Cameron's provocative language over Gaza serves to obscure the issue

davidk

What is so provocative in those words? I'm far from being a Cameron admirer, but this is as ridiculous a shot across his bow as I've seen. He should be commended not cautioned.

strapworld

Well written Mr Hoskin. But Mr Cameron has to pull out all the stops to get countries to support this drive for greater trade between us and them.

I wonder if he will be particularly brave in India and give a warning to Pakistan then?

Vulture

You are right Peter.

Cameron -as his howler over the Americans being the senior partner in fighting the war in 1940 vividly proved - may have an Oxford First, but he's a historical ignoramus.

This is all part of the ludicrous sucking-up to the Muslim world by the western elite.

It's not often that we should feel grateful to petit Sarko and Frau Frumpel, but in their oppostion to throwing open the gates of Europe to 74 million Anatolian Islamist peasants they are surely right and Dave is equally certainly wrong.

Bill Rees

A very foolish and dangerous comment by Cameron.
The only way to change the situation in Gaza is for all aid to be suspended, so that Hamas, or whoever replaced it, would be forced to look to genuinely develop the Gaza economy, and would be forced to cooperate with Israel in doing so, rather than firing rockets into its neighbour.
Right now the Gazans are rewarded both for being the victim and the aggressor.

Nickle

Complete twaddle.

Hammas are to blame?

Look Israel has been involved in land acquistion my force.

The palastinians didn't get a choice in the founding of Israel. Let Israel go back to its pre 1947 borders and lets see what happens.

Instead, the west just supports a country that practices ethnic cleansing.

It's also got nukes, and yet Iraq gets sanctions, Israel gets subsidies.

It's provocative, but I think Iraq needs nukes, if only to bring Israel to a sensible settlement in the Middle east.

strapworld

Vulture, I normally agree with you. But historically Cameron WAS correct about 1940. Was it not that year that the USA sent us the aid in arms etc that we have just finished paying for?

So we did become the junior partner in 1940!

Fairs fair. many observers wrote that he was an idiot but facts are facts are facts!

If you want a giggle visit anna raccoon (http://www.annaraccoon.com/) and read The lost gospel!

LeonF

Another of those pesky history lessons skipped, Mr Cameron?

John Lea

I think, for all the talk in the press of Cameron adopting a different - less reverential attitude - to the American government, it is quite clear that he is simply reitereating the same anti-Israeli nonsense as his hero Obama. What does Cameron know of the daily fear and intimidation that Israel faces from Islamic extremism? Aboslutely nothing. And yet, in true Blair style, he is swanning around the globe, like some sort of latter-day Kissinger, making vacuous points about complicated subjects he knows absolutely nothing about. He should stick to advertising tacky cocktails.

oldrightie

I can see in the background Bliar pulling the strings and operating the turntable.

Vulture

Straps,
If by 'arms in aid' you mean 'Lend Lease' - eg. exchanging bits of the British Empire for fifty rustbucket destroyers bound for the scrapyard, then you are right.

America - in terms of soldiers committed to war -only became the 'senior partner' after
D-day. This was reflected in the Allied Command structure which , apart from Ike as the titular Head, had Brits in command of land(Monty) sea(Pound/Ramsay) and air(tedder/leigh Mallory). Until Arnhem, senior Yank commanders were conspicuous by their absence.

Truth is that FDR was dedicated to the destruction of the British Empire and the construction of the American one. Whether the US has been happy with the acqusition is another story of course.

I believe that acquiring Empires are the final stage in the decline and fall of a Great Power.

Maggie

In what way is Gaza not a prison camp? Its certainly not a holiday camp.

thomasb

Good for Cameron! What is provocative about stating the truth? Gaza IS like a prison camp.

Ricky

It's not just that "Nickle" cannot spell but his racist and violent viewpoint is worth far less than his tag name. Once again, shameful and ignorant views are projected in the blogosphere as worthy of publication....yawn.

Liberty

Hamas has got away with pinning the blame for the conflict on Israel for far too long.

The overwhelming majority of those writing in the Western media play down or ignore the aim of Hamas to destroy Israel and kill all Jews before turning on the West. So too their theft of aid, subjugation of the Gazan population and impoverishment through commandeering of investment to build their military infrastructure in civilian homes, schools, hospitals and such like so when Israel is forced to defend itself it causes maximum civilian casualties and outrage forces Israel out before Hamas is beaten. Israel recently showed film of Hezbollah’s rockets, arms dumps and command centres in the centre of Lebanese villages but this is ignored by the world’s media.

When Israel is forced to act such as in the recent ‘aid’ convoy the the headline is 'Israel kills seven’ and such like whilst the fact that terrorists were hiding in an aid convoy, have previously hidden amongst civilians to kill Israelis, the soldiers lives were at risk and had to avoid kidnapping and the torture of their families for decades is virtually ignored.

It is time people gave up the white bad and brown/black good nonsense and dealt instead with the 13c ‘pillage and slaughter of all infidels’ mentality of extremist Arab terrorists for what it is.

Oded Farhi

Cameron's ignorance of historical facts is truly shameful - he obviously thinks reality is created in Notting Hill coffee bars.
The fact is that Turkey is becoming more fundamental (and yes, that is Islamic Fundamentalism - an extreme interpretation of Islam to be fair, but of Islam nevertheless) day by day, and that it would be cultural (and maybe economic) suicide to let Turkey join the EU. The fact that Cameron labels anyone with such concerns prejudiced seems to show that he is truly inculcated in the New Labour philosophy - if you can't win the argument , label them ...

Ben

Isn't Cameron referring to Hamas which is making Gaza into a prison camp?

TomTom

Erdogan is a Spellbinder. He demands Turkish-only schools in Germany and opposes integration. He interferes in Central Asia antagonising Russia. He flirts with Iran and asserts Turkey's will to lead its former colonies in the Middle East against whatever bogeys he can find.......and he gets Cameron to kiss his feet, he has the EU begging him to become the EU's largest state under QMV, and Obama promising EU economic largesse.

Chris lancashire

Cameron is dead right - the status quo isn't getting anyone anywhere - the Israelis, the Palestinians, Hamas and anybody else. The logjam needs to be broken and freeing Gaza, whilst a risk, is the step that Israel needs to take - whether they or Hamas are responsible for the present mess.

Freda Bothwell

David Cameron needs to be better informed.The media has been not just biased, but largely dishonest (the BBC being amongst the worst- ? a hidden agenda for the muslims?)) He needs to be careful. One mightier than he does not like being poked in the apple of His eye.
Suggest subscribing to HonestReporting for more balance.

Verityred

Full marks, Cameron is reading this situation well.

Hamas are appalling in many ways but Isreal's handling of Gaza is counter productive, often wrong, and has the unpleasant by product of storing up yet more trouble for the future.

The hard right headbangers have had their way for too long. Old Blair poodled up to Isreal. Cameron and this government have a far better approach to this.

The running sore, that is the Palestian problem, cannot be healed by walls and wire.

Ahmed Khan

I have just had a interesting meeting my very knowledge, mentor and friend who is a Rabbi. He tells me that what David Cameron said were merely words and Britain and America would always support Israel no matter what, that is until the Zionist state deliver’s the objectives laid out in 1948.

The main objective is that the Zionist’s must create a Untied State of Israel whose capital should be Baghdad or Tehran. Had this been achieved say 20 years ago than we would not have invaded Iran twice to enforce a regime change to protect vital oil supplies.

Victor Southern

We can ignore Vulture as that is just the voice of the Cameron-hating Daily Mail.

Nickle is a know-nothing. Israel can hardly revert to the pre-1947 status as that would mean to cease to exist. Cameron is being perfectly sensible when he indicates that it is necessary for some plain talking about Palestine.

Polarised arguments cannot substitute for plain debate and efforts to reach consensus. Blair, Obama et al will not achieve that in a thousand years. Blair is tainted by Iraq and by Cherie's antics over Israel. Obama carries the taint of the undying American support for Israel.

Perhaps it is time for a new broker to step in. Carrot and stick does the job for all.

Noa

I see logic and cohesence in Mr Cameron's pronouncements.

As Turks move to the UK and other EU member states to provide the necessary labour for a geriatric populus, their places can be temporarily filled by Palestinians, until they too acquire Turkish/EU citizenship and can become the next generation of bedpan attendents, cabbage cutters and Kensington welfare dependents.

Tarka the Rotter

Leaving aside for one moment the cozying up to Turkey (BIG mistake Mr C) can we please remember that it is not only Israel that has sealed its border with Gaza, but Egypt as well. Last time I looked, Egypt was a modlem state... hmmmm makes you think, doesn't it?

In2minds

The PM needs help with his PR

Stephen Rothbart

For those of you who still think that Gaza is a concentration camp or prison camp, or even Auschwitz, I suggest you visit the web-sites of the luxury hotel that has just opened, look at the Olympic size swimming pool, or brand new shopping center that have also just opened. Oh, you won't find these on the news media, but they do exist.

Not sure which prison camps have these facilities, or the well-stocked market stalls and packed beaches full of sun-bathers, but perhaps Cameron knows, as he is clearly so well-informed.

For any other information about what are actually the current conditions for most residents of Gaza, other than the guided tours organized by Hamas, you can visit Tomgrossmedia.com. It's not what he writes, (as a Jew, he obviously cannot be trusted to write the truth - well your truth anyway), it's the pictures he displays.

Or you can just continue to watch the BBC and read the Guardian and get your news in the same place that our dear Prime Minister clearly does.

TomTom

Reading further Cameron's comments makes it appear Obama gave him the script last week. It is fortunate that Germany and France do not want Turkey in the EU - at least their Citizens do not.

Cameron is starting to float above things - lightweight and lightheaded.

Crashing to earth will be shattering for him and his family, because very unstable and turbulent ties lie ahead in both Europe and the USA where political and financial elites have destroyed the legitimacy of the political system

Minnie Ovens

This follows on from his rant against the EC not playing fair with Turkey.
The question could well be, when has Turkey played fair with anyone else? This goes back to Gladstone's "bag and baggage", the first world war, KUT and the genocide of the Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians to the destruction of Smyrna and the Cyprus invasion.
The thought of 70 million Turk having free access to the UK may well fill Mr Cameron with joy but it will infuriate the British public whom he arrogantly dismisses as unimportant.
Now he really is even more arrogant and ignorant in his comments upon Gaza and Palestinians. History is obviously not his metier even at O level.
To understand why read Mr Con Coughlin's article in the Telegraph. Mr Coughlin is not usually right in most things but this time he is spot on.
Mr Cameron is beginning to be rather worrying.

Minnie Ovens

strapworld
July 27th, 2010 11:09am

About the only thing I can really say to such an imbecilic comment is that if you had said that in 1940, in London, I doubt if you would have remained in this world for long.

Percy

Dave's right. The fact that Mr Tony was made peace envoy for the quartet shows we weren't serious about a solution. If Dave has to break some eggs to make an omelette the so be it.

strapworld

Minnie, I love it when you talk dirty!

Alexander

Well the Northern London vote put their money on Labour - they should have hedged their bets!

The Tories are not beholden to Israeli interests and are able to speak honestly.

Jez

I think pushing Cameron into a small lockable from the outside room where Melanie Phillips is waiting for him would be really great, right now.

Jez

Anyway Peter H, what part of EU expansion rhetoric don't you like.

Or are you against the country's sell out?

If so, pack your bags and get out of the MSM.

se1man

yeah but I agree with Dave - the Gazza situation is very bothersome.

Tiberius

Ben has a point.

If you read Cameron's words as a Turkish diplomat or a Hamas terrorist, you won't feel you're getting a bye to round two of the talks.

Richard of York

Gazza is no prison camp, it's a hell hole which the people are living under the rule of Hamas.
There is no good reason why they are not happy prosperous people with all the benifits of the Med climate, tourism and viable industry. They chose to push on all the doors marked closed and refuse to go through the ones that are open already.
The whole world is ready to invest and help them if they would only turn to peace.
If it were a prison it would be one with no walls just a circle of men with guns and hoods keeping them in. They are hostages of Hamas and no-one else.

Vulture

Lawks and Lordy above - I never thought I'd write this sentence:

I agree with Dicke of York.

ndm

-- In a wider sense, this is indicative of the West's firmer attitude towards Israel in the wake of the flotilla incident.

This firmer attitude is long overdue given four decades of Western appeasement of Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people.

-- But Cameron should still be wary about using such provocative, emotive language.

Rubbish. The Israeli-led blockade of the Gaza Strip created a prison camp there - a bantustan if you will. In decrying as provocative and emotive a description of the reality in the Gaza Strip, Peter Hoskin shows he has little interest in ending what the ICRC recently described as a Crime Against Humanity.

-- The situation in Gaza is a two-sided coin: yes, humanitarian channels should be kept open (provided they serve the general, peaceful population), but it shouldn't be forgotten that - as I've written before - Hamas and their allies are as much to blame for the crisis in Gaza as anyone else.

Here, Peter Hoskin blemes the victim for the crimes of the oppressor.The people of Gaza bear no responsibility for the siege of Gaza for which Isreal and its allies are entirely responsible.

-- Obscuring that fact is neither helpful nor right.

Obscuring what fact is neither helpful nor right? The central fact whose obscurence is neither helpful nor right is the primacy of Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people. Their tragedy is that we have forgotten the idea of "never again" as we have once again allowed one people to oppress another people by our refusal to recognize their oppression and through our appeasement and apology for it.

Like so many other proud national movements before it the Zionist movement has been infested by the bigotry and racism of the settler.movement. Theirs is the most prominent and pervasive demonstration of neo-Nazism in the West today. That it is so is trivial to understand were the posisitions reversed and it was Palestinians settling in an Occupied Israeli Territory. I doubt Peter Hoskin would be describing condemnations of it as provocative and emotive.

Noa Zrk

RoY

Gulp, agreed! (Mops brow and takes deep breath).

TGF UKIP

Dave was just being what he is - a One Nation patrician Tory toff who are almost to a man arabist, anti-Israel and anti-American and especially anti-GOP and far more at home with US Democrats of social democrat compatability.

M. Rowley

I imagine that Melanie Phillips will have some strong words to say on this.

Yoshe

I imagine they'll be as thrilling as ever...

Cameron is correct, though he greatly oversimplifies. Essentially though, and it's good to be able to say this before his inevitable apology, it is an open air prison. The people inside of it cannot leave through the Erez Crossing into Israel.

Since the flotila they can get out through the Rafah Crossing into Egypt, but relatively few from Gaza's 1.5m population are able to as the Hamas-controlled police won't let Fatah voters or activists out and try and take around $5,000 from each person trying to leave.

William Boyd

I can't see that David Cameron is obscuring the issue here and I don't agree with comments that he's skipped another history lesson.

On the contrary a commentator like Con Coughlin of the DT writing today in his blog wilfully misrepresent history when he asserts Hamas gained comntrol of Gaza by force.

They didn't. They achieved an electoral majority by democaratic means but were not allowed to govern.

Obscuring that undeniable fact is also neither helpful nor right.

And I don't doubt that Melanie Phillips here at CH will also obscure the facts in her inevitable blog slamming Dave. The last time she wrote on the topic she confided that Gaza's GDP was not much short of that of Turkey's (actually it's about $850 billion short).

What will do she for an encore I wonder?

cityca

Cameron was right - Gaza is a prison camp and Hamas are the jailers, but I'm not sure that's what he meant to imply.

Speeches like this are the very reason that the Tories didn't do better in the election.

Clearly, Cameron will do and say anything that he perceives will give him advantage. He does not have a conviction in his body, except to get power and to keep it. Those it seems are his only true beliefs and the electorate knew it, but simply could not stomach any more of Brown or his crew.

We didn't vote for Cameron, we voted against Brown.

Derek

The prime minister's next attack should be on the Arab gaolers of those forced to live in the prisons known to the media as "refugee camps".

Ronnie

And indeed the Voice of Likud has responded, with her usual intemperance, on the basis that Israel's strategic interests are the only consideration that leaders of other contries should have.

Fortunately, few agree with her and so we can proceed in a more balanced manner that includes trying to prevent Turkey, a once secular state, going over to the dark side.

If a country's policy is to follow the western path and is not only rejected by western countries and institutions but has it's borders threatened (Kurdistan) by those same countries, we can't really be surprised when they become more difficult to deal with.

It interests me that, ideologically, we invaded Iraq in order to democratise it but when Turkey spends a lot of time and effort trying to join the institutions of the democratic west, we turn them away. Many now obsess about immigration but there are other issues and other, non-rejectionary, ways of dealing with a more migratory world.

Turkey is genuinely strategically important and it is far from stupid to understand that.

JONNY

What ever happened to Friend Vulture?
Where has he left his High-minded Oxford Trevor-Roperian intellect along with that Prestigious Oxford First of his?
Just a half bag of disconsolate peanuts scattered by this Chump of Oxford around the dunce's chair.
Hasn't the light of commonsense yet penetrated his foghorn of a brain to the hard fact that since Dunkirk left us with just one full-equippped division to face the might of thr Wehrmacht, we were hardly in the position to play'Senior Partner' to anyone?

Hugh

Cameron told the truth. He was spot on. Of course the Israeli PR industry in London is going to hit the roof - which makes it even more delicious.

Matt Pryor

Those who deride Israel on here, please watch this video of President Shimon Peres. He is PLEADING with you to understand Israel's position. If you refuse to watch it or watch it with cynicism please look into your own heart and consider your own motives and prejudices.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptrJ8NZtRiM

Philip, London

Infant mortality:

Gaza - 17.71:1000

Turkey - 24.84:1000

Life expectancy:

Gaza - 73.68

Turkey - 72.23

Global Ave. - 66.12

For more on 'Prison Camp' Gaza go here:

http://undhimmi.com/2010/05/31/gaza-do-these-people-look-like-they-need-an-aid-flotilla/

Augustus

Nickle - I'm surprised you didn't say that there weren't any Jews in Palestine before Israel was founded in 1948. And that Jews and Arabs lived in complete harmony and peace until Israel muddied the waters. And that it was the Jews who compelled the Arabs
to flee their homes and villages. And that only the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians have an historical affinity with the land of Judaea. And learn to spell
'Hamas' clever dick!

Matt Pryor

William Boyd: How can you possibly sit there and claim that Hamas have a democratic mandate to govern? For God's sake man they murdered and drove out their opposition! What kind of democratic process is that? What kind of mental gymnastics does it take for you to a) convince yourself and b) try to convince others that that is an acceptable form of democracy? Why do you busy yourself defending those people when the families of British Jews are in their firing line and the Palestinian Arabs that you so want to save are under their oppressive boot?

Where are your loyalties man? Where is your conscience?

martin

Comment on Nickles comment....If, as you suggest, the pre 47 borders are favorable to the Palestinian Arabs why did they constantly reject them? Check out numerous UN plans to grant them even more land than they could ever dream of now.

Ronnie

Matt Pryor.

I'm afraid that Hamas actually won an election, THEN the international refused to accept the result (wrong winners), THEN they murdered and drove out their opposition who, to be fair, were murdering them. Hardly an ideal situation but not one you should try to misrepresent.

I'm also afraid that Britain's strategic interests do not always equate to those of Israel and one hopes that a British Prime Minister would act accordingly. Loyalty to the State of Israel is a matter for the citizens of Israel, not for anyone else. I don't think that is unreasonable.

Augustus

If a population freely votes for a terrorist entity to represent it that doesn't somehow legitimize that entity in the eyes of the democratic non-terrorist world. But what it does do is change the norms and values under which that population should be regarded. And those are different from our hard-won democratic
norms and values.

Matt Pryor

Ronnie: Why are you even debating this? There were elections. The party with the most seats, which also happens to be a hardline Islamist terrorist organisation whose main policy was never-ending conflict with Israel, murdered and tortured their opposition after gaining power. The rest is details.

If you are honestly ignorant of the brutal nature of Hamas's rule in Gaza then please, go and read about it before seeing fit to comment and making even more of an idiot out of yourself. "Son of Hamas" by Mosab Hassan Yousef would be a good start.

How can enabling such a regime EVER be in Britain's "strategic interests"? Or do our strategic interests now involve siding with terrorists who are at war with our allies to make a few bucks out of Turkey? Is that what you're honestly saying we've sunk to as a nation?

And you have the temerity to question MY loyalties?

What planet are you on, seriously?

Ronnie

Stop being an ass Matt Pryor and try reading what people write before setting finger to key. A little thought wouldn't go amiss while you're at it.

I've not written in support of Hamas and I never will. I support Israel's right to exist and defend herself and have said so many times here.

There is a bigger picture here and Israel's needs do not fill the whole frame. Try and get your head round that. Your loyalties are your business and mine are certainly not.

Temerity? Grow up.

Matt Pryor

An ass Ronnie? I presume you're not British. Over here we say arse.

You support Israel's right to exist? That's very decent of you Ronny. I support your right to exist too. Isn't that bloody big of me?

Describing Hamas as democratically elected is writing in support of them. They weren't. They stole absolute power and continue to hang onto it through violence and intimidation.

Hamas is the problem in Gaza Ronnie, not Israel or the fact that Gazans don't get enough Cadburies biscuits. As long as western leaders continue to shy away from that fact and indulge Israel's detractors (including Erdogan) in their delusions to the contrary, the problem will not be resolved.

Ronnie

You presume a lot, Matt Pryor, that's probably why you have problems in basic comprehension. Your first paragraph at 12:10 pm makes you very much an ass.

I would describe you as someone who has access to a computer, does that mean I support you? Don't take too long to think about that.

Hamas is the largets of the current problems in Gaza but they are not there by some random mis-chance. Unfortunately you are not alone in pretending otherwise. As for Erdogan's antipathy towards Israel, that is a relatively recent event and did not happen by accident either. His anger points to his frustration.

I do understand that most of this probably flies over your head and that your loyalty to Likud will prevent you exploring a wider perspective.

Matt Pryor

You seem very confrontational Ronnie, which seems a little harsh - particularly as I just affirmed my belief in your right to exist!

As for Erdogan, I seem to recall he called Shimon Peres a liar and stormed out of the Davos conference shortly after Operation Cast Lead. That's not exactly very statesmanlike is it? Some would say somewhat over emotional? And not all that recent, either. And Olmert was in power then, so no blaming Likud or Netanyahu for that one.

Israel is fighting for its existence. Unlike you I have no illusions of Israel's invincibility - it is a small country with little natural defences, surrounded by a great deal of malevolence. I believe that Hamas and its ideology are extremely dangerous and need to be contained. The problem goes way beyond Gaza and I propose that it is failing to explore the wider perspective (and consequences).

Ronnie

I'm just responding to rude with rude, Matt Pryor. If you can calm down so can I.

I agree with your last paragragh completely. I do not agree with your comments on Erdogan and I do regard his outburts at Davos as being recent, in the broad scheme of things.

I urge you to check up on the background to Erdogan's behaviour. He had been working quite hard to broker talks between Israel and Syria at the time and he felt he was actually getting somewhere. He received no warning of Cast Lead and felt betrayed, justifiably in my opinion. Things have deteriorated since then.

I'm afraid that, on the diplomatic front, Israel has a problem in treating it's friends in a 'normal' manner. Preferring to play the 'standing alone victim' when it suits her. If you look at the military balance in the Gulf at the moment, including international forces, it is quite clearly in Israel's favour.

I do not pretend to think that there is any chance of negotiating a peace based on the two state solution as neither party really wants it. If they did they would initiate talks themselves rather than having third parties trying to ram it down their throats every few years.

Returning to my original point, if Turkey is alienated and turns eastward, the strategic balance is changed and not in our or Israel's favour in the longer term.

Now, I really don't think any of the above makes me a supporter of Hamas, do you?

Matt Pryor

Ronnie I apologise if I came across as rude, and I certainly didn't meant to put words in your mouth. Perhaps I'm guilty of being a bit overly defensive. And no, I do not think you are a Hamas supporter, but it winds me up when people try to whitewash them (which plenty of people do) - I'm not implying that you are.

I disagree with you about the chances of negotiating a two-state solution. The Arab league has just authorised Abbas to begin direct negotiations, which of course Netanyahu has been calling for for the last year. On that score I'm optimistic.

I'm also not convinced that validating Erdogan's anger and very un-statesmanlike behaviour towards Israel is the best course of action. His outburst at Davos and rhetoric following the flotilla affair was not helpful to the situation, and there are moderate voices in Turkey calling for calm and reconciliation - those are the voices that Britain should be reinforcing, in my view, particularly with elections round the corner, if we don't want to lose Turkey to the Syrian/Iranian bloc.

Overall though I've calmed down a bit about Cameron's comments in Turkey. I think what he said lacked balance and was dangerous, particularly at a time when the debate about the Israel-Arab conflict is still raging in Britain. But overall I think he has done well on this foreign tour, and has made me proud on more than one occasion. I just hope that he is able to listen to peoples' concerns.

Ronnie

Matt Pryor.

I'm just glad we are showing signs of having a foreign policy again. It makes a change. If we are to support allies then they should behave appropriately and not like spoiled children all the time, which is what I think we've put up with from both the US and Israel on many occassions. We do have our own interests and we should not simply do what is in the interests of others, even Israel.

Needy is not always deserving and it does no harm to make that clear. Nor does it do any harm to point out that there is always more than one solution to a problem; but the parties must want it. Do you think the parties are ready to solve the issue of Jerusalem, for example?

Matt Pryor

I don't think it's just a case of wanting a solution - the parties also have to believe in it and trust the other side not to exploit it for their own ends.

I can't imagine Israel's government surviving if they were to agree to partition Jerusalem. Perhaps agreeing to Jerusalem being a shared capital for both states would be a start, but even that carries significant risks. What happens for example if an emboldened Hamas takes control of the Palestinian Authority in 5 years time? Where would that leave Israel?

If Israel does take that step then they should be rewarded by Britain - for a start we could recognise Jerusalem as the Israeli capital instead of Tel Aviv and perhaps send the Queen there (for the first time ever). Arab countries should also reward Israel by lifting media and academic boycotts and cracking down on (widespread) anti-Semitism. The latter won't happen without significant pressure from the West.

Ronnie

I'd like to put it another way Matt. Rather than Israel being 'rewarded', like a dysfunctional child, how about normal and mutually beneficial relations being restored to and by all concerned.

In some way Israel is treated like a benefit-seeker, someone in therapy, instead of the sovereign nation she is. I think it would help if we could break out of that kind of psychology.

The 'victim' should take up her bed and walk, as it were. Not easy with so many enemies around trying to stunt her growth.

gareth

Poor Israel - the knives are being sharpened again. The last 10 years has seen a real shift in attitudes. It seems to be picking up pace too!

I can see why they are not engaging the public "debate" so much now, they've seen where it always ends.
I think they realise that whatever they say or do the European elites are against them at best and actually hate them at worst and I think reading many posts here that strange, dark, devious ages old hatred of this remarkable people has infected even the Land of Hope and Glory.
I am ashamed.

Matt Pryor

Yep fair point, perhaps "reward" is a bit patronizing. To be honest I have trouble understanding the FCO's attitude towards Israel, I think some of them still think we have the Mandate.

Anyway, it's Friday afternoon and the whole thing is making my head hurt. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Have a nice weekend.

Thanks again Melanie for a good article and a good debate.

Matt Pryor

Peter... sorry.