Burning the Koran

DaveL

When does tolerance become the wrong response?

TomTom

Heinrich Heine: "Those who begin by burning books will end by burning people"

Goebbels liked arranging Book-Burning Sessions and for the sensitivity of our culture to Libricide it is surprising it is not illegal in The West.

Then again Douglas Hurd as a supine Home Secretary let Satantic Verses be burned in front of Bradford City Hall without invoking The Public Order Act. The message was clear - Retreat on All Fronts.

There is no 1st Amendment Freedom in burning books - it is a protection to let people READ books - not to destroy them

Vulture

While the antics of this redneck Reverend is in poor taste and all that, it pales into insignificance besides the real abominations visited on a daily basis on Christian ( and other religions) in the Islamic world. Murders, abductions, bombings, Church burnings occur on a regular basis in Iraq and Pakistan to name but two.

And see how far you get if you try to build a Church in Saudi Arabia - homeland of the 9/11 mass murderers.

Why doesn't Hilary Clinton and our Dhimmi liberal ruling elite get their knickers in a twist about these real atrocities? Your call for tolerance is splendid - but tolerance is a two-way street and there is precious little 'tolerance' of any Faith other than their own displayed by Muslims.

I for one am sick and tired of our slobbering grovelling to this ridiculopus religion and its backward, totalitarian followers. If in his crude way Pastor Jones is saying that, then more power to his matches.

strapworld

At least the US has a Constitution. What would happen if a Vicar, Pastor or Priest in a church somewhere within the United Kingdom, in a protest pointing out that Christianity is banned in Muslim Countries, where no permission would be given to erect a Christian Church!,that we do not appear to have a Muslim organisation within the UK publicly backing, say, help for hero's!

I am afraid such a protest would be banned. If it went ahead the priest etc would be arrested and charged with a public order offence!

Far better, Mr Blackburn, surely to live in a free country where one is able to freely express one's views?

You talk about us winning an intellectual argument based on tolerance and freedom above bigotry and fear. But we have lost that argument because there is nobody willing to express it. I am afraid it is all one way traffic.

When the detestable English Nationalists or whatever they call themselves had a demonstration in Leeds and they were met by anti facist and muslim groups...which group was targetted by the police? How many muslims are ever arrested? There are so many examples of the indigenous population being the one's targetted. We had better be careful or the backlash, should it come could be terrible!

If we cannot properly debate immigration and how it has changed our country, and I would argue not for the better!- If the grand editor of the Spectator was obviously banned from writing his promised article on immigration, what chance have we the ordinary people got in expressing our views.

Do we have to wait until those that have no allegiance to our country completely control due to the weakness nay cowardly actions of our politicians?

This weakness spreads right across Europe. It needs to be dealt with now, whilst it can.

So whilst I do not see the point of burning 100 Korans, I understand their frustrations and anger. I would suggested that anger and frustration is felt by a great many citizens of the once Great Britain!

AndyLeeds

One does not approve of book burning, which is usually the sport of tyrants and the ignorant. I remember very well watching Muslims burning copies of Salman Rushdie's 'Satanic Verses' by Bradford Town Hall.

It is interesting to note that many, you included, urge tolerance but wherever Islam is dominant one seldom sees such tolerance. We must allow a Mosque to be built within yards of Ground Zero (a very insulting and insensitive thing to demand) and yet you cannot build a church, nor hold a Christian act of worship, in Saudi Arabia. So where is Muslim tolerance and respect for Christians ? Islam desperately needs a reformation, and a radical one at that.

Brit Abroad

Ground Zero Mosque

A brilliant tag, developed by the American right and promulgated thoughtlessly by lazy journalists.
It is neither at Ground Zero, nor is it a Mosque. It is a Islamic Community centre, 80% of which will be used for recreational meetings, and only 20% of which will be a private prayer room; not a Mosque. Furthermore, its proposed location is nearly 3 blocks from the north-west extremity of 'Ground Zero', in an area lacking in public or private funding, whose buildings have fallen derelict in recent years. It is invisible from any vantage point at Ground Zero, and impossible to stumble upon when visiting the planned memorial from any of New York's Subway station.
I suggest, David Blackburn, that you do some of your own research, rather than accepting Fox's terms of reference.

Paul Huxley

I'm not a burn-the-koran kind of person (although I'm all for legitimate criticism of it). Regardless of the questionable wisdom of the church's actions, they are doing no wrong by the laws of America. That all the big guns are coming out to criticise this church of 50 people, pleading them to stop, shows that there is a serious clash of civilisations, and the West is quickly surrendering.

David Bouvier

If you are pleading for tolerance, please hold everyone to the same standards and including the population of the middle east and asia, where it would not be safe for this chap to host a theological debate, let alone burn a printing of "The Koran". Or do you think we are superior people with superior responsibilities to 'those people'?

Do you really believe that ordinary Ahmed will decide to go postal in Afghanistan - or is it that pre-existing insurgents will issue PR statements associating the book burning with attacks that would have happened sooner or later anyway?

I think the idea of a unipolar conflict between the cuddlesome and the mean is an complacent simplification. There are many agendas, many interests, competing societies, and politicians who cant resist playing with fire.

And the no-doubt ghastly priest involved probably disagrees profoundly with your analysis - in which case we have a conversation of the deaf. What can you say to him that starts from premises he accepts?

You acknowledge his liberty to burn paper and ink if he chooses. He wishes to do so no doubt for political and PR reasons (oh, liberty is ok no so long as it isn't politically important - the Chinese model). You think it is bad taste and have said so.

Do you want to live in a society where dramatic political gestures that are entirely legal are non-the-less suppressed by some circle-of-silence imposed on "unwise" or "dangerous" thoughts?

What is the definition of appeasement? When do you realise that is what you are doing?

Alexandrovich

Islam is often on the side of moderation? The other one has bells on - pull that.
I think people are mightily sick of turning the other cheek, as we were asked to do when copies of The Satanic Verses were burnt on the streets of Europe.

Rhoda Klapp

Agreed the Koran burning is stupid and provocative. But this piece shows little understanding of the struggle. The war on terror was always a misnomer. Terror is merely a tactic, and usually a tactic of weakness. The threat to my way of life is not from terror, which can never defeat us so long as we are resolute, but form creeping salami-slicing encroachment by non-militant zealots. Against which we seem to have no defence right now, as any resolution is deprecated by the quislings on our own side.

It is amazing to me that we cannot recognise the same old good cop/bad cop, militant wing/political wing approach this time, despite the times we have seen it before.

Austin Barry

'Islam, for all its faults, can, and often is, on the side of moderation.'

It is sanguine, misguided views like this that already has the West donning its orange jumpsuit and kneeling before the implacable forces of Islam.

Pastor Terry Jones is a twit, but where was the grandstanding condemnation of the Great and the Good (who are truly terrified of Islam) when Rushdie's book was being incinerated across the Islamic world?

Derek Pasquill

"Islam, for all its faults, can, and often is, on the side of moderation"

Such a statement requires a lot more evidence, particularly of a practical nature, before it can be accepted as it stands. A siginificant part of the problem is that leaders produced by the Muslim community do not inspire confidence that they understand the word 'moderation' in the sense used by their counterparts in Western democracies.

A question of translation as well as leadership.

michael

Let him burn his books.

I've no doubt the ensuing fatwa will be a model of tolerance, piety, and an out-pouring of peace and goodwill to all.

Jez

"Just as it is unwise to build with provocative intent a mosque near the site of Ground Zero, so too for a Christian minister to burn the Koran as a publicity stunt."

Yes, Yes and Yes.

At last someone see's it as it actually is;

"Just as it is unwise to build with *provocative intent* a mosque near the site of Ground Zero"

'Islamic Community Centre' or not.... it may be Liberal Left demand's that we eject all common-sense or moral values on a daily basis across the globe (or they'll blow you to smithereens with whatever ordnance they can lay thier hands on)- but mutual respect and decency would dictate that you do *not* rub the families noses of the murdered 9/11 victims in it.... or (*please* forgive me even contemplating this concept, you liberal reptiles?) on the majority of the country that this act is to be inflicted.

Sean Martin

There is a dangerous and astounding misunderstanding in recent times when it comes to Islam. One thing must be gotten straight or liberal democracies have no leg to stand on:

Islamism is not Islam and is a bastardisation of a religion which is perfectly compatible with our society as shown by the majority of its followers.

The constant confusion between the political ideology of Islamism and the religion of Islam only stirs bigotry and denies any chance of genuine toleration.

It is an outragous to claim that a mosque should not be built near ground zero - terrorism is the result of ISLAMISM not Islam.

The burning of the book should be advised against because it again confuses this boundary between a totalitarian political ideology and spiritual religion. Of course burning books should be allowed but it could be highly inflammatory - after all those that burned the Satanic Verses represented a radical minority of of Islamism rather than the genuine offence of the majority of Muslims.

If we don't make this differentiation, liberals will seem as bad as their opponents. We need to be ruthless with Islamists whose access to free speech poses a genuine threat to our democracy and protect ordinary Muslims who hold liberal values as dearly as myself or anyone else

Indiana Jones

"It tells me, that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try *reading* books instead of *burning* them!"

Alexandrovich

Okay Sean Martin, tell me who these 'ordinary Muslims who hold liberal values' are, then define liberal values and maybe I'll drop my guard.

denis cooper

The proposition that "the right to free speech is absolute when within the law" is internally inconsistent.

Logically one can say that "the right to free speech is absolute", or one can say that "the right to free speech is not absolute, but is constrained by the law"; but one cannot say that "The right to free speech is absolute, but constrained by the law" because a right which is subject to any constraints can no longer be considered an absolute right.

Clearly in the US the right to free speech is not absolute, but is constrained by the law, in particular the case law of the federal Supreme Court, albeit that those legal constraints are light compared to those in many other countries.

denis cooper

"The war against Islamism must not become a war against Islam; not least because the forces of moderation could not win such a war."

That's rather like saying "The war against Nazism must not become a war against Germany; not least because the forces of civilisation could not win such a war."

Just as the Nazis swam in the sea of Germany, grew powerful and eventually took control of all the resources of Germany and enlisted every German in the service of Nazism, so the Islamists swim in the sea of Islam, are growing more powerful and are bidding to take control of Islam and to enlist every Muslim in their service.

And in the same way that the defeat of Germany became a prerequisite for the defeat of Nazism, it may be that the defeat of Islam has already become a prerequisite for the defeat of the Islamists.

I can't say whether that's the case, but if so then the only alternative to a victorious war against Islam would be surrender to the Islamists, which is not something we should even contemplate.

Ronnie

So, now the Islamists have got us burning books and arguing amongst ourselves about it.

Setting the Nazis aside, do we have any examples of book burning that are positive exemplars of western values?

Book-burning signifies fear, fear of ideas. Are we afraid of ideas? Or have we simply run out of them in our lazy hysteria?

KB

This Koran burning is highly offensive. How can anybody not see that? I mean, imagine if somebody had done something similar to Christians, say, during a Republican administration. There's no way they would exhibit it at the finest museums or let the NEA throw $15,000 at it.

Dan Grover

I don't understand why everyone else keeps saying "Why should we preach tolerence - you couldn't build a church in Saudi Arabia!" - So? What does the policy of the kind of Saudi Arabia have to do with how we, as a civilisation, should approach Islam and extremism in Islam?

Tolerance isn't really tolerance if you're not having to tolerate something. The standards by which one lives their lives, and views others, should not be based upon how those others view the world - it's not a competition. If you think toleration is a good thing, then show toleration. If you don't, then don't. Whether they let you build a church in Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with it.

Jez

Ronnie,

You miss the point.

It's not fear driving these Bible belt nut jobs; it's simply to p*ss off the opposition. To check their outragous behaviour with more outragous behaviour.

It called; 'The real World'.

Dan Grover,

With all due respect may i ask; Do you work in a charity shop that just realies on the handout's of others.... hypothetically, one that wouldn't even prosecute shoplifters?

Tolerate everything, it's all free, just give it away?

DG Quote; "I don't understand why everyone else keeps saying "Why should we preach tolerence - you couldn't build a church in Saudi Arabia!" - So? What does the policy of the kind of Saudi Arabia have to do with how we, as a civilisation, should approach Islam and extremism in Islam? "

So you are in one sense saying we are civilised... thus maybe implying the inferiority of that (in this instance Saudi Arabia) culture- and then saying that as this 'uber' civilisation, aka the West should endure/tolerate that foreign culture over the wishes of the majority of ours.

Rubbish.

Andy

"it also furthers endanger US and Allied troops abroad and the population at home by inciting contemptible extremism"

How does it? You are talking about people that hate us regardless of any book-burning, piss-taking by Danish cartoonists etc.

Nicholas

"Terrorism is the result of ISLAMISM not Islam."

And the difference is? Until Islam cleans up its own extremist elements - visibly, vociferously and effectively - it is hardly surprising the two are conflated. Currently two cheeks of the same arse trying to force itself on Western civilisation using a variety of methods, some more visible and unpleasant than others. Intolerant of me? Yep. When tolerance is exploited by worm-tongued lefties and foreigners to impose their new brands of fascism on those long resident in these Isles then fire must be fought with fire. We didn't tolerate Nazi bombs - we shouldn't tolerate creeping (and creepy) Islamic intimidation.

Rhoda Klapp

It does challenge the imagination somewhat to think of some insurgent in possession of ammunition, guns and bombs deciding not to murder any western troops today because nobody burned any korans. I thhink their criterion is only the means, not a new motive for every day.

Ronnie

No Jez, I'm afraid it's you who is missing the point.

Dan Grover

Jez,

I think you must be confusing "things I said" with "things I didn't say". It's easy to do, but we should try to avoid it all the same.

I don't work in a charity shop, but you're confusing the word "tolerate" with "absolute anarchy". Toleration doesn't mean allowing families to kill men for sleeping with their virgin daughters. Toleration doesn't mean allowing Muslims to burn down churches. Toleration doesn't mean forcing children at schools to eat Halal meat because there are some muslims there. I don't know what I - or the dictionary - said to make you think otherwise, but toleration is about living along side those with whom you disagree, despite disagreeing with them, because you believe that people should have the freedom to believe whatever they want. I believe this, but this isn't just about Muslims. If my next door neighbour wants to believe in Cthulu, I don't care, despite thinking he's wrong. But that doesn't mean I think he should be free to kill in its name. Nor does it mean I think he doesn't deserve protection from the state if others want to harm him for his beliefs.

I also think you misread "a civilisation" as "the civilised", or something. I didn't say that we were the civilised ones vs. their lack of civilisation. I said we are a civilisation. And we are. It's not always cohesive, but generally speaking we're a liberal, open-minded civilisation that enjoys the views of others because it's only by witnessing views that differ from your own can yours ever adapt and fit those which work best. It works for society as much as for science. The Saudi's also have their own civilisation - it's just not "our" civilisation (unless you're a Saudi - but even then, I imagine there are plenty of Saudi's who'd love a bit of liberalism in their lives.)

The idea of picking and choosing what we "tolerate" is worrying for me. Today it's those nasty muslims with their bombs and their loud calls to prayer - tomorrow? Who knows. But I don't want the choice of what to tolerate in the hands of anyone but myself.

Robert Taggart

Burn the Koran + the Bible + the Tanakh + Mein Kampf + Das Kapital... !
As all these works are deemed sacred by some, methinks they be ripe for slaughter.

Alexandrovich

"But I don't want the choice of what to tolerate in the hands of anyone but myself."
And neither do I Dan Grover, neither do I.

TomTom

"It is neither at Ground Zero, nor is it a Mosque. It is a Islamic Community centre"

ALL mosques are "Islamic Community Centres" !!!

You really should know that mosques are armouries, banks, madrassas, doss houses, libraries, prayer rooms - they serve the Muslim Community - The Ummah

Paul Weston

denis cooper
September 8th, 2010 11:28am

Your comment is absolutely spot on.

This nonsense of absolving Islam and blaming Islamism simply has to stop.

The Koran contains many references to slaughter and holy war. Does the Koran promote Islam or Islamism?

The Prophet Mohammed was a warlord. By the time of his death he had militarily conquered most of the Pagan-Jewish-Christian tribes within the Arabian pennisular. Did Mohammed promote Islam or Islamism?

100 years after Mohammed's death his 4 suceeding Caliphs had militarily defeated North Africa, parts of Europe and encroached into the Indian sub-continent.

Did they represent Islam or Islamism?

The various self detonating suicide bombers across the world today ascribe their martydom to the Koran, the hadith, Mohammed and to Allah.

Do they represent Islam or Islamism?

Was Adolf Hitler a Nazi or a "Nazi-ist"

Grow up Mr Blackburn, your desire to whitewash the un-whitewashable is extremely dangerous.

Osred

Lets face it Mr Blackburn, until the Islamic world and its illusory 'vast majority of moderates' produce their equivalent of the New Testament, the Spectator and the rest of the vast majority of cowering media dhimmis will continue to chloroform the nation with articles like this.

London Calling

America has its fare share of crackpots and Pastor Jones is no exception. Currently there is a simmering frustration in parts of the US against the M&M’s, Muslims and Mexicans and unlike the British many Americans will express themselves in whatever form they choose, be it at T-Parties or otherwise. In some cases you could describe the following as the KKK unmasked hiding behind the banner of patriotism, such is the hatred and inevitable simmering frustration that will show it’s ugly head.

Unfortunately whilst there was a quick response by Hilary Clinton and religious leaders to condemn Pastor Jones, there will be many who believe that the three wise monkeys have evolved into don’t look, don’t speak and don’t listen, which is not tolerance but based on fear. We fear radical Islam, not moderate Islam, however the two are interwoven and just as the response in Afghanistan and Indonesia to condemn all Americans due to Pastor Jones, so do many in the West condemn Islam as a whole for radical Islam. Ignorance does not evolve.

David Cameron’s recent comments on Pakistan exporting terrorism prompted a backlash in Pakistan, he spoke the truth, but many questioned his diplomacy on the subject considering the Pakistani Government are also at war with terrorists.

The Truth is…you cannot speak it without consequences…however it is the small minds and the warped views of people like Pastor Jones who ignite religious hatred and receive unwelcome media attention and the ignorant will thrive on it on both sides.

Sean Martin

The Koran was a book written in a time of extreme instability and violence therefore it is completely inappropriate to use it as a literalist explanation for life as teh Wahabbi's do (not Deobandi's Jamaati's or Hizb ut-Tahrir might I add)

Anyway the old testament is full of stories of rape and pillage but we don't claim that Christianity is subverting our society do we? No because we sensibly split up extremists for moderate religious believers.

If you don;t think there are moderate Muslims who believe in liberal values that is truly worrying and you can't have met many Muslims. However if you want some evidence read "The Islamist" by Ed Husain; or go on to the Quillam Foundation website to read their work; or the Centre for Social Cohesion; or the work of Haris Rafiq - i could go on.

The threat is from a totalitarian political ideology not from the religion of Islam. Extremists simply work under this guise but they do not represent Islam at all. There is no "Clash of civilisations" only a clash of liberal democracy (comprising all faiths and creeds) against totalitarianism i.e. one of ideology.

I agree that we have to halt our relativism and deal with Islamism harshly (limit their freedom of speech/ ensure community and mosque leaders hold moderate views/ deport extremist speakers...) but we lose the war if we become Islamaphobic

Verity

Sean Martin - "Islamism is not Islam and is a bastardisation of a religion which is perfectly compatible with our society as shown by the majority of its followers."

"Islamism", Sean Martin, is a totally new concept by apologists to provide the islamics with an escape route in debates.

Get this: all of islam is the neoplasm "islamism" because the entire point of islam is the conquest of the entire world for allah. (What allah wants with it, we are never told.) Conversion by persuasion or by the sword. Witness the horror of Daniel Pearl and Ken Bigley ... and tens of thousands of others.

I have read of a theory by doctors who have read about mohammad's behaviour at the time, that he was an epileptic. (Absolutely no offence intended against those suffering from the medical condition of epilepsy. But in the days before medication, his behaviour during seizures could easily have convinced illiterate desert people that he was seeing visions and was a messenger from God.)

JJS

First, a quote from Reuters - "Germany's leading Jewish group condemned plans by a Florida pastor to burn the Koran on the anniversary of 9/11, saying it evoked the mass killings of Jews in the Holocaust that followed Nazi book burnings." I'm trying to think of an example where a Muslim group shows this kind of sensitivity to Jews. (Not coming up with one. Can anyone come to my rescue??) Instead what comes to mind are instances of holocaust denial.

streborjm

Much to agree with above, typically Nicolas 1.34.
But the one thing invariably missing from discussions of such problems - oops, nearly said "issues" - is clear, forthright,public and co-ordinated condemnation of violent aggression and covert subversion within some mosques and communities, by ordinary Muslims. They have as much responsibility to promote civic peace and "community cohesion" as the indigenous population; most of them in my experience are perfectly reasonable people, and at a local level this does seem to happen in many cases. But when big nasty stuff happens and gets into the media, we only ever hear aggressive polemics, dissembling and disingenuity or worse from Muslim "community leaders" and nauseating sanctimony from the usual (il)liberal suspects. Christianity has of course been just as bad in the past, but it didn't have the weapons and instant communications available to modern day religious nutters,
and the world cannot wait a few more hundred years for Islam to grow up. Tempting to go on, I know it's a bit more complicated than that, but hard not to despair and fear for what our children and grandchildren might have to deal with.
Oh well, onwards and upwards. How about a government grant to distribute the Speccie and Coffee House to the rest of the world? Couldn't cost any more than some of Brown's profligate lunacies.

porkbelly

Why would the so-called "moderate Muslims" be offended to the point of violence by the burning of a copy of the Koran by some Florida nutcase in a cheap suit? As "moderates", subscribing to the principles of tolerance, surely they would see this as the publicity stunt it is and shrug their shoulders? But the implicit assumption is that these "moderates" are but the blink of an eye from strapping on explosive vests, in which case one wonders just why we are supposed to be pandering to them unless it is abject fear.

Grudar

If it was OK for Iran's Ahmadinejad to say "Israel should be wiped from the pages of History", then surely it's OK for someone to say "Islam should be wiped from the pages of History".

TomTom

"The Koran was a book written in a time of extreme instability and violence"

Profoundly ignorant statement ! The Koran was not a book but a series of verses. It is not chronological. You should google "Satanic Verses" to see why Salman Rushdie's title is so provocative and why these Verses have been "hidden".

The Koran was created long after Mohammed when all versions of the verses were destroyed to create one uniform Arabic text.

The Koran is only regarded as genuine when in Arabic so burning a Penguin translation has no real meaning.

The Koran verses were written by a Nestorian Monk as Mohammed was a functional illiterate

Augustus

This seems a very stupid thing to do. Burning books is a page out of the Nazi era.
Common sense and the moral high ground should prevail, and not throw petrol on a fire. It's the Muslims who are the zealots.

Jez

The last line of defence;

"The idea of picking and choosing what we "tolerate" is worrying for me. Today it's those nasty muslims with their bombs and their loud calls to prayer - tomorrow? Who knows."

Who knows?

Who indeed..... 60 years of tolerance have got us Londistan, Bi-Monthly Paris bonfire nights and Dutch windmill being put out of fashion by the minaret.

Picking and choosing what we "tolerate" is what the liberal Left, MSM, big three mainstream political Parties have been been let loose to do for a long time now.

And look at the results.

Frank P

Sean Martin

"... but we lose the war if we become Islamaphobic."

First, as that argumentative bubble & squeak suggested, let us define our terms.

WTF do you mean by Islamaphobic [sic]?

It's a very silly word, used by socialists and their Muslim friends (or credulous and vulnerable students who are about to be raped, buggered or both, by academic Marxists looking for nookie and recruits to their perverted ideology). It is a word that was coined to intimidate tolerant people who would rather not offend anyone and 'turn the other cheek'. And you lot haven't even made up your mind how it should be spelled.
The word is a waste of cartridge ink on this blog, I assure you. We don't do toleration of evil here.

Most people on this site are grown up and are not afraid of offending people whose raison d'etre is to foist their culture and their primitive beliefs on the indigenous people and eradicate its native culture and benign religious tenets by a subtle blend of maniacal violence and demographic creep.

While I do not have much truck for Floridian preachers of another nutty persuasion, their threats are somewhat innocuous in comparison to the antics of the violent Islamic nuttery of the past few decades, particularly the 9/11 extravaganza - to name but one. That show burned a few books if I remember correctly - not to mention about three thousand people who owned them or kept them.

As for General Petraeus complaining that troops are in danger as a result of said Floridian nutter issuing threats to burn the Muzzies operations manual. Sorry but that's bollocks! If they were not in danger before the holy arsonist started to get leary, then what in shit's name are they spending US dollars over there in the war zone? May I suggest that the people who are threatening the General's troops should be taught a lesson about freedom of speech with a couple of blanket bombing sorties on them and theirs with some propaganda leaflets dropped separately afterwards to indicate that there's plenty more where that came from if they don't stop feckin' around. Winning hearts and minds? There was another general who expressed an opinion about that, if I remember correctly - and his gnarled fist was bigger than the cojones he had in mind.

We are at war (even you seem to have accepted that)! So stop preaching and chose your side. Sooner or later the blanket bombing will start and we should make every effort to ensure that the blanket in question isn't a Persian nuclear magic carpet, which is being assiduously woven at this very moment, while the Obamamessiah bows and scrapes to the wily weavers and their covert suppliers.

Ahmed Khan

@Augustus 5.42

‘This seems a very stupid thing to do. Burning books is a page out of the Nazi era.’

You are absolutely correct, but have you failed to grasp the fact that the CoffeeHouse have many fascist posters.

Many are just sympathizer's of fascist organization’s and I know one was an active member of the National Front who tried to terrorize Asians and Blacks in England, until that eventful day in 1974? When a pub with NF beasts drinking after a day of terrorizing Southall, West London, was burnt to ground. Oh yes I do have very clear memories!

Sean Martin

Tom Tom,

I apologies for using the term book, yo uare right about your history with the Koran. But anyway I think it is unfair to mark religious believers as a whole as extremist because of the sayings in a sacred texts. Most modern religious believers of all faiths do not follow these literally and accept they do not apply in the modern world (as i said earlier about the old testament).

Verity,

Islamism in the sense i use it (A totlaitarian political ideology under the guise of religion) has been around since the fall of teh Ottoman Caliphate. If you want to read about it look at: Lewis, P (2002) Islamic Britain ( J.B.Tauris Publishers, New York)Which will give you the history.

Aligning Muslims with Islamists is incredibly ignorant and dangerous in any search to combat extremism. I can understand why people on this thread make this judgement, as the mainstream media ever since Rushdie have presented those who shout loudest and burn books as representative of mainstream Islam; not to mention the cosying up of the government in the early 2000s to Islamists like Al Qaradawi (see Martin Bright's Policy Exchange report for that).

You guys should also read Gove's Celsius 7/7 to understand this vital issue properly

Verity

Even though some of my friends are Jewish, etc., the Jews have no special insight into this issue and to push themselves forward comparing the Florida preacher to Nazis is just plain daft. There isn't even the most tenuoous thread.

The atrocity against the Jews was done by people who had the power of the state at their service, and had a visceral, unreasoning hatred of the Jewish race.

Islam isn{t a race.

The Florida preacher's a freelance - not a state Nazi - independently making a protest against an atrocity that was committed against his country, and against another atrocity that is being planned by the same people, under the truly infantile guise of suing for peace.

It is absolutely ridiculous to bring the Jews in Germany and the Nazis into this. There is absolutely no point of reference that works, and what is more, it insults the Jews in Germany who were victimised for absolutely no reason except their race.

No one is victimising islam, but we are heartily disapproving of it, WITH SOUND REASON.

Baron

Rhoda Klapp at 10.07: “Terror is merely a tactic, and usually a tactic of weakness. The threat to my way of life is not from terror, which can never defeat us so long as we are resolute, but form creeping salami-slicing encroachment by non-militant zealots”.

spot on, Rhoda, except that the terror tactics have worked and still work, those who govern us can do bugger all what with the criminal justice system that doesn’t truly punish any miscreants, certainly not those who are often more than ready to die killing us.

the vast majority of Western Muslims have no desire to wage war on infidels and stuff, methinks, their affinity with Islam is however stronger than with our ‘all you need’s love’ pseudo-liberal construct. If they were to join us the Islamist zealots will hit them; siding with the zealots when called upon seems a preferred option, who could blame them, they mix with them every day.

the modern mutation of appeasement may succeed, who knows; if it fails the consequences may spill over beyond the mere unpleasant.

Kennedy

The thought that comes to me mind is St. Francis during the crusades.

St. Francis tried to preach peace.

The Sultan told him to walk along the carpet that was covered with crosses. Christians wouldn't step on the cross of Christ.

St. Francis walked along quite happily. He explained to the Sultan that the crosses on the carpet were the crosses on which the thieves were hung. He had no problem walking across and discussing Islam and Jesus with the Caliph.

Have Christians been reduced to this level?

We lost the symbolism argument with Rushdie.

We've allowed reactionaries on both sides to return us to the intellectual level of the eighth century.

Dimoto

Blimey ! David Blackburn has certainly released the hosts of loony ranters and wouldbe religious warriors !

My point is more practical.
It is not US armed forces and Americans at home, who will be put at risk by this provocative idiocy, (apparently supported by many on here), they can look after themselves, it is hundreds of thousands of expatriate Americans and other westerners, peaceably going about their business in dozens of Muslim countries.

I suppose the "Rev" would see them as evil for daring to live amongst Muslims.

Still, a few unprovoked attacks on innocent expats will allow the "warriors" and "defenders of western Kultur" to ramp up the rhetoric another notch.

Verity

In addition, no one has mentioned the sheer pig-ignorant impertinence of the islamics in trying to dictate how American behave in their own country. It's none of their business.

It is the business of the citizens of the state of Florida. Story. End of.

Richard of York

Simple burn one Koran for every USA flag or Union flag burnt by an islamist state sponsored radical.
I agree with Verity.......eee gods now I need a lie down.

Victor Southern

We could have a few threads a day about religious nuts in the Southern States. They propagate the most absurd views but gain adherents.

This is just another such self-made preacher. He does not represent the state in which he lives. Nevertheless he has had more attention than the Taliban mullahs when they destroyed the giant Buddhist figures by cannon shells.

JohnBUK

Sean Martin - Perhaps if just one "moderate Muslim" came out and said "let them burn the books, we'll turn the other cheek" or similar, I might go along with you. I suspect they will also be concerned for their own safety and therefore will not do so. In which case.......

TomTom

"and had a visceral, unreasoning hatred of the Jewish race."

Actually Verity it was Soviet Communism that created the hatred simply because the majority of ideologues around Lenin (purged by Stalin) were Jewish. Even Stalin had a "Jewish Doctors' Plot" in 1948-53 and planned to liquidate them when he was bumped off in 1953 (and hey presto the Korean War ended)

1923 was Hitler's Putsch in Munich; the Communists armed by Stalin staged theirs in Dortmund, Gera, Duisburg et al and Germany was disintegrating under Franco-Belgian Occupation....that was the root cause of the backlash

Dimoto

Judaism is a religion.
The concept of a "jewish race" was developed by early Zionists (probably drawing inspiration from German romanticism), and enthusiastically picked up by early German racists and later, the Nazis.
Jews, Christians and Muslims, (Buddhists, atheists and Moonies), native to modern Israel and the West bank, (i.e. not recent immigrants), are rigorously of the same semitic "race".
Although I don't see what that has to do with the subject.

Nicholas

Ahmed Khan - very interesting, But do you also know of any NF thugs who have murdered innocent people (cut their heads off on video), blown up nightclubs or crashed airliners full of people into buildings full of people? Save your outrage, chum, it means nothing in the context of YOUR religion's record of unabated murder, mayhem, terror and repression.

JS

Well, this is a point of reference, Verity: "...a visceral, unreasoning hatred of the Jewish race." People who share that are bound to have consequential similarities, I should think.

I don't think Jews claim a special insight, as you seem to think they do, but I would suggest that when you know that 6 million of your tribe were murdered, and that one of the iconic precursors to that extravaganza was the burning of books, I'm prepared to allow that Jews may have a certain sensitivity that one might want to take on board. Not to say they have, or claim to have all the answers....
To my mind the fact that Islam is not a state is not relevant to the particular question, though of course it is a very valid point in and of itself.

Hysteria

because we have the RIGHT to do something , doesn't mean we SHOULD do something - like, you know, build provocative buildings near a scene of a terrorist outrage, or burn a book...

Sean Martin

Frank P,

I use the term Islamophobic in its literal sense - a fear of Islam - which many commenters here obviously have as they think all Muslims are looking to subvert democracy ( or tacitly consent to terrorist action). I agree with you that this term is over-employed by the Left to often refer to any criticism (irrespective of how salient)of Muslims or their communities.

Your point about the dominating culture of Islam is a separate issue, which in parts I agree with you on. This is not down to a desire to Islamify the whole world however - it is an accident of history after thousands of temporary Muslim migrants were pressured into permanent stay in teh UK by the 1962 Immigration Act. Consequently segregated temporary migrant communities became permanent living areas which adopted little of British culture. However this is a different issue to terrorism and religious tolerance

Roy Smith

"Desist, and be more tolerant" . Toleration has passed its use-by date.
Better to burn the books and show a non-violent protest than set off explosives full of nails and such like in a crowded area.

Django Peg

Verity, you say that Islam is not a race. It is when it wants to be.

EyeSee

Look at it another way. If Muslims were to pull a bible burning stunt we would say it was deplorable and get on with our lives. It is the fanaticism that attaches itself to matters Islamic that is the problem. In what way should a Muslim have any issue, beyond a remark, with non-Muslims burning the Koran or whatever. It is because Muslims are being pushed to believe that the most important aspect of their religion is to destroy all other faiths. It means a world caliphate and that would mean burning an awful lot more than bibles. The Christian faith is based on the Bible being the story of God. The Koran is claimed as the literal word of God and so claims to be superior. If you read about the life of Mohammed you realise why that was important to him. And the rest is endless war.

Ahmed Khan

@Nicholas 11.21

You are absolutely correct. I know nothing of MY religion’s record of unabated murder, mayhem, terror and repression. By the way my religion is Judaism, perhaps you can enlighten me of the atrocities Jew’s have committed.

You are also correct that NF thugs did not chop off any one’s head but whichever angle you wish to look at, they were thugs, racist and terrorist.

Your argument of judging terrorist by the severity of their action is seriously flawed. Are you trying to tell me that because the IRA usually gave a advance warning to a Radio Station, they were not evil.

Ahmed Khan

@Nicholas 11.21

You are absolutely correct. I know nothing of MY religion’s record of unabated murder, mayhem, terror and repression. By the way my religion is Judaism, perhaps you can enlighten me of the atrocities Jew’s have committed.

You are also correct that NF thugs did not chop off any one’s head but whichever angle you wish to look at, they were thugs, racist and terrorist.

Your argument of judging terrorist by the severity of their action is seriously flawed. Are you trying to tell me that because the IRA usually gave a advance warning to a Radio Station, they were not evil.

JS

Ahmed Khan
September 9th, 2010 12:34pm

Sir, I find it extremely difficult to believe that you are Jewish -- for a number of reasons. But in particular there is one construction you have employed that I have never heard another Jew use before, that arouses suspicion. However, for purposes of courtesy, respect, decency and legality, I stop short of calling you a liar. I think I speak on behalf of almost all readers and contributors to this blog when I say that honest debate is what we come here for. Any form of lying, even such constructs as taqiyya and kitman -- which may be acceptable by certain institutions under certain circumstances, is not in the spirit of conversation here.

Nicholas

Ahmed Khan - NF as thugs, yes, as racists, yes; but as terrorists? Pull the other one, chum. Therefore there is no comparison with Islam or the IRA - although no doubt the Left wishes there to be. The Left continually attacks right wing extremists for their "unacceptable" beliefs whilst ignoring the terror acts of Islam and their other chums in murder outfits like the IRA. You should know it is not about what is done but who has done it (or reputed to have done it)! Leftist client/victim groups can do no wrong - their opponents can do no right.

I presumed from your name and defence of Islam that you were a muslim. Understandable in the circumstances I think. I stand corrected. Since my post was in that context there is absolutely no point in responding on Jewish terror - although you seem to have conveniently forgotten Palestine in 1947 with the King David Hotel blown up and young British sergeants kidnapped and hung by Jewish terrorists. No similar acts committed by the NF as far as I know - although after 50 years of provocation some more robust white, Christian retaliation against their tormenters might have been expected. White Christians are not permitted to hate though, the Leftist Mafia ruling the Media only accord that freedom to the real terrorists and their supporters/condoners.

All of which makes your position, and comment, ridiculous.

Yam Yam

The stupidity of this man in burning another religion's holy book is only matched by the immaturity of many of that religion's adherents in rising to the bait.

Frank P

Sean Martin (8.40am)

Now you are waffling. Fear is not what any of the regular contributors to this blog feel (apart from the trolls, who fear we may corrupt the minds of other patriots who have had it up top here). On the contrary, the CH -ers oppose oppressive ideology and ludicrous superstition with vigour and panache.

I have a copy of the Koran, but I won't burn it; it is too useful a document to quote to those who are gulled into believing that Islam is a 'religion of peace.' It is not, as ALL those who practice it know only too well. It is their 'religious duty' to overcome the infidels and restore the Caliphate, by any means necessary, including violence, guile, and downright pretence. As for 'pressured into staying'. Let's be clear. What part of the 1962 Immigration Act demands that they remain here if they don't like our culture or the natives who oppose their ridiculous religious rites and demands. They can fuck off with my full blessing anytime they wish, 1962 legislation notwithstanding. In the meantime if some bewhiskered prick in the Floridian swamps feels like cremating a book - that's his business and nobody else's - provided he didn't steal the book from somebody else in a prior act. Appeasement is despicable. Islamic demands should be met with an iron fist and no velvet glove necessary in the case of opposing these loony murderous bastards. Fear? My arse! Seems to me that it's you that is shitting his pants, lest some Islamic nutter gets offended by the actions of some cranky Septic, thousands of miles away in the Land of the Free.

Frank P

Nicholas

Stand by a for a post from that well Islamic mullah, Moishe Steinberg.

Frank P

PS
Are we still in the Silly Season - or what?

JS

Frank P, you speak in fragrant language, but you certainly make some good sense! Enjoyed your posts....thanks!

Sean Martin

Frank P,

As already stated I wholeheartedly agree with you that we must face Islamism head on. Relativism is a real danger to our political stability and the political elite has been desperately naive not to recognise this.

However if you continue to attribute the malaise of extremism to the whole of Islam then you (by definition) are fearful of the consequences of its propogation.

All religions adapt away from their holy texts (verses) and Islam is no different. Only Wahhabi's hold a literalist interpretation of the Koran (so not even all Islamist's do!) Now extremist groups also do adopt parts of the Koran for their political purpose (Hizb ut-Tahrir with their desire for a Caliphate and political Ummah) but Muslims too recognise the shortcomings of the literal word of the Koran as do Christians with the Old Testament.

I do not fear Islam as I have no reason to fear it. So Frank P, please direct your ire towards the extremists and I applaud your vivacious calls for combatting Islamism. But do not paint all Muslims with the same brush

Jez

I predict it'll go absolutely potty if that guy actually burns that Koran.

It's amazing what Muslims feel is their right to do in others cultures; e.g. the Troops Homecoming insults, the murders (Van Gogh for one instance), the honour killings, the riots, the suicide bombings, building provocative Mosques/'Islamic Centres' next to sites of unequaled terrorist (Islamic) atrocity etc- yet if you are to draw a cartoon.... or burn a book then the leaders of the Western World spasm in condemnation, quoting fear of the inevitable new flood of violence as a reason to silence free speech. In this instance, Free speech in the form of burning a holy book, that i find quite repugnant by the way.... but if Muslims want to do what the hell they want in the West, then let this lunatic fringe Pastor do the same.

But we don't have free speech, equal rights or the governments of our countries even batting an eye lid for us... it's just the other guys.

Just keep watering it down (i apologise if i use a term that idiot Yank used in his interviews)- bit by bit and next thing, you've got another London on your hands.... and let's celebrate 'Hurrah'- if you don't then you're a racist... and you will lose you job, could lose your home and maybe even go to jail.

Better keep quiet then.

It's just absolutely unbelievable what's happening.

Frank P

Sean Martin

You still don't get it, do you?. There is no fear here; no phobia. We do not fear Islam, we recognize it for what it is and wish to stop it in its tracks; militarily, culturally and intellectually. It matters not whether it is a 'religion'; a cult; a political movement or a form of mental derangement (the latter is obviously the best explanation, judging from the behaviour of those who profess it). It is inimical to our country and its heritage and culture. We must resolutely reject it and its rites and laws and ridicule it in every way we can. If we do not, our weak politicians will continue to appease it and grant concessions to its leaders and adherents, who will recognize that weakness and demand even more and yet more submission. If you think that any practicing Muslim does not want his 'religion' to prevail in the West, then you too are seriously deluded.

I have no fear; I do not even fear death as it is just around the corner, anyway. But in the meantime I will not agree to submit to or tolerate an insane form of baneful and baleful bigotry. I do not want my native land to be suborned by it either. Moreover I despise the stupidity of people like you who try to silence people like me because you are afraid of the consequences of stating the obvious - that we are under attack from Islam itself; its extremists, its so called 'moderate' infiltrators, and from the deluded leftists who think that an alliance with Islamic jihad is in their interest pro tem. As for painting all Muslims with the same brush; I do not. They come in many forms and employ many methods - but they do all wish to defeat the 'Infidels' in general and the Jews in particular. You can bury you head in the Arabian sands if you wish; you already have it up your own arse, anyway. But your advice about how I should act and feel in the face of an obvious enemy is neither useful nor wanted. Appeasement of an enemy that has declared its limpid intention is not only stupid, it is despicable.

Watching our elected representatives and our military leaders waving the white flag via the media tonight was nauseating. Then I watched the Film 'United 93' on ITV tonight and was reminded of what I had watched unfold live on television 9 years ago tomorrow; the nausea was replaced by a profound anger and disgust at the craven Crispins who are paid to 'serve and protect' us. Uggghh!

Sean Martin

Frank P,

If the your post was directed only at extremists then I wouls agree with every word.
However I have to come to the conclusion that you are in the unfortunate position of not knowing any Muslims if you honestly think they all desire to see Britain become Islamic.

I do not wish to silence you at all - you are entitled to you opinion - but I am compelled to show you the evidence when you make erroneous claims. You should go and talk to Muslims and read about their history in this country. It is only the extremists (which I share your belief are a growing number owing to our dhimmitude) that wish to overhaul liberal democracy not the majority. I am afraid the evidence points to this assertion - if you reject it you are committing a similar fraud that Creationists do in denying Evolution (granted in this case the evidence cannot be as tangible and damning as Evolution).

So please stay away from mainstream media, actually go out and talk to a lot of Muslims and read around the subject.

Then you can make a valid case for us appeasing extremism under the banner of religion. Then you can rightly point out how we have shied away from confronting a totalitarian theocracy that seeks to undermine democracy.

But if you keep claiming all Muslims are the problem (whether you fear them or not) you lose the intellectual argument and sound (although you probably aren't) bigoted

Patricia Shaw

The Spectator is at one with Fox News in perpetrating Islamophobia. Melanie Phillips's constant scribbles, hosted by the Spectator, are of exactly the same mindset as the rabid reverend.

Admit it Blackburn - the Spectator is part of the problem.

Frank P

Sean Martin

You are being disingenuous; it is because I have known very many Muslims and because I have read copiously about the bloody history of the 'religion' and its propensity for accomplished cunning; its territorial, cultural and economic ambitions, that I oppose it so fiercely. Your definition of a bigot appears to be someone who sticks to his guns and draws a line in the sand when threatened by a multi-faceted enemy. Rather than me not knowing enough Muslims, I suggest that you have known too many who have seen your credulity and exploited it. You too are entitled to your views, but just watch your step when you you accuse people of 'phobias' (unless you happen to be looking in the mirror; then I can recommend a clinic that deals with that condition).

Frank P

Patricia Shaw

I'll bet your haberdasher turns a profit by supplying you with pins destined for your effigy of our Mel. Lighten up! Part of your bitchiness must result from the nightmares you have about her. Where do you keep the effigy - beside your Hamas flag? I can visualise you jabbing in the pins with venom as you recite the shahadah.

Sean Martin

Patricia Shaw,

I would be very careful if I were you about labelling Melanie Phillips in those terms. Say what you like about her but she is fastidious with her work and always has legitimate evidence for her claims.

Frank P,

When I say study history i mean in terms of their time here in Britain (obviously Islam has been at the heart of many conflicts in centuries past).

One becomes a bigot when they dig their guns in the sand despite all the evidence before them that says they should move them. I are always going to agree to differ on this one, but you should read a lot more Muslim commentators and writers before you label them all as advocates of religious subversion.

Patricia Shaw

Frankie - Go to Hollywood.
They do fantasy there way better than you.
You could even learn a thing or two.

booyaka

Soon to make news headlines

Inspired by Mr Jones, pastor of the Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, USA, thousands of people around the globe have anonymously burnt copies of the Islamic holy book, the Koran, and left them in conspicuous places to be found. Ironically, for some, this is essentially an act of terrorism against the muslim world.

Pros and Cons?

Will this result in the demystification of the holy book and change the world for those who are indoctrinated with it's "worth more than someone else's life" value?

Patricia Shaw

Sean -

I remember well 'Fastidious Phillips' eulogies of Sarah Palin. Her rounded praise of fellow Zionist Michael Gove, the day he was found to have diddled his expenses. The balanced nuance with which she expresses her reservations about anyone critical of the Israel Right and the measured response with which she greets Israeli provocation and aggression.

I think you underate the work of the truly skilled propagandist.

Frank P

Sean Martin

Listen up cocker - not only have I read British history, more importantly I have been part of it for the last 77 fucking yonks and don't need a lecture on it by someone who obviously (judging by his remarks) has no empirical knowledge of what this country was like before WWII, during WWII, during the immediate aftermath of WWII, during the Cold War and throughout the concomitant Muslim incursion (in all its jihadist and covert cultural forms). Get some in! Those who profess peaceful desires during a war of attrition are much more dangerous than the militant enemy; because they disarm the gullible. You are quite clearly three parts Dhimmi already.

Moreover (and back to your suggestion that I need to be brainwashed) during my 77 years or so on this volatile crap-heap that is our prison, I developed an internal bullshit detector that is probably second to none. I therefore sadly have to report that as I have read your posts, thought it has not yet reached the zenith on its scale, you are a front runner as far as the blogs are concerned. Patricia pips you by a couple of degrees, even though her posts are much shorter than yours. It's her concentrated propaganda that is powerful - and rancid.

Frank P

Btw Johnnie, I dunno why we are still pursuing this; I see the bewhiskered Floridian nutter has chickened out after a couple of visits from the Feds. They can be almost as persuasive as the moderate Muzzies; and equally devious. And I've met and worked with a few of those, too.

Frank P

Update:

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/koran-burning-jones-cancelled/2010/09/09/id/369756?s=al&promo_code=AB39-1

Patricia Shaw

Frankie - Upate

www.nhs.uk/hypertension/Whoisatrisk

Do try and rest.

Sean Martin

Frank P,

I understand the historical precedent of not combatting totalitarianism - hence why I share your desperation to clash with Islamism. But I will not accept that all Muslims wish to Islamify Britain as that is just plain false

Nicholas

Patricia Shaw El-Zatmah (of Palestinian Mothers) writes:- "The Spectator is at one with Fox News in perpetrating Islamophobia. Melanie Phillips's constant scribbles, hosted by the Spectator, are of exactly the same mindset as the rabid reverend.

Admit it Blackburn - the Spectator is part of the problem."

What problem is that then? The 50 years of Islamic terror unleashed across the world or the response to it? If some are guilty of "perpetrating Islamophobia" what's the phobia that describes the rabid hatred of the West and the interpretation of a religion that motivates the murder of thousands of innocent people?

In any case phobia implies an irrational fear. Nothing irrational about fearing all the hi-jackings, all the beheadings and all the bombs. Innocent people all over the world are terrorised and murdered in the name of that religion and you dare to call it a phobia. Were those murdered on 9/11 and their families and friends phobic about what was done and why it was done? Shame on you! The Spectator might scribble but it hasn't sawn anyone's head off live on video yet.

Frank P

Nicholas

"The Spectator might scribble. but it hasn't sawn anyone's head off live on video yet."

I dunno - you just sawed Trish off at the knees and it's on the Speccie blog for all to see. Brutal!

Johnnie

" ... But I will not accept that all Muslims wish to Islamify Britain, as that is just plain false."

The first half of your sentence is plainly true. The second half is an opinion. Give me ten minutes with any one of your Islamic adherents and I'd get a cough out of them; they, like Obama, are committed to 'fundamental change of the West'. If not they are apostates.

Islam isn't about the gullible souls who jump to the call of the Muezzin. It is about the power structure that propagates and proselytises in order to gain power, wealth. and territory - the mullahs and their minders. Just like most other religions: vide Il Papa and his junket to the UK next week in an attempt to launder the semen stains from the reputation of his priesthood; wicked homosexual bastards. A plague on all their temples and mosques. Ecrasez l'infame!

Pot head (who is by no means my cup of tea) linked to Pat Condell above. I recommend the link for those who think any religion is about saving souls. We borrow our souls from the Sorry Scheme of Things Entire and it is to the SSOTE that they return when we're through with 'em - usually too soiled for second hand use. And there's no cash for clunkers in that deal.

Baron

Nicholas @ 4.07:

good stuff, what probably hasn’t occurred to the one who walks on water and the other appeaseniks is this. By giving up again and again to the shouters, we are more likely to get hit: in our culture being reasonable is a sign of strength, in theirs it’s a sign of weakness.

and another thing: you wasting your time talking to Patricia Shaw, no substantive argument from her, just labeling and abuse, the woman’s just an unnecessary burden on the world’s oxygen consumption, leave her to talk to plankton.

Frank P @ 2.22:

what would you say if I suggested to you that the vast majority of Muslims who have emigrated from the lands of sharia and stuff to the West did so because they wanted to escape to a world underpinned by a different belief system?

and since you’ve asked why haven’t they come out condemning boldly those who strap bombs to their bodies, or those who shout and hold placards ‘kill the infidels’, I’ll tell you. In part, they are as scared of the zealots as are many of us, they live amongst them, they have greater affinity with them than with us, it’s the faith that binds them. Also, they feel angered being put in the same basket as the bomb carriers and infidel bashers.

am a great believer in the strength of the indigenous British unwashed, and in particular of its, currently politically impotent, healthy core. In spite of the daily diet of narcissism, debauchery, perversion, mendacity served by the MSM and the BBC, the healthy core keeps molding the incomers, patiently, calmly, effectively, and largely out of sight. Provided the inflow of the worshipers of Allah doesn’t turn into a tsunami, given time, the country won’t change much from what the change would have been without the Allah worshippers. You reckon I wrong?

Frank P

Baron

Yours is an interesting proposition; that our indigenous culture has more to offer than the oppression, superstition and violence of Islam and that the Muslim immigrants will therefore assimilate into, rather than suborn, the native culture (as happened over the centuries until the 1950s/1960s)? Recent events would detract against that theory, imho. You seem to discount the deliberate destruction, over half a century or so, of our culture and heritage; the ceding of sovereignty to Brussels; the corruption and deliberate induced chaos of our education system; the politicizing of our police forces and the enforcement of multicultural politicies brought about by both overt and covert social engineering inspired by Gramsci and his disciples.

'Political correctness' (aka suppression of free speech and action) is one of their tools and it has been extremely successful in undermining two generations of the English stock (I'll let the Celts speak for themselves- they are very good at that, unlike the English nowadays).

It may be that the Asians who came to Britain in the 50/60s era were escaping from the heel of their oppressive religion, indeed many of them fought for the allies during the war. But the second generation has been got at; given victim status by agitprop. Add to that the hedonism that has also been encouraged by the assault (from the Sixties onwards) on all the mores that molded the Britons who stood up to Hitler and we have a profound problem. Hatred of the West has been pumped into British born children of Muslim immigrants by the Imams of the ever increasing numbers of mosques around the country – seething hotbeds of subversion; they have therefore turned inwards and are plotting to introduce Sharia law by stealth and supplant the indigenous Judea-Christian culture - on two fronts: violent jihad and demographic creep. Many provincial cities are already goners. London under the stewardship of the multi-culti TV comedian-cum-pantomime Mayor is almost a goner. Another term in office should complete the rout. What's to be optimistic about, Baron? Our underclass is welfare dependant and the welfare system is also being raped by immigrants both legal and illegal, because as Andrew Neather let slip, it was government policy for thirteen of the last 13 and half years to foster immigration for electoral purposes and 'rub the Tories noses in it'. So though I admire you optimism, I cannot share it - sadly, particularly as the coalition under Cameron is unlikely to change the general drift regarding immigration.

As for the United States of America – unless they rid themselves of the Obama cult soonest, we are all fucked anyway; our dinghy is hooked to their sinking ship. It is true that Obama’s façade has slipped and his rhetoric sounds increasingly hollow, but the GOP have not got their act together. A ‘hung’ government (like ours) over there would weaken the West even more, two years of a stymied House before the Presidential election would be toxic. The Islamic Mafia Dons must be salivating. Then there is the unwillingness of Western Leaders to confront Iran’s incipient nukes? You asked me a short question. Sorry about the length of the answer. Hope it doesn’t depress you. You are such a cheerful soul and I enjoy your posts.

JS

Frank P
September 11th, 2010 12:47am

Excellent post.

alysonmably

tery jones is a extremist nutter and a attention seeker,as for his views on the cultural centre of islam near ground zero,what about the ira when they had their agenda for a catholic united ireland they were busy blowing up british people and soldiers in britain the british goverment never introduced a ban on catholic churches being built in irish communities in britain ,and was not the usa happy to fund the ira who then launched there terrorism on the streets of britain just like irish catholics had there extremists following a perverse false belief in their teachings so too will some muslims do the same its the actions of men that are evil not a faith ,muslims too died on 9/11,why should entire religion get the blame for a few rotten apples ,this never happened to the catholics

AY

Paul Weston, Nicholas, Frank P, Baron, Verity

Thanks for your posts, enjoyed it.

I have one practical question. For a while, I was trying to find a website where one could find non-politicized up-to-date news. Like google, but it is now monstrously biased. Other websites are also infiltrated, and/or full of advertising garbage, and/or too mediocre in writing. If you know something decent, could you please post. The europenews.dk site is mostly on Islam in Europe, but slow on recent events, and doesn't cover other news.

Hadrian

As Christians we have had to witness to Bibles being burned on stage, Christ humiliated on screen and stage. One hears NOT a cheap of condemnation from the 'great and the good'. Indeed it is those Christians who are courageous enough to respond by persusaive protest who are denigrated on these occasions.
Thus perhaps when one sees a bit of balance from our leaders on these matters will one say this proposal ( however infantile) is 'disrespectful and disgraceful', yo use Hilary Clinton's nippy words.
As for Islam's 'purer' form being benignly 'moderate' you really are under strong delusion if you imagine it compatible with civil liberty as enjoyed in the Christian West. Its internal mechanisms, coherently followed, all tend to intolerant tyrany. Its compulsion is self righteousness and taken seriously it is ferocious in its pursuit of that goal. The curbing doctrines of fallenness, sin and forebearance and salvation 'extra nos' are absent from it. Thus the fanaticism.

Baron

YA at 9.20:

you may be searching for the impossible, my blogging friend, the nature of the internet beast doesn’t allow for pure objectivity, if ever there was such an ideal state of information flow. Scanning a number of sites, relying on the filtering capacity of one’s brain may be the best answer.

Frank P @ 12.47:

sorry for responding late, life has interfered, you know.

there ain’t much in the lament I would deprecate from but for one thing - the imbecility of moral equivalence, the daftness of PC and the rest of what you so powerfully shout about has bugger all to do with those who worship Allah. They haven’t come up with any of the crap, the Muslim zealots and the shouters have merely latched on to it. The fault for the mess of the enlightened take – all cultures are equal but the Western culture stinks - lies squarely with us, we’ve allowed the intellectual elites to hoist it on us.

who knows, more of the same idiocy may still hit us, I however, stick to my assertion. The indigenous healthy core will prove victorious, not only because it’s underpinned by the integrity and toughness of a DNA strain of this island race, the centuries of its maturing into a model worth replicating, but because it cannot be otherwise.

nothing’s ideal in this world, no car, no ice-cream, no human construct. Some of our stabs at it, however, get closer to the ideal than others. The old England you and I miss got pretty close to the ideal of human interactions, societal cohesion and stuff because it’s a construct that must be desired, dreamed of, aspired to by every sane, sensible, civilised human being.
Not only an optimist would figure from just looking around for a couple of days that the vast majority of the Western Muslim unwashed are sane, sensible, civilised human beings albeit with boils, warts and whatever one finds in other cultures, races, ethnic, religious groups.

Frank P

Baron

You are clearly an incurable optimist. My problem is that I can't make up my mind whether that admirable determination is what has facilitated humanity's survival, or whether it is the reason we are so deeply in the shit. And of course you and I will never resolve that question as nature has ensured, through the limited time span of individual human existence, that we shall remain mostly ignorant of almost everything that exists both inside and outside our conceivable universe. So WTF does it matter, anyway?
EDABMFTWD! ... regardless.

Baron

Frank P @ 12.16:

spot on, totally with you on this, which slots us, if I may say so, into a privileged group of men for as Socrates had it ‘I know that I’m intelligent because I know that I know nothing’.

MairT

>FrankP

I come to this blog simply to read your comments. You give me hope that there is still some rational people in this country