In or out?

strapworld

Referendum Yes. Out Yes.

B U T. Dan Hannan excepted I am quite concerned about others involved in this campaign. Is it, I wonder, funded by the dreaded EU? Stranger things have happened!

libertarian

Referendum Yes Out Yes

Seems to be funded by ex UKIP leader Pearson

Rhoda Klapp

I'm sure we will be leaving right after the restoration of democracy. I am not holding my breath. There is no way on earth that the establishment would lose so much control of the agenda as to put an iconic belief up to the vagaries of chance. Bastards.

Ben G

Can we also have a Hannan referendum; in or out?

I'm out.

Dilettante

Referendum: No
Out: No

I don't believe in direct democracy and I believe in the European Union. Nationalism must be resisted and overcome.

liz elliot pyle

I would much rather have a referendum on In/Out of the EU than the waste of time on a referendum on AV. |Apparently the referendum we ARE being offered is going to cost 80 million quid. What a complete wast of money!! Lets decide first who actually rules this country, before we tinker around at the edges of voting reform.
GIVE US THE REFERENDUM you all promised us - you lying bastards.

Anthony

Yes. And I'd probably vote "Out". But I suspect that when the public at large was actually faced with putting a cross in one of the boxes, there'd be a majority for staying in, if a fairly narrow one.

Cuffleyburgers

No readers of comment threads will be surprised to read that I have signed up, even though like Strapworld I have half a idea that this is a plant by the EU to identify the IP addresses of all opponents of integration so we can be safely registered on a database for regular e-surveillance and possible future nastiness.

Paranoid? Well you read it here first - experience has shown repeatedly that regarding EU activities, the most paranoid rantings usually turn out to be underestimates.

I well remember the Economist after the Dutch and French referendums commenting that that was that for the constitution and implying that Merkel's efforts to revive it were doomed to failure... not or after the first Irish - they'd never dare to have another ? und so weiter ad infinitum.

I am undoubtedly exaggerating when I say it is hard to see how it can end without violence - but...

Forza Dan

David Ossitt

“Europe is almost certainly one of those areas where the Westminster consensus is divorced from public opinion – and a reckoning could well be overdue”

One of those areas indeed, but the list is a long one, and most of the following could be included on that list.

Capital punishment, corporal punishment, illegal immigration, soft sentencing, namby-pamby handling of ethnic minorities, corrupt voting practices, silly extradition laws, the human rights act, current MP’s expenses (since the so called changes), the apparent reluctance to bring charges of theft and embezzlement to crooked MPs and Peers and our inability to rid our country of nasty criminals lest it effects their human rights or because the might suffer punishment if returned home.

The list is long.

RKing

Has there ever been a survey to actually evaluate our EU membership financially? And I mean the financial benefits to us the public.

I would love a vote but I would also like to know the advantages/disadvantages. I personally would vote against it on integration grounds. I don't think this country has been improved socially by opening the flood gates to so many nations. We are losing our identity and our services just cannot take much more.

Chris Rose

It's certainly time we had a referendum. One way or the other it would help to clear the air over Europe and help us to decide how we want to continue. For far too long, we have trundled reluctantly along on a diet Euro-fudge.

For a long time (since 1961), I have been keen for us to develop our ties with our European neighbours, but the EU has turned into an abomination which undermines the democracy of the member states. I no longer think it can be reformed and so I want Britain to leave it.

Rhoda Klapp

Dilettaante obviously does not believe in indirect democracy either, for we all voted for pro-referendum parties before we were betrayed. Which leaves Dilettante's say-so as the criterion by which we are to abandon our nationhood for..what exactly? World government, in the end? Those who are for that, even if it is an honourable aim, really ought to get the rest of us to agree first. Or are we not to be trusted with important issues? Eloi bastards.

Nicholas Hallam

"Europe is almost certainly one of those areas where the Westminster consensus is divorced from public opinion – and a reckoning could well be overdue."

And, quite by coincidence, it is also one those areas where the interests of the political classes are least aligned with those of the people they serve.

Vulture

The EU is the utter negation of democracy and an increasingly sinister organisation.

It is incompatible with the existence of a nation with any pretence to freedom or independence.

For the sake of all our liberties, our prosperity and our justice we must go.

I have signed up to the referendum and I want out.

John Richardson

In my opinion The British People should decide their own destiny; that is what so many died to ensure.

However, the parasitic and treacherous political class will not allow self determination.
They have infested the institutions of our democratic state and hijacked the democratic process.

Therefore, we should hijack 'their' poliical class referendum.

We should write 'Give us a vote on Europe' on the 'AV referendum' papers.

These would have to recorded as 'Spoilt'.
It is possible therefore that 'Spoilt' could actually outnumber 'Yes' or 'No'. I feel sure 'Spoilt' could number a significant percentage.

Then either we get our referndum or the parasitic and treacherous political class are revealed for who they are.

Dilettante

Of course I support parties wimping out of bad pledges - like indulging in direct democracy only when it suits them.

And yes, world government is the obvious ideal end point: a planet of liberated individuals free from nationalist ideologies that fetishise our divisions.

Liz Brown

Definitely OUT but too much democracy for our leaders so no hope of being given a say.................

Simon Stephenson

I wonder whether Dilettante is able to tell how he would feel about direct democracy if there were a majority of the population wishing to stay in the EU, but a Parliament in favour of coming out?

No answer containing the word hypothetical is acceptable.

Think This

Referendum: No
Out: Yes

Why waste money on a referendum. Simply say 'if we are elected we will undertake measures to leave the European Union and renegotiate or position based on fair trade' A referendum can be lost and then we'll never be able to leave.

As a localist (the individual being the best form of localism) the EU is an a rampant monster in which countries can simply force policies upon one another despite the entire country objecting. The CAP and CFP are disastrous, costing billions, raising food prices, destroying the lives of millions of Africans and generally being an economically illiterate disaster (much like the Euro). Why are we paying to be in an institution which makes us poorer, is not in out national interest and which seems policies set out by other countries to deliberately destroy British institutions like the city.

If you gave me one political wish it would be to leave the EU, so lets hurry up and do it already.

TGF UKIP

Of course it should be yes to the referendum and yes to "out" but no one will be working harder or lying more than Dave to ensure that neither happens. Indeed, he'll be working just as hard and dissembling just as much as he will to obtain a yes to the AV vote.

zurga

They have got us to this point in EU by lies, broken promises, and lots of tricks. Should we meekly accept being cheated? Certainly not. We have been sold faulty goods by dishonest salesmen. We should take it back. So Referendum? Certainly YES. In or out? OUT must be the opening negotiating position. I don't believe they would force us out if they realize we mean business, backed by a national referendum. But, if they wish to cut off their noses to spite their faces, then so be it. I wish to be governed by a British Government, even if that Government turns out to be as dismal as Gordon Brown.

TGF UKIP

Pity the sign up website doesn't appear to be working properly.

HFC

I would like to hear more from Dilettante: by what process will the 'ideal' world government of liberated people be appointed.

Drawing lots, perhaps?

wrinkled weasel

Referendum: Yes. Out: Yes

The argument against perpetual resort to referenda is that the mob will vote to bring back hanging if you gave them the opportunity.

The danger here is precedent; that we as individuals have devolved hegemony to such an extent that some unelected mystery person in another country can order our arrest, on no evidence, or determine how our food is packaged. I have difficulty in accepting the degree of control our own government has over us, let alone people I have no democratic mandate for.

Out, Out, OUT!

David Ossitt

Dilettante

“Referendum: No
Out: No
I don't believe in direct democracy and I believe in the European Union. Nationalism must be resisted and overcome.”

Well you certainly are living up to your nom de plume, if you truly do not belive in democracy you are on the wrong website.

I have now read your second post, I can now see that you are a nutter.

Ian C

Happy as an in or out referendum would make lots of people, in reality it should not happen until and unless a British Government gets serious and vociferous about ensuring that a decent programme of reform of Brussels and what the EU does is on the agenda.

From we sceptics point of view this would also provide an insurance policy should the expected 'out' vote not materialise. With a popular British Gov't threatening the EU with that we can get a better result than where we are now, either way. An each way bet.

But the Government needs to get both serious about kicking Europe around and more popular before this play can be made. The two obviously, to us, go hand in hand and cameron nees to be made to see this.

Hannan could be working on that as his real agenda.

Baron

get used to it, boys and girls, we’ve already become but a region of Europe implementing a project that will implode only when bankrupt as did the USSR. Shouting will not help, in May you should have voted for a party that was serious about Europe.

Michael St George

Referendum? YES

In or Out? OUT, OUT, OUT

And regarding David Ossit's comment on the anti-democratic outpourings of Dilettante: " I have now read your second post, I can now see that you are a nutter", one should add "Or a member of the Green Party"

alexsandr

most people dont want out. they just dont want nay more integration.
THAT should be the question.

Frank Sutton

Dilettante -
You are in fact Baroness Ashton, and I claim my prize (and don't try fobbing me with Drachmas, either!)

JohnBUK

Dilettante, it's not Nationalism that's the danger - try Religion!

John Findlater

Referendum YES Out of europe YES, I,ve e-mailed the link to 65 freinds and relations,,if everybody does the same the registrations will mount up.
So sign up and get e-mailing,, after all people can do this in a few seconds,, no need for them to miss important things like Corrie or Enders or get off their bums and demonstrate.

To those who say the politicians wont do anything about it, well time to do something about them,,like hang a few from the lamposts,,that would get their attention.

The IRA got their way through bullet and bomb,,,maybe that is the only thing the political establishment understands.

Archie

Referendum? Of course! Out? No question! How much notice will the Establishment take of Dan Hannan? Not a scintilla, to their eternal shame!

JohnPage

I have half a idea that this is a plant by the EU to identify the IP addresses of all opponents of integration

That's going to work well with those who have dynamic addresses....

Richard North has a chart showing the level of trust in the EU in different member countries. It's way lower here than anywhere else - and the second lowest is Germany, the main paymaster.

Daedalus

Referendum Yes. Out Yes. BUT it depends on what out means, I would still want to be able to trade fully with no restrictions.

Daedalus

wrinkled weasel

Daed, old bean, if you were as old as me you may recall that in 1974, we were invited to join the "Common Market", a sort of one up from EFTA. Not a bad idea, but they went on to take the piss.

anextoryvoter

I signed immediately, my answers are yes and yes

@ Dilettante "And yes, world government is the obvious ideal end point: a planet of liberated individuals free from nationalist ideologies that fetishise our divisions"

You, like many before you make the mistake of assuming that because you support it's creation you will be free and will flourish under such a regime. You are misguided. Should your desired global government ever achieve power you will travel the same well worn path to an early grave as I will. You may survive a little longer than me, but your demise at the hands of your chosen rulers is just as certain as mine. The dictum "absolute power corrupts absolutely" is unchanged throughout human history. The only thing that keeps governments in check is the knowledge that their citizens can observe and measure them against alternatives and can also choose to reside elsewhere if necessary for the safety or prosperity of themselves and their family. Global government removes that essential comparison and that freedom of movement. Net result slavery.
The only hope is that intelligent and articulate individuals like Daniel Hannan achieve their aim of imposing the democratic brake on this insanity.

J

Referendum: Yes. Out: Yes, regardless of the result.

In2minds

Yes, leave the EU and soon

Marcher Baron

Referendum? Absolutely! In or Out? Unquestionably out. I voted for a common market in the 70s (I was lied to), not a United States of Europe. I want my vote back! If Ireland can vote twice, so should we.

philip riley

Referendum yes, out yes. I voted for the EEC in 1974, but I never voted for the United States of Europe.

Lee Jakeman

Referendum: Yes. Out: Yes.

Mike and Walter

Referendum Yes Out No
Just watch the EU goodies coming the UK's way if it knows a referendum has to be run. Lost rebates, changes to CAP, downgrading of bank regaultion. And maybe we should take a tilt at Strasbourg as well.

Roy Smith

Daniel Hannan is indeed a flame in the darkest night. If he can embarrass the government into some sort of action, he will have done wonders. Their doesn't appear to be any sign the leadership have a coherent philosophic policy that can bring about any robust enlivening of the economy, whether a referendum be yes or no.

Norman Dee

The question's too easy, therefore the result can be manipulated, shock horror ! you say how can yes or non be manipulated ? But you also know that it can and will be. Europe has gone too far down the road to easily stop, it's already risky getting off at the speed it is going, but the closer you get to the tragic ending at the waterfall the faster the current will get. So now while we still can, join with Norway, I will have a small wager that Holland will see this as an out for them as well, and maybe Denmark and Sweden after that. But it must happen soon or it will be too late
So yes to Referendum and yes to Out.
They need us more than we need them.

EyeSee

It is not so much popularity, although at root that is the essence of a democratic society, but principle. Britain being part of a project to bring all of Europe under the hegemony of a small cabal of unelected bureaucrats is monstrous enough, but that the politicians who signed up to it and those who continue to adopt EU rules, have and are acting illegally is the real issue. They do not have the power (authority) to do so. By consistently lying about it they have effectively hidden the drastic and fundamental changes being introduced to the British way of life. The policeman imprisoned for throwing a woman to the floor in a cell is just unlucky in that the state he has been led to believe he operates in, the EU, isn't quite complete yet.

The UK would be substantially better off out of the EU too and the EU would be weakened beyond any measure they would care to admit, without Britain. Politically though, we make no difference, though the French were always terrified that our joining would be another Waterloo for their dreams of conquering Europe, with this project rather than the wars they continually thrust on Europe by constant argument with Germany. No, state before the people is only strange to the British, historically.

Actually, the more you consider the notion, the clearer it becomes that there is not a single negative to leaving the EU, completely and immediately. Who knows, politicians here might become more British and we might see proper government again, lost now for almost a generation. If we had one gift to give to Europe, that would make it a better place it was our law. Instead we have to have their much inferior model and the gift we gave was our economy and our subservience. Yes, Rule Britannia may seem embarrassing and anachronistic to 'progressive liberals' like Mandelson and Blair, but we have seen what useless chumps those pair are in practice. They are representative of a pampered class who think too much and understand little.

DaveL

Referendum: Yes. It seems appropriate/cheaper to have multiple referenda on the same day.
Out: Yes, most definitely

I'm writing to my MP to see if he'll join the cause.

Although we import and export slightly more to EU countries (£280b v £240b for 2009), trade with non-EU countries is growing twice as quickly (16.5% v 33% for June exports, 14.7% v 28.4% for June imports)

AndyLeeds

A referendum would be welcome, and I think the result would probably be 'Out'. The EU is yesterdays answer to a question asked the week before. In its unaccountability it is more and more taking on the persona of a Fascist State. It is time we the people - not just in the UK, but across the whole EU - took our rights and liberties back. The only way to do this is to take an axe to the EU.

A Williams

The more direct democracy the better in my view, our middle-men MPs are far too self-serving. We could also do with directly electing our PM and let him or her select their cabinet from the country as a whole rather than from the Commons and Lords.

I am totally in favour of an In/Out referendum and I would vote for Out.

HFC

A history lesson:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4609131.stm

It was the duplicitous Heath who took us into the European Economic Community and a coalition (yes!) of Tory and Labour europhiles who conned the public into voting 'yes' in 1975.

Will we ever learn?

HFC

OOops. I forgot to remind you that the duplicitous Blair announced in 2004 that there would be a referendum on continued EU membership.

oldtimer

Like others I voted in favour of joining the EU. However it has changed beyond recognition in the past 30+ years. It is time for a reassessment. Continuation on the present course will end in tears. I am a Yes + Yes voter.

Rhoda Klapp

Anyone seen my last post? Surely not objectionable? Finger trouble? Maybe.

Daniel1979

Referendum? - Yes Please

In or Out of the EU - Out

In or Out of EFTA - In

In or Out of Council of Europe - In, but we need more focus and scrutiny to what is going on.

In or Our Eurovision Song Contest - Easy. Out.

Charlie the Chump

Referendum: YES
In or Out: OUT

Simples!

Yam Yam

Referendum: Yes.
In or Out: After thirty years of having the scales painfully plucked from my eyes, I now say unequivocally: OUT!

Osred

Referendum - Yes

Out - Yes

denis cooper

Yes to EU referendum, yes to getting out of the EU ASAP, and no I'm not at all worried about the EU getting my IP address because they could have done that long ago if they wanted, and in any case they'd come for the likes of Farage long before they'd come for me.

And on the referendum we'll actually have next May, I'll vote for AV because I think that it'll certainly do no harm to newer and smaller parties and it has the potential to do them a small but significant amount of good.

fred Bishop

Hannan is playing about with side issues. Why not address the real elephant in the room? Justice for the people of England. Why not a referendum on an English parliament. Once established we could sort out our EU troubles.

maddy1

If they can get Turkey in to the EU. there would be no limit to their power and ruthless undemocratic ambitions.