CoffeeHousers' Wall, 6 September - 13 September

lescam

very quiet in here today

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Went out very early today, right into what is usually the rush hour. London buses almost empty, and plenty of underground tube trains, with lots of spare seats. Did most of our workforce decide it would be impossible to travel home tonight with the planned strikes? Did many call the office pleading sickies, or were the dedicated workers all curled up in bed on a cool Monday morning?

TheSuperfluousMan

Yes, very quiet.

lescam

coffee, anyone?

oldtimer

Coffee? I think that the Coffee House has gone off the boil.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

So quiet ....
With a whimper, not a bang......TSE

Occasional Ostrich

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

You live in LONDON??? FGS WHY???

TheSuperfluousMan

Just got back from the Blue Oyster Bar with Peter Wyngarde (beautiful voice, as ever) And the way he looked at that waitress.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Occasional Ostrich:

I'm crazy, but not THAT crazy!

Herbert Thornton

Are the CHW supervisors, along with Spectator as a whole, beginning to develop Political Correctness Disease? They seem reluctant to publish any discussion of immigration, the growth of Islam in Britain, the connection of those phenomena with British-based terrorist activity, and the nonchalant attitude of the Cameron government towards these matters.

We no longer see anything by Mark Steyn either. Will Melanie be the next to be dropped?

Verity

Herbert Thornton - No. Melanie was not a staunch and loyal ally of Lord Black.

David Ossitt

We now hear that in the labour leadership elections there are many who are eligible to vote, who have not one vote, not two but can have as many as six, seven, or eight, in fact it is possible (though unlikely) that some can have more than ten votes.

Is this not a wonderful example of the corruption that is the communist/labour party.

I hope that they tear themselves into tiny pieces.

daniel maris

Whereas the Tory Party is a model of democracy? LOL Do us a favour.

As for the Coffee House doldrums, the Spectator's world view seems to be a solely capitalist one these days. Everything appears to pass through the prism of private enterprise, as though you can build a country like a business. Well, their world may be rocked if - as "Hedge your bets Johnson" seems to be saying in today's Telegraph - Ed Balls is proved right about the government tipping us into a double dip recession. Capitalists are quite happy with mass immigration, welfare dependency for a few million, low wages and a dumbed-down society.

I'd like to see the Spectator as a non-PC mouthpiece for a populist agenda that includes a strong private enterprise base but is prepared to defend our culture, oppose mass immigration and stick up for traditional values.

Derek

daniel maris

It seems for you to realize what you would like to see we would have to persuade the two mock-gothic hermits to sell the Spectator back to Lord Black. Gets my vote. In the meantime, the back end of the magazine is still producing good stuff - except for the tedious and repetitive Taki.

Herbert Thornton

Verity -

I don't recall reading anything written by Melanie about Lord Black. Was it a matter of her (after the fashion of Pastor Martin Niemöller) failing to speak up for Black, or did she also write unfavourably of him?

Daniel Maris -

You say that you - "..would like to see the Spectator as a non-PC mouthpiece for a populist agenda that includes a strong private enterprise base but is prepared to defend our culture, oppose mass immigration and stick up for traditional values."

I agree with you because that's what I'd like to see too. Nonetheless, I'm mildly surprised to read you saying so because isn't the only party that supports that policy the BNP?

Frank P

Really looking forward to this:

http://rightnetwork.com/

In the nick of time perhaps? November simply must be a game changer for the world. If not .... we may as well hang up our keyboards.

As for the home front here: very, very depressing! What with CCHQ looking more like GCHQ - and Nero Zero changing nappies while Rome burns, an' all. FMOBB!

Wilhelm

Daniel Maris, a BNPer , who would have thunk it !

Wilhelm

Great Scott !! I got a comment published.

MikeF

I see Stephen Fry is bemoaing a 'culture of fear' at the BBC which is producing 'incredibly bland' programming. Presumably the reason why he features so much.

Frank Sutton

Anyone hear a piece on Today (BBCradio4) today about the US "Tea Party" movement. It consisted, for some 10 minuites, of derisive and hostile comments unbroken by a single voice in sympathy.
Presumably the Beeb has lost all pretense of balance.

Frank P

Frank Sutton

Judge Napolitano is standing in for Glen Beck on Fox while Beck is on furlough. Yesterday evening the Judge did a reprise of Beck's best bits on the economy (minus the -er - lay pulpit stuff; very good editing and much less gauche than Beck's sometimes over-egged emotional shtick and book promo blurb). Tonight he is doing another cutting room job on the Leftist cabal that spawned Obama. Though I mix on Beck, his heart is in the right place. But his data (fed from numerous sources, apart from his own frenetic historical research) does need better presentation at times and Napolitano is good at that. Big egos vying for ratings does get in the way somewhat, but Middle America seems to be listening now and perhaps the mid-terms will reflect that.

Coffee House has lost interest in the US scene apparently. So up to their arses in the Labour party 'leadership' circus and the CCHQ Hilton lounge that they are missing the real struggle for the salvation of the West over the Pond.

Noa

Frank P

Thanks for that link. Even if it's US based it will hopefully provide a shot across the bow of the New Statesman-like thingy that the Spectator has become since Dave's bedroom frolics with the Limps commenced in May.
And if they launch an acceptable UK site I'll be down the hawser faster than a mock mohican chasing the tea bag he just accidentally dropped overboard.

Noa

Mike. Sharply observed!

Frank Sutton

Listening to Today? I really struggle on that one. Thirty seconds of Sue Macgonigle and wee Jamie Naughty, combined or alone, are enough to destroy my tea induced equilibrium.
I have been surprised at the high crumplability of the modern radio as it shatters on the kitchen floor and now set all such domestic appliances to Radio 3. Even this has its flying plastic dangers, political correctness often intrudes, as anyone who objects to the Proms celebration of composers because of their homosexuality, as opposed to their musical ability and compositions will observe.

I have come to the conclusion that older listeners now treat the BBC much as ordinary Russians treated Soviet radio broadcasts; we listen 'between the lines' of neo marxist propaganda, extracting what relevant grains of truth we can find and disregard the rest. The public reaction to the Pakistani flood appeal provides evidence of this approach, as does the ever growing demand for the abolition of the licence fee.

EC

Frank P, September 7th, 2010 8:07am

http://rightnetwork.com/ >>>
"We are not on this Earth to live our life for Federal bureaucrats"

Amen to that!

However, here in the UK, the present reality is that we are in the post democratic era of an embryonic totalitarian European superstate run by the unelected, dazzling Herman Van Rumpuy and the equally charismatic and unelectable Baroness Ashton together with their hordes of unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats.

We have become hostages of consensus politics where the main parties stifle debate on fundamental issues and policies which never get voted upon. The debate about AV is a sterile one, a distraction. AV is irrelevant when the leaderships of the main political parties are a cabal.

The consensus politicians in Germany got a shock last weekend when a poll showed that 20% of Germans, from both left and right, would vote for Thilo Sarrazin if he formed a political party. Sarrazin is the 'maverick' Bundesbank board member who recently had the temerity to indulge in a bit of free speech and utter his concerns for the future of Germany.

Nero was too busy surfing whilst 'er indoors was in labour so there's a fat chance of him changing any nappies! "We're all in this together" have got servants for that!

Austin Barry

I see that our Muslim chums are enraged yet again. This time by the proposed Koran burning in Florida on 11 September.

I must have missed their outraged, fist-waving demonstrations against the proposed stoning to death of the Iranian woman.

alexsandr

No comments on the HMRC cock up. Seems we can reject their demands for money if it is their fault.
Perhaps someone who understands this stuff could post here with the details on how to tell em to get stuffed.

Noa

alexsandr
"..Perhaps someone who understands this stuff could post here with the details on how to tell em to get stuffed".

And does that message include any rebates they might want to make to you?

Verity

Austin Barry - Very best of luck to whoever's organising the q'ran fry-up! I'm predicting a huge turn-out.

EC - Excellent post!

Frank P - Nero Zero! V good! (I doubt that he is changing nappies though, as we haven't had pics on the front pages. However, now that you've mentioned it, I have no doubt plans are afoot, press photographers are being summoned even as I write, and news editors being urgently advised to hold the front page.)

Herbert Thornton, I only meant that Mark Steyn was a vociferous and, of course, very clever and killingly articulate, defender of Lord Black. I didn't mean to imply that any of the other writers had any role one way or the other, or even that they held strong opinions one way or another.

AngloWelshDragon

A couple of things which say much about our times….

1. Our 16 year old son embarked on the first day of a 3 year Vehicle Maintenance course at our local ‘uni’ yesterday, We had sent him off with the requisite boiler suit and toe ‘tectors but he won’t be needing them today as the whole day is devoted to …Equality and Diversity. Presumably this is not aimed at ensuring the students don’t discriminate against Renaults in favour of Land Rovers.

2. On the up side, we have been invited to a “Pre Spending Review Party” next week.

Funny old world.

Thucydides

I know that form dictates that any mention of the BBC or the EU has to be accompanied by a stream of invective, but I feel impelled to point out:

To Noa, that the BBC is not neo-Marxist (and that talk of an ever-growing demand for an abolition of the licence fee is wishful thinking)

To EC, that we are neither part of nor on the way to a European superstate (and I wonder whether you read what that German banker you seem so keen on actually said; Jewish genes!!)

Noa

T'dides.

Dependenat in part upon your age, are you sure you would recognise an impartial and objective BBC any more?
Given that its institutionally Leftist bias is admitted even by the DG, Thought I'm happily willing to concede that it's neo-Marxism is also adulterated with Trotskite and Stalinist elements.
In fact, tell me when you last heard a programme providing an alternative or right wing view on anything regarding the prevailing orthodoxy?

Rod Liddle's last ST column was anecdotally informative on the subject of Today.

I've provided a view and substantiation for opinion of the BBC, unlike your Panglossian self.

Wilhelm

So ingrained is the leftist bias in the BBC, the Eloi represented here by Thickydiddy, arent even aware of it !!

EC

Thucydides

Westminster is very much Local Government these days and, unless you live in Scotland or Wales, what was local government has all but ceased to exist. However, the expense of maintaining the charade persists!

What Sarrazin actually said and what people said he said are two different things and has become obscured in the predictable hysteria and accusations that ensued. Dumb move on his part. However, Jews and their genes aside, what Sarrazin has actually done is to get the whole of Germany talking about immigration and integration when before his intervention neither the SPD or CDU/CSU wanted to talk about those things. No doubt, following the controversy and what is proving to be his problematical dismissal, his book will be a bestseller.

In January 2005 was the Israeli English language daily newspaper Haaretz being antisemitic when it reported that as a "Jewish disease" Tay-Sachs, caused by a recessive gene, had almost been eradicated due to proactive screening?

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Concerning the proposed Koran burning in Florida on 11 September, I am completely against book burning. I read the repulsive "Mein Kampf" and also the equally vile works of Karl Marx, together with classical history and modern day biographies. Books are a record of humanities thoughts, deeds, and ideas, and as such should not be wiped out.
Far better, if those who hate Fundamentalist Muslims, join the armed forces and volunteer to serve in those parts of the world where mayhem is caused by these barbaric primitives.

Beer Moth

This European Union thing? Are we in it or not?

Britons were recently informed that they will soon have to work beyond the current retirement age. Result: a resounding 'oh well'.

The French, upset that they will have to work until age 62, today took to the streets; some 2 million of them.

But, even more perplexing, the Greek worker can retire at 53 - for many Greek civil servants they are very lucky and can retire at just 44.

Some negotiating/arse kicking to do here?

Wilhelm

Thickydiddy tells a whopper

'' We are neither part of or on the way to a European superstate.''

Britain was conned into the Common Market, in the 1970s on the PRETEXT of cheap booze and cigarettes. From a free trade area to the EUSSR in less than 30 years. Its got a flag, a national anthem, a president, a parliament, it makes laws which over rule national laws, its got a single currency. Seems like a superstate to me Thickydiddy.

Nicholas

Typical modern British contradiction. Whilst presiding over, tolerating and encouraging by example a corporate culture of kicking every male over 44 onto the slag heap the government say that we must now work beyond 65. The equality and fairness BS espoused by New Labour and eagerly taken up by Cameron & Co. does not appear to extend to males over 50 being discriminated against in the workplace and on TV (where they are stereotyped as "Grumpy Old Men").

Noa Zrk

T'dides

As to the BBC licence fee, it's audit was, of course a Conservative manifesto promise.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/apr/13/conservative-manifesto-bbc-licence-fee

I also refer you to Ben Bradshaw's comments as Culture Secretary in February, when Labour mooted the abolition of the fee:

"...I think there is a good reason to have a debate in the run-up to the next licence fee, which we shall have if we are in government, as to how big the BBC should be, how big the licence fee should be, even if we should continue to have a licence fee in the long-term as the best funding mechanism.

'These are bound to be matters for discussion, it is important that we have that debate and it is important the public are involved in that debate because in the end they are the people who pay for this service and consume the programmes.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254401/We-scrap-BBC-licence-fee-win-election-claims-Culture-Secretary.html#ixzz0ysCengXG

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254401/We-scrap-BBC-licence-fee-win-election-claims-Culture-Secretary.html

EC

Nicholas @ 8:14pm

Precisely! Where are the jobs? Just watched the Newsnight 'special' on pensions and retirement and not one of the smug panel on there saw fit to ask that fundamental question. God, that Will Hutton made me want to puke, as did Doris Karloff.

Wilhelm

Pastor Terry Jones is going to burn books of the Koran, he's had 100 death threats. I was always told by the lame stream media that islam was a religion of peace. Their actions kind of proves Pastors Jones point.

Ronnie

Not only is the BBC now politicaly unbalanced but it's reporting is as shallow as an ashtray. 'Journalists' are allowed to form conclusions on an issue which are then broadcast without any attempt to air anything approaching an opposing point of view. Their general covereage of Paul Kagame's recent re-election are a case in point.

They have tragically become Novosti. We need to have the BBC fixed, not silenced and a complete review of their editorial policies is long overdue. If we are to pay for it we are entitled to much better than this.

Why not abolish the licence fee or the BBC itself? Because I hate Murdoch more.

Thucydides

Noa,

Yes, I’m sure that the majority of the people who work at the BBC are left of centre. But to say that the programmes it produces are neo-Marxist/Stalinist whatever is nonsense. Of course it’s impossible to be completely impartial, but I believe that the BBC makes good efforts to be as neutral as possible and generally succeeds. (I imagine that the average age of commenters here is, what, 60-70? Well, I’m younger than that but still old enough to recognise impartiality.)

On the licence fee, the Tory manifesto promises an audit of the BBC’s accounts by the NAO, while Bradshaw’s comment that we should debate “even if we should continue to have a licence fee in the long-term as the best funding mechanism” is hardly evidence of strong desire to scrap it.

Wilhelm,

I shall merely point out that the EU does not have a single currency. You’re better off sticking to the darkie-bashing and leaving the grown-ups alone.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

The hypocrisy of Socialism is alive and well. The gall of Lord Mandelson in condemning the appointment of Bob Diamond at Barclays is laughable. I'm no supporter of Diamond, indeed of any greedy bankers, but the two-faced attitude of the avaricious Mandy is sick-making. Connaught is going down, taking thousands of working people's jobs. So called social housing (and housing associations) are prime milk cows for over represented top management, continually changing their letter heads as regularly they change titles cashing in on a gullible public. Left and Right are indeed united!

Wilhelm

Thickydiidy tells another whopper

'' The EU does not have a single currency !! ''

Whats the Euro then ? are they sweeties ?

EC

Beer Moth,

Dunno if you frequent this site, but the comments are remarkably up to date and, for the pubs around here, accurate.

http://www.beerintheevening.com/

Wilhelm

Sad Ronnie

The BBC CANT be fixed, it just cant. Its like trying to reform the communist party, it has to be abolished.

EC

Anne Wotana Kaye 1,

I am in total agreement with your comments about book burning. If I caught some attempting to burn a copy of the Quran I would feel instantly compelled to urinate upon it in order to extinguish the flames.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

EC: Very witty - But alas, if I thought directed urinating would do the trick, I'd agitate for diuretics to be introduced into the drinking water, bottled water and beer. For the Jihad that's coming (without the excuse of the nutters in Florida) we need a strong united resistance against these barbarians.

Sam ARMSTRONG

It doesn't matter how many Korans they burn in Florida, having just returned from a round trip in the US, in all of the nine states I passed through, the number of Muslims in the US is increasing and increasing.

I suggest the book burning will just add to the city dwelling, liberal American's view that opposition to Islam equates to toothless, dumb hick in Texas, not worth listening to. Result: more Democrats elected and the situation worsens. Better to be debated honestly and fearlessly by the Republican Party. But the Republicans defeat in the last election has left them battered and without any vision.

That's what happened in Britain. The spineless Tory party never properly created a true debate about these issues and instead supinely let the problems continue. The only ones who were left debating got the Gillian Duffy treatment. And now we are defenceless.

I got talking to a college student in San Francisco who, when I asked her where she was from, replied "Austin". "Austin Texas?" I replied. "Austin is not officially in Texas any more" she said "because it's the only blue (Democrat) city in Texas. We disown Texas!"

The Republican Party has abandoned the average American and their concerns and will now simply let the NWO take over with Islam as its battering ram.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Patricia Shaw: As usual I disagree with you. Don't waste your hate on Mel, she is far cleverer, wiser and honest than you are. Save it for me, because if I had my way, I'd support a good old fashioned Crusader War against the whole damned lot. It's either them or us, and as a woman I don't relish being stoned to death if I step out of line.

Ronnie

'...it has to be abolished.'

Why's that Wilhelm dik? So we can all have information that you approve.

Frank P

A post today from Gerard VDL that deserves full duplication and it should go viral:

CITIZENS
An Open Letter to Democrats Who Have Considered Suicide When the Rainbow Was Not Enuf

Dear Friends,

Though we seem to agree so little these days, surely we must agree that in the pantheon of our Presidents, from the honorable and brave of old to the craven and corrupt of today, Abraham Lincoln is one of the few we all revere. Knowing that I direct your attention to his Abraham Lincoln's First Inaugural Address when on the eve of civil war and caught in the vortex that swirled before that long fire in men's minds, he still held out his hand:

"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battle-field, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearth-stone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

Lincoln knew, as we know, that citizens with the best of intentions can still be used by politicians with the most rapacious of intents. There's no shame in that. It is only human.

We too have been ill-used by many of those politicians we have trusted even if we have not been so ill-used as your trusting souls and easily gulled credulity have of late. We have had our Nixons and our know-nothings in our turn as well. We share, even though we are at times ashamed to admit it, you embarrassment of being taken by the bright and shining lie.

Still, there is nothing for it now except to make your wrong turn right. Slogans and bamboozling have fogged your minds. It is time now, as this essential election approaches, for you to get your mind right; to return to your right mind.

A mind is a difficult thing to change. I know this well having struggled with it and paid the price in property, position, and lost friends. It can be done but it cannot be done overnight. My fellow colleagues who have come late to their right minds can sometimes expect too much of you. They expect you to travel ten leagues beyond the wide world's end in the time a reasonable person can only attempt a city block.

There is a middle way for this November and I urge you to consider it.

If you have read this far you know that this looming election must be one in which the nation, without ambiguity, rejects the ruinous path on which it has been set by an administration and congress that is nothing short of monarchical in its structure and tyrannical in its aims. Power is too much in the hands of a criminal establishment with only the ruin of the nation as its goal. We see it in every action. We hear it in every speech. We feel it daily as we walk about our streets.

For the system of a democratic republic to sustain itself, it must check and balance power. Surely we all remember that from our school days -- "the system of checks and balances." For nearly two years now we have witnessed the unappealing spectacle of a system which has no balance and no effective check upon it. The result is a machine with no governor on its spending, its intrusiveness, its ability to cripple our economy, to weaken our armies, and to -- by removing itself from effective diplomacy -- destabilize the world. All history tells us, as our own ancestors -- no matter what their origins -- would tell us that this situation inevitably and invariably ends in guns. If not here, elsewhere in the world. If not now, later.

I implore all of you of good heart and clear sense to help us begin to restore checks and balance to our nation in November. Help us check this monarchical disaster and balance the ship of state.

It may well be that your own heritage and background may be such that it is anathema for you to vote against any candidate the Democrats may see fit to offer. I know that feeling well. It is not something cast off in a day, a week, or even years. The conditioning starts early and is continued in family, school, and work for many decades. It is not easily broken.

There are two alternatives.

The first is quite simple. Vote with your absence. Stay home on election day. Cast no vote. Let us carry the weight. We shall do so. As a wise man once said, "Sometimes the best action is to do nothing."

The second is nearly as simple and answers to the call of duty in a democratic republic which is to vote whenever you have an opportunity to vote. All this entails is to remind yourself that when you are in that voting booth, you are sovereign and your ballot is what strong ballots always are, secret. Knowing that and holding that as the single secret that can keep the blessings of liberty for yourself and your posterity, step into that booth and this time, I implore you, vote right.

Sincerely,
Gerard Van der Leun

http://americandigest.org/

Frank P

Hey Patricia

Yep, if only we'd stop stirring up those God fearin' peace lovin' Muslims ....

an' I sez to maa-seeeellllfff - what a wonderful whiiirrrrrrllld .... Oh yeaaaahhhh!

phil

However much I may deplore the lunatics who have become militant Islamists ,I cannot applaud another KRISTALNACHT,how low do we have to sink to mimic the evil nazi regime ?

Noa

T'dides

I fear the only way that you and those who share your surprising naive view that the BBC is politically neutral will be disabused of that fatuous notion, is not when it's DG says so, but when Joseph Stalin is appointed as the reader of the Nine O'Clock Tractor Production Statistics.

But then, that could be the ideal new role which the foully-suited Gordon 'Breznev' Brown is seeking!

Ronnie

I think we should just take a moment to consider the defence of book burning and burners by one of the most committed and revered, if not universally respected, defenders of the state of Israel.

Might this not be a little rash?

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

The Buddhas of Bamyan were destroyed by the Taliban, who continue to destroy anything that is not to their mad, fundamentalist creed. I repeat that I am completely against book burning of any sort. I do not consider the koran as a special case, it is certainly not a book of peace. Although it is an evil book, written by wicked men, it is still a book and as such should be preserved as a creation of human beings and to serve as a warning as to what insanity man is capable of. The lunatics now threatening to seek revenge if the Florida nutters go ahead, need no excuse. It is part of their agenda to destroy the 'infidels', their culture and their very civilisation. Again, I repeat, complete war should be launched upon them before they complete the Jihad which they have slready begun. But can anybody see the allied forces acting against them? I just hope a Winston Churchill will arise before it is too late.

In2minds

While it's wall-to-wall Coulson I see the Tory pledge on the EU, "to not let matters rest", part of a general desire not to give away more powers to the EU, has taken another knock. It's now totally devalued as Osborne is happy to give the EU 'Oversight Plan' the green light.

EC

Ronnie,

It appears that Patricia's rasher has been given the chop!

Osred

The BBC may not be Marxist but their employees would be quite comfortable operating under the likes of Brezhnev or Andropov.

Talking of whic I wonder what the current censorship stats for the New Spectatorman are?

Wilhelm

Sad deluded Ronnie

'' Whys that Wilhelm, so that we can all have information that you approve .''

Yes.

Verity

Eric Pickles for PM! He's just sacked another quangocrat! Wheeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1310025/Eric-Pickles-fires-left-wing-quango-queen-blamed-election-night-shambles.html

Noa Zrk

Steady on Verity!

She has only lost her £14k p.a. P/T job on the Audit Commission and has asked to stay on as £100 p.a. head of the Electoral Commission until its closure in 2012.

I also admire Mr Pickles excellent work, but the quango closure rate needs to speed up. At this rate the 1162 existing,(@May 2008) will be down to 1150 by the time of the next election.

And it's definitely time he cracked the whip on Leather!

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/bettergovernment/2008/05/quangos-the-uns.html

Noa Zrk

Whether or not one considers the BBC’s political orientation to be Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist or even Juche it is consistent in its application to the communist cause. As in the late 19th century, the terms "socialism" and "communism" are now often used interchangeably. However, Marx and Engels argued that communism would not emerge from capitalism in a fully developed state, but would pass through a lower phase in which productive property was owned in common but people would be allowed to take from the social wealth only to the extent of their contribution to the production of that wealth. The "lower phase" would eventually evolve into a "higher phase" in which the antithesis between mental and physical labour has disappeared, people enjoy their work, and goods are produced in abundance, allowing people to freely take according to their needs. Lenin frequently used the term "socialism" to refer to Marx and Engels' "lower phase" of communism and used the term "communism" interchangeably with Marx and Engels' "higher phase" of communism.
It is arguable that we have passed through the lower phase; people certainly now take from the social wealth, but regardless of whether they have contributed to the production of that wealth. As to their “higher phase” that does indeed seem to capture the odd, unreal, license paid BBC world. It really is past the time for them to go back out into the cold.

Ronnie

God knows I've tried EC but I've no idea what you are talking about. Please explain.

Ronnie

Yes, the Audit Commission's profligacy was truly hilarious.

Wilhelm

I love the new Spectator censorship, dont you ?

Austin Barry

The only lesson to draw from the proposed qu'ran burning by the nutty Pastor is just how terrified, how absolutely scrotum-contracting, bowel-liquifyingly terrified, the ruling elites of the West are of Islam.

And Islam will have noticed.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Austin Barry: There may not be many vestal virgins left in the West, but surely NuLabour, LibDems and the so-called Tories can muster a litter of eunuchs to placate and pleasure Islam.

charles hercock

Junior docs unable to care and leaving UK in droves

Working time directive

Why dont they get on and withdraw from this anticompetitive directive

Come on Lansley and friends show us your anti EU mettle

PeterR

After some 50 years of watching politics and, yes I confess it, having formed a fairly jaundiced view of the lot I have come to one conclusion and I would welcome other people's opinions on whether I am correct.

Government are without doubt the single greatest cause of inflation that any country has to bear: am I right or wrong?

Verity

Further to my previous post (which has inexplicably not yet appeared - it must be a busy day at the font face), the people who dumped all that tea in Boston Harbour were not particularly erudite or sophisticated either ... but they knew a gross injustice (as in the West,against the will of the people, giving a free pass to a primitive, violent belief system) when they saw one.

Their cry was "No taxation without representation", and to show that they meant it, they dumped an entire cargo of tea in Boston Harbour.

This Florida pastor has the same independent spirit. No passivity in the face of violent aggression from a primitive, violent and bullying belief system.

I give you odds on that this pastor's q'ran BBQ is the beginning.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

PeterR All governments in all countries are vile, to a greater or lesser degree. Inflation, starvation, misery, all caused by government.

Verity

Tomorrow is the start. The Boston Tea Party started the American Revolution and resulted in American independence from Britain.

We will see what results from tomorrow. My bet: there will be a fair turnout of New Yorkers in attendance, much as they will hate associating with a country pastor. There will also be people from other parts of the country.

Roll-out.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Concerning the pastor's intent to burn books. I repeat, as a civilised human being, who I hope has some education and culture, I object to burning literature, of whatever taste. But by everything sacred, I'd like to blow these barbarians off the face of the earth.

Verity

You know what? Gainesville, Florida may become our era's Gates of Vienna!

David Ossitt

I have posted this elsewhere but suspect that I might get more of a response here.

Can some coffee houser out there answer me a question?

I am obviously looking for someone who has the knowledge to answer me.

My question is, if a bank such as Barclays were to split in two, either voluntarily or because government legislation forced them to do so, what would be the effect on the shares of existing shareholders?

Wilhelm

Regards to the koran

Last year in the peoples marxist republic of Glasgow, there was an art exhibit in a museum of a bible were you, the general public could srawl with a felt tip pen all over it, paid for by the taxpayer.

Not a cheep out of the lame stream media.

daniel maris

Companies have been split before now. ICI was split up I think and also British Gas. I guess the shares are shared out on some pro rata basis according to the asset split.

Simon Stephenson

Thucydides : 8/9 8.01am

"Of course it’s impossible to be completely impartial, but I believe that the BBC makes good efforts to be as neutral as possible and generally succeeds."

No, this is not how the BBC operates. Within the BBC cocoon there are a number of "approved" positions and these constitute the totality of worthwhile consideration. These positions are not necessarily mutually supportive, but they are the only ones to which the BBC is comfortable giving house-room.

Look at Iraq, for example. The BBC is happy to give a platform to those who continue to support the decision to go to war, and to those who agreed at the time but now disagree because it's turned out to be a shambles, and also to those who disagreed at the time because we failed to get the go-ahead from the United Nations - but it treats as a hare-brained nincompoop anyone who claims that we shouldn't have invaded because it was a morally wrong thing to do, or anyone who claims that Bush and Blair ought to have found a less destructive way of demonstrating he-man credentials to their electorates.

As long as the opinion is somewhere within modern orthodoxy the BBC will give it a fair hearing. If not, whoever is putting it forward is treated as though he has three heads. If modern BBC methods had been around at the time, the likes of Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, Einstein and Keynes would never have got a look in.

Nicholas

My Mac really doesn't like the nasty Kodak ink blot animation that is crammed around these pages.

Herbert Thornton

I see that the BBC is carrying a headline that says - "US pastor cancels Koran burning".

Their report goes on to say that the Pastor, Terry Jones, said he was "calling off the event after the group behind a planned Islamic centre near Ground Zero in New York agreed to relocate it."

Then the BBC adds - "But the cultural centre's organisers said they had no plans to move it."

Is the BBC telling us the truth? Are the "cultural centre's" organisers telling the truth? Is the Pastor being misled? Will mohammedans now believe that they have frightened not just the infidel U.S. government, but have also so terrified most Americans, especially the Pastor, that he has changed his mind?

St Bruno

The American Christian leader who threatens to burn a book can do so under American law.
But there is more to it than just being a book, any old book. To compare the said book burning with the Hitler event is wrong. Hitler ordered many books, thousands with different titles, not just one book with one title. Of course that doesn’t make the burning more right or wrong. As a book lover burning books for political reasons are just as bad as using them as some kind of power politics.

An explosive book. An important book all the same to some people, much like the Little Red Book of the Cultural Revolution not so long ago. The book in question means not one iota to me, nor the life style it evokes, in fact it is totally alien to my upbringing and the way I hope the future will progress in England. Yes, I have read it, though a few years ago now in the 1960s along with other books of religious beliefs including Das Kapital and Mein Kampf.

I just hope the heroic Christian, no matter which denomination he belongs, does not bottle out and cancels the burning. Why? Well, I think it is about time that some Christian person stands up and says that Islam is not needed here! There will undoubtedly be a blind flash of rage from the peaceful followers and the ritual demonstrations and accompanied evil flag waving with terrorist inscriptions in many countries besides America. It might even give them the moral fortitude to burn a few Bibles and Jewish books for good measure. But the bottom line will be inscribed in their minds that they should watch their step in future and not take our friendship for granted. The media has and is playing down the whole issue of burning the book but the potential consequence, based on past outrages, is violence, could even kick off civil wars. Maybe this time the religion of peace will turn the other cheek as we have done for far too long.

It is about time Islam got the message that we will not submit, will not give up our heritage and countries to your beliefs as many have done. Pack your bags and go back to where you came from and then you can indulge in Islam in peace if you can.

Derek

As Mr. John Milton reminded us in Areopagitica published in the year of the Battle of Marston Moor, Englishmen, with good reason, do not burn books.

We do, however, fight for our ideas - and go on Crusades to rescue peoples,not least our own, from evil ideologies.

Derek

The current editor of the Spectator reneges on his promise and on his duty to address Neathergate,prompting us to reflect with the poet "I know not.. / whether those who did our Rights betray, / And for a mess of Pottage, sold away / Our dear bought / Freedoms, shall now trusted be, / As Conservators of our Libertie."

But westward, look, the land is bright!: Front Page now has up Geert Wilders speech to the House of Lords on 5th March this year wherein we can read:

"Last year, my party has requested the Dutch government to make a cost-benefit analysis of the mass immigration. But the government refused to give us an answer. Why? Because it is afraid of the truth. The signs are not good. A Dutch weekly magazine – Elsevier – calculated costs to exceed 200 billion Euros. Last year alone, they came with an amount of 13 billion Euros. More calculations have been made in Europe: According to the Danish national bank, every Danish immigrant from an Islamic country is costing the Danish state more than 300 thousand Euros. You see the same in Norway and France. The conclusion that can be drawn from this: Europe is getting more impoverished by the day. More impoverished thanks to mass immigration. More impoverished thanks to demographics. And the leftists are thrilled."
(http://frontpagemag.com/2010/09/09/to-save-a-continent/)

If Mr. 10% is not brave enough to publish his thoughts on Neathergate, might he stiffen up his sinews sufficiently to commission and publish an equivalent cost-benefit analysis for our country?

Verity

Herbert Thornton, I read that Donald Trump had said he would buy the site and thus free it from the ambitions of the islamic triumhalists.

Don't know if it's true.

He could have done it before. But he didn't.

It seems to me this simple, grass roots preacher who intended to insult the q'ran before the world got some traction.

The Islamics are being turned back at the Gates of Vienna once again. This is the turning point.

No matter how the islammers try to diffuse it, this was a turning point. And was accomplished by a simple man of faith.

egh

"You know what? Gainesville, Florida may become our era's Gates of Vienna!"

Say wha' Verity? Are you sure you don't mean the Gators of Orlando?

Here in the Okefenokee - admittedly up the Suwannee - I heard that the Seminoles aren't too impressed with those other rednecks! Do please explain :))

Herbert Thornton

One of the questions I raised in my previous (11:50pm comment) was - "Is the Pastor being misled?"

Now I see the following in a Google News headlines list -

"Pastor Terry Jones says imam lied to him" - that is apparently from USA Today. Other news media appear have similar reports.

Wilhelm

I loved the way the lame stream media has smeared and done a hatchet job on the Florida pastor,'' he's a nut, maverick, eccentric,'' talk about bias.

Beer Moth

"Harry Redknapp eyes England manager job"

"Yeah, lets get it knocked up to the big fellah"...see cos yer Latins they just can't handle the high ball. And so what if we do concede four goals for every one of ours.

Ronnie

Verity.

I think you have to choose. Boston Tea Party or Gates of Vienna. Either will do very well but I'm not sure you can have both.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

St Bruno: It is about time Islam got the message that we will not submit, will not give up our heritage and countries to your beliefs as many have done. Pack your bags and go back to where you came from and then you can indulge in Islam in peace if you can.
============================================
From your mouth to G-d's ears. If only!
Here, alas, the chattering classes are stirring up a 'rumble in the jungle' against the Pope's planned visit. They can see western civilisation destroyed, their daughters dishonoured and their neighborhgoods taken over by towel heads, but just a deafening silence.

Thucydides.

All getting a bit overheated here – particularly Verity with her Gates of Vienna claptrap. Still, credit where credit’s due, and I applaud Wilhelm’s efforts to build bridges with his “regards to the Koran” comment (9/9, 9.33 pm). I’m sure the Koran would want to send its regards back to you, too.

Austin Barry

Beer Moth

Yer out of order, son. England can't win trying to play football. What we need is youngsters what get stuck in, like in my time we had Ron 'Chopper' Harris and Norman 'bites-yer-legs' Hunter. Real men. Not fancy, nancy pretty boys like that Jamie...er...hold on.

EC

Beer Moth,

England football manager job. Can you think of an English/British candidate? Without there being any possibility of bringing Brian Clough back to life surely the FA's only option is to double, triple, quadruple Capello's meagre stipend and beg Jose Mourinho to take the job?

For at least the last 20 years, every time the manager job comes up, I've campaigned for Nicholas van Hoogstraten to get the job. His team talks would be highly motivational and he doesn't take any shit from anyone, judges and media included! Those dirty rotten biased and/or bent foreign Refs would have to take note.

When Fabio finally hangs up his England blazer, apart fromJose and 'The Hoogs,' other candidates for the job might possibly include:

Alf Tupper,
Simon Cowell,
Julia Middleton,
Abu Hook Hamza,
Patricia Shaw,
Ann Widdicombe,
Pastor Terry Jones,
George Laird,
Piers Morgan,
THX1138,
Kerry Katona etc.

Noa Zrk

St Bruno
"..just hope the heroic Christian, no matter which denomination he belongs, does not bottle out and cancels the burning. Why? Well, I think it is about time that some Christian person stands up and says that Islam is not needed here!.."

Why should the Western rejection of Islam be dependent and focused on one pastor in Florida.

Anyone of us, religious, athiest, or agnostic, can equally demonstrate tomorrow our rejection of this creed by reaching for lighter fuel and a copy of this book, readily obtainable from any Ummah store.

And 200 million burnings will send the messaage more effectively than one that we will not be bullied, threatened or superseded.

Noa Zrk

Five minutes of uninterrupted muslim propaganda, from the normally aggressive Humphrys on Today this morning from the imam who has been negotiating with Pastor Jones.

With the lefty obsequious beeb, it's not what you do, it's who you do it to that counts.

EC

Old sayings, new meanings.

Rat arsed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-11251605

phil

Austin Barry
September 10th, 2010 8:04am,Steady on Austin ,you seem to have forgotten Tommy Banks and Skinner Normanton ,and the daddy of them all the special Nobby Stiles ,those were the days when we knew what was going on in this world .

Wilhelm

Thickydiddy '' I applaud Wilhelm for building bridges with islam.''

I'll treat that remark with the disdain it deserves.

phil

The problem over the burning books scandal is surely not the crazy"pastor"-master of all he beholds including 50 more lunatics - but the tens of thousand crazies who wish to kill all over the world for the words of this stupid man -it says much to me if not to all of you of the utter brainlessness of these miltants .
-----------------------------
We lived more or less in peace with Muslims until Al Quaeda cast its shadow on this world ,thereby perverting so many millions of vulnerable people to their sick ideology .Bin Laden seems to have been able to infect so many young Muslims in much the same way as hitler did with the young Germans -That nation has recovered and I hope with the passage of time and better education so will the religion of Islam
-----
.Meanwhile we must remember the west is under attack,indeed we are at war with the hijacking and perversion of Islam even if our politicians do not dare admit it ,, but not with every Muslim and we must not force them into that war..Insults and degradation heaped upon all Muslims brings shame upon us and further pushes those who are wavering into extremism.It may make some here feel momentarily better but in the long run we all are harmed .
-------------------------------
As usual I realise that my words will be ignored by the cabal,but I am sure other people read this wall and will realise that not all Brits are racist and that we do not all hate every Muslim .

Verity

Thucididdums - The brave fighters at the Gates of Vienna stopped the fascist conquest-driven islammers at the Gates of Vienna. Had they not, there would have been no advanced Christian society for you to grow up in.

One man standing alone against the obscenity of islam, and it looks as though he has had a victory.

It mustn't stop there. Burning q'rans will become a movement. The islammers didn't know how to react to one brave man.

Looks like one lone, brave Christian - 1 - islam - nil. Nul points. Nada.

Ronnie, the burning of the q'ran is>/i> the Boston Tea Party. It's also the Easter Bunny and Christmas come early.

It's a defeat of a detestable, controlling, cowardly belief system.

Nicholas

And so Patricia Shaw El-Zatmah (of Palestinian Mothers) what stops you from being a Left-on spittle totin' apologist for terror from the lunatic fringe?

Osred

Thucydides - mining the deep seams of disingenuousness and sailing the seas of evasiveness since 1767

Noa Zrk

Patricia Shaw

I have not heard the programme to which you refer. However, as Melanie Phillips is occasionally invited to defend the legitimacy of the state of Israel from the ideological and physical attacks of militant islam and it's assorted western communist allies and liberal useful idiots, I assume that is what you are referring to.

Peter From Maidstone

Phil, I am afraid that we did not live at peace with Islam for centuries. Perhaps Europeans did, but those Christians who came under the authority of Islam have had no let up in a millenia and more of persecution. Even in the last century a million or more Christians were killed by Muslims, and today it is still happening everywhere Muslims are in control. Just recently a group of young Christians in Egypt were shot dead by a Muslim in an attack on the Church. Such attacks are rarely, or never, reported in the UK. Recently another Church in Egypt was surrounded by a Muslim mob with torches (the real ones with real fire) and they tried to burn the Church down with the congregation inside. It never stops, even though it is never reported. There has never been a time when Christians have found Islam a comfortable master. The aim of Islam has always been the extermination or at least the complete dhimmification of Christianity.

Osred

RE: Phil @ 3.53
“tens of thousand crazies who wish to kill all over the world for the words of this stupid (pastor) man”?
What news outlet told you about these ‘militants’ then? I’m not aware of thousands of folk ready to kill in response to his obscure protest – unlike the hyper touchy medieval buffoons who have already murdered the likes of nuns in the name of ‘the religion of peace’.

You say, “We lived more or less in peace with Muslims until Al Quaeda cast its shadow on this world” (!!?)

Words fail.....As me old Ma used to say ‘There’s none so blind as those who won’t see’ – but ignore her and check out ‘The myth of Islamic tolerance’ by Robert Spencer. Or read of the millions of Jews and Christians who have been slowly ethnically cleansed from their land (the Middle East) over the centuries.

“..we are at war with the hijacking and perversion of Islam..” Could you tell us exactly what part of the Koran has been perverted? In what way has the call to kill ‘pigs’ and other infidels been hijacked or perverted?

“...Insults and degradation heaped upon all Muslims brings shame upon us..” Why can't they take heed of the saying ‘sticks and stones.. etc etc? And what degradation have we heaped on them? Evidence please. They seem more than capable of culturally degrading and hamstringing themselves under the ‘guidance’ of thousands of Islamic ‘scholars’ and imams.

“I am sure other people read this wall and will realise that not all Brits are racist and that we do not all hate every Muslim” Enough of the genuflecting please! Enough of this one-way cringing. Let the ‘Islamic world’ worry about what we think for a change – and for this I thank that obscure southern Pastor who has got the ranks of Washington and Western dhimmis wetting their nappies..

Noa Zrk

I see that phil considers it necessary to provide a explanation cum apology to muslims in general, despite the fact that the west is also considered to be under attack.
In doing so he equates dissent with this creed as racism, and infers that such dissent is hatred of all muslims.

The innate strength of western democracy, philosophy and culture needs to make no such explanation or apology in it's absolute right to exercise it's hard won freedoms to islam or any other creed.
Western philosophbeliefs This

Herbert Thornton

The current excitement over Pastor Terry Jones' opposition to the proposed mosque near the New York site where thousands of people were murdered by muslim suicide bombers brings to mind a couple of quotes from a wise man in ancient Greece -

1. “The strong do what they have to do and the weak accept what they have to accept.” and

2. “Justice will not come to Athens until those who are not injured are as indignant as those who are injured.”

The wise man was Thucydides. (It will presumably be obvious that there is a considerable difference between his thinking and that of the "Thucydides" who occasionally comments in this forum.)

Verity

Phil dribbles out the "thought" that "We lived more or less at peace with muslims ...".

We did?

Could you explain your bizarre statement to the Spanish, please? Could you explain it to the folks who lived between junky islamic countries and Austria?

I do not believe this pastor backed down. Something has occurred to persuade him to alter his plans and that something has to do with that obscenity of a mosque clownishly masquerading as a "community centre".

I'll tell you what ... this confrontation and its has got the wind up their thobes.

Noa Zrk

Derek's excellent post does not cover the economic effects of immigration on the UK.

In October 2006, the National Institute Economic Review No 198 contained a commentary on immigration and its effects. This examined the impact of immigration between 1998 and 2005. It concluded that immigrants who have arrived since 1998 have raised GDP by 3.1%. According to the Labour Force Survey figures in the report, of the 58.987m population, 2.249m have come to the UK in the 8 years since 1997. The crude addition to the population (excluding UK-born children) is therefore 3.8%. So the benefit is negative in terms of GDP per head.

For those who wish to inform themselves further of the economic costs of immigration I commend the briefing papers in the objective and respected Migration Watch archive.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/archive

Beer Moth

Austin Barry

English football had its chance when it was handed the gift of Matthew LeTissier, and duly smothered his genius in stultifying, predictable tactics.

EC

I honestly believe that if tomorrow, Capello were to hand over to a coaching partnership of Joe Pasquale and our very own Patricia Shaw, we would stand just as much chance of international success. It's all bollocks, you see, this football management. Pure bollocks.

Alf Tupper? Whatever became of him?

Verity

I posted a similar thought to Osred and Peter from Maidstone. It hasn't run yet.

The islammers, bullies that they are, are scared. They're scared of an obscure Florida pastor who has a deep faith in the Christian God and sees islamic ledgerdemain with 20-20 vision.

The islammer reaction has been typical of bullies. Frit.

I don't know what Donald Trump is doing in all this, if the rumours are true, but Mr Trump is Jewish.

Things are cooking along nicely, are they not?

phil

Peter From Maidstone
September 10th, 2010 5:04pm-I am amazed ! -- my post brought me an immediate insult from verity herself who does not read what I write :)-Noah attempts to read my mind and puts words into my mouth-and it has been months since he sent a decent insult .Osred uses my words to launch a pile of childish abuse -Amazing as I said ,it just took a few words suggesting a little calm be applied, and criticising the abominable pastor ,who I might point out has been castigated all over the world but not of course by the usual suspects here
----------------------
.Even so Peter I take your point ,but mine was that the west had not been having much trouble until bin laden launched his attacks upon us -I have never defended militant Islam at any time but I cannot include all Muslims in the tirades that appear here on a regular basis .Many here try to trump each other with even nastier attacks which I at least find abhorrent ,I am well aware that the club here do not appreciate much of what I write but I am comforted that in the wider world that I think you too inhabit ,I am considered both sensible and caring :)-So whether they like it or not I will write what the man on the Clapham omnibus would most likely say ,in the hope that those that happen upon this wall by accident will realise we are not all right wing copies of Alf Garnett .My kind regards to you, a ray of light in this dark place .

Noa Zrk

Derek - the Battle of Marston Moor.

Dluy visa'd up up to visit our eastern rivals, I visited Marston Moor a couple of years ago. Leaving my better half in the car, by the monument, I happily assured her that my visit to White Syke Close, the bloody site of the end of the battle, where the Duke of Newcastle's obdurate geordie Whitecoats fought to the last man, would only take a few minutes.
My return, over an hour later, was marked by a coldness which lasted several days, much longer than the battle itself.

phil

Verity .can you explain what you meant with your remarks about Donald Trump-I doubt that you were being rude about Jews ,possibly the only people who have escaped your wrath but it certainly left some confusion -I would think awk would like to know what you meant -If you do not feel able to explain yourself to me at least you can tell her .He certainly does not appear to be Jewish ,just check his fathers name ,unless of course he is the 2000 year old man .

Donald Trump is the son of Fred Christ Trump (Woodhaven, New York, October 11, 1905 – June 25, 1999) and wife Mary Anne MacLeod (Stornoway, Scotland, May 10, 1912 – August 7, 2000), who married in 1936. His paternal grandparents were German immigrants; his grandfather, Frederick Trump (Kallstadt, Rheinland-Pfalz, March 14, 1869 – March 30, 1918), immigrated to the United States in 1885 and became a naturalized US Citizen in 1892. Frederick married Elisabeth Christ (October 10, 1880 – June 6, 1966)[8] at Kallstadt, Rheinland-Pfalz, in 1902. Trump is Catholic.[9

David Ossitt

Osred
September 10th, 2010 5:10pm

Well said sir.

Noa Zrk

"Noah attempts to read my mind and puts words into my mouth-and it has been months since he sent a decent insult" .

phil mistakes the identification of some of the illogicalities and mistakes in his generic abasement to mohammedans as an personal insult.

No so, he is as equally entitled to do so as the Floridian paster is to burn korans, or phil himself.
And I defend and uphold the right of all of us to say or do as we please, within the reasonable bounds of the law and principles of democracy.

I also defend our right to criticise and debate them, which would not of course, be allowed to occur in islamic states.

Peter From Maidstone

Phil, I do not support the actions of this US pastor at all. I guess we are in agreement on that. I can think of no justification for burning the Koran in a public demonstration. (That is different to pulping it in private). But though I imagine we agree on that, I do not believe that Islam can be treated neutrally at all. We are certainly to show generosity to the poor, the widows, the orphans, but I cannot see that historical Judaism or orthodox Christianity or Western democracy should show generosity to a political agenda which has as its aim the elimination of our own way of life. Christians may well wish everyone to embrace faith in Christ, but not at the point of a sword - my own Church has never used violence as a means of mission. But Islam does wish to see all submit to Islam and is quite happy using violence if necessary, and will often use violence as a first choice.

Why is the press not reporting the incidents of Bible's being burned, Churches being burned, Christians being burned, all in the name of Islam? Why is Obama stating that every God is the same just with a different name? That is not what the Church teaches. Although it may be what his conventicle teaches.

Why is there no parity of reporting? A man 'threatens' to burn Korans and the whole media machine swings into action. Bibles, Churches and Christians are ACTUALLY burned, very regularly, and nothing is said at all.

I am very happy to provide for those who are in need, but I will not support the abandonment of our own freedoms and faith in the name of hospitality.

phil

Noa Zrk
September 10th, 2010 7:25pm-noa you can say what you want, at least write in English and spell reasonably the abominable Pastor is not a paster ,that we can leave to you.Your right to say whatever you like is down to the moderator alone and it does not mean it is either sensible ,coherent or reasonable just not too personal .
----------------------
You are aware I do not give a damn what you think as I am not trying to change you noa ,just to show that there are people other than you and your pals who have differing thoughts ,people who would like to live in harmony where possible with those of different religions colours and creeds, and you will have to learn to live with that .You will have to make do with the applause of the Kenneth Williams impersonator as will osred,possibly that is all you aspire too , so enjoy .My aspirations for respect do not include you or your cabal ,so I will hope for that respect and take the bumps wherever they may fall .The only use I have for you is the amusement you afford me with the pathetic attempts to bully me ,you waste your time and you will not get a cover charge .
---------------------
I hope the moderator does not think this is ad hominem ,it is merely a reply in kind and I have no wish to continue any conversation with you unless it is in polite terms and without the usual sarcasm which would be a first .

phil

osred .no reply my son except to say your words are too ridiculous ,and not worth even a denial .Although I will tell you that if you wish to make smart alec jokes at my expense (ok with me) -at least get them right ---"There’s none so blind as those who won’t see’"" NO OSRED -- THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE THAT CANNOT SEE -- maybe that,s why you cannot get anything right ok?-
-------------------------
Its quite amazing no matter what I write here more or less the only replies I get are from people who only wish to denigrate with the use of heavy insults and childish sarcasm -Peter M is a rare light of dignity even when he disagrees with me -what is your problem ,can you not say "I have a different view "

Noa Zrk

As usual when his views are challenged phil resorts, sadly, to personal criticism, with his 'cabal' conspiracy theory when he purports to make his faux-liberal apologia to muslims on behalf of those whose consider the actions of Pastor Jones to be appropriate, measured and entirely within both his and our rights.

The appeasement of a Chamberlain comes to mind, or the payment of Danegeld. As we have seen in this case, muslims, uncompromising in the advancement of their cause, react with scorn to what they perceive, correctly, to be the West's weakness, stupidity and cowardice.

As usual phil also, insinuatingly, seeks to enlist an ally to his cause. Invariably such advances are seen and rejected for what they are, as an attempt by ingratiation, to adopt and control.

Finally, I provide my thanks to phil for his spelling correction, may I in return take this opportunity to congratulate him on his ernest, if as yet occasionally successful attempts to improve his English comprehension, grammar and punctuation.

A reminder; "word, pause, comma, word".

ach. CHr's have elsewhere indicated their own
It reflects

noa you can say what you want, at least write in English and spell reasonably the abominable Pastor

Wilhelm

Phil

The correct phrase is

'' There are are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.''

meaning they CAN SEE but choose NOT TO, there is a big difference to what you wrote

'' There are none so blind as those who CAN NOT see.'' ie there already blind to start off with, which kind of defeats the meaning of the saying.

Night night.

Verity

Regarding the two posts above by the very loquacious Phil, remember that he is busy posting at half a dozen other locations, updating all his "social networkd" entries and lecturing the world from the flatlands of his limited experience.

Responding to him is a waste of time because he doesn't understand your references and contexts.

Beer Moth

So, that's Abu Bright away through the long grass, and his spot going-a-begging.

Frank Sutton

A Muslim US citizen was interviewed on Today (BBC Radio 4) about being a Muslim in post-9/11 America.
His name – Jihad Ali.
Obviously, it would have been in poor taste for Sara Montague to make an ironic quip.

phil

Verity
September 11th, 2010 12:33am.See how you have improved your life ,you now read my posts !-Unfortunately you have been unable to explain your latest accusation that Donald Trump is Jewish ,just another in a list of such accusations that bear no relation to the truth.I have to admit your reading is spread over a far wider net than mine so perhaps you have found something to share with us on some strange web site .It certainly is not plain to see what bearing his religion has to do with noa,s hero burning books.-Ah well maybe I should file it with the other nonsense about Caster Semanya , Bill Ayres and Obama`s face powder .

phil

Noa Zrk
September 10th, 2010 11:39pm-noa my dear I cannot leave you out, lest you think you are being ignored ,but this last effort of yours has drifted below even your usual standards -"faux liberal " "danegeld" "Chamberlain" and worst of all your sad reference to an "ally" who is a really decent man and does not deserve being referred to in this sordid manner.Jokes at my expense are fine with me but please have the good grace to leave others out of it .
----------------
Last week I complained about the denigration of the Jewish community en masse ,where were you then ?not a word ! ,and yet you in the face of the huge majority of world opinion choose to applaud this abominable "pastor".He does not represent Christian thought ,just he ideas of bigots .
---------------------
Have you really no sense of how disgusting the idea of once again burning books is ?November 9/1938 is obviously not etched on your mind ,sadly there are many for whom it is etched and they will be appalled by what you have said ,regardless of their religions or political persuasion .
-------------------------
Now just to make it clear I despise militant Islam ,but I do not blame every Muslim on earth for what they do ,So many are born to Muslim parents and have no choice ,they are Muslims in the same way as those born to Jewish parents are Jewish .I do not care what your religion is ,I judge people solely on their behaviour ,but from what you write you do not agree ,you seem to believe regardless of ones path in life ones religion defines good or evil -sick noa !

phil

Verity declines to explain herself ,so for the benefit of anyone who is confused see below -I will leave you to decide what were her motives -I have no idea and I suspect nor has she .gosh I have had a busy morning !
Must pop off now to the dozens of sites she says I inhabit .more tosh of course,but whats new ?
--------------------------
. NYC Imam Rauf says he will meet with Jones on Saturday, but has no intention of moving the mosque. Meanwhile, earlier today came the news that one of the investors had offered to sell his stake if the money was right. Subsequently, Donald Trump, rarely one to turn a publicity opportunity down, sent a letter offering to pay (plus 25% more) to end the “highly divisive situation.”

Here’s a quote from Trump’s letter taken from Crain’s New York:

“I am making this offer as a resident of New York and citizen of the United States, not because I think the location is a spectacular one (because it is not), but because it will end a very serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation that is destined, in my opinion, to only get worse.”

Apparently, the people at Park 51 were not won over by Trump’s gesture of good will. The Associated Press is reporting that the investor is declining the offer:

“Donald Trump’s offer to buy an investor’s stake where a mosque is planned near ground zero is falling flat. Wolodymyr Starosolsky is a lawyer for the investor in the real estate partnership that controls the site. He says Trump’s offer is ‘just a cheap attempt to get publicity and get in the limelight.’”

So there

phil

Just one more word if I may on this day of terrible memories ,Regardless of who you agree with or not, please join with me in a private prayer for those who lost their lives and their families who survived -may their souls rest in peace and may the survivors find comfort however that might be. .

Augustus

It's fascinating to watch the (brief) 9/11 Memorial tour video on the CNN website. The Memorial and Museum is planned to open on 9/11 next year, and it's interesting to see that under the two enormous waterfalls, seven storeys below at museum level the great wall holding back the Hudson river, which, had it been breached, would have resulted in flooding the whole of lower Manhattan.

Beer Moth

phil

Interesting that you view Jewishness as something to be accused of.

phil

Beer Moth
September 11th, 2010 1:08pm-no sir .and I feel sure you do not either -My remark was regarding the comment left by a previous post from verity as I am sure you know .To be honest I do not think she meant any harm but her words are not always carefully chosen neither is her research .I was always told to engage brain before mouth and it remains good advice for all of us here .

Verity

To the ever loquacious Phil - stop wasting your time addressing me, especially before I've had my first cup of tea. Stupidity, illiteracy and neediness are too much to take on an empty stomach. It's like reading a post by an offended gnat.

Skimming down your limitless words, and skimming over your limited "thinking" as I sought the next poster in an early morning panic, I see that you've now taken offence at my understanding that Donald Trump is Jewish. When I lived in the United States (that is a very large country on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean - and the Atlantic Ocean is a vast body of water that stretches from the Americas - of which the US is part - to Britain and maritime European countries) it was the common belief that Trump is Jewish. He was a fascinating figure in those days and got written about a lot.

I do not care a pile of monkey poo what, if any, religion Donald Trump is. I admire him greatly for his offer if the story is true.

Noa Zrk

9/11

" This mosque, the location of it, is a grievous offence to the sensitivity of 9/11 families”

Sally Regenhard, a mother of a WTC victim

"Never forgive, never forget"

http://sarahpalinrevolution.blogspot.com/2010/09/never-forget-never-forgive-ever.html

Beer Moth

phil

You saw accusation in something that was no more than statement.
The pre-position which makes that unconscious shift, is revealing.

Peter From Maidstone

It doesn't strike me that 'Never forgive, never forget' has anything to do with our Western Christian culture.

Thucydides

Verity,

What a strange world you live in. One loony pastor burns a book and Islam is frightened and defeated? And it's legerdemain, with only one d. If you're going to use fancy words - and why not - best to spell them properly.

Osred, what's that reference to 1767 about?

Augustus

Beware of any so-called religious figure who bellows, or who fans the flames of deadly discord. God is more likely to be found in silence. True religious figures look long and hard at their own behaviour rather than leaping to blame or harm others.

Verity

Thucididdy - Trying to be coolly contemptuous of me, you write: "One loony pastor burns and book and Islam is frightened and defeated?

1. Do have any proof that the pastor is loony? A lot of people who think outside the box have been described as "loony" and have turned out to be correct.

2. The pastor you refer to has not burned a book. Nary a match lit.

3. "Islam is frightened and defeated"????

You do understand the story, don't you? He THREATENED TO BURN Q'RANS.

The islammers knew that that might be the match that ignited American rage against them and began clucking nervously and making little gestures of amicability. It won't work. Americans are in the mood for a good blowout against islam, and this piece of deliberate impertinence on their part may just be the match.

I am with An American over on Conservative Cabbie. This mosque, aka "community centre" won't get built in lower Manhattan. The will of the American people will prevail over the will of allah and his army of enragees.

Noa Zrk

Beer Moth
Have I missed something? Has Comrade Bright's departure been announced?

Noa Zrk

Forgiveness is a personal matter,the sole remit of the victim towards his attacker. The attacker also wrongs the victim's parents and family.

No one else has the right to forgive the attacker on their behalf. Also, the family are only qualified to forgive for the pain and suffering caused to them. The victim alone is qualified to forgive his attacker for the actual injury inflicted.
It is not the responsibility of government to forgive the aggressor. It is its responsibility to take all measures necessary to prevent future aggression and the threat to the society it has been appointed to protect.

Christians, being a part of society, are of course entirely at liberty to seek God's foregiveness for the aggressor and may take comfort from their belief that this has occurred.
They do not, of course speak for those who do not share their beliefs.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Verity: I wish I was as optimistic as you are:
"I am with An American over on Conservative Cabbie. This mosque, aka "community centre" won't get built in lower Manhattan. The will of the American people will prevail over the will of allah and his army of enragees."
I have the same affection and deep respect for America as you have, but I am very apprehensive at the moment. I cannot forget that with the millions of people in the USA, a complete wanker, Obama, was voted into the highest office in the land. Bad enough that a Democrat was elected, but also that tail-follower Hiliary Clinton stands beside the wretched Baraq. I can remember her embracing Arafat and his stinking 'wife', so this should not be a difficult row for her to hoe.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Noa Zrk: Noa, 100% correct.

Osred

RE:Thucydides
September 11th, 2010 4:20pm

Your enquiry re 1767 - its nothing much, just an ever so gentle p!$$-take lifted from a T-Shirt I've got (an item of apparel oft worn by middle aged tw@ts like meself). The shirt says "Beer - helping ugly people have sex since 1767"...

talking of which.....

phil

Beer Moth
September 11th, 2010 3:50pm Forgive me I really do not understand what you are trying to say ,please explain as I would like to know .

phil

Wilhelm I sent this earlier and David tells me there was a problem with the web site and that it would appear -it hasnt so I am trying again sorry for the delay .
-----------
Wilhelm
September 11th, 2010 12:29am Cheers thanks Wilhelm .Unlike the Papa I am obviously not infallible:), but maybe this will help noa who has been cast adrift in his ark for too long studying grammar but neglecting humanities ---------------
------------------------------
"Matthew 13:13
: : : 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables: because they seeing
: : : see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand"

phil

posted earlier and lost I believe.
--------------
Noa Zrk
September 10th, 2010 11:39pm-noa my dear I cannot leave you out, lest you think you are being ignored ,but this last effort of yours has drifted below even your usual standards -"faux liberal " "danegeld" "Chamberlain" and worst of all your sad reference to an "ally" who is a really decent man and does not deserve being referred to in this sordid manner.Jokes at my expense are fine with me but please have the good grace to leave others out of it .
----------------
Last week I complained about the denigration of the Jewish community en masse ,where were you then ?not a word ! ,and yet you in the face of the huge majority of world opinion choose to applaud this abominable "pastor".He does not represent Christian thought ,just he ideas of bigots .I have spoken to a wide circle of people of all religions and political persuasions ,everyone was appalled ,so maybe it is you who needs to think whether you are in step ,you may find you have gone down a very dark alley although I do realise there are some here who will keep you company
---------------------
Have you really no sense of how disgusting the idea of once again burning books is ?November 9/1938 is obviously not etched on your mind ,sadly there are many for whom it is etched and they will be appalled by what you have said ,regardless of their religions or political persuasion .
-------------------------
Now just to make it clear I despise militant Islam ,but I do not blame every Muslim on earth for what they do ,So many are born to Muslim parents and have no choice ,they are Muslims in the same way as those born to Jewish parents are Jewish .I do not care what your religion is ,I judge people solely on their behaviour ,but from what you write you do not agree ,you seem to believe regardless of ones path in life ones religion defines good or evil -sick noa !

Noa Zrk

The pastor you refer to has not burned a book. Nary a match lit.

But Pastor Jones' idea, once released, like the genie from the bottle, cannot be put back into it.

The match remains to be lit, by anyone, at any time.

phil

Verity
September 11th, 2010 2:30pm ------ I only write to you for my own amusement because you always say you do not read my posts ,being truthful of course is not the best part of your game so we do manage to exchange our thoughts quite well .Your last effort was quite amusing even though you are prone to nicking my phrases .I am pleased to hear you admire Senor Trump even if his religion is not what you claimed ,just another aberration ?one in a very long list .I do not know how you get away with it here as you do have admirers, but I think they just push you to even greater excesses because it makes a good laugh .I do like a laugh but not when it means the demeaning of others by calling them wa--kers ,if that is the quality of your fan club ,forgive me if I do not apply .
-------------------
BTW the pastor is of course a looney,one with the support of thirty maybe fifty people other than yourself and noa of course so it would take some legerdemain as you like to call it to make your ideas popular -Well tata for now ,hope you enjoy our little conversations ,with a nice cup of tea , as much as I do ,life would be very boring if I never heard from brains like yours .

phil

I hope the web site is now ready to accept this post
---
Noa Zrk
September 10th, 2010 11:39pm-noa my dear I cannot leave you out, lest you think you are being ignored ,but this last effort of yours has drifted below even your usual standards -"faux liberal " "danegeld" "Chamberlain" and worst of all your sad reference to an "ally" who is a really decent man and does not deserve being referred to in this sordid manner.Jokes at my expense are fine with me but please have the good grace to leave others out of it .
----------------
Last week I complained about the denigration of the Jewish community en masse ,where were you then ?not a word ! ,and yet you in the face of the huge majority of world opinion choose to applaud this abominable "pastor".He does not represent Christian thought ,just he ideas of bigots .I have spoken to a wide circle of people of all religions and political persuasions ,everyone was appalled ,so maybe it is you who needs to think whether you are in step ,you may find you have gone down a very dark alley although I do realise there are some here who will keep you company
---------------------
Have you really no sense of how disgusting the idea of once again burning books is ?November 9/1938 is obviously not etched on your mind ,sadly there are many for whom it is etched and they will be appalled by what you have said ,regardless of their religions or political persuasion .
-------------------------
Now just to make it clear I despise militant Islam ,but I do not blame every Muslim on earth for what they do ,So many are born to Muslim parents and have no choice ,they are Muslims in the same way as those born to Jewish parents are Jewish .I do not care what your religion is ,I judge people solely on their behaviour ,but from what you write you do not agree ,you seem to believe regardless of ones path in life ones religion defines good or evil -sick noa !

Noa Zrk

Oh the problem of being a religiously tolerant empire and advanced civilisation, balancing tolerance and diversity throughout; including a far distant, tribal and intellectually backward eastern province.

At the request of the local administration the governor executes the leader of an intolerant religious fringe group. Subsequently the fringe group's religious power grows exponentially, first threatening and then usurping and destroying the empire, its many religions and beliefs, replacing them with a stultifying intellectual homogeneity.

How should civilisation that empire represents protect itself?

Verity

Noa Zrk - Indeed, that match is out of the box and ready to be struck by any fine American with the will.

I agree, of course, that it is not the business, and nor is it within the power, of anyone other than the victims' families to forgive these desert thugs, and I doubt that they will hear a single voice of forgiveness among these shockingly bereaved families.

The Gainesville pastor, with his obstinacy and his clarity of thought, has played a key role.

Verity

An absolutely fascinating post, written by Dinesh d'Souza on Samizdata and posted on Samizdata by Jonathan Pearce:

"Colonialism today is a dead issue. No one cares about it except the man in the White House. He is the last anticolonial. Emerging market economies such as China, India, Chile and Indonesia have solved the problem of backwardness; they are exploiting their labor advantage and growing much faster than the U.S. If America is going to remain on top, we have to compete in an increasingly tough environment. But instead of readying us for the challenge, our President is trapped in his father's time machine. Incredibly, the U.S. is being ruled according to the dreams of a Luo tribesman of the 1950s. This philandering, inebriated African socialist, who raged against the world for denying him the realization of his anticolonial ambitions, is now setting the nation's agenda through the reincarnation of his dreams in his son. The son makes it happen, but he candidly admits he is only living out his father's dream. The invisible father provides the inspiration, and the son dutifully gets the job done. America today is governed by a ghost."
- Dinesh D'Souza.

Those mid-term elections in November should be interesting. - JP

Noa Zrk

One reads and posts on CH for an exchange of views,with like minds, both conservative and not, for debate and the development of political and societal ideas, oh and for its wisdom, wit and humour.
Unfortunately the latter is not universal.
The Falstaff of self satisfied complacency, the guardian of claptrap, can often be found here, slurping on its grounds and complaining about how much its goodness is misunderstood by its fellows.
Its intellectually sterile mind invariably substitutes personal abuse for counter argument and, in the absence of original thought quotes the thoughts of others as 'conclusive' proof of the superiority of their own views.

Unable to understand a contrary viewpoint, it resorts, pathetically, to some pretended goodness, a 'higher' morality by which it seeks to abuse those who do not share its view.

Sadly, such a mind provides no original insight or challenge, no ideas that provoke, illuminate or delight.

Intellectually it compares to a sticky toffee pudding, coated with curdled custard, remarkable for its indescribable indigestibility.

Noa Zrk

The burning of korans has been equated with the burning of books in nazi Germany.
This is incorrect. In Germany the burning of books was state-orchestrated, part of a phased attack on jewish culture.

This is entirely different from, in fact the complete opposite of, the symbolic rejection by individuals of the practitioners of a brutal, aggressive and creed to impose on and dominate them.
That such a rejection inspires murderous fury in the hearts and minds of its followers merely demonstrates the severity of the threat we face and our that it is our responsibility to oppose it as implacably as its followers advocate it.

Noa Zrk

Verity September 11th, 2010 8:44pm

A chillingly insightful, and evidentially sustainable post.

Noa Zrk

Phil burbles
"..I do not blame every Muslim on earth for what they do ,So many are born to Muslim parents and have no choice ,they are Muslims in the same way as those born to Jewish parents are Jewish .I do not care what your religion is ,I judge people solely on their behaviour ,but from what you write you do not agree ,you seem to believe regardless of ones path in life ones religion defines good or evil -sick noa !.."

Not so, the identification and comprehensive renunciation of such 'evil' is the moral and intellectual responsibility of every human being.

So kindly identify some of the no doubt many influential muslims, muslim states and organisations and ex-muslims who have done so publicly and irrevocably. sad deluded phil!

phil

Noa Zrk
September 11th, 2010 9:37pm-
noa I accept your hate gladly if it makes you feel better ,others will know you are cringing and lashing out because you know you are wrong ,your insults are becoming exponential and you seem to be running out of new ones ,so sorry if I laugh -you will have heard the story of Johnny marching out of step in his platoon and his mum saying "there goes my son the only one in step" -
---------------------
Try a survey on the internet and find out how many agree with your views-I suspect it will not be even a shock to you how appalling they are seen to be ,anyway do not let the moderator feel I will be upset by your ad hominem attacks ,because I am not, just amused by a playground gang agreeing with each other as to the rightness of their truly pathetic cause -at least I hope you joined in with my prayer ,there need be no argument about that .

phil

Noa Zrk
September 11th, 2010 9:04pm Report this comment

"The burning of korans has been equated with the burning of books in nazi Germany.
This is incorrect. In Germany the burning of books was state-orchestrated, part of a phased attack on jewish culture.

This is entirely different from, in fact the complete opposite of, the symbolic rejection by individuals of the practitioners of a brutal, aggressive and creed to impose on and dominate them.
That such a rejection inspires murderous fury in the hearts and minds of its followers merely demonstrates the severity of the threat we face and our that it is our responsibility to oppose it as implacably as its followers advocate it."
---
I do not intend to get into your stylised method of debate -insults -but I will say that this last outburst is so far off the mark as to be truly incredible -You refer to practitioners when in fact it is the holy book of the Muslim people that is the subject of such debate not the practitioners -You well know that I do not agree with what little I admittedly know of the Koran and I would bet neither do you ,nor do I accept the disgraceful interpretation of the militant Islamists is the same as those who prefer a life in peace with those that are of a different faith .You seem to have decided that all Muslims wish to wage war upon us and therefore it is acceptable to burn their book ,where is the difference ,that you seek to hide from ,when the books were burned in 1938?.Why not try an answer without the words burbling ,claptrap ,falstaff ,slurping ,sterile etc etc ad infinitum.it certainly would be more impressive .If you cannot help the insults feel free to go ahead ,I have read about this problem and sympathise ,but I have no wish to join in, just find an answer.

Verity

Noa Zrk and anyone who wants to read responses, if any, to Dinesh D'Souza's finely wielded scalpel post, posted here above, can go to Samizdata.net

Noa Zrk

phil

" Noa Zrk
September 10th, 2010 11:39pm-noa my dear..."

What ill-mannered boorish impertinence!

We are not now and will not be on personal terms of any familiarity, let alone one in which personal endearments are permitted or expressed.

Should this be your way of coming out of the closet and advising CHrs' that you are a member of that labour conceived grouplet which terms itself the LGBT community kindly do so without inferring any relationdhip with me.

Verity

For anyone wanting to follow the respondent comments on the original post on Samizdata:

http://www.samizdata.net/mt/93uhdy736.cgi?entry_id=13588

Derek

Peter from Maidstone wrote: "It doesn't strike me that 'Never forgive, never forget' has anything to do with our Western Christian culture."

Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". He did not say "Father forgive them even though they know very well what they are doing".

I would also like to point out that our civilization is Judaeo/Graeco/Christian - and the Old Testament and the great histories and literature of the ancient Greeks leave plenty of scope for saying "Never forgive, never forget" while remaining soundly within the core of Western civilization.

*****

To our babbling friend, I would recommend that he take a break of, say, a year to write a critique of the morality of Charles Martel in engaging in the Battle of Tours. This will do him no good, but will provide us with some relief.

I moved recently from Shanghai to another, and I have to say more pleasant, city in China bringing two books with me which I am now reading closely and which in my opinion, complement each other: "The Closing of the American Mind" by Allan Bloom and the novel by Tom Wolfe "I Am Charlotte Simmons" They both treat of the disaster that has befallen our civilization. They apply, again in my view, mutatis mutandis to the catastrophic situation in which England finds its civilization and, perhaps,its life. They also explain the pusillanimity and self-regard in our loquacious interlocutor and in those others who, like our revered, provisional editor, renege on their promises to face contentious matters squarely.

*****

Thanks to Noa Zrk for the heads-up on Migrationwatch. Sorry about 'er indoors.

Herbert Thornton

Every time there is discussion of extremist Islam and terrorism, many people insist on drawing a distinction between "harmless" and "fanatically dangerous" Muslims. I cannot see the point of it. I think that the real problem is not much affected by the relative numbers of the harmless and the extremely dangerous elements because the latter are already so numerous.

If we are going to look reality in the face - which so many in the west seem determined not to do - we surely need to ask - what will happen when, as seems more and more likely, the extremist components come into possession of nuclear weapons? Is the reality that they will use them? Certainly, the moderate Muslims will be unable to stop them - indeed if they do try to impede them, they are just as likely to become victims of the extremists as we are.

Imagine, if you will, that you wake up to the news that a nuclear bomb has (presumably after being smuggled in) been detonated in Liverpool, (or Marseilles, or Amsterdam or San Francisco) and that in various Islamic communities around the world, people have been seen dancing in the streets. Then - unless perhaps some madman like Ahmedinajad claims responsibility - there will be the question of which Islamic country or community to blame - or even whether the weapon had been exported by North Korea. Doubtless, Pakistan will deny having any connection with it as will Iran and North Korea. So think about it - how prepared is the west to deal with such a situation? How do you think the victim country (or the west as a whole) will respond? Short of an abject western surrender, will an all-out nuclear exchange aimed at eliminating all the possible sources be the only possibility?

Noa Zrk

Herbert Thornton
"...will an all-out nuclear exchange aimed at eliminating all the possible sources be the only possibility?..."

Not in the UK. Even during the brief transitional period in which we retain a nuclear capability before the present government abolishes it one cannot conceive that either the will to use them exists or that ICBMs are appropriate to the task.
Far more likely is the scenario whereby the non muslim population, post-apocalypticly, directly assumes the functions of its incompetent government and divests itself of the 5th column within.

Derek

"The latest findings of Eurobarometer, the EU’s own polling organisation, show that less than half its citizens now believe it is a “good thing”. In many countries, its popularity is at record lows, and only 19 per cent see the EU as “democratic” (in Britain, Finland and Latvia this is as low as 10 per cent). " (Christopher Booker. Daily Telegraph)

Could that 10% in Great Britain be our political class?

***

Incidentally, someone in a post above ascribed the book burnings in Germany in the 1930s to the government. I may be wrong but I believe they were actually initiated by students.

The man who "united China" (under himself of course) Chin Shi Huang, is said to have gone one better and destroyed not only the books but the intellectuals who read them.

In the run-up to the election, there was much talk of re-examining our constitution. Not heard much about that since. Better to start with ancient Greece leavened with study of the Old Testament and our own history. And we need some noble spirits - where the hell we going to find them!

phil

Noa Zrk
September 12th, 2010 1:27am Report this comment

phil

" Noa Zrk
September 10th, 2010 11:39pm-noa my dear..."--My one little foray into your world of sarcasm and you are immediately hooked -you most certainly are not" my dear ",even though you probably seek my approval -but to disappoint you twice-I do not want to join your LGBT GROUP in fact it is the first I have heard of it ,but I do believe in live and let live so I hope you enjoy your membership .
-------------------------
You are appearing desperate now noa ,maybe if you went into a pub ,got on a bus ,stood at Hyde Park corner, any of those and shouted out your opinions you would find out very soon what this world thought of them .I advise a crash helmet ,a riot shield and a very fast bike as your opinion of yourself will soon be shown to be that in fact you are a legend only in your own lunch box .Maybe derek will stand by your side there and who knows else as I do not know how many are in your LGBT CLUB ----The pastor could take prayers and I know who would make the tea..
----------------------
Now noa do you think I can revert to posting something of substance rather than this silly exchange of childish wit that you so enjoy ,you must know by now that your "amusing barbs" are wasted on me and that you get the worst of it, it is your image that is so important to you here, not mine ,and you must realise how ridiculous you appear in spite of the cabal support -mine is from more or less the whole world outside this small group that are indulged because the magazine wishes to allow free speech .I support that admirable idea ,but you abuse it .Now I think it is high time we gave the moderator a rest .

Frank Sutton

Pastor Jones has shown a gift for publicity that would credit Malcolm Maclaren. If he's an impressario, and if his small congregation can muster three or four guitar wielders and drum thumpers (if not, hold auditions) then the resulting combo - Koran in Flames - will quickly light the tinder of the anarcho-evangelist punk scene.
Speed is of the essence, before fickle tastes move on to techno jihad, muezzin mood music or whatever.
What's interesting is how one back-woods cleric can incite world wide outrage - those exciotable mossies, so eager to be offended, buttons so ready to be pushed, so keen for Pastor Jones' star to shine on the world stage.
There must be a marketing opportunity here...

phil

Derek
September 12th, 2010 3:02am-----I see you are back to your self indulgent offerings of advice to me ,I spent a life being well paid for giving mine and never found the need for taking the kind you are able to dispense ,nor any complaints with what I gave .You are somewhere down the pecking order of this cabal so I find it rather presumptuous that you wish to jump the queue.May I suggest you stay with the sticky rice ,it may help with the constipation of the mind and the babbling that the fried type is causing you .
-------------
You are better served by staying with the more sensible writing that I have seen you are capable of rather than this knee jerk sarcasm at the expense of not only me, but the editor ,perhaps this cabal virus is uncontrollable ,noa knows everything ,maybe he can prescribe .
----------------------------------
btw do you not find it amazing how many of you have addressed me after I disagreed with the ideas of the Pastor ,how many would I get if I abused the memory of Pol Pot ? or Ceaucesco .

Nicholas

"Imagine, if you will, that you wake up to the news that a nuclear bomb has (presumably after being smuggled in) been detonated in Liverpool, (or Marseilles, or Amsterdam or San Francisco) and that in various Islamic communities around the world, people have been seen dancing in the streets . . . " etc.

We already know, because although not a nuclear bomb, there was 9/11. It is amazing how the impact of this mass murder on the collective mind of the West has now diminished to the point where leftist protestors bleating for Islam are allowed to demonstrate unscathed on the anniversary of that great outrage against humanity perpetrated wholly in its name. Reverse the circumstances and put them as a Christian crowd in a Muslim country and they would have been torn limb from limb. We all know this so why the ridiculous pretence?

There was a dramatisation of the 9/11 terrorist plot on TV last night but I couldn't watch it because I felt such fear and loathing for those responsible and, yes, for the religion they purport to represent. This is the "phobia" that Patricia Shaw El-Zatmah complains is unwarranted but which I am unashamed of. It is a "phobia" turning to visceral hatred and I am unashamed of that too. Don't make me the villain, Palestinian Mother, I haven't bombed or beheaded anybody for my religion and I don't intend to. My crime is to disagree with you, or to not submit to your leftist view of the world, or to not relinquish my disgust (and the right to express it) for the murdering terrorists who you excuse and defend and for whose outrages Islamic crowds dance and cheer on our TV screens. Over 13 years New Labour as the British arm of World Socialism, attempted to legislate those freedoms from me, to make it a criminal offence for me to openly express any hatred towards a religion in whose name fellow human beings have been enslaved, oppressed, tortured and murdered for centuries. That is a measure of their twisted purpose, to silence the victims whilst those responsible are free to continue their grisly work.

Linda Smith

Phil, you admit “you well know that |I do not agree with what little I admittedly know of the Koran and I would bet neither do you, nor do I accept the disgraceful interpretation of the militant Islamists is the same as those who prefer a life in peace with those that are of a different faith.”

You make yourself ridiculous in making assertions on subjects about which you admit you know little.
I suggest you acquaint yourself better with the Koran so that you understand that what you call “the disgraceful interpretation” is what is unambiguously written in the Koran- that the earlier peaceful verses are abrogated (replaced) by the later verses advocating violence against the unbeliever.

Here is a useful link http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101.html

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Nicholas: It was fortunate that I read your excellent posting (12:31p.m.). I'd decided to give up on the CH Wall today because it has become infected with mainly rubbish, and it wasn't even funny garbage, just purile and sick. Your posting went straight to the heart of things, and it is heartbreaking to think how naive and docile Mr and Mrs Average have become after those years of NuLabour indoctrination.

phil

Anne Wotana Kaye 1
September 12th, 2010 2:30pm-Is this a question of the teapot calling the kettle black ? you do not need to reply I just needed a laugh and you turned up just in time.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

phil: Now what rattled your cage? Didn't see you mentioned. If the cap fits wear it - you big girl's blouse! I don't usually respond to your bleats, but this was irresistable.

phil

Linda Smith
September 12th, 2010 2:30pm You have waited to be able to say something sarcastic because I scolded you for your childish attack on Augustus, and earlier, on all Muslims regardless of their individual behaviour -Now hear this once and for all I do not want any lessons from you and from what I have seen on more than one thread, nor does anyone else .I will continue to treat each person on an individual basis in spite of your desperate desire to condemn every Muslim on this earth to your appalling interpretation of their religion ..
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I know many Christians ,Jews and Muslims who wish to live in peace and harmony with one another ,so grit your teeth and try and keep your misery to yourself ,or write to those on this wall who think like you ,happiness is guaranteed
.I see you regularly launching tirades on Mel,s threads in "support" of Israel and Jews but against Islam ,do you think any of us there are not embarrassed by what you say ,I certainly am ,and I believe it just causes a bigger divide .The help you give is only to the bigots and I have seen enough of them lately without you adding to the list Now do not bother me again ok?

EC

Did anyone else view "The Last Night of the Proms" last night? I felt that it was all a little bit flat as compared to some years ago with Colin Davis etc. Yet another thing that the "progressives" at the BBC have tampered with. The one night of the year we are "allowed" to be British and the BBC have buggered it up. Shame.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

EC: I agree with you. It's getting ridiculous, but I must sound like a Grumpy Old Woman about all the things that have been ruined and dumbed down. I recall standing up in "the gods" at the Royal Albert Hall and the Proms were like music brought from heaven. The atmosphere, the orchestra, the joy in an audience which had recently survived a terrible World War. We all sang together at the end, and I think everybody there was transported for a few hours to a land of hope and glory.

EC

Anne Wotana Kaye 1, September 12th, 2010 2:30pm

I agree, it was a great post from Nicholas. I'm not a particularly religious man but perhaps if we all prayed for phil it might help. eg. if he got stuck in a lift with Patricia Shaw over the weekend it might give you some respite from his insults.

Verity

Superb posts from Derek and Nicholas.

Whoever referred to the pastor who was going to have a public bonfire of the piece of weird known as the koran as "backwoods" is an awfully trite thinker. Gainesville is a big city. Just because someone holds an opinion contrary to your own doesn't mean he's a hick. The pastor seems to be a very clear-headed person to me. He hasn't been bamboozled by the "religion of peace" ca-ca in which the left (and islam itself) clothes this disgusting, primitive religion and its disgusting, primitive, not to say very, very weird, diety thingy. What is more, he got a result. In private industry, you get a big bonus for that.

I hope some of our Coffee Housers went to my link above to Samizdata. It's intelligent and the regulars have some astute thinking on this.

phil

EC
September 12th, 2010 3:47pm May I leave the lift trip to you and patricia -you are more of the same type just opposite ends of the scale -I would have nothing in common with either of you ,,could you let her have a membership of your cabal perchance?
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AWK couldn't help it I ,you know the teapot thing ?,its just a picture that flits in front of my eyes when I see your posts .Oh ,please not a blouse ,that's for noa, not me ,the uniform of his LGBT exclusive club. Anyway enough for this week ,I am tiring of this nonsense -it at least has given the brain a chance to exercise -(oh dear a chance for another member to say something stupid ),but what the hell who cares ?-finally hope you managed a mishaberach (prayer)like I suggested -I doubt anyone else did

Beer Moth

Nicholas

Well said that man.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

EC: :3:47 pm A "Cruel and unusual punishment" for both parties. I do not speak for others, unlike some, but personally I'd go for it.
Phil: Seriously, for a moment, this teapot obsession is quite worrying. Liquids, tea... I'm in no way pointing a finger, but it could indicate past or present bed wetting.

phil

Anne Wotana Kaye 1
September 12th, 2010 5:10pm-I hadn`t thought of it in that way, sorry if it is affecting you like that . I will try to picture a trolley bus and maybe you will be better soon .Hope you got a good reception last thursday or didnt you go?

Rhoda Klapp

I usually consider myself to have better-than-average comprehension, but bloody hell!

Herbert Thornton

I've just read Ron Liddle's presumably tongue-in-cheek piece about cats. It reminded me of the Hong Kong blogger, Hemlock, and what he used to write about dogs. His blog was shut down some time ago, but a Google search not only makes me think it may have been resurrected, but led me to a piece that contains some references to Mohammedanism that I feel sure will appeal to Verity, AWK and others of similar mind - http://biglychee.com/

Noa Zrk

Derek

You comment, that the nazi book burning was initiated by students rather than government. l said it was 'state orchestrated'.
We are I believe, both correct, the propaganda arm of the German Students Association, which was a nazi controlled and directed organisation, promulgated the events, with Goebbels making a leading speech on 10th May 1933 in Berlin, as burnings took place across Germany.

“No to decadence and moral corruption!” he enjoined the crowd. “Yes to decency and morality in family and state!"

Much like the sentiments of the Custard Curdler in fact.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Herbert Thornton: Thanks, Herbert.
THere's a lot of material so I've bookmarked it. Any suggestions as to what I read first?
Thanks

egh

Verity - I finally caught up on Pastor Jones and am quite proud of him! But Gainesville - "a big city"? Not when I lived there, it wasn't - though admittedly that was a few years ago. I must say I had the misfortune to meet some unpleasant hicks there, too; that's where I learned what a redneck is. However, the university is well regarded; who knows what said hicks would be without it!

It's true, of course, that 'Gator-land (yes, of Gatorade) might be bigger than the capital of Fla. Don't blink if you drive through central Tallahassee - you might miss 'Nole country!

Frank Sutton

Verity @ 4.06 pm "Whoever referred to the pastor "backwoods" is an awfully trite thinker"

Oh dear - that was me.
I was alluding to the way he's depicted in the mainstream media,and pointing out that to go from unheard-of to worldwide controversialist in a few days was a feat that rivaled any of the late great Malcolm Maclaren's publicity stunts.

Herbert Thornton

AWK - The item I had in mind was the one headed "Long-Overdue Fatwa, Jihad to be Declared on Red Bull?". A couple of clicks down, it includes a picture of the rear end of an animal that I understand Mohammedans dislike....

Verity

Sorry, chaps, I knew that Gainsville will not be knocking NY or Paris into a cocked hat ... and overstated my case. I meant that just because it was a Florida town that some British hadn't heard of doesn't mean that anyone hailing from there is a hick.

The pastor demonstrates that you don't have to be a bien-pensant to have your head screwed on. And he did actually make a difference. We dn't know what happened behind the scenes, but he strikes me as a man who would have stuck to his guns unless he had suddenly gained a concession that he wanted to think about.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Herbert Thornton; Great. I'll check it out.

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Herbert Thornton: The the illustration was frightful. Must admit that with your dignified name and generally fine, erudite postings I was quite taken aback!

Herbert Thornton

AWK -

The comment - "If it could talk....it would say ‘Salaam Alaikum’" got my attention - as did Hemlock's Verity-approved use of "Mohammedan".

phil

Whilst reading so much of the nonsense this week .I realised that when writing to each person I actually visualised them in an amusing form ,just as noa no doubts sees me in his latest attempt at humour as a custard curdler ,better than usual !!
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My favourite books are written by a man called Victor Mollo whose subject is bridge ,he illustrates the hands that he presents with characters in the form of animals such as the Hideous Hog ,a bully and glutton and the best player,Timothy the toucan ,a mild retiring man who is clueless and Rueful Rabbit who does everything wrong but falls on his feet. There are many others such as Walter theWalrus a retired accountant since the day he qualified ,and not forgetting the supercilious Oxbridge student whose future is in his past . The book gives great colour to the serious writing ,so I thought I might share my visions with you ,provided a sense of humour has not deserted you all ,and of course you may retaliate as you mostly do . Any of you who play bridge would be well advised to buy at least one of the series ,they are very instructive and highly amusing .
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We need a place for these characters so I will start with the Ark ,which is run by a man who has just been deposed in the Guinness book of records as the worlds most pompous man by Peter Mandelson -his boat has in it one hyena ,one hippo ,an elderly lion who has lost his teeth together with an incredible animal who once was an ostrich and has morphed into a chimp,three wise owls (Daniel,Herbert and Nicholas will not mind that), one or two water buffaloes ,alongside a number of vultures and a serpent which fell out over the Saudi desert before it could get in .A small snapping turtle which usually resides in Mels threads was last seen clinging on to the stern ,Yogi the bear makes an occasional show too and I cannot leave out our resident moth .
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.The Ark is visited occasionally by a few wonderful angels also ,who are normally hovering over Mels columns .---Thuclydes ,I find it hard to visualise you ,as you are the victim of incessant bullying and I do not think the picture of a dove does you justice .Peter you are amongst the angels ,so for the time being with the indulgence of the moderator, and who unlike certain football managers does not like a "bung",but does like a joke - I will rest and sit back with my many happy memories of the insults ,and occasional receipt of sanity that I have enjoyed recently .Pick your own character ,.enjoy and for heavens sake smile .