Osborne emerges from the shadows

Chris lancashire

Truly awful in government, abysmal in opposition. New Labour seems to think that opposition is solely shouting down any and every Coalition policy. Reasoned debate and agreement on some of the more obvious points is actually what it's about.

normanc

Labour has time on their side, they can play the waiting game. Better to keep their powder dry, let the cuts actually happen and watch for any cracks appearing in the coaltion.

No need for them to play Fantasy Government laying out the cuts they would make were they still in government.

They have left Osborne a rum hand to play with no real appetite for a significant downsizing of government, taxes already dangerously high and interest repayments continuing to grow for at least 5 years, possibly more if we don't sustain growth, it's going to be a thankless 5 years.

Iconoclast

So the madness of King George returns, a nice touch that he's slowed the speech rate and lowered it by a tone, the wonders of 'elechushun' coaching eh? even for Eton boys...

Nice to see him come back with a bit of poor bashing on R4, it's now firmly glued into the Tory narrative; "hard working people, leaving at 7 o'clock in the morning, don't want to fund those who've got their curtains closed..." This from a man who was no c.v. and no working track record (other than organising the Bullingdon's night out kitty)..and yet he's making swingeing decisions on the future of the worlds' 6th largest and one of the most diverse and dynamic economies...madness..

The blame for the economic issues and the over-egged deficit is now being permanently directed at the welfare bill; not the £1trillion to prop up the banking system, not the £150bl wasted on the invasions of Iraq and Afghan and the subsequent misery (on all sides), not the £40bl loop holes the wealthy elite take advantage of each year, not Trident..it's all about welfare..apparently

And yet still no mention of how the 5.2 million adults on out of work benefits will 'share' the 400K (mainly part time/short term contract *jobs*) currently available..

The fact is the Tory ideology doesn't allow for that type of deep thinking, quite simply the undeserving poor deserve their lot in life, why should you and the priviliged elite apologise for your birth rights eh Gideon?

factchecker

You're entitled to you prejudices, iconoclast, but at least make them accurate. Osborne was at St Pauls.

AlexK

Recent government figures show that the cost to the UK of the Iraq/Afghan wars so far is just over £20bn.

Fox in a box

Iconoclast,

oh how witty you are!

And studiously eshewing dogma yourself, I see. How very progressive.

jay mason

Dear Iconclast,

It is the undeserving poor that require to grow up, I get to work at 7.00 every day I am there till 17:30 I earn average wage I am completely fed up when I see people who have never worked sat outside the pub when I arrive home. I have had to reinvent my work several times form Soldier to Engineer to Transport Manager for a firm of builders merchants in order to stay in work. We have 2 children and we waited until we could afford to look after them without recourse to the state. Everyone bleats about rights it's time they looked at responsibilities. I am sick of paying through the nose to support an overblown welfare bill which is most likely 50% won't work rather than can't work

Adro

@Factcheck

Iconoclast is quite clearly a Labour troll in the Richard of York vein, and also an idiot. Then again, Labour ideology isn't really compatible with intelligent thought now, is it.

Simon Stephenson

Iconoclast : 9.51am

Yet another entry on the long list of Labour supporters who have made the mistake in print of asserting that Mr Osborne was educated at Eton. He wasn't, he was at St Paul's.

Or maybe it's not a mistake? Perhaps the Victoria Street propaganda machine has dictated that every Conservative politician without a regional accent is to be described as having been to Eton, irrespective of his actual education, because an Eton linkage is that much more powerful in the false portrayal of the Conservatives acting only in class interests?

justathought

@Iconoclast

Are you living in the past?. Surely the deficit is what it is and the how and why we got to that point is academic?. Now we need to move on and work to resolve the deficit, by a combination of future investment and cuts.

I agree that the welfare budget should be trimmed and that a new social contract is necessary between the recipients of benefits and the tax payer. It is not only economically necessary but a moral imperative that generations of unemployed young fit people are not allowed to languish on the dole.We owe it to them and society that they accept that in contributing to society that they benefit themselves also.

The one thing I do agree with is that the Trident £100 bn spending should indeed be part of the defense budget and that if at all feasible it should be postponed given the dire state of the public finances that have been inherited.

I do not know what budget it comes out of but if the government is subsidising faith schools then that should stop.I am quite happy to pay my taxes but not to support indirectly this or that religion, that is a personal choice for those of each faith to do.I will watch Richard Dawkins tomorrow night at 9pm on More 4 to see what he has to say about this .

Richard of York

Surely Oik can get his figures right?
The difference between the Labour £39bn cuts and the Tory £63bn is ideological.
Where did the figure of £41bn that Oik is using come from.
This govt has a very poor grasp on stats and calculations.

Nicholas

Dear Jay Mason

If you are arriving at work at 0700 and staying there until 1730 on your own volition you need to reappraise your work life balance. If it is at your employer's behest you need to re-appraise their policy towards the work life balance of their employees.

Until Britain tackles its ridiculous enfatuation with the extremes of workaholicalism and idleness we will continue to be a country that is not very pleasant to endure. Claiming a 10.5 hours working day should not be a matter of pride. The quality of output is not dependent upon the hours worked as any encounter with one of the big British service providers will prove. But as with all things British quantity seems to have romped ahead of quality.

I'd leave this miserable, po-faced, workaholic, puritan shithole in a flash if I wasn't so old and useless. And I tend to agree with Iconcoclast. Not all the long term unemployed want to be or enjoy the experience and there are much greater amounts of money being wasted by government. Osborne's remarks were superficial and polarising.

Iconoclast

@ Justathought and others; The "deficit" is simple, convenient, political, red-herring hyperbole..The structural debt is in fact the biggest issue and cutting welfare to the bone will make very little indent on that grossly out of control figure.

The reason for the constant attacks on the poor, or the welfare bill, through the Daily Hate (and sadly here) is that it's an unmissable immobile short term memory loss target; "Blame the unemployed for the country's ills Gideon, keep saying it often enough and they'll buy into the rhetoric and forget that the real culprits were in fact the banks..."

What do you all think the unemployed do with their *welfare cheques*, buy krugerrands and pandas, fly Easy Jet to Geneva and exchange it into Swiss francs, or pay for food and shelter? Please don't tell me you believe that "they" buy 42" plasma tellies etc..etc...

99% of welfare money doled out is re-cycled back into the economy, particularly local economies. These same local economies will be further devestated if the welfare bill is slashed and burned.

Fascinating to note that no-one has a solution for the 5.2ml on out of work benefits chasing 400K mainly low paid/part time jobs. And let's not forget that even under the extreme largesse and hubris of the Nu Lab experiment only 1 mil extra jobs were created and 975,000 of those went to the low paid immigrant labour force..

1.5ml have lost their jobs since the onset of The Great Recession in 2008, were these the lazy and or feckless so many constantly 'label' and target, or are they hard working "doing the right thing" casualties of the casino economics favoured by our global leaders?

Guys I'm a political agnostic, as a system *it* has failed, so there's no tribalism or deeply wedded and misplaced ideological loyalty from my corner..However, there is no carrot, just a big stick. In this economic climate job creation should be the paramount responsibility and obsession, and yet in the first hundred days not one Minister has fleshed out any policy regarding mass job opportunities. I can give you 2 today; mass home building and creating a world class rail network - there's 1 million worthwhile jobs right there..

BTW, love the rallying defence of Gideon to point out my mistake, works better than beating out the Grouse on the 12th eh chaps? ;-)

Can anyone also point out his qualifications to run the 6th largest economy on the planet? Oh I dunno... a first in maths and/or economcis, followed by ten years heading up an accountancy/strategy firm such as Accenture? Nope..didn't think so..Unbeleivable that politics and our government has redressed so much..

toni

The Tories asking questions of the opposition yet again? Sigh. Really, do get a grip, and get on with the job George, unless apart from seducing the Libs to abjectly concur with your slash and burn you think Labour will fall into that trap too?
As has joyfully already been pointed out, no-one is interested in what Labour thinks about anything right now, the exception being the desperate Osborne seeking validation, and as Tom Harris quite rightly says, and he won’t mind my quoting him:

“But we have no intention of making political history by being the first ever Opposition to detail hypothetical cuts which we're no longer in a position to implement, just weeks after we lost office. But by all means, keep on asking - it's fun!”

Labour is in opposition, and you know from a bitter and long held experience what that entails – lots of opposing!

Simon Stephenson

justathought : 11.03am

"I agree that the welfare budget should be trimmed and that a new social contract is necessary between the recipients of benefits and the tax payer. It is not only economically necessary but a moral imperative that generations of unemployed young fit people are not allowed to languish on the dole.We owe it to them and society that they accept that in contributing to society that they benefit themselves also."

I don't think many would disagree with this sentiment, but our national politics is not being well-served by an argument where the two sides are not addressing each others assertions. For me, Labour should be attacking the effectiveness of the government policy, not harping on about how it is no more than the well-off looking after themselves. Why aren't Labour challenging the etiology that seems to conclude that the problems of Merthyr Tydfil or Sunderland are no different from those of Basildon or Croydon?

Is tough love really going to make things better in the economically depressed regions of the country? Or is it more likely to make it worse? These are the questions Labour should be asking. This is the argument that will re-energise those who question the correctness of the level of free-will assumed by advocates of the market capitalist model. What is the best way to spark an enthusiasm for creative activity in communities which have lived so long without any?

Paddy

Labour were useless in Office and are now useless in opposition.

They are in total denial that they wrecked the economy - not the bankers. Most sensible people know this.

They are the nasty selfish party who only think about themselves. Just look at Prescott on Newsnight. If anyone has taken all he can it is surely him.

Labour are now an irrelevance.

Scott

Iconoclast,
you mention that our ecomony is the 6th largest, well wasn't it the 4th before Gordon Brown arrived on the scene. Proof of the ecomonic destruction overseen by Brown. Your words are worthless

yank

Yes, Labor's recalcitrance is reckless. Nothing good will come of it, for anybody, including them, but least of all for the country.

A principled opposition is a necessity. Absent this, government goes to the dogs, and we all suffer.

If you look over here, you'll find that the Left went completely bonkers after Bush won in 2000. They even developed a clinical diagnosis for it: "Bush Derangement Syndrome".

Following the previous 20 years of mostly divided government, with mostly principled opposition all around (ignore the headlines and watch what they do, not what they say), we suddenly had a controlling party with NO principled opposition, as the opposition had gone over the edge intellectually and psychologically.

What's to keep the other guy in check, if not the opposition? Nothing, and they have the field, and will inevitably screw up. And they are not obligated to engage intellectually, because their opposition has left that field. They can focus solely on tactical electoral politics, which is just deadly for the country, long term. They will screw up.

So guess what? When they inevitably screw up, we're left with the choice of either of the screw-ups or the screwballs.

Take a look at it, and tell us how you like it. We don't seem to like it much, it appears.

Iconoclast

And what exactly is this "tough love" for those in receipt of welfare? Do you simply want your sickening, visible pound of flesh?

The economy has been hollowed out in order to save the banksters and the wealthy elite, this bastard/hybrid govt are now hell bent on propping up the housing market and other asset values for the singular benefit of their core vote - the baby boomers and you want those in receipt of benefits, with no hope of jobs, in a hopeless economy to do what exactly; clean public toilets for free, pick up litter, mow the grass on kerbsides wearing donkey jackets rejoicing with the words "dolite scum" emblazoned on the back?

Again, I ask the question, where does the 5.2 million jobs come from in order to have full employment and dignity for all adults..? Answer; it won't emerge, the Tories have no intention of creating jobs, or sharing out the pain..blame is the new game; blame the previous administration, blame the poor for their lack of foresight in being born into under priviliged families and environments...

Iconoclast

Scott, er...no you're wrong, and being a bit of a silly billy now aren't you? Bless.. Was Brown supposed to somehow surpress the growth of China, or other bric nations or Europe? Dear oh dear...

GDS

Iconoclast,

it was the world's 4th largest economy before Gordon Brown got hold of it!! Remind me exactly what his qualifications for the job were please.

Tit!

Iconoclast

GDS, it's a shame you can't answer or reasonably debate the various points I've made, do we excuse it on your youth or general ignorance?

To insist that Brown caused the UK to 'slip' 2 places is plainly wrong, infantile and totally irrelevant. Are medals given out, does the UK get to stand on a podium...er..what was your point again?

Simon Stephenson

Iconoclast : 2.06pm

As I commented earlier, not only will the class-war approach prove to be totally fruitless in changing minds, but also it takes the spotlight away from the real questions about the Duncan Smith welfare policy. Is it based on a correct reading of why there are wastelands of inactivity juxtaposed with thriving hubs of enterprise? Are we really able to net-improve this situation by addressing individual incentives, rather than by focusing on the social environments in which these individuals live? Is full employment something that post-industrial capitalism is unable to deliver? Have today's winners so successfully gamed yesterday's pro-social regulations that once again we have 90% of society gaining virtually nothing from human progress?

Try attacking your opponents because they've got it wrong, not because they're uncaring.

Paddy

Iconlast: This 'bastard/hybrid' Govt.

Why do you say that?

This Govt has only just got into power. How do you know this?

You might be pleasantly surprised at how well they perform.

Why do you say that all the tories are uncaring people?

I think we have all discovered that labour are the 'uncaring' party.

They have been shown to be incompetent, nasty, lying charlatans.

Why do you post such vitriolic hate on here.

I think you are ignorant to anyone else's point of view.

The majority of people who post on here believe it was Brown's fault that we are in the mess we are in.

I am afraid this is a fact and no amount of vitriol from you will change that fact.

Perhaps you would be best posting on labourlist - where I am sure they will hold you in awe.

Scott Mills

it was the 4th largest, and hell, we have even been overtaken by Italy. Check it out and see who is the tit... Gordon Brown, Destroyer of Nations. China has got bigger than that, but at least they are in ecomonically better shape than we are, due to your lord and master Gordon Brown. How can you defend that man is beyond me.

Holly ......

Osbourn,the Conservatives & the rich eh?
Nasty,mean,heartless bar stewards.
Unlike the caring sharing Labour party,the left & the poor.
Who in society hounds mothers of disabled children to such an extent they feel their only way out is to set fire to themselves?
Who in society allow their boyfriends to snap their baby's spine?
Who in Labour's caring,kind,compassionate society allowed the health/social services to appear to be doing their jobs,while all the time they where just box ticking?
The poor,Labour & the left have done a lot more to damage the economy and society than the Conservatives,Osbourn & the rich will ever do.
Some folks have an upside down view on what is bad for a country.
So far all I have seen from the coalition is a whole lot of wasteful crap cutting.
Once people realise they will no longer get spoon fed everything they want,as oppose to need,they will buck their ideas up...just like I did in 1979...Before Maggie,my view was,we had sod all when growing up,what has this country ever given me,Why should I work? I point blank refused!
Dole money was £9 p/wk & I had to give mum £7.I got a job paying £28pwk and I have never looked back..There is NOTHING more rewarding than going to work to pay for your 'stuff'.

Holly ......

Some folk have a very poor grasp of where the money for the bank bailout,the welfare benefits and an overblown public sector comes from,not to mention PFI & the interest
payments on all the money Bozo borrowed in good times as well as bad.
But hey bloody ho that's trolls for ya.
Thick even in defeat...they just do not get it.

Dimoto

Holly, even thicker are the prats on here who love to feed the Trolls.
A thread on Osborne's speech derailed by the usual Trolls.
Pathetic. The Troll feeders deserve their pet Trolls.

Iconoclast

Holly,
Yes, I *commend* you, you are indeed an excellent Troll. I love the "back in the day quotes", always the last refuge of an impoverished intellect and perhaps if you come back to this thread you could educate me as to how the fiat/fractional reserve money creation/system actually works? Or as you put it "where all the money comes from" ...the same "money" that has caused the damaging explosion in property for example, which you may or may not have benefitted from? In your own time... ;-)

Iconoclast

Paddy, the 'people' voted for a hung Parliament, they were that unconvinced despite the appalling leadership and monumental gaffs by Brown in the election campaign. Cameron was equally unimpressive and Clegg gave a decent couple of "who's he?" sound bytes..

The Libs should have retained some dignity and allowed the Tories to take power with a slim majority and or go to the country again..

The Lib Dem vote is now in single figures, fast forward 4 years, how on earth will they begin to outline a strat. to campaign together? Co-allitions never work unless it's based on, for example, a German model.

The progressive solution would be to move away from the tribalism so readily on view here...

Paddy

Iconlast: We have a coalition whether we like it or not!

Deal with it!

Iconoclast

Paddy, can you recall the rhetoric after the election as this hastily cobbled together bastard/hybrid govt emerged? "The country nees some certainty, the markets need it...it's in the best interests of the country" etc...Nonsense. Why do you think Nu Lab finally gave up and walked away? It'll fail, the cracks with Simon Hughes are already showing, how on earth can this co-allition stay wedded through to the next election?

As election approaches what do they do; shake hands, say thanks for the memory and part company but keep in touch on facebook?

This govt will be prove to be more unpopular than Thatcher's once Gideon's madness is unleashed, muddled England has no concept of how dire society and the economy will get once the full austertiy measures are unleashed..