracking down' on benefits claimants / cheats, hu, depressing, ah... depression !

jaybs

Are these Benefit Vouchers for those who are disabled and have severe illness?

FabianSolutions

Right, you all fell for that one, didn't you, you frothing, foul-mouthed ignorant bunch of right-wing retards? Of course I'm not going.

Successful socialist state? China, or is that not big enough for you? Would I live there? Yes I would. Have done, in fact. And so do a few thousand Britons who cannot get work in the good old UK.

David Short

How dopey the Spectator is becoming. There are probably four or five times as many jobless as there are vacancies. Geddit?

JohnAnt

Revert to the 1970s system where no school-leaver or graduate was ever given benefits of any kind until they'd worked for a certain number of years. Make that 5 years.
The problem is only soluble at the younger end. The old lags are too cunning at making themselves unemployable.

David Short

Ha ha....people living on public welfare (MPs) who prefer that than getting a real job telling people on benefits to go and get a (non-existent) job.

David Short

FablonScrewloose, China is not 'successful socialist state', it is a totalitarian, communist dictatorship. If you want to live in a country with no individual freedoms and the highest rate of capital punishment in the world, but cossetted because you are a round-eye, then go and take your idiotic, unprincipled and cruel mindset with you.

Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

Steven

@ Robert Taggart - Minimal additional costs over the existing scheme, think "Luncheon Vouchers", that scheme worked for many years and with technology "Vouchers" doesn't have to mean a burdensome paper scheme. Debit Card, pre-programmed with all allowable items built in.

@jaybs - Disabled and people with severe illnesses need care in addition to support. Vouchers might make up a part of their support package.

@FS - Please answer my question regarding the lessons of history that you cited earlier. Further China is not so much a "socialist state" as an authoritarian regime that is practicing controlled capitalism (at least economic capitalism not social liberalism). This has for centuries been the way that capitalism has been successfully introduced into growing economies as it has been shown that capitalism only takes hold in an emerging economy once Per Capita GDP exceeds a certain level (approx $3,000) before then some form of autocracy is (on the whole) beneficial as any economy that is predominantly focused on personal security and basic subsistence does not function well (see Palestine).

jaybs

Steven, any party that would even consider vouchers for the disabled and those with severe sickness do not deserve to be in power.

JohnBUK

@ Andrew Brown "A civilised society should tread carefully...."
@jaybs "...any party that would even consider vouchers..."

Yes, of course, given enough resources we'd all prefer to be kind and caring etc to those less fortunate than ourselves. BUT we are BROKE due to the fact that the last lot of caring/sharing crooks took all our money and savings and sprayed them liberally around the State urinal without too much attention (other than to how it affected their own ability to remain in power).
So, sadly, it appears we now have to tighten the old purse strings for a few decades until we can build up a nest egg when we can then feel in the mood for caring and sharing again.
The poor naive electorate who are around at that time will once again fall for the old "lets feel good about ourselves routine" and vote in the next Labour regime so we can go round the circle once more.
Luckily I won't be here then but it will happen I can assure you.