Boris: take two

Ethan Hurlington

apparently, there is going to be a tube strike on the 28th for 48 hours... how is that going to impact the election? Boris will be able to really shout about his plan to have the agreement to stop the RMT from striking...

Oscar Miller

Much better than the last one. I liked it a lot. Came across as authentically Boris with a great sense of drive and enthusiasm. Down to earth - but with a good dash of emotion. A winner I'd say.

Perry

Go for it Boris - GO!!

THX1138

Peter- C'mon what's wrong with my Boris post this time?

THX1138

I loved the bus driver who says "what like about you (Boris) Is you don't tell no lies" Hmm

Shall we count them:

Sacked from The Times for lying; sacked by Michael Howard for lying: caught out lying about the cost of the buses & perhaps worst of all lying to his wife.

As for the tosh after that about being concerned about the safety of London children, if he is so concerned why re phase the pedestrian traffic lights in favour of drivers & oppose 20 mph zones? How many additional children will maimed or killed on the streets of London for the want of extra 2 secs on a traffic light or hit by a car doing 30 mph?

The more I see of Boris the more I think cynical chancer. London deserves better from the Tories.

Pete Hoskin

THX1138 (@ 4:54): You guessed it! Your amended post is up now.

THX1138

Peter- Thks read the Janet Street Porter interview with Boris in Marie Claire. Then you might have let my original post through.

salieri

Wow. I always thought of Eddie Mayr as balanced and courteous but no longer, after his incredibly offensive 'interview' with BJ on "PM" just now. Why, I wonder, did he seem so uninterested in any of the answers - even the ones he allowed Johnson to finish ? Did they not match his script, perhaps? This is bound to set off more cries of bias about the BBC. Whether that's true or not, this was just one prolonged sneer which disgraced the Beeb.

Max Kaye

THX1138 asks: "How many additional children will maimed or killed on the streets of London for the want of extra 2 secs on a traffic light or hit by a car doing 30 mph?"

Answer: Probably none. His argument is reminiscent of the 'fact' that 100,000 marine animals and 1,000,000 birds per annum are killed or choked to death by plastic bags.

How many children have really been killed or maimed just because of accidents with cars traveling at 30 mph rather than 20 mph? [Real documented facts please: Not statistics.]

Sure driving safely at speed can be more dangerous, but bad driving at any speed can be lethal. A bad and/or dangerous driver is a danger whether driving at 10, 20, 30 or 60 mph. Conversely, careful and good drivers remain alert and vigilant at any reasonable speed. (reasonable means just - that based on local road conditions, not dogma).

Max Kaye

Apologies. My above hyperlink does not work. I meant to refer readers to:
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3508263.ece

salieri

Oh, and THX, do spare us the claptrap about saving lives at 20 mph or 2 seconds extra at the lights. The answer to your rhetorical question is: 'probably none at all', but it's not one you want to hear. Why not be true to your cause and advocate the abolition of all motor traffic? Just think how many lives that might save... But then you would have to find some other 'safety issue' to whinge about.

And btw, BJ was not sacked for lying by Michael Howard. He was sacked for being political incorrect and saying what he actually thought about Liverpudlian sentimentality.

Oscar Miller

Salieri - I heard that Eddie Mair interview and you are right it was a disgrace. The BBC is biased. But - Boris outsmarted Eddie. He sidestepped the traps, he sounded appropriately serious and convincing and came out the winner. I really hope Londoners get a chance to find out what a truly great mayor Boris will be. Go Boris!

THX1138

Max & Salieri- Of course you kill or maim more children if hit you them harder because you are travelling faster and how can giving people less time to cross the road be a good thing I really don't see that is contentious. Except In Speccie land.

Max- Did you really mean to say "Sure driving safely at speed can be more dangerous" not sure that makes any sense and what is has to do with plastic bags.

Salieri- Actually BJ was sacked by Michael Howard for lying to him about his affair with Spectator columnist Petronella Wyatt. Nothing to with Liverpool.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4010293.stm

How do you assume to know my cause and what I want to hear. I have two cars actually and two children who have to walk the streets of London and I want to give them the best possible chance against the likes of you.

Simon Orr

"..two children who have to walk the streets of London and I want to give them the best possible chance against the likes of you."

Thats a disgusting comment THX. Implying that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't care about the lives of children is ridiculous. They asked for proof that there would be a significant difference in road accident mortalities if there was a change in the speed limit. You provided none. There is no need for personal attacks of that nature. I suggest you remove yourself from public debate until you learn to respect those who disagree with you.

Fergus Pickering

THX whateveritis. Your argument about speed limits is absurd as you must know. If you stick a man with a flag in front of every car then there will be no accidents at all caused by excessive speed. There is always a trade-off between convenience and safety. Re Boris's lies. Lying about your affairs is always de rigeur. Having them in the first place is the fault. Boris is truthful where the truth is appropriate which is not always. I assume your children know this and I am sure they lie like troopers when it is politic to do so. If they don't then they are quite unlike any children I have met.

Max Kaye

THX1138: I missed out a comma. It should have read "Sure, driving safely at speed can be more dangerous..."

The connection to 'plastic bags' is that often of what we assume to know as a 'fact' is, in fact, erroneous.

Sean

Eddie Mair sounded as if he was trying to provoke Boris into losing his temper.
Boris, I thought, handled it extremely well.

THX1138

This is getting good.

I'm off to the Arsenal will be back to respond to all your ridiculous comments later.

salieri

THX – hope you enjoyed the footie and I’m glad you’re able to afford it. A couple of thoughts for your return.

You’re right to correct me on the immediate cause for BJ’s sacking by Michael Howard, but I’m convinced it would not have happened but for his recent Liverpool ‘gaffe’ (qv = saying what he really thought). And no, I don’t approve of adultery either – though it might be interesting to debate its moral equivalence with going around siring a string of bastards.

Point 2: we can all take good-natured abuse but “the likes of you” is a bit desperate, isn’t it? I have 2 young children, too, and they walk to school whenever possible. They have to cross two major highways. They have more than enough time to cross and they are helped by a little green man appearing – have you seen one of those? – when it’s time to do so. The traffic barely moves anyway because of all the road-works which are perpetually begun but never completed. I personally think their safety would probably be enhanced if other parents drove cars instead of armoured trucks, which can kill at any speed at all, but that doesn’t mean I would abolish them or fine them punitively.

Point 3: the real danger they and we face in London is grown-up imbeciles who zoom along the pavements on their bicycles. They all wear silly pixie hats for the own safety but couldn’t give a toss for anyone else’s. I call them ‘cyclopaths’. Any thoughts on how BJ (cyclist and re-cyclist) should deal with a real problem like that?

THX1138

Salieri- Your right I went overboard my blood was up I apologise.

Don't you think bastards sounds a bit 19th century and their is no moral equivalence between adultery and having a child when you aren't married. One is the breaking the most important promise people will make in their lives and the other is a simple decision to have children when you aren't married.

I really don't think that I need to spend out hours googling to find that reducing speeds reduces both accidents and their severity especially in the crowded streets of north London.

I wonder if little green men are in fact the answer, their is increasing research that children trust the flashing green man a little too much and rush into the road when the green man flahes without looking at the traffic. Old style zebra crossing are the answer, pedestrians look the driver in the eye and a connection and trust is made and they don't interrupt traffic if know one is crossing.

Good article about this from Janice Turner in The Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/janice_turner/article3291877.ece

Unsurprisingly I agree that urban assault vehicles are a bad idea I think they need to be taxed out of existence on the streets of London perhaps a £25 charge to drive them in central is a good idea.

Again agree about cyclists on pavements and Boris and Dave both have form on this one. Enforcement of the law would be a good idea, I was once fined £25 and a day in court for cycling on the pavement (my Mum made go to court).

I still stick to the point that I'm forced to vote for Ken as no other party has put up a serious candidate (maybe Paddick but I can vote LibDem). Boris is a cynical chancer and I'm not convinced he wants to win either.

I would loved to have voted for Michael Portillo for Instance I think he would have made a superb Mayor of my great city.

Fergus Pickering

Boris is a chancer. Absolutely. So is Ken. So was Blair (in bloody soades), So were Churchill and Disraeli, two of my favourite Prime Ministers. don't get the cynical though oris it just an all purpose word that means 'nasty'? Personally I would like a bit of cynicism in my politicians. One of the man dreadful things about Brown is his ghastly earnestness. 'Nothing amatters much. Most things don't matter at all'. Now THAT's cynicism - from A.J. Balfour. Doesn't sound like Boris at all. Nothing he's ever said sounds cynical to me. Positively bursting with keenness and esprit de corps I should have said.

THX1138

Fergus- If Boris isn't cynical "Nothing he's ever said sounds cynical to me" earlier you say "I would like a bit of cynicism in my politicians" does that mean he's the wrong man for you?

salieri

Touché, Fergus. Cynicism in politics is a two-edged sword. Foils and bludgeons are safer.

And THX, thanks for a gracious response.

James J

The focus on speed is because it is easy and earns money via camera enforcement.
Christopher Booker and Richard North give the following information in their excellent book:’Scared to Death, from BSE to Global Warming: why scares are costing us the Earth’
In 30-40mph areas the average speed a car is travelling in an accident involving a pedestrian is 11mph.There is a fatality in only 1.5 % of these accidents.
Only 4.5% of accidents are recorded as due to excessive speed.

THX1138

Some good news from today's Sunday Times

"Mayoral race too close to call
as Boris Johnson sees poll lead wither"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3779912.ece

All the recent polls trending against Boris. Also bad news for Boris that on all the agreed issues effecting the election Housing, Transport, Strong Leadership etc Ken has a commanding lead. Boris does lead on crime but 31% of respondents would never vote for him because he is not regarded as serious. A decent Tory candidate would not have had this issue.

My money is on Ken, all the experts seem to agree that a good turnout helps Ken. London is a Labour city and Labour has the organisation on the ground to get the vote out.

Even with the help of the disgraceful campaign waged by The Evening Standard it would appear that the more Londoner's see of Boris the more they see things they don't like.

Whatever candidate you want to win this is the most exciting race in years.

THX1138

James J-Well lets all drive around London as fast as we like then.

See what the death rates look like then.

James J

London was only a Labour City while they had bedrock of white working class voters. They no longer have them. This group will abstain in large numbers and those that vote will be split between the BNP and Labour.

James J

THX1138, or deal with some of the real causes of traffic accidents.
How fast can you drive in London? Average speed is probably slower than when horse drawn carriages were in use.

Fergus Pickering

a. like a bit of cynicism in my politicians
b. Boris isn't cynical
Does that mean I won't be voting for Boris then? No of course it doesn't. I don't like Cameron's haircut but you can't have ALL that you want. I won't be voting for Bois because I don't live in London

THX1138

Fergus -I'm not sure that their is much equivalence between a politicians haircuts & political cynicism or were you being cynical?

I think cynicism is very important in politics just look at the choice facing the voters in the Pennsylvania primary a classic battle between cynicism & hope. I wish we had such a clear choice in London.

Did I mentioned who you were voting for, I wouldn't presume.

Tobias P

James J - "Only 4.5% of accidents are recorded as due to excessive speed." Did you really mean to say that? Even if your statistic is even-handed then that is enough for me. To prevent 4.5% of accidents is to save many lives, so obviously well worth doing.

David Short

Anyway, who are all these 'kids' that run in front of cars driving at any speed?

I don't think I've ever come close to a child on any road in 30 years of driving.

Closest encounter I've ever had was a dog that ran out from behind a tree in front of me in north London. I was able to stop in time only to bump it a little bit and it ran off.

If any 'kids' run out in front of cars at 30mph, I'm sure they're more likely to do it at 20mph, thinking they've got more time to avoid the oncoming car.

The only reason these local govt people want 20mph is they know it's almost impossible to keep to it and keep your eyes on the road (for parentless 'kids' on the street) rather than the speedo.

More money from fines for their risk-free salaries and pampered pensions.

D Short

THX 'their' is the plural possessive pronoun. You're using it when you should use 'there'.

All the illiteracy we see in the
Spectator after the new brutish management sacked the subs is obviously catching.

James J

Tobias P, life is a risky business and we need to be sensible about the consequences of trying to make it virtually risk free. People die after falling getting out of baths. On the ‘If it saves one life’ theory we would bring in compulsory crash helmets to be worn by all bathers. People get struck by lightening on golf courses, should we ban it? We have the safest roads in Europe. By concentrating on speed ,because it is easy and profitable, our roads will get more dangerous because the other causes of accidents are being ignored.

THX1138

David- Thanks for correcting my English It's a rush to get your point out with the Kids are screaming to watch Doctor Who on the Sky +

In my part of North London we have many sorry looking wilting bunches of flowers attached to lampposts, street signs & railings a sad testament to death on the roads. The Ham & High & Camden New Journal is full of dreadful stories of pedestrians young & old run down on the streets. I drive a lot through London work school run etc & least three times in the last year I have seen people in the road covered by blankets & concerned para medics doing their thing. In fact only a few weeks ago I watched the air ambulance land in Archway to take some poor soul off to the Homerton (better chance of survival in their major trauma section than A&E at The Whittington next door I was told).

I don't want to be a kill joy but I do believe that we need to give a better chance to pedestrians young and old and slowing the traffic down and giving them more time to cross the road can only help. Who is in that much of a hurry?

Blaming kids for this death toll is rather pathetic don't you think?

James J

Slowing traffic also slows emergency vehicles, which leads to deaths that could have been prevented. The problem is much of this debate relies on government statistics, which nowadays have the same credibility as Soviet Tractor production ones had under Stalin.

Tobias P

I was disappointed to read this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7351103.stm
as I did quite like Brian Paddick. However, here he appears to be making a personal attack on Livingstone in a desperate attempt to get publicity, but they are more unfounded and unfair attacks levelled at Ken.
I personally cannot understand why people dislike Ken; he has made London greener, more pluralistic, more economically successful and (whatever Boris says) has cut crime. Also, he is a charasmatic man who is not afraid to speak his mind however un-PC it is. That is epitomised in his defying Labour on amnesty and even spending some time as an Independent in protest against New Labour.

David Short

I'm not sure the right word is pathetic and I'm not sure I'm blaming the 'kids'.

I'd like to see some stats about London road deaths and the cause given before I could draw any conclusions.

I hardly ever drive in London now. I use a bicycle. If I really need a car, I hire one. Getting around in London in a car is a nightmare, and trying to park it anywhere at all is an even worse one.

The last time I hired a car in London, I got a ticket on a Sunday afternoon after parking a car on a side street in Golders Green for ten minutes. The same weekend I was clamped in my own apartment complex because an Asda parking ticket had slipped down covering my resident's pass. Parking, parking, parking. I spent almost four times as much on parking fines that weekend as the hire car cost!

I think people who drive in London on a daily basis (as it appears THX does) are completely mad. They are also angry because of the paradox of having their own transport but not getting anywhere.

I often have near misses because of impatient drivers and was hit just the other day by someone backing up on a pelican crossing after he had gone through it on red.

I can't see how anyone can genuinely be concerned about 'kids' and pedestrians being mown down if they're using their cars willy-nilly every day for work and 'school runs'.

They are part of the problem, not the solution.

THX1138

David Short- Your right driving in LDN is a daily chore I have however am not mad or angry I drive slowly & listen to a lot of music which is very important to me I treat it as down time in a hectic schedule.

I think school runners get a bad press what is the difference between someone on the school run and someone commuting to work, both taking up the road, just one is a soft target is all.

Agree again about parking very draconian but as you don't have a car you are the beneficiary of reduced council tax thanks to parking permits fines etc going into council coffers.

Again agree People get angry in cars because they have been sold a dream by the ad men of freedom which isn't delivered and can't be delivered . They want that dream, so the car lobby pushes government harder to deliver the dream they were promised in the ad's. The more this dream slips through their fingers the angrier they all seem to get.

Sounded like it was the kids fault not drivers can we waive the stats I really don't have the energy for wading around on the ROSPA or DofT website but I'm sure it's all there.

On your last point I also agree but life isn't always as we want it but as I said earlier I REALLY do drive slowly & patiently. I nearly ran over a child rushing into the street it was awful I was so shaken up I got out of the car and walked home and was sick in the street.

What howlers have I committed this time?

D Short

I very much doubt if not owning a car has any discernible effect whatsoever on the council tax in my area - my council is Tower Hamlets because I'm in Docklands.

Councils, particularly in run-down areas such as Tower Hamlets, do not run their budgets on a tight purse strings basis. They look at parking permit fees and parking fines as a way of boosting expenditure, not pruning its council tax levels.

By choosing not to run a car unnecessarily, I also keep pollution down.

That choice should be open to more people. However, if you don't own a car of your own, you cannot get a council parking permit, so anyone with a hire car runs a higher (no pun intended) risk of parking fines - as indeed I incurred one last time I had a hire car.

If I did not have a private parking space (which cost £10,000 on top of the price of the flat I live in), I would not be able to choose this ecologically sound method of motoring.

We have some social housing on the apartment complex, and every morning I see children from there getting to school perfectly well, either on their own if old enough or accompanied on foot to the DLR or all the way on foot if not.

If people do not have a car, or can't afford one, there is no 'school run'.

There was no 'school run' when I was a kid in the North East.

The 'school run' is a middle class, hypocritical, polluting, congesting, cop out. We all know how the traffic runs much more smoothly and quickly in the school holidays.

And to drive a car daily and precisely at the times when excited kids are running around with their friends at the same time as worrying about kids being run over is...well....erm...

THX1138

David -This debate is probably running out of steam but I do actually think that your right especially about the school run and not owning car but as I say sometimes life is not always simple. My child attends a specialist school in South LDN & we live in North LDN realistically I have to drive it.

But I wonder how much easier the traffic would flow everyday if we removed the people that needlessly drive into central LDN from outside who make life more difficult for people who actually live in the city. Have you ever seen the East bound A40/M4 in the morning millions of them streaming into town and then having the gall to moan about the traffic; the cost and difficulty of parking and the CC.

You might be right about the council tax in Tower Hamlets but I bet that Westminster Council tax is kept lower than I otherwise would be by the £65M a Tory council raised from the motorist in 2005/2006.

Have you tried car clubs I use them all the time http://www.streetcar.co.uk