Flotilla follies

TrevorsDen

Pardon me but who are the 'neo conservatives' in the conservative party?

David Lindsay

You could construct a very good case that, at least apart from the aberration under a classic Edwardian Liberal businessman-councillor's daughter who was not really a Tory or a conservative at all, the Conservatives have always been more Arabist (and more sceptical about alliance with America) than Labour has been in Government rather than in Opposition.

Just as, of course, Labour has always been the more Eurosceptical of the two, really. A tradition valiantly upheld on the floor of the House today, against William Hague, by Kelvin Hopkins and Ian Davidson.

The posher the Tories, the more Arabist (and Americosceptic) they have been, and remain. This Government is very, very posh indeed.

porkbelly

Just imagine that - a government "obsessed with not being seen as weak"! Whatever will they think of next.

Viv Evans

'Level of violence bound to be seen as disproportionate'?
After the killing of 12 people, and the injuries to 25 yesterday, by one man, I'd think the use of'disproportionate' for what the Israeli soldiers did in self defense is now highly questionable. It shows, in fact, that the propaganda of the 'free Gaza' crowd ahs already ebcome well established.

as for Israel doing what she does so as 'not to look weak' - come on! Is it now 'weak' to defend oneself? A look at a map of the ME, and a comparison of the population numbers of Israel with those of the countries bordering it should make abundantly clear that it is not about looking weak or strong, but about defense.
Or do you really think that if Israel would cut back on her defense all her neighbours would do the same?
You have heard of 'hudna', haven't you?
If not, I suggest you find out!

Richard of Cirencester

I am a Zionist and, by definition, an enthusiastic supporter of Israel. I have no problem with the Israelis interdicting the convoy. Whilst there were, no doubt, genuine 'peace activists' amongst those on board,many if not most of them were useful idiots. There can be no doubt that the people behind this flotilla set out to provoke an incident. To them, the death toll is a price worth paying.

What makes me despair is the way in which Israel repeatedly loses the PR war to their enemies. Where were the stun grenades or the tear gas? Why did they not link allowing the the 'aid' into Gaza to freedom for Gideon Shalit? Why use tactics that made the 'peace activists' look like victims? Why not simply blockade the entrance to Gaza port?

Yes, the world is naive. Yes, the world is hypocritical. But the Israeli Government has got to learn to box clever and out-psych its enemies.

Pete

The Israeli behaviour is understandable - anyone who has lived in New York will also understand the American reaction.

However, time is not on the side of the Israelis. The longer they take to get a workable settlement with the Palestinians the less chance Israel has of surviving in the long term.

MaxSceptic

The side benefit of all this is that nobody with half a brain will ever want Turkey to be part of the EU until it jettisoned its islamist/Ottoman conversion and has reverted to the secular Attaturk-inspired, western-facing republic we all thought it was.... (So, no hope there!).

Neil Turner

"Personally, I think the Israelis made a mistake; the publicity has deflected pressure on Iran, they endangered their links with Turkey"

Absolute tosh. I can't tell you how angry I am at the betrayal of Israel by the Government and you in the media.

How easily you were deceived. You chose to believe the Islamist's lies: "Peace activists"; "humanitarian aid" etc. I thought journalists were paid to probe and test the story to see what is really going on. You fools.

With a very few exceptions,the media community should hang their heads in shame.

Check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV6DVk04HkM for a proper concise expose

David Lindsay

An affection is one thing, but an alliance is quite another. America might very well have an affection for Israel. But she has an alliance with Turkey. Sooner an occasionally difficult friend than a spoilt child.

Evidently. Since the Turkish undertaking of naval protection for future flotillas, an undertaking which once given can never be entirely revoked, could not have been given without the approval of the Pentagon. Turkey knows who has her back, and who therefore does not have the other side's. Public sentiment does not enter into it. Where was the public sentiment to "liberate" Kuwait from, and to defend Saudi Arabia against, Saddam Hussein? If necessary, the media can manufacture such feeling. That is what they are kept on for.

Even Presidential opinion hardly matters, certainly not when the President in question has neither military experience nor, as the last one had, any role as the front man for some cult of foreign policy loonies who had staged a coup. The military will just tell Obama to stay out formally while backing Turkey informally. And Obama will just do it.

But, as Craig Murray asks, whatever happened to NATO? A NATO member-state has been attacked. Will everyone now realise what a waste of time and money that organisation is?

Kennybhoy

Richard of Cirencester wrote:

"What makes me despair is the way in which Israel repeatedly loses the PR war to their enemies."

Israel has not done propaganda/PR properly since the end of the Mapai hegemony. The attitude of Likud ,their allies and supporters has always been "nobody likes us we don't care"! It is enough to make you weep...

Daniel Korski

Neil

I chose my words carefully - I did not say that the Israeli action was not legal or legitimate. Nor did I say the boat was full of innocent people.

My point is a different one - namely that Israel, not for the first time, let pursuit of a failing policy, desire to look strong and tactical concerns undermine its strategic objective - stopping Iran from going nuclear.

Daniel

smell the glove

All actions cause a reaction.The Palistine question is a perfect storm in that it is east v west. christian v muslim .wealthy v poor. old v new. theocratic v democratic.koran v bible

smell the glove

The Turkish apoplexy would be more understandable, had they come to terms with the genocide of the Armenians during the Turkish birth.

Michael Booth

What is a neo-conservative in the British context? Neo in my lexicon means 'almost' or 'crypto' - what does it mean in yours?

Michael Booth

Can't wait for the next Peace flotilla sailing towards North Korea or Mauritania or Libya or heading in jeeps towards Zimbabwe... what? Oh, yeah... right....

The Bellman

Erdogan's popularity is waning dramaticaly, the democratic opening to the Kurds is crumbling, and the PKK are readying themselves for a return to violence directed at Turkey's main cities. This was a good opportunity for his party to whip up some anti-Israeli/anti-Jew anger and the AKP are playing it jolly well.

As for 'deflecting pressure on Iran': it's surprising how little attention has been focused in the UK on Erdogan's photo-op last month with Ahmadi-Nejad. Which event do you think will have benefitted Iran more: a policing spat off Gaza, or the embrace of a 'moderate' Muslim democracy and one of the world's rising economic powers?

Vulture

I heard an interview on Today today with a British woman ( Chair of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign) who was on board the Mamara - the vessel where the deaths occurred.

In between bleating (in a special quavery voice to show how shocked she had been) abt the Israelis ( and failing to mention the iron bar assault on the commandos) she let slip that the 'activists' aboard included an 89-year-old and a one year old infant.

What were they doing there? Only one conceivable purpose: as useful idiot stooges for the Hamas/Jihadist cause.

The Israelis should have taken the people off, sunk the ships then dropped the useful idiots in the Sinai and told them to walk home. It wouldn't win the PR war, but it would stop the PR ships.

I had an interesting conversation yesty with a British writer who lives in Cairo.
He opined that the only people who hate the Palestinians more than the Israelis are the Egyptians, who wouldn't dream of letting a useful idiot convoy into Gaza.

Neil Turner

"Israel, not for the first time, let pursuit of a failing policy, desire to look strong and tactical concerns undermine its strategic objective - stopping Iran from going nuclear"

Firstly Daniel , thanks for the come back. It is appreciated

I note your point about Iran. However, Iran is not Israel's only objective. I have friends in Ashkelon, who regularly sit under a barrage of (unreported by the media) mortar and rocket fire. Typically the BBC/Telegraph/Sky/CNN will headline how "three people killed by IDF" without the context that they were firing missiles

Gaza was vacated three years ago by Israel, and has now been turned into a terrorist base.

What makes me so angry is that the media as a whole have such influence, yet choose to ignore the basic facts of the matter. Consequently, Israel looks to the uninformed as though she were the aggressor.

I don't see how Israel can be blamed for this, and thus hold the media (and UK Government) responsible

Derek Pasquill

FCO's kneejerk Arabism? A more apt circumlocution would be Sharia-compliant FCO.

Nicholas

Is Richard of Cirencester related to Richard of York or have we regressed to the mediaeval era?

Nicholas of Winchester

General Zod

The Israelis could easily have stopped the flotilla, towed it within reach of a neutral port, well away from Gaza, crippled the boats to prevent them from returning to Gaza and, most importantly, not killed people.

Instead, Israel went in gung-ho, using firearms against people armed with metal bars and knives and killed several of them.

Not very smart PR.

Minnie Ovens

A reasonable article Mr Korski, but please, the term Neo Conservative is not English but essentially American, and its use in your article just muddies the waters.

m

The Israeli raid on the humanitarian flotilla has elevated Sunni Muslim NATO-member state and its PM Erdogan to the status of the new and modern leader of the Islamic World. Since 2004 Turkey has been investing seriously in the development of relations with Arab countries. The Turkish response to Israeli raid on the humanitarian flotilla could be interpreted as an incident that is accommodating the implementation of Turkish Strategic Depth theory. The concept of "Strategic Depth" in Turkish foreign policy refers to the academic work of Professor Ahmet Davutoglu, who published his Turkish
international relations book of the same title in 2001. The main thesis of his book is that a nation's value in world politics is predicated on
its geo-strategic location and historical depth. But with Turkey having
already created to the certain extent anti-Israeli profile in Davos sometime
ago, Erdogan will try to seize this moment and might try to become another
Nasser in another Pan-Arab Dream.

The Masked Marvel

General Zod,

Quite right. The Israeli soldiers should have sacrificed themselves to the cause once the "peace activists" attacked them. A few dead Israelis would help make things more proportionate, no?

digbydolben

Richard of Cirencester, this is not the Israeli government of yesteryear, and yes, Mr. Korski, it does still have the immediate strategic objective of stopping Iran from going nuclear; the only difference is that it doesn't trust the present American government to support it when it strikes unilaterally--as it intends to do--at Iranian nuclear assets.

The way to understand what just happened in Gaza is that it was a type of political theatre--no "blunder" at all, by either side. The "humanitarians'" audience for their rather clever stunt is the anti-Zionist European public (including most of the Brits) and the few Americans who are pro-Palestinian.

The Zionists' audience, on the other hand, for their totally unnecessary use of "assymetrical force" (they could have stopped that boat with frogmen; they've done that before; they CHOSE these tactics deliberately) is their own Israeli electorate, whom they are moblilizing to acquiesce in their imminent attack on Iran, as well as American Jewry, whom they hope to modibilize, to stay Obama's hand in nixing further ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the former Mandate, and--most especially--in opposing their unilateral strike across American-controlled-until-August airspace. We in the West are being played for suckers by both these fanatical, bloodthirsty and eternally resentful peoples. In order to avoid being drawn into the bloody denouement of their ancient quarrel, we need to serve notice to BOTH that we are withdrawing from the "peace process," cutting off all "aid" to both, and leaving them to destroy each other.

General Zod

Don't be ridiculous, masked marvel. If trained soldiers cannot deal with activists armed with steel bars and knives without killing them, then they should be kicked out of the army.

General Zod

m, it would be interesting to know how you think a Turk could lead a Pan-Arab Dream.

The Masked Marvel

General Zod,

Don't be ridiculous yourself. How is one trained soldier supposed to stop ten or more armed "peace activists" from stabbing and beating him to death, then? You are not talking sense. You're demanding something that is simply not physically possible.

General Zod

by not standing next to them letting himself get stabbed, of course.

The Masked Marvel

General Zod,

You're now dancing away from the issue, attempting to avoid answering a very difficult question. It's pointless to debate a non-existent scenario. The facts are that the Israeli soldiers ended up "standing next to" armed people determined to kill or be killed. Once they are there, what would you have them do?

Percy

@ Nicholas of Winchester

I do hope so.

Percy of Tadcaster