A totemic austerity measure

stabledoor

This is a joke right?

EyeSee

well I suppose if you ignore that the EU is trying to 'integrate' our armed forces into all others and that the French are supremely unreliable (giving military secrets to their Serb friends for instance) I suppose you could see it a a money saving attempt. In fact, the EU rather want Britain to be the backbone of 'their' Armed Forces abd, as we have proved so stupid in the past, to pay for most of it too. Let's keep a decent Force of our own and we can afford it now we don't have to fight wars to make Blair rich and by leaving the EU today.

Bruce, UK

As Mr Liddle says, "Lunacy. Plain and simple."

Mr Orwell again - you know the one, pig, man, man, pig. One cohort of traitors for another.

Hanglemez Pallaccini

That'll just make our ultimate foreign policy aim of re-invading France a little bit more difficult, won't it?

Hugo Chav

Large Cap--->Medium Cap--->Small Cap.

How Blighty has fallen....

Occasional Ostrich

Or perhaps it's just another small step in Gordon von Macavity's master plan to force us to seek closer European integration by ourselves . . . first bust the country so that it can't maintain its objectives . . . then, when it seeks to 'share' its armed forces with Europe, turns his back and say, "Nowt to do with me. It happened by itself." All the while chuckling that his hatred of the armed forces and his desire to disband them is one step closer to fruition.

Tarka the Rotter

great fun if ever we go to war against the French...

Cuffleyburgers

This is an appalling idea, beyond satire.

The french of all people!!

I've just come from reading Hague's drivelling article in the telegraph about limp wristed foreign policy, and well I'm just about to buy a truck and a gun and head for the hills.

The coalition made a decent start, but is fast revealing itself as the sort of blair lite horror show I have previusly derided the likes of Verity for banging on about - could she have been right all along?

And in which case where do we turn we who only ask for sensible, limited government in the interests of the law-abiding, har-working british citizen?

FFS!!

I am getting seriously p**sed off

Patrick

Dave should be very careful. This one has the potential to be wildly unpopular and politically damaging. Cut the overseas aid budget first maybe.

In2minds

Is sharing aircraft carriers a bit like sharing sovereignty?

Walsingham's Ghost

Forgive me, but I appear to have been transported to a parallel universe...

Who in their right mind believes that if we needed the French to support us in a conflict zone which they did no approve of, that they would?

As for Defence of the Realm, history teaches us that when the chips are down, the last nation on earth that the UK can rely on to stand beside it and not raise its hands in surrender is France.

This would be laughable if it were not for the fact that our increasingly weak grasp of national governance in the UK now makes this a distinct possibility...

WG

TrevorsDen

This is just a rumour and it was first floated oh - a year ago. It is probably being floated by civil servants in an attempt to kill off the idea of scrapping the proposed new carriers. The idea hardly looks feasible.

The fact is we do not need these carriers or the expensive planes they fly. If we want to co-operate with the French we could buy the naval version of their Rafale aircraft.

What we need is a totally rebalanced fleet, more flexible and with more harrier type aircraft flying of cheaper smaller more numerous carriers and ships like HMS Ocean. The replacements for the Illustrious class were originally meant to be 30,000 tons - now they are over 60,000.

These maga carriers are being built without a catapult so can only fly hugely expensive US designed VTOL planes, they cannot even fly off small AWACS. Furthermore we are not building enough air defence destroyers to protect them.

The whole exercise is politically based to put jobs in labour constituencies in Scotland. As it stands the 'fleet' will have 2 carriers hardly any planes to fly off them and 4 destroyers. And 99 Admirals.

paul fitzgerald

I wouldn't worry the french dont like fighting so give them some cheese and bread and say we'll do it...How many french are fighting with our brave lads,not many and prob not at weekends....

justathought

This article hints at the struggle governments are having getting to grips with public spending budgets. There are so many vested interests all making special pleading.

Hopefully the coalition will follow the example of the prudent british taxpayer who according to the BOE have taken austerity to new extremes. Net lending, which takes out redemption's and repayments totaled £86m during July, down from Junes £518m. This is the lowest net lending since records began.

The homeowner is massively de-leveraging and so are companies. Banks have also de-leveraged , now its time for the bloated public sector to do likewise.

Letter from Yorkshire

Er... maybe sounds obvious, but why don't we scrap Trident. If we don't need the 200m warplanes and carriers - then we certainly don't need the nukes (which aren't our anyway... the idea of using them without US approval is laughable)

Ian Walker

Aircraft carriers have been obsolete for years. The mistake is to conflate "projecting air power," a military necessity with "having a bunch of planes on a ship" which is just a big fat target for anyone with an Excocet.

You can achieve the same result with and combination frigate-based helicopters and UAVs and missile cruisers.

TomTom

Can't we have HMS Nelson as a flagship for a French Admiral ? Now that Britain is a "bargain basement medium-sized power" and just as Churchill starved the military of funds between 1924 and 1929 with his "Ten Year Rule" so it is starting over again as British politicians discover they have wrecked the economy by overloading it with debt....yet again

Victor Southern

Incroyable! Mal! Merde!

This must be far and away the most stupid idea about cutting military expense yet. In what conceivable circumstances would our navy have any common purpose with the French? Defending the Falklands?

TrevorsDen

LfromY -- Trident does not cost that much to run - its finding money to build a replacement. Not that we need to make a decision for years. The nukes are ours and I think you would find that IF someone bombed us we could use them. I also suspect that even America would consult before firing off any nukes (assuming attacked).

I presume by 200 million you are referring to the cost of each VTOL plane.

Baron

Why not cast the net abit wider, do a deal with the Chinese, that's where the future is.

bohodotcom

With the FRENCH for God's sake! Have the gone raving mad? Doesn't anyone remember Agincourt??? Hastings??? Papier Mache???

Del

2 years ago the RAF undertook a "change management Programme" to consider their "future role". This was part of a forces wide review of strategic capability, the conclusion of the RAF was that within 20 years they would be operating only "specialised" manned attack aircraft of less that 3 squadrons, all other attack aircraft would be unmanned, the remainder of the service would undertake support and transport roles. The Navy continued its internal fight with the MOD to secure 2 large scale flat tops (carriers) briefing senior politicians that they could combine the fixed wing role together with the Naval support role - the future of the RAF being moved to a specialist role within the Army theatre. The Army argued for a greater role for the RAF and considered that the Navy's ability to defend its carrier fleet as unsustanable. It is likely that the Navy will procure both carriers with a gap of some 4 years between commissioning of each with the first in service around 2014...it will be the last time that the Navy procures a in-house specified carrier. It has been rumoured that the second carrier if it is ever built may be leased or built under licence - possible to the French?

Chuck Unsworth

And we now trust the French? Why on earth should we do that?

The only thing we can trust the French to do is to look after their own interests - to the exclusion of all else.

Cjamesk

Just another excuse for the integration of our Armed Forces into the proposed EU Army, since when have the French been trustworthy on Defence issues?!? Serbia / Falklands spring to mind.

Will a real conservative in "Dave's" party please stand up, for at the moment we`ve just swapped Red for Blue, who`s really pulling the strings as it seems "us" the great unwashed are discarded at every opportunity.

yank

Hilarious comment over in the Sun article that Mr. Hoskin linked, and from a knowledgeable source, too:

"The French shall hand over their ships now or prepare to be bored by our MPs."

6:46AM, Aug 31, 2010

Lord_Nelson

.

.

I'd say this is just a trial balloon being floated (although the Brits and French are coordinating their nuke submarines as I understand, to some extent, so there is some form here). Pretty smart move by the coalition, as they'll get an idea of what's what out in the hinterlands. Sort of a Tirpitzian gambit, no? Maybe Dave's not as dumb as we make out.

I'd agree one should be wary of alliance with the French, as that's brought on much disaster for the Brits over the last century. Best to go slow here.

Also agree a smaller, more nimble force is the way to go. The US is currently stuck with a dozen or so white elephants lumbering about the seas, with huge and costly staffing, logistics, hardware, training and strategic anchors dragging from those elephants' fat ankles. Many of us saw the need to cancel the construction of the last 2-3 of those rigs.

No need to fly off dozens of jets to do a job today. One aircraft, or one missile, can do it oftentimes, which also implies that your basic white elephant is vulnerable to a similar threat.

Best to build more of a smaller platform, if anything.

strapworld

One step closer to a EU integrated armed service.

Hague is proving to be the very worst of the worst.

If this link with the French does not break the conservative party I do not know what will.

Baron

bohodocom @ 12.13:

“With the FRENCH for God's sake! Have the gone raving mad? Doesn't anyone remember Agincourt??? Hastings??? Papier Mache???”

quite, madness.

nobody seems excited at all by the suggestion of mine to go to bed with the Chinese. Some long time ago, we may have pissed them off what with the opium and stuff, more recently it’s been all kiss and cooperate. They have enough cash to build any number of boats, will have more as the Yanks slide further south, they speak better English than the French, and lets face, there are more of them, which always helps if it comes to blows.

still no takers then?

Bruce

We don't need new carriers they are weapons of offence not defence. Not much use against the terrorists of 9/11 and 7/7. The world has changed and now terrorism is the real threat. just keep some labour jobs in Scotland. Anyway we can't afford the planes for them.

Neil Turner

Didn't Cameron promise us a referendum before we handed any more powers over to the EU ?

John David Barnett

This, surely to goodness, has to be a Silly Season spoof?

The Laughing Cavalier

Lunacy, sheer lunacy. Does anyone, even for a mad moment, think we can trust the French?

Frank P

Bwaaaahahahahahahahaha!

Oh Verity, Oh Verity. How right you were! Forgive my false hopes. It was the best I could do for my descendants - vote & hope! I am ashamed to think I could have been so naive.

I now concur – it is quite clear that Cameron and his whole crew are fucking traitors! Selling us out to the frogs, of all people? I am just surprised that they didn't go the whole hog and cut a deal with Armydinnerjacket. After all, the Senior Service has already surrendered to the Iranian navy once, quite recently. Might as well enter into military Dhimmitude now; we have already lapsed into almost total cultural and religious Dhimmitude.

That's it, then? Is there not a single military chief left with workable cojones who can organise a coup? I always knew that the Senior Service was a bit iffy - all that time at sea with no female company 'n' all that. Not so much a question of "Don't ask - don't tell" - more a certainty of "You don't have to ask or tell 'cos it's a given! It's the Navy, ennit?"

But to put the best of our golden riveted ships under the governance of the Frogs is unconscionable. How about a spate of mutiny, guys? Your C-in-C is surrendering to Napoleon’s descendants, FFS.

I suppose from now on, it will it be "'ello! 'ello, matelot?"

And to contemplate this, just as that Argentinean cow is stirring up the Falkland's issue, with oil drilling ambitions regarding our south Atlantic patch?? Great forward planning, you dhimmi-witted fuckwits.

Jesus H Christ!

Who is the Defence Minister, again? Oh - of course, another Jock! Hails from a country that never had a Navy and even objects to us defending them by parking the nukes up there. Feckin’ ingrates! I can still smell their urine from the Home Internationals at Wemberley, when - if you didn't sow up your pockets before the match - first they picked them, then they pissed in 'em for good measure. Uggghh!

What a pity Lord Nelson had no legitimate descendants. Oh – I forgot! It was a given – even then. But, for all that ....

Come, cheer up, my lads, 'tis to glory we steer,
To add something more to this wonderful year;
To honour we call you, as freemen not slaves,
For who are so free as the sons of the waves?
(Chorus sung once...)
Heart of oak are our ships, jolly tars are our men,
we always are ready; Steady, boys, steady!
We'll fight and we'll conquer again and again.

We ne'er see the French but we wish them to stay,
They always see us and they wish us away;
If they run, we will follow, we will drive them ashore,
And if they won't fight, we can do no more.
(Chorus sung once...)

They swear they'll invade us, these terrible foes,
They frighten our women, our children and beaus,
But should their flat bottoms in darkness get o'er,
Still Britons they'll find to receive them on shore.
(Chorus sung once...)

Britannia triumphant, her ships sweep the sea,
Her standard is Justice—her watchword, 'be free.'
Then cheer up, my lads, with one heart let us sing,
Our soldiers, our sailors, our statesmen, and king.
(Final Chorus sung twice...)

Ahhhh! Those were the days...

The Laughing Cavalier

"Liam Fox, the Defence Secretary ... repeatedly visited Paris for discussions before the election. A Whitehall source said: "Liam has made it clear that we want more co-operation ...". This is why I have consistently rated Fox as worse than useless in the Conservative Home surveys. Time to get rid of this dimwit.

Verity

This is in the service of Davie Dim's ambitions in Brussels.

TrevorsDen

"history teaches us that when the chips are down, the last nation on earth that the UK can rely on to stand beside it and not raise its hands in surrender is France"

Huh?
history teaches no such thing.
Did the French betray us in the Crimean war?
The French were bled white by WW1 but did not surrender.
WW2? I think you will find that we were beaten every bit as roundly in May 1940 as were the French.
If you cared to look that is ...

Dear Frank P - go douse yourself. Stop screaming garbage. These stories are just scares put up by civil servants. Quite possibly there are hopes that 2 carriers might still be built but one operated by the French -not sure if that would suit anybody.

There is nothing wrong with the French and British looking at co-operation (it has nothing to do with the EU and there are plenty of similar examples with NATO anyway) but the unlikely scenarios where this would happen demonstrate we do not need these carriers.
Yank is right we need more smaller ships more flexibility.

Sadly all this thread is doing is demonstrating a whole barrel-load of ignorance.

PS
scrapping the carriers is not the same as scrapping the jobs, different ships can be built instead.

Noa

A totemic austerity measure?

More righteous and pleasing measures would be the immendiate abolition of the annual £18 billion 'International Development' budgets and cessation of the similar amount paid to the EU until its accounts are cleared and our memberships terms satisfacorily revised to include the full restoration of full UK sovereignty.

That should quite adequately provide the funds necessary to secure the UK's security. The point made by poster is also taken that a review to determine the real benefits and alternatives to the carriers is also required.

Charlie

Wasn't it a French minister (or Chirac even) that stated during the UN negotiations that they would block any military action against Iraq, effectively emasculating the 'threat' of military action?

Sharing patrol duties or information is one thing, but being dependent on the whim of the French to defend British interests abroad is a gamble too far.

TGF UKIP

Frank P, a year ago, 2nd Sept 2009 in fact, you posted some very pithy sayings on the French sent to you by one of your mates.

The two I always especially remember are Stormin Norman's "Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without your accordion" and by a guy called Dennis Miller "What do you expect from a nation and a culture that exerted more of its national will fighting against Disney World and Big Macs than the Nazis."

For the general delectation of Coffee Housers, can I suggest Frank, that today might just be a good time for a repeat posting of the whole list.

George Laird

Dear All

Defence Sec Dr. Liam Fox is a joke turning into bad taste.

How much longer is David Cameron going to put up with this buffoon?

English Tories must be livid.

Sharing Carriers with the French is nonsense!

A new defence sec is needed, preferably someone with commonsense, let the Scottish carpetbagger who is desperate to try and act English for his North Somerset voters be given something agricultural in whatever department handles that.

On behalf of the people of Scotland, sorry for the East Kilbride buffoon, it is a little place, where the major discovery was the road to Glasgow.

His only real defence experience was fighting against gay people accessing the same rights as others while at Glasgow University.

As I understand it didn't develop in to hand to hand stuff, Fox isn't that type, 'in the rear with the gear'.

Fox is a Scottish embarrassment but you can keep him as he works on his 'Britishness'.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Olaf Rye

Why are we cutting defence when there are so many bureaucrats to fire and spongers on the welfare rolls ? This government is making some exceptionally bad decisions.

Frank P

Neil Turner

"Didn't Cameron promise us a referendum before ceding any more powers to the EU?"

It is irrelevant what he promised; he lost the election and did a deal with the Third Man to save his own arse. He is snookered; so are we until there is another election. Then I fear more of the same. Power has been transferred from Leftist Internationalists to another bunch of Leftist Internationalists, including a cabal of Etonians who are busy feathering their own nests until the hoi polloi can make up its mind about what to do about traitorous politicians. In the meantime pay up and remember just how much you've been screwed at the next election.

Frank P

Trevors Den

Even for you, the disingenuousness is gobsmackin'!

Marcher Baron

So the French are to support us - like in 1940, perhaps?

yank

TGF,

Yes, we could all benefit from a good dose of frog bashing, just for general principles' sake. It's all gotten a fair bit too cozy in this tribal little world, what with US presidents bowing and scraping about, and the French being welcomed as sensible (or being welcomed at ALL!).

We must do something about this, and restore order, before it's too late.

I'll start. ;-)

From George Patton: "I'd rather have a Nazi division in front of me than a French one behind."

Fox in a box

To paraphrase MacMillan:

The problem with the French is...they always let you down in the end.

Dimoto

Charlie, remind me - what vital British interest was involved in invading Iraq ?
Is sucking up to the Cheyney mob now a "vital interest" ?
The French were probably acting in our best interests, but Blair and his flunkies were far too busy trying to please Bush 'n Cheyney, to notice.

Bexleyite

The French? Cheese-eating surrender monkeys as they were once called.

Nelson must be turning in his grave.

Frank P

TGF UKIP (7.22pm)

Okay - just for you (on second thoughts cc Trev):

"France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes."
Mark Twain

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me."
General George S. Patton

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
Norman Schwartzkopf

"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it."
Marge Simpson

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure."
Jacques Chirac, President of France

"The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee."
Regis Philbin

"You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it."
John McCain , U.S. Senator from Arizona

"The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag."
David Letterman

"Only thing worse than a Frenchman is a Frenchman who lives in Canada."
Ted Nugent

"War without France would be like... World War II."
Unknown

"The favourite bumper sticker in Washington D.C. right now is one that says 'First Iraq, then France.""
Tom Brokaw

"What do you expect from a culture and a nation that exerted more of its national will fighting against Disney World and Big Macs than the Nazis?"
Dennis Miller

"It is important to remember that the French have always been there when they needed us."
Alan Kent

"They've taken their own precautions against al-Qaida. To prepare for an attack, each Frenchman is urged to keep duct tape, a white flag, and a three-day supply of mistresses in the house."
Argus Hamilton

"Somebody was telling me about the French Army rifle that was being advertised on eBay the other day – the description was, 'Never shot. Dropped once.'"
Rep. Roy Blunt, MO

"The French will only agree to go to war when we've proven we've found truffles in Iraq.""
Dennis Miller

Q. What did the mayor of Paris say to the German Army as they entered the city in WWII?
A. Table for 100,000, messieurs?

"Do you know how many Frenchmen it takes to defend Paris? It's not known, it's never been tried."
Rep. R. Blount, MO

"Do you know it only took Germany three days to conquer France in WWII? And that's because it was raining."
John Xereas, Manager, DC Improv

"The AP and UPI reported that the French Government announced after the London bombings that it has raised its terror alert level from Run to Hide. The only two higher levels in France are Surrender and Collaborate. The rise in the alert level was precipitated by a recent fire which destroyed France's white flag factory, effectively disabling their military.

French Ban Fireworks at Euro Disney (AP), Paris, March 5, 2003
The French Government announced today that it is imposing a ban on the use of fireworks at Euro Disney. The decision comes the day after a nightly fireworks display at the park, located just 30 miles outside of Paris caused the soldiers at a nearby French Army garrison to surrender to a group of Czech tourists.

h/t Lynda,

Archie

A more preposterous idea would be difficult, if not impossible, to conjure, even from DD (Dhimmi Dave) and the increasingly embarrasing Hague! Frank P: what should we expect from a nation that thinks the ghastly Jerry Lewis is the funniest person in the history of the world? By the way I was taught the chorus was "Ready? Aye, ready." Reads a lot better.

Charlie

Dimoto - I never commented on the validity of the invasion of Iraq, but an important part of negotiation is not announcing your limitations or weaknesses to your opponent, which is what I WAS commenting on.

Frank P

Charlie

Your reasoned comments are the best so far.
In a nutshell, too.

I was just taking the wee-wee in mine and refusing to take the proposal seriously, working on the principle that dire suggestions should always be treated with a healthy dose of contempt, lest the proposers take themselves too seriously when being taken seriously, so to speak.

Osred

Theres a long long list of countries we could share hardware with before we reach the French. I'd place them just above the Vatican - on 2nd thoughts, at least they have the Swiss Guard.

Osred

This has nothing to do with austerity and everything to do with European political and military intergration - Cameron & Cos secret guilty pleasure.