Pakistan: friend or foe?

Scary Biscuits

The simple answer is to stop giving money to Pakistan and to ensure that allies such as Saudi Arabia also stop if they want to remain our friends.

The Pakistani govt would immediately collapse and probably be replaced by a more extreme version. But what then? If they continued to back the Taliban they would be justifying US attacks on them directly. If they kicked off with India again, they would create a powerful alliance between India and the US (a desirable outcome for everybody in the west, particularly the UK). Over time the extreme government would also collapse with no friends, except fellow basket cases like N Korea, and no exports to speak of. Ultimately a more moderate and sane government would emerge with the genuine backing of its own people and Pakistand would cease to be the epicentre of world terrorism, as India put it.

IDS has argued that giving money to poor areas such as Liverpool or teenage mums, merely rewards failure and thus embeds it. Much better to stop the benefits. The same principle should apply to the third world. The Department for International Development is as much a cause of poverty as over generous domestic welfare. Both should be stopped not just to reduce taxes but primarily to help the disadvantaged.

Colin

Remind me, again, how much do we send to this hostile hell hole each year, as part of the overseas aid budget?

And, remind me again, why we, as a country are borrowing in order to ring fence this budget?

Vulture

The ISI gave birth to the Afghan Taliban back in the early 1990s in roder to control Afghanistan.

They are clearly still running it today.

I think Daniel's question is a no-brainer.
Islam is the enemy.

Osred

Friend or foe?

A snake.

Beer Moth

Final paragraph: "...between the ISI and..." Afghanistan surely?

Verity

Brilliant post, Scary Biscuits!

KCB

Scary Biscuits

Mainly because Pakistan has nuclear weapons, as dangerous as it is now, a more extreamist leadership could have terrible implications.

Dennis Dey

Pakistan views Afghanistan as an area of "strategic depth" in the event of a war with India, hence it will do everything in its power to bring down the pro-Western, Indian-educated Karzai. The ISI's links with the Taliban are no secret. Its surprising that it so long for anyone to expose it.

Mycroft

This is a morass; but whatever happens, we don't want extreme Islamists gaining control of a country with nuclear weapons. The partition of India has to be one of the most tragic errors (perhaps unavoidable) that occcured during the winding up of the Emoire. If one has any possible doubts about the value of secular democracy, one only has to compare India with Pakistan.

MaxSceptic

Give India carte blanche to deal with Pakistan as it sees fit.

David Lindsay

As Peter Hitchens is wont to say, Pakistan is not a country with an army, but an army with a country. A permanent unit is maintained to stage a coup whenever the generals deem it appropriate, as they do remarkably often.

No civilian politician is allowed anywhere near the nuclear codes. Whereas the “Islamist militants” whose potential acquisition of those codes is supposed to frighten us silly, while they probably do not have them, are certainly too important politically to be left in the outer darkness where these matters are concerned.

And yet, and yet, and yet, and yet… Somehow, what can reasonably claim to be the strangest country in the world, even including North Korea, manages to get by.

With our recent, ongoing and adjacent track record, we should keep it that way.

PuppetMaster

I thought this was common knowledge? It also explains why the Taliban blows up schools and hospitals. Pakistan wants Afghanistan to remain weak so that it can control it more easily. It's probably also a good place to get rid of young Pakistani militants, but with terrorism expanding now in Pakistan itself, it's a strategy that doesn't seem to be working very well of late.

Beer Moth

Dennis Dey

Agree: the link must be old news to the West's intelligence watchers.

As well as surprise that it has not been outed before now; this sudden exposé does invite speculation as to what might be in the offing.

Henry II

Who will rid us of this troublesome..set of snakes?

Nikos Retsos

The story is fishy for these reasons: a) The U.S. suspects -as I do - that the Pakistani ISI doesn't tell the U.S. everything it does or exactly what its connections with the Taliban are. It is normal. The U.S. intelligent services also don't tell their allies 100% of what they do. Even here in the U.S., agencies don't tell share all information with other U.S. agencies, and even withhold critical information from each other. That is why the U.S. Congress created the position of "National Director of Intelligence" to force the merging of all agencies information, but still the old mistrust and antipathy prevails.

The report by Mr. Matt Waldman is quite preposterous. The Pakistani army killed thousands of Taliban, turned thousands of villages into rubble, and created 4-6 million refugees from that scorched land. Now, if the report's claim that Pakistan is in bed with the Taliban, and that it actually giving the Taliban a monthly salary, then we have to assume that the Waldman report was commissioned to mud-sling the Pakistani establishment, embarrass it, an force them to wipe out any Taliban within its borders. And I don't care if the report uses the names Harvard, or London School of Economics. History has it that prestigious institutions receive hundreds of millions in government money {as grants} to support the government's policy - along with similar "Think Tank" groups that spit out only opinions that support U.S. the foreign policy. Those are the paid mercenary loud-mouths that are paid to turn any American war into a democracy crusade!

Does the Pakistani ISI do all it can to help the U.S.? Of course not! The American and the Pakistani Interests are opposite in Central Asia, and the ISI works to make sure that when the U.S. is forced out of Afghanistan - Vietnam style, they will be on control of the situation - not any American puppet!
Nikos Retsos, retired professor

Verity

Henry II - Well ... not co-religionist Obama ... and not multiculti Dave ...

... maybe when Sarah Palin gets in, if we can wait that long. She's a decisive, clear-headed - along the lines of Margaret Thatcher - individual of action. And she has strong chief executive experience, having been the elected governor of America's largest and richest, in oil, state.

(Some Brits don't understand how independent states are, nor how important their governors are. For example, no American president can send American troops into an American state without the permission of that state's governor. That's why George W Bush was unable to send troops into Louisiana until the third day after Hurricane Katrina. Governor Blanco hadn't finished stitching up her deals with contractors for redevelopment and she refused to give her permission.)

In American South (sic) terminology, Sarah Palin's a pistol, and she'll get Afghanistan and Pakistan sorted out. To the advantage of the West. She has a clear, direct way of thinking.

Kennybhoy

Way too many questions left a begging here...

For example. Define Pakistan for the purposes of the discussion? Is it the people as a whole or in parts, the government as a whole or factions within it, the army as a whole or factions within it, the ISI...? Is the ISI motivated by genuine sympathy for the Taliban,the form of Islam they represent and the wider global jihad or by the imperatives of the strategic stand off with India? The AFPAK designation is useful but should not blind us to the wider regional picture.

"Based on interviews with nine Taliban field commanders.."

Aye and like they were completely honest with Mr Waldman, and the ISI were completely honest with them. LOL

"..nobody is sure what to do about it beyond what the Obama administration has been doing."

God save us all from those who would do something about it. God save us all from C21st news and electoral cycles! The "Great Game" has been running for centuries. There is no big headline catching overnight solution here. Political or military. We are engaged in a long game in which diplomats and intelligence services must in the first instance work unseen to prevent any kind of nuclear exchange, and maybe create the conditions for one of those aforesaid headline catching bigger solutions.

Sherlock

Mycroft writes: "If one has any possible doubts about the value of secular democracy, one only has to compare India with Pakistan."

Certainly! But, regarding partition, it was still better to diffuse as many of them out of a newly independent India as possible! Imagine, with the way multiple-"wived" muslims breed, how many of them there would be in India by now. Enough to vote democracy out, and shariah law in, for example.

I don't know what smoker and drinker muslim Jinnah's idea was, but it is to be welcomed. Millions of them gone from India and breeding elsewhere.

For once, I can entertain your thinking.

Verity

Nikos Retsus or whatever, one cannot switch back and forth in this system ... I think in the scheme of things, Paksistani intersts may be the least important on the planet. The game has been played by the big boys for around 300 years, so no one gives much of crap what the people who have been living in Pakistan, and never advancing, for several hundred years think.

The "thoughts" of Islamics are not important, nor ever have been.

maddy1

Some people have already said here. The only answer, is the real Paksitan and a war with India. Our boys are dying for the Indians!

John

Pakistan - friend or foe? Foe, most definitely. If we have to fight Islamic terrorism anywhere, we should start with Pakistan.

porkbelly

The London School of Economics is a "paid mercenary loudmouth" of the US Government?? Shurely shome mishtake, Professor??

Sarfraz

Pakistan committed the biggest folly of aligning with the West and defeating former USSR in Afghanistan. They MUST be punished for this.

Roger Davies

I think Bush had an idea that the borderland between the two countries could be made to glow in the dark.

SARFRAZ HUSSAIN

VERIFIED.

SARFRAZ HUSSAIN

PAKISTANIS ARE A STUPID NATION WHO DID WELL TO HELP WEST DEFEAT USSR IN AFGHANISTAN. THEY MUST BE PUNISHED FOR THIS SO THAT THEY DO NOT COMMIT THIS FOLLY AGAIN.

SARFRAZ HUSSAIN

PAKISTAN DESERVES TO BE PUNISHED FOR HELPING WESTERN POWERS TO THROW USSR OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

Catesby

Nikos Retsos

It is not unheard of for the Left Hand (the intelligence services) to be doing something quite at odds with what the Right Hand (the armed forces, the government etc.) is doing.

Tim Carpenter LPUK

Friend or Foe?

Neither, and both.

Pakistan will act in what it believes is its national interest. And so should we until the world does not contain aggressive states.

So does France, Germany, the US, China, India and lets face it almost any other country bar, probably, one: the UK.

Kennybhoy

Mycroft wrote:

"The partition of India has to be one of the most tragic errors (perhaps unavoidable) that occcured during the winding up of the Emoire."

Partition was unavoidable and most certainly the lesser evil by far. India is a patchwork of languages, ethnicities and religions. A huge and diverse geographical area that could very easily have split into numerous countries in 1947.

Kennybhoy

Verity wrote:

"Brilliant post, Scary Biscuits!"

Jesus wept! Another fortune teller! I thought you admired India and the Indians?

Kennybhoy

maddy1 wrote:

"Some people have already said here. The only answer, is the real Paksitan and a war with India."

That is an apt pseudonym you employ there! LOL!

Do you have any idea how many innocents would die in a war between India and Pakistan? Do you think said war would remain confined to the region?

"Our boys are dying for the Indians!"

Our boys are fighting for Britain's vital national interests. And the Indians,including present day Pakistan, fought valiantly for us. Most recently in two world wars. You should visit the Indian Army Memorial Room at Sandhurst sometime.

Kennybhoy

Tim Carpenter LPUK:

".. And so should we until the world does not contain aggressive states."

I didnae take you for a fellow interventionist..? LOL!

".. and lets face it almost any other country bar, probably, one: the UK."

Do you mean this as a compliment or a condemnation?

Beer Moth

Nikos Retsos.

What happened to your other reasons why this story is fishy? You gave us 'a)' only, and that was very weak.

What is cited in this report is not just an instance whereby the Pakistani Intelligence Service has chosen to engage in a little fibbing. There is clear evidence that they are a dynamic part of the machine which is fighting our forces. As such they are our enemy.

What to do with such a service?

Tim Carpenter LPUK

@Kennybhoy

1. Action does not mean intervention.

2. Not a compliment.

maddy1

These people were fighting each other before the Raj during the Raj and after the Raj. Read Paul's Scott quartet for the true story. Britsh Army does not critize anybody who fought in it even at the expense of the truth.

maddy1

India is a patchwork of languages, ethnicities and religions. A huge and diverse geographical area that could very easily have split into numerous countries in 1947................................................

So it still is a patchwork quilt, Kenny my boy, have you not noticed? By and large a successful democracy by Asian standards. The only problem it has a mad, muslim, mongrel dog snapping at its ankles whilst it attempts to enrich its poor!!!It made a mistake compromising during the last two wars with Pakistan and enabled the latter to become sort of Nuke, but they have one stuckdown the Karzi i am afraid.

Kennybhoy

maddy1,

I would refer you to my post above regarding the appropriateness of your pseudonym.

Steven

Ah, Kenny, just read your previous message - yes, I think you're right!